plone vs drupal at Greenpeace UK

[Jon Stahl]

Duane-

Wow, this is all very exciting stuff.  Thanks for sharing.  It is
extremely energizing to know that others are working hard on important
problems like this.

ONE/Northwest is definitely interested in figuring out how to plug in
after we enjoy the first half of our summer. ;-)  We'd be especially
interested in helping to test-drive the online petition/activism tool,
and will undoubtedly download the tarball ASAP.

It's a fine line between promoting vaporware and getting people involved
early enough to make a difference/avoid duplication.  I'd say you're
well on the right side of things.

best,
jon

PS I hope you're starting to think about which of these things you might
have ready to present at the Plone Conference in October. ;-)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Duane Raymond
> Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 11:46 AM
> To: A list for NGOs (Non-Governmental Organizations) using Plone.
> Subject: [NGO] Activism Tools
>
> Warning: long email - only read if interested in activism
> tools for Plone
>
> > I'd *love* to hear more about what you've got in the pipeline, and
> > what if anything we can do to accelerate release/adoption.
>
> Well - you asked for it :-)
>
> Thanks to a little push by Jon, Martin and Sisi - here is
> some more information about the activism tools FairSay has
> developed (but not formally released yet) or is working on.
>
> 1) Activator Product
> - Allows the configuration of letter actions and petitions +
> other action
>   types if you are creative (most actions are generally variations on
>   these two types)
>
> - Developed for GCAP ( www.whiteband.org ) and in production
> use for 12 months
>   (no actions are currently live there)
>
> - Features include:
>   - Configurable action form fields and layout
>   - Ensures thank-you pages and thank-you emails (both good from
> cross-promotion)
>   - Data download in CSV format
>   - Basic statistics including ability to display live action
> count on any page
>     (local or remote)
>   - Super duper tracking so you know where people taking
> actions have come from
>   - Can 'syndicate' action page/form (don't confuse with RSS)
> so others can host
>     it on their sites but it is all stored in the same place.
>
> - Conceptually it works on the basis that 'Campaigns' contain
> one or more
>   'Actions' that consist of one or more 'Action Editions'.  
> It is the 'Action
>    Editions' which you actually configure.
>
> We haven't yet put together all the necessary elements for an
> open source release (documentation, issue tracker, open svn,
> etc.) and won't have until the end of August (due to client
> work taking precedence) - however Friends of the Earth International
> (Sisi) and Netherlands (Paul) have tentatively agreed to help
> test and document it towards that end - and now Jon, Martin
> seem willing to chip in as well :-)
>
> So - anyone who wants to play with it can get it from:
> http://www.fairsay.com/static/eCampaigning018.zip
> (this is a temporary location so don't link to it or it will
> break in 1-2 months) We've still to determine the best
> license to release it under - but it will be something like
> LGPL or GPL (or equivalent).
>
> I've had preliminary conversations with Friends of the Earth
> International & FoE Netherlands (Milieudefensie) about them
> investing some time in both testing/documentation and in
> actual development - plus the suggestion that if a number of
> organisations want to contribute budget then a developer
> could work on further improving this product.
>
> If anyone else wants to help improve this product, we'd be
> excited to work with you.
>
>
> OTHER PROJECTS
> (aka vapourware until we have a working product but extensive
> work has gone into these):
>
> 1) Mobiliser:
> A tool for NGO to enable their supporters to organise and
> connect locally to each other by identifying those closest'
> to each other (similar to Meetup or Greenpeace's Melt project
> http://melt.staging.greenpeace.org/ ) (70% to first release)
>
> 2) GeoRosetta:
> The global dataset (for Mobiliser) of countries, regions and
> cities with longitude and latitude in multiple languages.  
> This data already exists out there - but with horrible
> duplications, errors, gaps, etc. so this is an attempt to
> 'structure' and clean it.  Plus it add an Ajax client using a
> RESTful approach to navigate the hierarchy of data in xml
> files on a file system (for maximum scalability).  Could be
> VERY useful for other applications that need to be
> geo-location aware. (similar to http://www.geonames.org/ 
> which we didn't know of when we started) (70% to first
> release).  Greenpeace is already using a pre-release of the
> GeoRosetta data for their Melt project.
>
> 3) Campaigning Benchmarking System:
> A system for collecting data on a range of campaigns /
> campaign actions and comparing these results vs. other
> campaigns / campaign actions.  This is currently in an early
> phase and initially it will simply collect and archive
> campaigning emails and actions so they can be 'mined' for
> good ideas, what was done when, who is doing what, etc. ( 1%
> of system vision, 90% of first 'archival' element)
>
> So to paraphrase Jon - I have now "decloaked".
>
> No technical progress on any of these will happen from
> FairSay's side during July due to Petri (FairSay's Technical
> Director) enjoying the summer (as we all should for those in
> the northern hemisphere).
>
> However during July I'll have some time to work on:
> 1) Discussing ways to collaborate on one or more of these projects
> 2) Documenting and collecting issues on the 'pre-release' of
> the eCampaigning project
> 3) Maybe (if 1 & 2 give me time) continue to work on GeoRosetta.
>
> So - Jon, Martin, Sisi, Paul, others - if you want to talk
> about any of these more - let me know (Note: I am offline
> from June 30 - July 10)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Duane
>
> PS - I normally hesitate to promote these things until they
> are released so I can deliver what I promise when I promise
> it (I hate vaporware) - and that is determoned by either a
> client driving it or enough free time to advance it.
>
> ===========================================================
> Duane Raymond
> FairSay
> [phone]
> http://www.fairsay.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NGO mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo
>

