playback slider increments

[David Bailes-2]

Hi,

Someone on the pc-audio mailing list recently pointed out that the
increments by which the playback slider on the trancscription toolbar
are changed when using the arrow keys are too large. I think he was
adjusting this to aid moving aroung the audio, rather than for
transcription purposes. Currently the arrow keys move by 1/10 of
length of slider, and page up and down by 1/2 of length of slider.

More suitable increments might be 1/30 length of slider for arrow keys
and 1/6 length of slider for page up/down. This would mean that arrow
keys changed speed by .1, and page up/down changed speed by 0.5. In
addtion a keysroke to open the playback speed dialog would be useful
so that an exact speed could be entered when required - I know that
Leland is in the process of adding shortcuts to open some of the other
similar dialogs.

It appears that the sliders for input volume, output volume, pan and
gain all have rather large increments, so maybe these need reviewing
as well.

David.

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[André Pinto]

Hi David,

This was already discussed here (thread title "Precision Drag") however with a different approach than just making the slider steps smaller. If we can't find other solution, maybe we should just change the increments like you said.

Have you tried the precision dialog for sliders that appears after double-clicking on them?

André.

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 9:11 AM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

Someone on the pc-audio mailing list recently pointed out that the
increments by which the playback slider on the trancscription toolbar
are changed when using the arrow keys are too large. I think he was
adjusting this to aid moving aroung the audio, rather than for
transcription purposes. Currently the arrow keys move by 1/10 of
length of slider, and page up and down by 1/2 of length of slider.

More suitable increments might be 1/30 length of slider for arrow keys
and 1/6 length of slider for page up/down. This would mean that arrow
keys changed speed by .1, and page up/down changed speed by 0.5. In
addtion a keysroke to open the playback speed dialog would be useful
so that an exact speed could be entered when required - I know that
Leland is in the process of adding shortcuts to open some of the other
similar dialogs.

It appears that the sliders for input volume, output volume, pan and
gain all have rather large increments, so maybe these need reviewing
as well.

David.

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[David Bailes-2]

Hi André,

I was just considering the adjustment of sliders from the point of
view of those that can't use a mouse and so rely solely on the
keyboard, such as visually impaired users. But it's really the same
issue, needing a fine and a course adjustment (or more than two if
necessary), and getting the increments right.

David.

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 12:53 PM, André Pinto <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi David,
>
> This was already discussed here (thread title "Precision Drag") however with
> a different approach than just making the slider steps smaller. If we can't
> find other solution, maybe we should just change the increments like you
> said.
>
> Have you tried the precision dialog for sliders that appears after
> double-clicking on them?
>
> André.
>
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 9:11 AM, David Bailes <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Someone on the pc-audio mailing list recently pointed out that the
>> increments by which the playback slider on the trancscription toolbar
>> are changed when using the arrow keys are too large. I think he was
>> adjusting this to aid moving aroung the audio, rather than for
>> transcription purposes. Currently the arrow keys move by 1/10 of
>> length of slider, and page up and down by 1/2 of length of slider.
>>
>> More suitable increments might be 1/30 length of slider for arrow keys
>> and 1/6 length of slider for page up/down. This would mean that arrow
>> keys changed speed by .1, and page up/down changed speed by 0.5. In
>> addtion a keysroke to open the playback speed dialog would be useful
>> so that an exact speed could be entered when required - I know that
>> Leland is in the process of adding shortcuts to open some of the other
>> similar dialogs.
>>
>> It appears that the sliders for input volume, output volume, pan and
>> gain all have rather large increments, so maybe these need reviewing
>> as well.
>>
>> David.
>>
>>
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[André Pinto]

you are right.
thanks for pointing that accessibility issue.

André.

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 1:07 PM, David Bailes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi André,

I was just considering the adjustment of sliders from the point of
view of those that can't use a mouse and so rely solely on the
keyboard, such as visually impaired users. But it's really the same
issue, needing a fine and a course adjustment (or more than two if
necessary), and getting the increments right.

David.

