gta02-core prototypes: distribution and finances

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Werner Almesberger

gta02-core prototypes: distribution and finances

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These are my ideas for how we can split the gta02-core prototypes
we'll make. There are two issues: cost and risk. The risk is that
we may end up with anything between a glorious pile of junk to
perfect devices, depending on design and manufacturing performance.
So we need a reasonably fair solution for sharing that risk.

First of all, here's roughly what all this will cost:

- the only sponsorship we have is Openmoko donating the components.
  PCBs and SMT cost, any components we add, import fees, etc., will
  have to come out of our own pockets.

  (If we can find a way to cut costs, that will be great, but for
  now we have to assume that we'll be on our own.)

- my rough estimate is that, if we make 20 boards, each board will
  cost about EUR 200 for the PCB, EUR 200 for SMT, and EUR 100 for
  miscelleaneous costs (components, etc.). If we make fewer than
  20 boards, the total cost will decrease but the per-board cost
  will increase.

- so the final cost per device should be something between EUR 500
  and EUR 1000. To this, add shipping plus any taxes your customs
  will claim.

- I would make all the payments for the production costs, and then
  ship the devices against reimbursement for the respective share
  of the cost. (That would be by SWIFT transfer.)

Since the number of component sets may be smaller than the number
of devices people want, I was thinking of the following rationing
scheme:

- I'll start with a show of hands of who wants to buy a prototype.
  That's just indicative so that I can plan ahead, not a firm
  commitment.

- active contributors to the gta02-core project get priority and
  can "pre-order" up to two devices each.

- after that, anyone else's "pre-orders" will be considered, again
  up to two devices each. If we exceed the 20 units, the first
  pre-orders by time of arrival get registered, and all the rest
  goes into a queue.

- if we have less than 20 pre-orders, the rest will get allocated
  to those who want more than 2 units, by repeatedly applying the
  above rules while incrementing the per-person quota by one, until
  we reach 20 or run out of pre-orders.

- I'll use this information to order the GE865 modules (which have
  a bit of a lead time), and to obtain a more precise cost estimate.

- once we're approaching the point where we'll order the PCBs and
  I'll have a better cost estimate, I'll ask for confirmations. If
  you've pre-ordered but have changed your mind, you can drop all or
  part of your pre-order. If you haven't pre-ordered but now want a
  prototype, or you want to increase your order, your extension goes
  to the back of the queue and I'll apply the above rules on the
  available devices.

  You can of course also communicate any changes before the
  confirmation deadline.

- once the orders have been confirmed, I'll announce the results and
  you're expected to stick to your decision. I'll accept payments as
  soon as the various orders have been placed and confirmed, i.e.,
  once I'm confident things will run to completion.

When the first board comes out of SMT, we'll proceed as follows:

- try to make them it do something, such as draw power and not smoke.
  Maybe even talk to JTAG. In general, test as much as possible to
  verify that there are no SMT errors, such a badly soldered parts,
  misplaced or misoriented parts, or wrong parts. The emphasis here
  is on "possible", not on "much". The SMT line can't wait forever
  while we're performing a meticulous autopsy.

- if the first board looks really bad, it goes to the scrap pile. If
  it looks so-so, it goes to the "problem" pile. If it miraculously
  works great, we put it on the "we've defeated Murphy" pile. Then
  we'll make any necessary adjustments and try the next one.

- repeat until things look good or we run out of boards. Then SMT the
  rest - if any - quickly and do the triage as above. (Even when the
  SMT process looks good, there may still be flaws. So once in a
  while, there will be a bad board.)

In the end, we'll have up to three piles: scrap, problem, and good.
Note that this classification is only the result of an initial
inspection. A "good" board may have hidden serious flaws and a "scrap"
board may be perfect after a small rework. But I think it's at least
indicative enough that we can and should use this information for the
further allocation.

The allocation would then go as follows:

- each order of two or more boards gets a board from the best pile
  ("good" if there are any, "problem" of none were good, let's not
  dwell on the third possibility.)

- if there are more candidates for a board from the best pile than
  boards, a lottery deemed fair by yours truly will decide.

- if there are boards left in the best pile, one goes to each of
  the remaining orders. Again, with lottery if necessary.