_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo

[AHatton]

Hi Duane,

Le me know when Petri is back on things, as Duncan was interested in having another Peer programming session with him.
We can follow up offline.


Andrew

"Duane Raymond" <[hidden email]> Sent by: [hidden email] 27/06/2006 19:46 Please respond to duane.raymond; Please respond to "A list for NGOs \(Non-Governmental Organizations\) using Plone."         Size :11 Kb

To:        "A list for NGOs \(Non-Governmental Organizations\) using Plone." <[hidden email]>         cc:                 Subject:        [NGO] Activism Tools

Warning: long email - only read if interested in activism tools
for Plone

> I'd *love* to hear more about what you've got in the pipeline,
> and what if anything we can do to accelerate release/adoption.

Well - you asked for it :-)

Thanks to a little push by Jon, Martin and Sisi - here is some
more information about the activism tools FairSay has developed
(but not formally released yet) or is working on.

1) Activator Product
- Allows the configuration of letter actions and petitions +
other action
 types if you are creative (most actions are generally
variations on
 these two types)

- Developed for GCAP ( www.whiteband.org ) and in production use
for 12 months
 (no actions are currently live there)

- Features include:
 - Configurable action form fields and layout
 - Ensures thank-you pages and thank-you emails (both good from
cross-promotion)
 - Data download in CSV format
 - Basic statistics including ability to display live action
count on any page
   (local or remote)
 - Super duper tracking so you know where people taking actions
have come from
 - Can 'syndicate' action page/form (don't confuse with RSS) so
others can host
   it on their sites but it is all stored in the same place.

- Conceptually it works on the basis that 'Campaigns' contain one
or more
 'Actions' that consist of one or more 'Action Editions'.  It is
the 'Action
  Editions' which you actually configure.

We haven't yet put together all the necessary elements for an
open source release (documentation, issue tracker, open svn,
etc.) and won't have until the end of August (due to client work
taking precedence) - however Friends of the Earth International
(Sisi) and Netherlands (Paul) have tentatively agreed to help
test and document it towards that end - and now Jon, Martin seem
willing to chip in as well :-)

So - anyone who wants to play with it can get it from:
http://www.fairsay.com/static/eCampaigning018.zip
(this is a temporary location so don't link to it or it will
break in 1-2 months) We've still to determine the best license to
release it under - but it will be something like LGPL or GPL (or
equivalent).

I've had preliminary conversations with Friends of the Earth
International & FoE Netherlands (Milieudefensie) about them
investing some time in both testing/documentation and in actual
development - plus the suggestion that if a number of
organisations want to contribute budget then a developer could
work on further improving this product.

If anyone else wants to help improve this product, we'd be
excited to work with you.