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 12:53 PM, André Pinto <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> This was already discussed here (thread title "Precision Drag") however with
> a different approach than just making the slider steps smaller. If we can't
> find other solution, maybe we should just change the increments like you
> said.
>
> Have you tried the precision dialog for sliders that appears after
> double-clicking on them?
>
> André.
>
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 9:11 AM, David Bailes <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Someone on the pc-audio mailing list recently pointed out that the
>> increments by which the playback slider on the trancscription toolbar
>> are changed when using the arrow keys are too large. I think he was
>> adjusting this to aid moving aroung the audio, rather than for
>> transcription purposes. Currently the arrow keys move by 1/10 of
>> length of slider, and page up and down by 1/2 of length of slider.
>>
>> More suitable increments might be 1/30 length of slider for arrow keys
>> and 1/6 length of slider for page up/down. This would mean that arrow
>> keys changed speed by .1, and page up/down changed speed by 0.5. In
>> addtion a keysroke to open the playback speed dialog would be useful
>> so that an exact speed could be entered when required - I know that
>> Leland is in the process of adding shortcuts to open some of the other
>> similar dialogs.
>>
>> It appears that the sliders for input volume, output volume, pan and
>> gain all have rather large increments, so maybe these need reviewing
>> as well.
>>
>> David.
>>
>>
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[Leland (Audacity Team)]

David,

I've added the missing keyboard commands for the transcription controls.
  Keyboard shortcuts can be assigned in Preferences as usual.

I've made the increment/decrement 0.1 and you can open a dialog for
finer or coarser control.

Not sure about changing the increments/decrements for volume, gains, and
panning since they've been that way for a while.  But, there's always
the dialog that can be opened to specify the exact value desired.

Thought I haven't actually checked, I believe that all toolbar controls
now have keyboard commands.  That sound right to you?

Leland

David Bailes wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Someone on the pc-audio mailing list recently pointed out that the
> increments by which the playback slider on the trancscription toolbar
> are changed when using the arrow keys are too large. I think he was
> adjusting this to aid moving aroung the audio, rather than for
> transcription purposes. Currently the arrow keys move by 1/10 of
> length of slider, and page up and down by 1/2 of length of slider.
>
> More suitable increments might be 1/30 length of slider for arrow keys
> and 1/6 length of slider for page up/down. This would mean that arrow
> keys changed speed by .1, and page up/down changed speed by 0.5. In
> addtion a keysroke to open the playback speed dialog would be useful
> so that an exact speed could be entered when required - I know that
> Leland is in the process of adding shortcuts to open some of the other
> similar dialogs.
>
> It appears that the sliders for input volume, output volume, pan and
> gain all have rather large increments, so maybe these need reviewing
> as well.
>
> David.
>
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[David Bailes-2]

Hi Leland,

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 4:53 AM, Leland<[hidden email]> wrote:
> David,
>
> I've added the missing keyboard commands for the transcription controls.
>  Keyboard shortcuts can be assigned in Preferences as usual.
>
> I've made the increment/decrement 0.1 and you can open a dialog for
> finer or coarser control.

The commands for incrementing or decrementing a slider aren't very
useful, because you don't get any feedback from the screen reader as
to the changed value. With the focus being either the slider on the
toolbar, or the slider in the dialog, the increments for the arrow
keys and page up/down haven't been changed, and it would be better if
they were .1 and .5 respectively.

>
> Not sure about changing the increments/decrements for volume, gains, and
> panning since they've been that way for a while.  But, there's always
> the dialog that can be opened to specify the exact value desired.

ok.
>
> Thought I haven't actually checked, I believe that all toolbar controls
> now have keyboard commands.  That sound right to you?

It does, but in the dialog for selecting the input source, the label
of the dropdown list box is "New sample rate:".

David.

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[Leland (Audacity Team)]

David Bailes wrote:

> Hi Leland,
>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 4:53 AM, Leland<[hidden email]> wrote:
>> David,
>>
>> I've added the missing keyboard commands for the transcription controls.
>>  Keyboard shortcuts can be assigned in Preferences as usual.
>>
>> I've made the increment/decrement 0.1 and you can open a dialog for
>> finer or coarser control.
>
> The commands for incrementing or decrementing a slider aren't very
> useful, because you don't get any feedback from the screen reader as
> to the changed value.

