more informed carriers

[Lynn Placher]

As our president do you believe the carriers should be more informed than we our now? And what steps would you take to radify our current count process? I really wish I could have been here on Saturday to talk to you. And i have to ask why is the net such a turn off to our union? Don't you feel you can reach more of us on a site such as this where we all congregate to let our true feelings be heard?

[Just Alan]

Lynn,
As just a carrier, I wish we were all more informed about the Union, the job, and this dis-honest Company, but you can't fix "stupid". If I had a dollar for every carrier in the country who has not "bothered" to memorize the 603, read and understand the Contract and the M-38 manual, come to mail count training, and attend Union meetings, and get off thier ass hand help instead of bitch after thier ignorance bites them in the ass, I'd be living in the Bahamas on my own island and smoking expensive cigars.
alan

[*SUPERsub*]

aint that the truth...you can lead a rural carrier to information...
you just cant make them use it...

[Noppie]

Just Alan wrote:

........ but you can't fix "stupid". If I had a dollar for every carrier in the country who has not "bothered" to memorize the 603, read and understand the Contract and the M-38 manual, come to mail count training, and attend Union meetings, and get off thier ass hand help instead of bitch after thier ignorance bites them in the ass.....

I wish to add my point of view.
I applied to work and earn money not to play a games or take part in an insane process that seem to rewards those who take delight in causing harm to others.  I have no problem working.  I took the city/clerk test a few years after taking the RCA test.  I wold have chosen to be city carrier hands down.  No question asked.  I watched several warm bodies come in a quit a few days later.  I am not interest playing stupid games during mail count saying I use clearance slip but do not.  And all those other games.  I am unwilling to do things I view as dishonest that seem to be implied by those who belong to  the union.  

I do not support the NRLCA on any level and will not pay a single penny in supporting it.  YOU CAN NOT ATTEND mail count meeting UNLESS you join the UNION.  You can not attend UNION meeting unless you belong to the UNION.  It seem a function of the union to keep it carriers ignorant!  But now I back to how the UNION by design wants to caue harm not HELP

The UNION could tomorrow decide to post MORE information on the INTERNET.  It could do a lot things.  BUT it does not.  

[Noppie]

Just Alan wrote:

.....but you can't fix "stupid"....

I take issue yes you can't fix stupid, ignorance, lack knowledge and many other insults labelled on those who have fell victim of the NRLCA and USPS games. Denying access to knowledge does not make one smarter.  Sharing your knowledge wisdom and expertise helps the world.  In my experiences in the Marines and later in martial arts I saw individual other labelled as stupid or ignorant who were just lacking knowledge.  From my understanding even those who are mentally damaged can still learn.

In addition when you are working 12 hours a day six days a week and only getting for six and this is the work of an UNION.  It hard to justify addition FREE time spend for a union most do not support.  

[Just Alan]

Nopie, I will reply here to both of you latest post. First, MOST folks in our craft actually do support the Union, as they probably realize, as you do not, that without this Union we would all be treated like TRC's, and wouldn't that be special. Maybe I should have said "you can't fix lazy or dis-interested", any Union is only as good as what members put into it. You are starting to sound to me like one of us that cuts corners everywhere you can to get off early, and that hurts us all, so shame on you. If it takes you 12 hours to do a route that evaluates at six, maybe you are in over your haed and should apply for management. Disemenating information, in any format entails costs, which you apparently don't want to help defray. I think the Union should do a much better job in this regard, but you seem to expect those who pay dues to give you a free ride. Don't sound much like any Marine I know, but thank you for your service, none the less. One last thing, if your state provides "joint trainings" everybody can come, that "IS" Federal law, even if they aren't pulling thier weight by paying dues. I think you need to do a little more in-depth research on this issue.
PS, I am not an attorney, so can't quote the exact statute that prevents non-career employees from accessing benefits, but it is a fact. You seem to like working on the net, so look it up. Crediting "days in service" after someone makes career status may be negotiable, and a resolution to that effect has been proposed in Colorado, as I type.
Alan

[Noppie]

That you for replying to the post.

I disagreeing with you on every point.  My unwillingness to enjoy working 12 hours a day and only getting paid for 7 hour 17 minutes does not make me any less of a former marine or a postal employee.  But they are the insults I have learned to expect from the NRLCA.