OTHER PROJECTS
(aka vapourware until we have a working product but extensive
work has gone into these):

1) Mobiliser:
A tool for NGO to enable their supporters to organise and connect
locally to each other by identifying those closest' to each other
(similar to Meetup or Greenpeace's Melt project
http://melt.staging.greenpeace.org/ ) (70% to first release)

2) GeoRosetta:
The global dataset (for Mobiliser) of countries, regions and
cities with longitude and latitude in multiple languages.  This
data already exists out there - but with horrible duplications,
errors, gaps, etc. so this is an attempt to 'structure' and clean
it.  Plus it add an Ajax client using a RESTful approach to
navigate the hierarchy of data in xml files on a file system (for
maximum scalability).  Could be VERY useful for other
applications that need to be geo-location aware. (similar to
http://www.geonames.org/ which we didn't know of when we started)
(70% to first release).  Greenpeace is already using a
pre-release of the GeoRosetta data for their Melt project.

3) Campaigning Benchmarking System:
A system for collecting data on a range of campaigns / campaign
actions and comparing these results vs. other campaigns /
campaign actions.  This is currently in an early phase and
initially it will simply collect and archive campaigning emails
and actions so they can be 'mined' for good ideas, what was done
when, who is doing what, etc. ( 1% of system vision, 90% of first
'archival' element)

So to paraphrase Jon - I have now "decloaked".

No technical progress on any of these will happen from FairSay's
side during July due to Petri (FairSay's Technical Director)
enjoying the summer (as we all should for those in the northern
hemisphere).

However during July I'll have some time to work on:
1) Discussing ways to collaborate on one or more of these
projects
2) Documenting and collecting issues on the 'pre-release' of the
eCampaigning project
3) Maybe (if 1 & 2 give me time) continue to work on GeoRosetta.

So - Jon, Martin, Sisi, Paul, others - if you want to talk about
any of these more - let me know (Note: I am offline from June
30 - July 10)

Cheers,

Duane

PS - I normally hesitate to promote these things until they are
released so I can deliver what I promise when I promise it (I
hate vaporware) - and that is determoned by either a client
driving it or enough free time to advance it.

===========================================================
Duane Raymond
FairSay
[phone]
http://www.fairsay.com


_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo

Oxfam works with others to find lasting solutions to poverty and suffering.

Oxfam GB is a member of Oxfam International, a company limited by guarantee and registered in England No. 612172.  
Registered office: Oxfam House, John Smith Drive, Cowley, Oxford, OX4 2JY
Registered charity No. 202918. 

http://www.oxfam.org.uk -- breaking news, emergency information, and enhanced content is only a click away.

Are you in?
With your help we can make this world a fairer place.
Visit: http://www.oxfam.org.uk/imin
today

[KwangErn Liew]

I think we should take good examples from Drupal's website. It's clear
distinct categorisation. Well defined sections, and up to date
straight-to-the-point information. General documentations with
specific ones in its sub category. Easy to use and ease to the eyes
interface design.

Plone has many good points. But whether it is really seen by a third
party, that's the most important questions. And for this, the website
is the front stage for impressing them.

It would be great if not developers who design and layout the website,
but rather experience marketing/sales executives and designers.


Regards,

Kwang

_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo

[Danny Hope-2]

I think were wandering into general Plone territory but some more screencasts probably wouldn't go amiss.

On 6/29/06, KE Liew <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think we should take good examples from Drupal's website. It's clear
distinct categorisation. Well defined sections, and up to date
straight-to-the-point information. General documentations with
specific ones in its sub category. Easy to use and ease to the eyes
interface design.

Plone has many good points. But whether it is really seen by a third
party, that's the most important questions. And for this, the website
is the front stage for impressing them.

It would be great if not developers who design and layout the website,
but rather experience marketing/sales executives and designers.


Regards,

Kwang

_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo

--

Regards,
Danny Hope

Hobo Internet

[phone]
http://www.hobointernet.com

39-40 Bond Street, Brighton, East Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK
_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo

[Reinout van Rees]

Paul Everitt wrote:
>
> I spent two hours chatting with Rob, even though he said he wasn't going
> the Zea network route, I still made an appointment and tried to help
> out.  He did get an in-person pitch from a Plone company, I believe.