True, but there's now way for me to make the screen reader say something
he doesn't want to since the slider being modified doesn't have the
focus.  I wish I could figure out how to do this, but I've had no
success so far.

 > With the focus being either the slider on the
> toolbar, or the slider in the dialog, the increments for the arrow
> keys and page up/down haven't been changed, and it would be better if
> they were .1 and .5 respectively.
The sliders in both cases are now .1 and .5.

>> Thought I haven't actually checked, I believe that all toolbar controls
>> now have keyboard commands.  That sound right to you?
>
> It does, but in the dialog for selecting the input source, the label
> of the dropdown list box is "New sample rate:".
>
Fixed.


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[Leland (Audacity Team)]

Leland wrote:

> David Bailes wrote:
>> Hi Leland,
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 4:53 AM, Leland<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> David,
>>>
>>> I've added the missing keyboard commands for the transcription controls.
>>>  Keyboard shortcuts can be assigned in Preferences as usual.
>>>
>>> I've made the increment/decrement 0.1 and you can open a dialog for
>>> finer or coarser control.
>> The commands for incrementing or decrementing a slider aren't very
>> useful, because you don't get any feedback from the screen reader as
>> to the changed value.
> True, but there's now way for me to make the screen reader say something
> he doesn't want to since the slider being modified doesn't have the
> focus.  I wish I could figure out how to do this, but I've had no
> success so far.
>

This really sucks!  I have figured this out and it works just peachy
with Jaws and NVDA.  But guess which one is doesn't work with?  I'd
email them and ask if they support the EVENT_SYSTEM_ALERT message, but
I've never gotten responses back from them on the a couple of previous
questions.

I does look like a Window-Eyes script could be written to receive the
message and voice it, but I don't really have the urge to learn how to
write Window-Eyes scripts...

If it were up to me, I'd just tell anyone with a problem to get NVDA.
I'm am constantly suprised how well it behaves.  So far, I've always
gotten what I expected from NVDA.  Both Jaws and, even worse,
Window-Eyes seem to do things entirely how they see fit.

Grrr!!!!

Anyway, I might go ahead and commit what I have.  At least it would
provide feedback for Jaws and NVDA users.

Leland


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[David Bailes-2]

On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Leland<[hidden email]> wrote:

> David Bailes wrote:
>> Hi Leland,
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 4:53 AM, Leland<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> David,
>>>
>>> I've added the missing keyboard commands for the transcription controls.
>>>  Keyboard shortcuts can be assigned in Preferences as usual.
>>>
>>> I've made the increment/decrement 0.1 and you can open a dialog for
>>> finer or coarser control.
>>
>> The commands for incrementing or decrementing a slider aren't very
>> useful, because you don't get any feedback from the screen reader as
>> to the changed value.
> True, but there's now way for me to make the screen reader say something
> he doesn't want to since the slider being modified doesn't have the
> focus.  I wish I could figure out how to do this, but I've had no
> success so far.
>
>  > With the focus being either the slider on the
>> toolbar, or the slider in the dialog, the increments for the arrow
>> keys and page up/down haven't been changed, and it would be better if
>> they were .1 and .5 respectively.
> The sliders in both cases are now .1 and .5.

Alas, some confusion over the size of the increments, they're now a bit small!
The speed has the range 0-3 ( 0 - 300%). My suggestion was for the for
the arrow keys to have increments of .1 (10%), so min-max in 30 steps,
and the
page up/down keys to have increments of .5 (50%), so min-max in six
steps. Also the commands to increments of .1 (10%) ).

could you make them bigger?
thanks,
David.

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[Gale (Audacity Team)]

On June 11th David Bailes wrote:
> Alas, some confusion over the size of the increments, they're now a bit small!
> The speed has the range 0-3 ( 0 - 300%). My suggestion was for the for
> the arrow keys to have increments of .1 (10%), so min-max in 30 steps,
> and the page up/down keys to have increments of .5 (50%), so min-max in six
> steps. Also the commands to increments of .1 (10%) ).
> could you make them bigger?