Being not stupid and capable of doing this world math and understanding that working 12 hours and only get paid for 7 mean I am working for 5 hours for FREE.  That not an insult or a slight that is math.  When route around me are getting half the mail volume my route receives but are paid 8.5 to 9 hours a day.  And there are other routes in my office that get even more mail then my route and they are paid between 6 to 7 hours as well.  And we are told to just EXCEPT working 12 hours a day for the next 10 years or so till one of those gravy routes open up.  That I need to falsify my times so I will not go over my 2080.  Which in June or July maybe August I will be over my 2080 according to my supervisor.

I do not support the NRLCA on any level.  They according to real world math using real world english are harming rural letter carriers.  They enjoy harming rural letter carriers.  So I will not pay a penny to support it.  I would prefer to be exempt from NRLCA and it policies in a nano second and even if the USPS treated us poorly by real world standards.  We would be paid by the HOUR.  Two tier employment would in theory enforced.  So we would be radically better off the under the NRLCA    

If you wish to lead the NRLCA and change "things".  THEN doing what has harm rural letter carriers in the past will not help them in the future.

Now after all that said.  I do not want to get into insulting contest with you.  You do not know me personal and I do not know you.  AND you have to realize that there is a percentage of rural letter carriers who despise or hate the union.  So whatever path you take it would be nice it included the rest of the rural letter carriers vs a micro group.  Please think good thoughts.        

[rts]

I think you should consider joining the union, so you can attend a mail count training and you will be informed on how to count your mail.  You are missing something, if you are working that many hours over everyday....they will cut your route to one that you can manage.  You people who feel this way toward the union....why don't you donate the negotiated wages the union got you back to the postal service....they need this money right now.

[daboysdada]

Individual carriers to some extent are responsible for getting their own information. We had our annual district meeting yesterday. Of the 20-25 people that bothered to show up five were from my office, including the State President, the former District VP who was elected district President, Myself, who was elected district VP, on regular carrier and one sub who was elected district Secretary/Treasurer. I found out about the meeting via a postcard in the Mail, and made it a priority to attend. A sub I spoke with this last Saturday said she didn't know about it. I should also mention that my office has 58 routes in it and is the largest Rural only office in my state! Point is, it's not always up to the National Board to hold your hand and make sure you have all the info you need. In my opinion it should trickle down from the board to the State Steward, to the local stewards and then to those carriers who care enough to be informed.

[Noppie]

RTS: I find the current system of the NRLCA with mail count, and evaluation to be seriously flawed.  (that being very polite).  And I personal believed it flawed by design.  In addition I have other issues with the union.  I simply refuse to contribute to an organization that refuses to listen to it own members, others effected by their action and the remaining rural carriers.  

Right now on my route I am average 9 hours a day.  I might work 11 on monday and less on other days.  I am told by my fellow carriers they will be unwilling to cut the route because it will effect the L status.

I support any steps that will bring an END to the NRLCA.    

[Noppie]

Daboysdada:  Having critical information needed to do your job should not be a secret.  Denying or not  allowing critical information to be known by those it effects in concern to their hours and pay is a serious problem and a non verbal statement of the NRLCA intentions.  If you have a system like the one you seem to be implying then by design it keep individual in the dark.  It a circular argument that it keeps feeding itself.

No one is asking anyone to treat us like babies.  But I and others do expect the NRLCA to be honest and truthful in its actions.  From my own experiences of working at the USPS since 2001.  The NRLCA as an organization openly advocates working for FREE, denying benefits and wants it employees to fund the USPS by supply them with vehicles at their expensive.  Stop listening to noise they make with their mouths and LOOK at the END RESULT of their actions.  Their ACTION speak louder then any words by the NRLCA.

I would not use the word CARE when communicating about the NRLCA.  As an RCA I worked in almost every PO within one hour radius of Westminster PO.  In each office it was the same story.  There was always at least ONE route that could be done in  FOUR HOURS but paid 9, had off every Saturday and was supplied a LLV.  Needless to say those individuals thought it was a great deal.  And there was a route in every office that could not be done in the evaluation on any given day.  The rest were in between those two extremes.  My observation was that only THAT carrier on that gravy route supported the union.  

It would seem though you did not make that observation by name.  You may have notices that ONLY those who benefit from this seriously flawed system are the one supporting it.  WHAT union puts in place a seriously flawed system that has employees working for FREE.        

[rts]

I have been with the postal service longer than you, have not seen what you are talking about.  I live in GA, and you would not be working over your evaluation without having your route cut.  I have a 47K, non-L and I know I must maintain my evaluated schedule.  In all fairness to your situation, it sounds as though your district is the one having the problem....on the other hand, it is wrong for you to assume that all States operate in the same manner.  In MY office, we do not have 2080 problems, because management stays on top of it and when we have had them in the past, routes were cut.  I think you have a very negative attitude and seem to be very unhappy with your current situation.  If I were at that point in my life, I would be looking for a new job.  You seem to have no intent to help improve the situation.  You should join and run for office and see what you can accomplish.  As far as information, your on a web site that you can access all the info you want.