Yep, zest software from the Netherlands. Jean-Paul went there.

Reinout

--
Reinout van Rees                       r.van.rees @ zestsoftware.nl
http://vanrees.org/weblog/                  http://zestsoftware.nl/
"Military engineers build missiles. Civil engineers build targets."


_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo

[Alexander Limi]

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 03:11:48 -0700, KE Liew  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think we should take good examples from Drupal's website. It's clear
> distinct categorisation. Well defined sections, and up to date
> straight-to-the-point information. General documentations with
> specific ones in its sub category. Easy to use and ease to the eyes
> interface design.
>
> Plone has many good points. But whether it is really seen by a third
> party, that's the most important questions. And for this, the website
> is the front stage for impressing them.
>
> It would be great if not developers who design and layout the website,
> but rather experience marketing/sales executives and designers.

We have been working on this for the past week in preparation for the 2.5  
announcement. A preview can be seen here (the layout is not final, I've  
been working on the content and structural elements, not the visuals as  
such):

http://plone.org/ploneorg_frontpage

While this doesn't replace the need for a more in-depth feature list, it  
makes the front page a bit more digestible. And yes, screencasts is on the  
radar for the front page, as you can see.

--
_____________________________________________________________________

      Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway

  Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com
_____________________________________________________________________

       Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content
   Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone


_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo

[Paul Everitt-2]

On Jun 30, 2006, at 3:22 AM, Alexander Limi wrote:

> On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 03:11:48 -0700, KE Liew <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I think we should take good examples from Drupal's website. It's  
>> clear
>> distinct categorisation. Well defined sections, and up to date
>> straight-to-the-point information. General documentations with
>> specific ones in its sub category. Easy to use and ease to the eyes
>> interface design.
>>
>> Plone has many good points. But whether it is really seen by a third
>> party, that's the most important questions. And for this, the website
>> is the front stage for impressing them.
>>
>> It would be great if not developers who design and layout the  
>> website,
>> but rather experience marketing/sales executives and designers.
>
> We have been working on this for the past week in preparation for  
> the 2.5 announcement. A preview can be seen here (the layout is not  
> final, I've been working on the content and structural elements,  
> not the visuals as such):
>
> http://plone.org/ploneorg_frontpage
>
> While this doesn't replace the need for a more in-depth feature  
> list, it makes the front page a bit more digestible. And yes,  
> screencasts is on the radar for the front page, as you can see.

FWIW, I do plan to make some more screencasts and I believe others do  
to.

--Paul

_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo

[Danny Hope-2]

A couple of ideas for improving the homepage.

The lists would be easier to scan if they were aligned-left and/or had bullets.

Another idea: Perhaps, since Plone is so easy to install, it would be a good idea to have a really prominent 'Download Plone' button. Seeing how easy Plone is to install and seeing it run might encourage an emotional connection to the product, if you see what I mean.

One last things - the news column is really long why not make it variable width? I suppose you might not want to set a precedent for the rest of the site.

On 6/30/06, Alexander Limi <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 03:11:48 -0700, KE Liew
<[hidden email]> wrote:

http://plone.org/ploneorg_frontpage

While this doesn't replace the need for a more in-depth feature list, it
makes the front page a bit more digestible. And yes, screencasts is on the
radar for the front page, as you can see.

--

Regards,
Danny Hope

Hobo Internet

[phone]
http://www.hobointernet.com

39-40 Bond Street, Brighton, East Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK
_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo

[Jean-Paul Ladage]

Reinout van Rees wrote:
> Paul Everitt wrote:
>> I spent two hours chatting with Rob, even though he said he wasn't going
>> the Zea network route, I still made an appointment and tried to help
>> out.  He did get an in-person pitch from a Plone company, I believe.
>
> Yep, zest software from the Netherlands. Jean-Paul went there.
>
> Reinout
>

Nice to see such a long thread on GP.

The bottom line for GP was the tight integration of drupal with a CRM
system, the name of which I didn't remember. It was mainly this feature
that made GP choose for Drupal, because they are allready using that CRM
system.

Allthough somebody from GP went to the Ploneability conf, their biggest
impression was that Plone has a lot of issues with performance. Which
might say more about the person visiting Ploneability than the
conference itself.