If I can make a dissenting noise, I think 0.03 increments are quite useful for sighted users who don't like trying to make fine adjustments with the mouse (shaky hands etc.). This means about 4 seconds slider travel if you hold down left/right arrow and go from one end of the slider to the other; just release and do individual presses when you get close to the point you want. I don't mind coarser increments, but can we keep them for up/down?  

Note that in 1.3.8 we have lost the functionality to click in the Play-at-Speed or gain/pan sliders and then adjust with arrow keys - the cursor moves instead of the slider unless you tab into the control to give it focus. That seems like a P2 bug to me.  

David, when you are arrowing, does the screen reader tell you the slider position after each press? For sighted users, not knowing the slider position if you prefer to adjust using arrow keys is a nuisance. Would it be possible to tooltip this, as we do when dragging with the mouse?



Gale
 

[David Bailes-2]

Hi Gale,

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 1:58 AM, Gale (Audacity
Team)<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On June 11th David Bailes wrote:
>> Alas, some confusion over the size of the increments, they're now a bit
>> small!
>> The speed has the range 0-3 ( 0 - 300%). My suggestion was for the for
>> the arrow keys to have increments of .1 (10%), so min-max in 30 steps,
>> and the page up/down keys to have increments of .5 (50%), so min-max in
>> six
>> steps. Also the commands to increments of .1 (10%) ).
>> could you make them bigger?
>
> If I can make a dissenting noise, I think 0.03 increments are quite useful
> for sighted users who don't like trying to make fine adjustments with the
> mouse (shaky hands etc.). This means about 4 seconds slider travel if you
> hold down left/right arrow and go from one end of the slider to the other;
> just release and do individual presses when you get close to the point you
> want. I don't mind coarser increments, but can we keep them for up/down?

How about 0.05 increments for the arrow keys, and 0.5 for the page
up/down? This makes the numbers read out by the screen reader follow a
simpler sequence, eg 100%, 105%, 110%, 115% etc.

> David, when you are arrowing, does the screen reader tell you the slider
> position after each press?

Yes.

David.

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[Gale (Audacity Team)]

| From David Bailes <[hidden email]>
| Mon, 29 Jun 2009 09:22:23 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] playback slider increments

> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 1:58 AM, Gale (Audacity
> Team)<[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On June 11th David Bailes wrote:
> >> Alas, some confusion over the size of the increments, they're now a bit
> >> small!
> >> The speed has the range 0-3 ( 0 - 300%). My suggestion was for the for
> >> the arrow keys to have increments of .1 (10%), so min-max in 30 steps,
> >> and the page up/down keys to have increments of .5 (50%), so min-max in
> >> six
> >> steps. Also the commands to increments of .1 (10%) ).
> >> could you make them bigger?
> >
> > If I can make a dissenting noise, I think 0.03 increments are quite useful
> > for sighted users who don't like trying to make fine adjustments with the
> > mouse (shaky hands etc.). This means about 4 seconds slider travel if you
> > hold down left/right arrow and go from one end of the slider to the other;
> > just release and do individual presses when you get close to the point you
> > want. I don't mind coarser increments, but can we keep them for up/down?
>
> How about 0.05 increments for the arrow keys, and 0.5 for the page
> up/down? This makes the numbers read out by the screen reader follow a
> simpler sequence, eg 100%, 105%, 110%, 115% etc.

Hi David

Yes I'd go with that, sounds ideal really.


Gale
   

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[Leland (Audacity Team)]

Gale (Audacity Team) wrote:
> Note that in 1.3.8 we have lost the functionality to click in the
> Play-at-Speed or gain/pan sliders and then adjust with arrow keys - the
> cursor moves instead of the slider unless you tab into the control to give
> it focus. That seems like a P2 bug to me.  
>
This is one of those choice kind of things.

The reason you can't do it now is because there was a complaint about the keyboard
commands no longer working if you click the controls in the toolbars.  This was
because the controls took the focus away from the trackpanel.  If we give the sliders
focus via the mouse, then the same thing will start to happen again.