[Noppie]

Rts
Our office does have RCA.  BUT many of the others post offices within a short driving distance have NO RCA whatsoever.  In post offices near to Westminster it is not uncommon to see LLV returning to Finksburg Post Office at 9 or 11 PM (yes in the evening).  I used to attend a life drawing session in Pikesville and car pool with those living in Westminster.  WE would see those LLV's return late at night.  I know of a business owner who regular get her mail well after closing her business.  One member of my art group lives in Woodstock Md and he often get his mail at night and claims he goes days without receiving any mail.  Another member of my art group mother lives in Clarksville Md and claims not get her mail till 7 or 9 PM.  

In the past our postmaster had said it as in his interest to be generous with Rural carriers and RCAs.  To make sure all his routes were fairly evaluated.  And he said he knew how to adjust them in a manner that would be fair to all.  However neither union or PO is willing to do that.  In fact according to him, Baltimore is extremely aggressive in creating situations that make it difficult for him to do his job.  However since he is not work 12 hours and getting paid for 7.  It does not really effect  him.  

In concern to quitting.  Sure that is always an option.  And offering that as my main option is a statement in itself.  However just because some else wants a nightmare situation does not mean I have to accept that on any level.  If the GA USPS has decided that creating a nightmare situation for it carriers is not in their interest of their carriers.  Then I can see why you like your situation and are at a lost to understand individuals in my position.  

However, you must understand math.  Today you are benefitting from a system that could turn on you tomorrow.  The math of the extremely flawed system setup by the NRLCA says yes it will turn on you, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.  If the situation was to change and you found yourself working 12 hour days six days week and only get paid for 6.  Most of or all your RCAs quit.  And since you have already worked more then 10 years.  Would you walk away from your job and pension?  I guessing you would like to say yes I would.  But we all have mortgages, car loans, bills and more bills.  And you would have very few options.  The USPS and the NRLCA are 100% aware that many of us no matter how unhappy with our situation can not walk away.  

When you make a mess?  Do you expect others to clean up that mess?  I betting you do not.  Or you would like others to believe that you take care any and all problems associated in your life.  I view the NRLCA as monstrous nightmare/mess left for us by others.  It is a radically flawed systems designed to cause harm.  Do we as rural carriers leave that mess for others to one clean up?  Maybe you wish to profit from a system you know is flawed?  Do you want a system that is fair to everyone or a select few?  You may answer any way you like.  AND you might want to believe I am stupid or lazy.  But tomorrow the situation might change for you.  Do you want people thinking you are stupid or lazy?    

AND I have found rural mail information via the web.  I would have rather have gone directly to union web site and found it easily.

In theory only.  Tomorrow the UNION could offer all rural carries and RCA two choices
1.  Things as they are now, no benefits for RCA, working 12 hours a day and only get paid for 6 and supply your own vehicle to deliver the mail.
2.  Get paid by the HOUR, supply benefits to both the RLCs and RCAs and supplying a postal vehicle.

Now tell me how many of the non-member would choose option 2?  Would the NRLCA have a membership problem?  Looking at these two choices please tell me who is the NRLCA working for?              

[rts]

You are correct that I do not understand your situation or why it has gotten to this point.  Someone in your area has not been doing their job.  If people and businesses are getting their mail at that time of night, that is extremely poor customer service.  If you do not have RCA's in offices, then why are carriers not requesting that RCA's be hired.  People are jobless all over the US and I am sure if the manager's used their time wisely they could hire people.  We have way too much abuse on the side of management, they do not attend to what they need to.  This sounds like what is going on in your area.  

I agree there are many flaws in our current system, however, I also believe that there are many ways to improve that does not require us to go on the clock.  I also worked 9 years as an RCA without benefits and was glad to have the job.  I do not have a problem with RCA's having benefits, being able to join thrift savings etc....but how many fight for those, write up resolutions and submit them to try and make a change.  If you want to make a difference you have to get involved.  You can do more by attending meetings and trying to change things than you can on here.

As far as a vehicle, I would love to have an LLV, every year I spend countless hours keeping up with my expenses and working on my taxes so I can at least break even.  Mr Potter says we are given a generous EMA....he should look at our expenses.  He does not have a clue, because he does not deliver out of his own personal vehicle.