Another big thing that scared them was the budget. They heard about what
Oxfam had paid for their system.

Just to inform you ;)


_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo

[Peter Hollands]

On Friday 30 June 2006 12:58, Jean-Paul Ladage wrote:
> Another big thing that scared them was the budget. They heard about what
> Oxfam had paid for their system.

Well as many other NGO's are probably listening to all this, I would like
to reassure them on this point.

The Plone  projects at Oxfam have been good value for money.

The project was both an R&D project - funded by donors explicitly for the
benefit of the entire NGO community - and it is also associated with the
implementation of 4 major web sites across Oxfam affiliates.

Regards, Peter

_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo

[Alexander Limi]

Did you miss the part that said "the layout is not final, I've been  
working on the content and structural elements, not the visuals"? :)

I agree with all of your points, but please understand that no design  
whatsoever has been done on this yet. Patience. :)

-- Alexander

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 03:30:25 -0700, Danny Hope  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> A couple of ideas for improving the homepage.
>
> The lists would be easier to scan if they were aligned-left and/or had
> bullets.
>
> Another idea: Perhaps, since Plone is so easy to install, it would be a  
> good
> idea to have a really prominent 'Download Plone' button. Seeing how easy
> Plone is to install and seeing it run might encourage an emotional
> connection to the product, if you see what I mean.
>
> One last things - the news column is really long why not make it variable
> width? I suppose you might not want to set a precedent for the rest of  
> the
> site.
>
> On 6/30/06, Alexander Limi  
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 03:11:48 -0700, KE Liew
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> http://plone.org/ploneorg_frontpage
>>
>> While this doesn't replace the need for a more in-depth feature list, it
>> makes the front page a bit more digestible. And yes, screencasts is on  
>> the
>> radar for the front page, as you can see.
>
>

--
_____________________________________________________________________

      Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway

  Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com
_____________________________________________________________________

       Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content
   Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone


_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo

[KwangErn Liew]

Hi Limi :)

I notice the new layout, it's great! Especially the use of AJAX.

Would it be best if a discussion be held in Plone-UI on the specifics
of it? I would think NGO mailing list is a bit...off topic. But that's
just me. :)


Regards,

Kwang

On 7/1/06, Alexander Limi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Did you miss the part that said "the layout is not final, I've been
> working on the content and structural elements, not the visuals"? :)
>
> I agree with all of your points, but please understand that no design
> whatsoever has been done on this yet. Patience. :)
>
> -- Alexander
>
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 03:30:25 -0700, Danny Hope
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > A couple of ideas for improving the homepage.
> >
> > The lists would be easier to scan if they were aligned-left and/or had
> > bullets.
> >
> > Another idea: Perhaps, since Plone is so easy to install, it would be a
> > good
> > idea to have a really prominent 'Download Plone' button. Seeing how easy
> > Plone is to install and seeing it run might encourage an emotional
> > connection to the product, if you see what I mean.
> >
> > One last things - the news column is really long why not make it variable
> > width? I suppose you might not want to set a precedent for the rest of
> > the
> > site.
> >
> > On 6/30/06, Alexander Limi
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 03:11:48 -0700, KE Liew
> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> http://plone.org/ploneorg_frontpage
> >>
> >> While this doesn't replace the need for a more in-depth feature list, it
> >> makes the front page a bit more digestible. And yes, screencasts is on
> >> the
> >> radar for the front page, as you can see.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
>       Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway
>
>   Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
>        Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content
>    Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NGO mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo
>

_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo

[Danny Hope-2]

Oops. Noted.