Leland


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[Gale (Audacity Team)]

| From Leland <[hidden email]>
| Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:31:31 -0500
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] playback slider increments

> Gale (Audacity Team) wrote:
> > Note that in 1.3.8 we have lost the functionality to click in the
> > Play-at-Speed or gain/pan sliders and then adjust with arrow keys - the
> > cursor moves instead of the slider unless you tab into the control to give
> > it focus. That seems like a P2 bug to me.  
> >
> This is one of those choice kind of things.
>
> The reason you can't do it now is because there was a complaint about the keyboard
> commands no longer working if you click the controls in the toolbars.  This was
> because the controls took the focus away from the trackpanel.  If we give the sliders
> focus via the mouse, then the same thing will start to happen again.

Hi Leland

This does not quite make sense to me yet. Why would a VI user use the
mouse to click in (say) the input gain slider? If he CTRL + F6 and tabs
into there, the focus has gone from the track panel anyway. And if a
sighted user has clicked the control, I can't see why they would want
to use keyboard shortcuts. I thought a normal GUI rule was if you
click somewhere it has focus. It certainly looks very odd, as well as
the loss of functionality.  



Gale


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[Leland (Audacity Team)]

Gale Andrews wrote:

> | From Leland <[hidden email]>
> | Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:31:31 -0500
> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] playback slider increments
>> Gale (Audacity Team) wrote:
>>> Note that in 1.3.8 we have lost the functionality to click in the
>>> Play-at-Speed or gain/pan sliders and then adjust with arrow keys - the
>>> cursor moves instead of the slider unless you tab into the control to give
>>> it focus. That seems like a P2 bug to me.  
>>>
>> This is one of those choice kind of things.
>>
>> The reason you can't do it now is because there was a complaint about the keyboard
>> commands no longer working if you click the controls in the toolbars.  This was
>> because the controls took the focus away from the trackpanel.  If we give the sliders
>> focus via the mouse, then the same thing will start to happen again.
>
> Hi Leland
>
> This does not quite make sense to me yet. Why would a VI user use the
> mouse to click in (say) the input gain slider? If he CTRL + F6 and tabs
> into there, the focus has gone from the track panel anyway. And if a
> sighted user has clicked the control, I can't see why they would want
> to use keyboard shortcuts. I thought a normal GUI rule was if you
> click somewhere it has focus. It certainly looks very odd, as well as
> the loss of functionality.  
>

Yes, in a normal GUI, clicking something gives it focus and that was why I
originally made the focus go to whatever it was that was clicked.  But,
someone didn't like it when they clicked the play button (for instance) and
the keyboard shortcuts (like the arrow keys) no longer worked in the track
panel.

We can't have it both ways...unless I'm being dumb again.

Leland

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[Leland (Audacity Team)]

Gale Andrews wrote:

> | From David Bailes <[hidden email]>
> | Mon, 29 Jun 2009 09:22:23 +0100
> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] playback slider increments
>> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 1:58 AM, Gale (Audacity
>> Team)<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> On June 11th David Bailes wrote:
>>>> Alas, some confusion over the size of the increments, they're now a bit
>>>> small!
>>>> The speed has the range 0-3 ( 0 - 300%). My suggestion was for the for
>>>> the arrow keys to have increments of .1 (10%), so min-max in 30 steps,
>>>> and the page up/down keys to have increments of .5 (50%), so min-max in
>>>> six
>>>> steps. Also the commands to increments of .1 (10%) ).
>>>> could you make them bigger?
>>> If I can make a dissenting noise, I think 0.03 increments are quite useful
>>> for sighted users who don't like trying to make fine adjustments with the
>>> mouse (shaky hands etc.). This means about 4 seconds slider travel if you
>>> hold down left/right arrow and go from one end of the slider to the other;
>>> just release and do individual presses when you get close to the point you
>>> want. I don't mind coarser increments, but can we keep them for up/down?
>> How about 0.05 increments for the arrow keys, and 0.5 for the page
>> up/down? This makes the numbers read out by the screen reader follow a
>> simpler sequence, eg 100%, 105%, 110%, 115% etc.
>
> Hi David
>
> Yes I'd go with that, sounds ideal really.
>

Change committed.