You have genuine concerns, but I feel you could go in a different direction and get so much more accomplished.  I do not vote at conventions based on the popular person, just as I did in the presidential election, I will listen to what you say and read between the lines.  Often what someone does not say, says it all.  I would replace several of our National Officers, today.  They have been there too long and need to go back and run their routes before they make decisions for the craft.

You would be a great help to your office, district and other rural carriers, if you just went in another direction with this.

[Noppie]

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I wrote to my senator my Senator Barbara Mikulski and Ben Cardin about many problems I had with the USPS and NRLCA.  One of those problems was supplying vehicles.  The Post Office told Senator Barbara Mikulski that everyone who wanted an LLV was assigned one.  End result she sent out a caseworker and verified LLV were not supplied and we all wanted one.  All even routes without LLV eventually received an LLV.

It is my belief that USPS is telling authorities somethings that is not true.  So I would write or call your senator and or congressman and explain that arbiters decided LLVs to supplied to all routes.  You wanted an LLV and that EMI is not adequate on  any level.

I guessing you tried the union?  Now go around the union.  Your union and your state steward could visit your senators and congressmen face to face and explain the situation.  But they are not.   

Noppie

---

This email is a reply to your post @ http://n2.nabble.com/more-informed-carriers-tp2553196p2599914.html
You can reply by email or by visting the link above.

[rts]

You know, I will try that approach, I have started writing a lot of letters this year.  It is worth a TRY.  
Thanks

[Just Alan]

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Nopie,

I did not intend to insult you, I apologize if I did. The point I think I was making, was that the route you are serving "CANNOT" be properly evaluated, if it says 7 hours, and it takes you 12, that tells me the carrier who was in charge during the previous, and possibly last count, did not attend mail count training, was clueless, and has not been raped by the Union, but by the Company, because they were not armed with the knowledge they needed to protect themselves. That was your/thier responsibility, I have been doing this for 23 years, and have attended at least 30 Count Trainings, and have "NEVER" not gotten what I was entitled to.

 

Who told you to "ACCEPT" being screwed? Not the Union, supervisors possibly, or possibly other dis-gruntled non-members.

I will caution you here as a fellow carrier. IF you falsify your time sheets to stay under 2080 for your own personal reasons, the Union will not try to have you fired, (in my opinion we should, as you are contributing to the "bump" which hurts us all) the Company will if it suits it purposes.

In closing, I will firmly state, I do not believe any current or former National officer has intentionally taken actions to "harm" the people they are sworn to serve and support. I have many issues with the results of many of thier actions and policies, which is why I am running to be the next CEO. Can I "guarantee" better results? absolutely not I will give it my best effort, if afforded the opportunity to do so.

You are angry, and wasting the energy in trying to tear apart the only body that affords you any protection from the Company. Think about a re-direction of that energy.

Alan

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:40 PM

Subject: Re: more informed carriers

That you for replying to the post.

I disagreeing with you on every point.  My unwillingness to enjoy working 12 hours a day and only getting paid for 7 hour 17 minutes does not make me any less of a former marine or a postal employee.  But they are the insults I have learned to expect from the NRLCA.

Being not stupid and capable of doing this world math and understanding that working 12 hours and only get paid for 7 mean I am working for 5 hours for FREE.  That not an insult or a slight that is math.  When route around me are getting half the mail volume my route receives but are paid 8.5 to 9 hours a day.  And there are other routes in my office that get even more mail then my route and they are paid between 6 to 7 hours as well.  And we are told to just EXCEPT working 12 hours a day for the next 10 years or so till one of those gravy routes open up.  That I need to falsify my times so I will not go over my 2080.  Which in June or July maybe August I will be over my 2080 according to my supervisor.

I do not support the NRLCA on any level.  They according to real world math using real world english are harming rural letter carriers.  They enjoy harming rural letter carriers.  So I will not pay a penny to support it.  I would prefer to be exempt from NRLCA and it policies in a nano second and even if the USPS treated us poorly by real world standards.  We would be paid by the HOUR.  Two tier employment would in theory enforced.  So we would be radically better off the under the NRLCA    

If you wish to lead the NRLCA and change "things".  THEN doing what has harm rural letter carriers in the past will not help them in the future.

Now after all that said.  I do not want to get into insulting contest with you.  You do not know me personal and I do not know you.  AND you have to realize that there is a percentage of rural letter carriers who despise or hate the union.  So whatever path you take it would be nice it included the rest of the rural letter carriers vs a micro group.  Please think good thoughts.        

[Noppie]

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Alan. gain thanks for taking the time to reply and answer my question.  I do have to agree with many of the other gripping here in the forum has a certain point and purpose.  I feel I have brought it to your attention.  