On 7/1/06, Alexander Limi <[hidden email]> wrote:

Did you miss the part that said "the layout is not final, I've been
working on the content and structural elements, not the visuals"? :)

I agree with all of your points, but please understand that no design
whatsoever has been done on this yet. Patience. :)

-- Alexander

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 03:30:25 -0700, Danny Hope
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> A couple of ideas for improving the homepage.
>
> The lists would be easier to scan if they were aligned-left and/or had
> bullets.
>
> Another idea: Perhaps, since Plone is so easy to install, it would be a
> good
> idea to have a really prominent 'Download Plone' button. Seeing how easy
> Plone is to install and seeing it run might encourage an emotional
> connection to the product, if you see what I mean.
>
> One last things - the news column is really long why not make it variable
> width? I suppose you might not want to set a precedent for the rest of
> the
> site.
>
> On 6/30/06, Alexander Limi
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 03:11:48 -0700, KE Liew
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> http://plone.org/ploneorg_frontpage
>>
>> While this doesn't replace the need for a more in-depth feature list, it
>> makes the front page a bit more digestible. And yes, screencasts is on
>> the
>> radar for the front page, as you can see.
>
>

--
_____________________________________________________________________

      Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway

  Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com
_____________________________________________________________________

       Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content
   Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone


_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
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Danny Hope

Hobo Internet

[phone]
http://www.hobointernet.com

39-40 Bond Street, Brighton, East Sussex, BN1 1RD, UK
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[Nate Aune]

> The bottom line for GP was the tight integration of drupal with a CRM
> system, the name of which I didn't remember. It was mainly this  
> feature
> that made GP choose for Drupal, because they are allready using  
> that CRM
> system.

Drupal's tight integration with CiviCRM (http://www.openngo.org/) is  
clearly an advantage for anyone considering a CMS for membership  
management. Plone really needs to improve the membership management  
story if it's to compete with Drupal in this area.

The proposed topic for the sprint after the Plone conference is  
improving the membership management story. http://plone.org/events/ 
conferences/seattle-2006/related-events

We may want to look at the CiviMember requirements to get ideas for  
the future direction of PAS/membrane/remember. http://
wiki.civicrm.org/confluence/display/CRM/CiviMember+-+Community
+Specifications+and+Comments

The alternative to trying to make Plone function as a CRM itself is  
to leverage existing CRM services/software and integrate with them.

The Plone + salesforce.com integration project (http://www.onenw.org/ 
about/news/one-northwest-salesforce-plone/) will help push this  
forward, but I would also like to see efforts made to integrate Plone  
with open source CRM products such as SugarCRM, CiviCRM and vTiger.

ifPeople is offering hosted vTiger CRM solutions at CRMSpace.net, and  
mention that they've already integrated it with Plone. http://
www.ifpeople.net/community/news/20060531_crm/view

Nate

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[Nate Aune]

> Thought y'all might be interested to see the results of GPs' recent  
> evaluation of Plone vs. Drupal (vs Planet2, an in-house OpenACS  
> solution).
>
> http://importantprojects.com/archives/000084.php
>
> Plone lost narrowly to Drupal. I  offered some extensive comments  
> to Rob Purdie, who ran the process (and is a friend).  I think they  
> misjudged Plone on a few key points, my comments on those are below.
>
> Nonetheless, their requirements are a VERY interesting read to get  
> a sense of what a typical large NGO might be looking for in a CMS.

I think some sort of "FAQ for CMS evaluators" on plone.net would go a  
long way to avoiding these misconceptions about Plone. There is a  
*lot* of power lurking under the hood of Plone + add-on products, but  
you don't get this sense in browsing plone.org and reading the  
mailing lists. Or maybe you do, but you have to look in 10 different  
sources to gather all the information you need to make a decision.

We need to provide a comprehensive overview of what Plone offers, and  
your feedback to Rob Purdie below is a good start. I think if this  
were to be generalized and slap a few screenshots/screencasts in  
there, it would give evaluators a jump-start for considering Plone in  
their CMS evaluation process.

The mockup that Limi posted at http://plone.org/ploneorg_frontpage is  
good because it gives a quick-jump overview of what Plone offers. But  
I think it's still too simple for people who are seriously  
considering Plone. If this overview had links to more in-depth  
information, then it would be a much more valuable resource.

For example, for the "Pluggable Authentication" heading under the  
"Standards Compliant" tab, a link to a page with more information  
about PlonePAS and howtos for connecting it with LDAP and Active  
Directory would go a long way. As it is now, the evaluator has to  
hunt for this info, rather than having it easily accessible/digestible.