Leland

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[Leland (Audacity Team)]

Leland wrote:

> Gale Andrews wrote:
>> | From Leland <[hidden email]>
>> | Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:31:31 -0500
>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] playback slider increments
>>> Gale (Audacity Team) wrote:
>>>> Note that in 1.3.8 we have lost the functionality to click in the
>>>> Play-at-Speed or gain/pan sliders and then adjust with arrow keys - the
>>>> cursor moves instead of the slider unless you tab into the control to give
>>>> it focus. That seems like a P2 bug to me.  
>>>>
>>> This is one of those choice kind of things.
>>>
>>> The reason you can't do it now is because there was a complaint about the keyboard
>>> commands no longer working if you click the controls in the toolbars.  This was
>>> because the controls took the focus away from the trackpanel.  If we give the sliders
>>> focus via the mouse, then the same thing will start to happen again.
>> Hi Leland
>>
>> This does not quite make sense to me yet. Why would a VI user use the
>> mouse to click in (say) the input gain slider? If he CTRL + F6 and tabs
>> into there, the focus has gone from the track panel anyway. And if a
>> sighted user has clicked the control, I can't see why they would want
>> to use keyboard shortcuts. I thought a normal GUI rule was if you
>> click somewhere it has focus. It certainly looks very odd, as well as
>> the loss of functionality.  
>>
> Yes, in a normal GUI, clicking something gives it focus and that was why I
> originally made the focus go to whatever it was that was clicked.  But,
> someone didn't like it when they clicked the play button (for instance) and
> the keyboard shortcuts (like the arrow keys) no longer worked in the track
> panel.
>
> We can't have it both ways...unless I'm being dumb again.
>

Actually, we can (sort of).  For sliders that can take focus, like the ones in the
toolbars, you can now right click instead of left clicking to force focus to the
slider.

Leland


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[David Bailes-2]

On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Leland<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> How about 0.05 increments for the arrow keys, and 0.5 for the page
>>> up/down? This makes the numbers read out by the screen reader follow a
>>> simpler sequence, eg 100%, 105%, 110%, 115% etc.
>>
>> Hi David
>>
>> Yes I'd go with that, sounds ideal really.
>>
> Change committed.

I tried Gale's build today, but it still had the old values. Maybe it
was too soon to pick up this commit,
David.

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[Gale (Audacity Team)]

| From David Bailes <[hidden email]>
| Thu, 9 Jul 2009 21:01:09 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] playback slider increments

> On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Leland<[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>> How about 0.05 increments for the arrow keys, and 0.5 for the page
> >>> up/down? This makes the numbers read out by the screen reader follow a
> >>> simpler sequence, eg 100%, 105%, 110%, 115% etc.
> >>
> >> Hi David
> >>
> >> Yes I'd go with that, sounds ideal really.
> >>
> > Change committed.
>
> I tried Gale's build today, but it still had the old values. Maybe it
> was too soon to pick up this commit,

At the moment I usually build at about 18:00 or so every day.
The build up there now:
http://www.gaclrecords.org.uk/audacity-win-unicode-1.3.8-alpha.zip

should have that change in ASlider.cpp as it was built from the
the latest version of that file. But I don't see any change from the
0.03x increments either, although the right-click to give focus
is working.


Gale


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[Leland (Audacity Team)]

David Bailes wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Leland<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> How about 0.05 increments for the arrow keys, and 0.5 for the page
>>>> up/down? This makes the numbers read out by the screen reader follow a
>>>> simpler sequence, eg 100%, 105%, 110%, 115% etc.
>>> Hi David
>>>
>>> Yes I'd go with that, sounds ideal really.
>>>
>> Change committed.
>
> I tried Gale's build today, but it still had the old values. Maybe it
> was too soon to pick up this commit,

Yea, probably was.  I had switched virtual machines thinking I'd committed, but I realized I hadn't a little later.

Leland


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