In concern to my mail count.  Last year I force to re-attend new employee orientation for a second time during the mail count during the second week.  I was allowed to work the route I am current assigned as a RCA.  However since my hour exceed 40 hours.  I had to take off 3 days of the first week.  Within a month or two I felt comfortable with the route and ten evaluation that had been assigned.  And felt that in a few months I would doing just fine.  However my new evaluation came back so low they had to add to the route.  I did not feel 15 minutes they add was adequate to volume they added.  

I was told by Md Steward not to worry, if they add to a route I would get a special mail count in september.  When september came I was denied that count.  I called and left multi messages with the Md State Steward and got no response.  So I called 703-684-5545 and ended up talking to an individual who would only identify himself as Mr Arnold.  When I told hims what had happen.  His literal response was that he got hard-on us little fuckers are out there working for FREE.  AND that he would take no action that would allow me to get a more generous mail count.  That 703-684-5545 is phone number to National Rural Letter Carriers' Association located at 1630 Duke Street Alexandria, Virginia , 22314-3465

USA.  

I still disagree with some of your points.  HOWEVER, if you are working to get benefits for the RCAs,  getting RCA and TRC a choice to work on the clock,  improve or take an action that will generate a MORE HONEST Mail count, make EMA compensate 100% of real cost or supplying LLVs to all routes that want one.  Then I can support that in spirit.  But you must acknowledge whether it is small or a large number I know from my experience that individual within the NRLCA do take delight in knowing they are causing harm.  Maybe in your experience and from your point of view you have never witness that.  

So I do not need any more of your attention and please focus on communicating your desires to change the direction of the NRLCA.  If you need me to communicate to carriers in my office your intention or other like action I will do so.     

     

On Apr 7, 2009, at 8:02 PM, Just Alan (via Nabble) wrote:

Nopie,

I did not intend to insult you, I apologize if I did. The point I think I was making, was that the route you are serving "CANNOT" be properly evaluated, if it says 7 hours, and it takes you 12, that tells me the carrier who was in charge during the previous, and possibly last count, did not attend mail count training, was clueless, and has not been raped by the Union, but by the Company, because they were not armed with the knowledge they needed to protect themselves. That was your/thier responsibility, I have been doing this for 23 years, and have attended at least 30 Count Trainings, and have "NEVER" not gotten what I was entitled to.

 

Who told you to "ACCEPT" being screwed? Not the Union, supervisors possibly, or possibly other dis-gruntled non-members.

I will caution you here as a fellow carrier. IF you falsify your time sheets to stay under 2080 for your own personal reasons, the Union will not try to have you fired, (in my opinion we should, as you are contributing to the "bump" which hurts us all) the Company will if it suits it purposes.

In closing, I will firmly state, I do not believe any current or former National officer has intentionally taken actions to "harm" the people they are sworn to serve and support. I have many issues with the results of many of thier actions and policies, which is why I am running to be the next CEO. Can I "guarantee" better results? absolutely not I will give it my best effort, if afforded the opportunity to do so.

You are angry, and wasting the energy in trying to tear apart the only body that affords you any protection from the Company. Think about a re-direction of that energy.

Alan

      

[MAILGURL]

JustAlan, you stated that you have "NEVER" not gotten what I was entitled to during a mail count?  Well, you are probably one of the few.  It has been my experience that even WITH ALL THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE, INCLUDING MAIL COUNT TRAINING AND COPIES OF DOCUMENTATION TO BACK UP YOUR POSITIONS, that some of us are NOT getting what we are entitled to during mail counts.  In my office we were denied any time for edit books, time to put parcels on shelves when unable to deliver, denied credit on no record mail, coa's, credit for handling hold mail cards, credit for the new 3982 R forms and actual time for standups, loading, and whatever else could be reduced or denied.  

To get back to the original subject of this thread, more informed carriers, it is my idea that there should be a mandatory "inservice" required for all carriers...say, depending on the amount of changes occurring in a year, 8 hours, or 12 hours.  This inservice time would be paid, and would be training and education of proper methods for doing our jobs.  Management goes to special meetings to get updated on new procedures they are required to use, same should hold true for the rest of us.  I think something like this might help us all play using the same book, and be on the same page.  

 

[Rebec]

When I go to the meeting or for that matter attend the State convention I hand a
problem to someone that just tells me to get with my steward.
I even draw pictures.

If you must know sometimes the ____ is the problem.
How can you prevent them from taking territory off your route
when you route comes back good.
I had lots of accountables that may not happen next yr
then the route would be too low.

rebec