> Also it's interesting to note how hard the Drupal community worked  
> this process:
> http://groups.drupal.org/node/411
> http://groups.drupal.org/node/458

This also shows how the Drupal community is perhaps more transparent  
because the list archives are easily read through-the-web and don't  
require subscribing to the mailing list in order to post. Compare  
these Drupal list archive pages to the Plone NGO-list archive pages:  
http://lists.plone.org/pipermail/ngo/
which are more friendly and inviting discussion?

We might want to consider using listen (http://plone.org/products/ 
listen) which allows for mailing lists to be archived on a Plone  
site, which means they are searchable using the Plone search tool,  
and members can subscribe and respond to the lists through-the-web.

Nate

> Very interesting food for thought.
>
> Here's the feedback I offered to Rob Purdie:
>
> ===============
>
> System scability: Plone A- , Drupal A.
>  -- Not sure what that means to you, but Plone (well, Zope  
> actually) has built-in multi-server clustering support and can  
> scale almost infinitely in terms of traffic.  Drupal, AFAIK, does  
> not.  Plus, it has the smartest caching technology out there  
> (CacheFu) which dramatically speeds up performance.
>
> RSS Feeds:  Plone A, Drupal A+
>  -- Again, not sure why Plone would rate lower.  Everything in  
> Plone produces RSS, and you can construct RSS feeds for anything  
> you can search for, which AFAIK is actually MORE flexible than Drupal.
>
> Be able to include HTML in any field of the CMS: Plone B-, Drupal A+
> -- I don't know what this means, but I think this is a pretty weak  
> requirement.  The whole point of a CMS is to separate formatting  
> from content.  Plone allows you to insert arbitrary HTML into page  
> bodies.  You can override styles locally if you want to configure  
> Plone to allow that.   Perhaps the evaluators didn't realize this  
> -- Plone doesn't really advertise it.  You certainly don't want to  
> insert arbitrary HTML into metadata fields.
>
> Global Login: Plone B, Drupal B+
>  -- Not sure what this means at GP, but Plone unlike Drupal, has a  
> pluggable authentication system that can authenticate users against  
> prety much anything.   A single outlier rating made the difference.
>
> reuse/leverage content: Plone F-, Drupal F-
> -- I know this was constructed for Planet2, but perhaps you weren't  
> aware that Plone, using the PloneRSS product, can import content  
> via an RSS feed and transform it into first-class content objects.  
> That probably rates better than an F-, doncha think?
>
>
> Product database:  Plone B, Drupal A
>  -- If you're talking about full-on e-commerce support in the CMS,  
> Plone is definitely weaker there.  But if you're talking about  
> custom content types, I can't see how you one could rate Plone  
> significantly lower than Drupal.  Plone's Archtypes system for  
> creating custom content types is second to none.  Fields can be  
> maintained through the web.  Validation, UI and more are all  
> specified in a single schema.
>
> Cross-browser support:  Plone A, Drupal A+
>  -- What is this based on?  Plone is the most validatable,  
> standards-compliant package out there.  There was only one outlying  
> rating on this, otherwise both would hvae gotten A+ across the board.
>
> E-newsletter distribution: Plone C, Drupal A+
> -- You're giving Drupal an A+ because of CiviMail?  Beta quality  
> "developer only" code?  Relying on any CMS for email newsletter  
> distribution is pretty dodgy, IMHO.  A serious organization like GP  
> should be using a powerful hosted email newsetter distrbution tool  
> such as WhatCounts, Vertical Response, etc. that offers serious  
> deliverability, bounce management, etc.  Plone plays nicely with  
> these tools.  A single outlier rating accounts for nearly all of  
> the difference.
>
> extensibility: Plone A, Drupal A+.
>   -- Not sure what this is based on.  But to argue that Plone is  
> any less extensible than Drupal is simply not true.
>
> I'm surprised that GP didn't consider support for multi-lingual  
> content as a requirement.  Plone is of course very, very strong here.
>
> I'm also surprised GP didn't really consider versioning support.  
> Plone is also very strong here.
>
> ==============
> best,
> jon
>
> -----------------------------
> Jon Stahl, Program Manager
> ONE/Northwest - Online Networking for the Environment
> [hidden email]  http://www.onenw.org
> 206.286.1235x15  skype: jonstahl  y!: jondstahl
>
> Want a piece of my mind? Check out my blog at:
> http://blogs.onenw.org/jon
>
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[Martin Aspeli-2]

Nate Aune wrote:

> This also shows how the Drupal community is perhaps more transparent
> because the list archives are easily read through-the-web and don't
> require subscribing to the mailing list in order to post. Compare these
> Drupal list archive pages to the Plone NGO-list archive pages:
> http://lists.plone.org/pipermail/ngo/
> which are more friendly and inviting discussion?
>
> We might want to consider using listen
> (http://plone.org/products/listen) which allows for mailing lists to be
> archived on a Plone site, which means they are searchable using the
> Plone search tool, and members can subscribe and respond to the lists
> through-the-web.

The NGO list is in GMANE and Nabble, though, both of which offer good
TTW reading and searching.

Martin


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[Jon Stahl]

On Jul 2, 2006, at 11:34 AM, Martin Aspeli wrote:

> Nate Aune wrote:
>
>> This also shows how the Drupal community is perhaps more transparent
>> because the list archives are easily read through-the-web and don't
>> require subscribing to the mailing list in order to post. Compare
>> these Drupal list archive pages to the Plone NGO-list archive pages:
>> http://lists.plone.org/pipermail/ngo/
>> which are more friendly and inviting discussion?
>> We might want to consider using listen
>> (http://plone.org/products/listen) which allows for mailing lists to
>> be archived on a Plone site, which means they are searchable using
>> the Plone search tool, and members can subscribe and respond to the
>> lists through-the-web.
>
> The NGO list is in GMANE and Nabble, though, both of which offer good
> TTW reading and searching.

And both of which are somewhat intimidating to first-time, casual users
who are trying to "check Plone out."

Having basic mailing list integration with Plone.org is, IMHO, an
important (if not-obvious) marketing tactic.  We don't have to
duplicate the features & power of Nabble or Gmane -- listen's Plonesque
approach is probably sufficient for making list traffic more visible.

best,
jon


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[Martin Aspeli-2]

Jon Stahl wrote:

> Having basic mailing list integration with Plone.org is, IMHO, an
> important (if not-obvious) marketing tactic.  We don't have to duplicate
> the features & power of Nabble or Gmane -- listen's Plonesque approach
> is probably sufficient for making list traffic more visible.

Definitely true - we'd like to have listen mailing lists for every
project on plone.org/products that wants them, if it's feasible. It's
just a bit of a challenge to get that done and tested and stable. :)

Martin


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[Nate Aune]

Alec's listen product can be setup to create new lists "on the fly"  
as described in the README:
https://svn.plone.org/svn/collective/listen/trunk/README.txt

"If you would like to be able to setup arbitrary lists on your server  
and have
them automatically handled by your SMTP server the setup is slightly  
more
involved and dependent on the particulars of your SMTP server.  The  
end result
is that you need to map a catch-all domain to a similar command which  
uses a
tool in your Zope instance to decide where to route the mail."

Nate

On Jul 3, 2006, at 3:37 AM, Martin Aspeli wrote:

> Jon Stahl wrote:
>
>> Having basic mailing list integration with Plone.org is, IMHO, an  
>> important (if not-obvious) marketing tactic.  We don't have to  
>> duplicate the features & power of Nabble or Gmane -- listen's  
>> Plonesque approach is probably sufficient for making list traffic  
>> more visible.
>
> Definitely true - we'd like to have listen mailing lists for every  
> project on plone.org/products that wants them, if it's feasible.  
> It's just a bit of a challenge to get that done and tested and  
> stable. :)
>
> Martin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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[Alexander Limi]

On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 10:33:57 -0700, Nate Aune  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Alec's listen product can be setup to create new lists "on the fly" as  
> described in the README:
> https://svn.plone.org/svn/collective/listen/trunk/README.txt

The current suggestion is to give some of the bigger projects mailing  
lists on plone.org in this way, work out any problems, and then deploy it  
for all projects, maybe even including Plone itself.

There are a lot of unknowns still, it needs a lot of testing before we can  
switch to it, obviously. But it is the holy grail of forum/mailing list  
integration. :)

--
_____________________________________________________________________

      Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway

  Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com
_____________________________________________________________________

       Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content
   Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone


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