- the remaining boards are distributed to the unfulfilled orders
  randomly. If we have more boards than orders, we'll keep the worst
  ones back.

- once the allocation is complete, the units can be shipped, along
  with information on how the testing went.

Does this sound reasonable ?

- Werner

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Dave Ball

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Werner Almesberger wrote:
> Does this sound reasonable ?
>  

Not particularly liking the idea of paying for a glorious pile of junk,
but I think this process is about as fair as possible.

I'm not confident we'll get orders for 20 boards though.  Does there
come a point where the cost of producing & SMTing extra boards is
worthwhile to reduce the risk of dead boards?  i.e. 15 boards ordered,
and charged at 15+1/5 of the per board cost, all 20 are made etc.  The
first 5 can come out smoking before a paying order doesn't get a board
that powers up.  A slight increase in cost per board, for a reduction in
risk (particularly for folk that only order one board)

If they come out working, we might be able to get that money back from
someone who is otherwise a little risk adverse!


Dave

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Werner Almesberger

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Dave Ball wrote:
> Not particularly liking the idea of paying for a glorious pile of
> junk, but I think this process is about as fair as possible.

There's always the chance that we got most things right :) Since
this is an all-new process, I think it's impossible to predict our
real chance of success, and it's even harder to say how much can
be salvaged later by rework. So I'd say we should prepare for the
worst but hope for the best.

> I'm not confident we'll get orders for 20 boards though.

I have no idea, really. I'll want two for myself. So that's only
18 left :)

> Does there
> come a point where the cost of producing & SMTing extra boards is
> worthwhile to reduce the risk of dead boards?

Ah yes, I think we should leave at least two boards unallocated,
because that's the least number we can expect to go horribly wrong.
With that I mean components 1 mm off-center, rotated by 90 degrees,
and such. We can toss them into the lottery as a freebie without
value :)

So, with those first two who'll take one for the team, we're down
to 16 left. Hey, they're going fast ! ;-)

- Werner

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Dave Ball

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Werner Almesberger wrote:
> So, with those first two who'll take one for the team, we're down
> to 16 left. Hey, they're going fast ! ;-)
>  

I'll take one, but might go for a second if the price ends up low in the
estimated range.  You can never have too many gadgets :-)

15...

Dave

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AlvieBoy

Re: gta02-core prototypes: distribution and finances

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In reply to this post by Werner Almesberger
Werner Almesberger wrote:
> First of all, here's roughly what all this will cost:
>
> - the only sponsorship we have is Openmoko donating the components.
>   PCBs and SMT cost, any components we add, import fees, etc., will
>   have to come out of our own pockets.

Unless we find some more sponsors. Can we ?

> - my rough estimate is that, if we make 20 boards, each board will
>   cost about EUR 200 for the PCB, EUR 200 for SMT, and EUR 100 for
>   miscelleaneous costs (components, etc.). If we make fewer than
>   20 boards, the total cost will decrease but the per-board cost
>   will increase.

That's roughly what I was thinking. The problem with making more boards is in case they're flawed, we are just wasting money.

I remember seeing a website they did SMT assembly for a single board (by hand). Don't remember which...

Those 200*20 for PCB, how much is soldermask ?

> - so the final cost per device should be something between EUR 500
>   and EUR 1000. To this, add shipping plus any taxes your customs
>   will claim.

Well this depends where PCB/SMT is. Thinking China/Taiwan ?

> - I'll start with a show of hands of who wants to buy a prototype.
>   That's just indicative so that I can plan ahead, not a firm
>   commitment.

I am, but raising that amount of money is not easy. We are not very well paid around here :P

> - active contributors to the gta02-core project get priority and
>   can "pre-order" up to two devices each.

(relief) :)

> - I'll use this information to order the GE865 modules (which have
>   a bit of a lead time), and to obtain a more precise cost estimate.

Since we are to stick with GE865, maybe we can order more units in advance. Of course we don't want you to pay for all that stuff, so we need a means to raise
funds.

> When the first board comes out of SMT, we'll proceed as follows:
>
> - try to make them it do something, such as draw power and not smoke.

(current limiter maybe ?) :P

>   Maybe even talk to JTAG. In general, test as much as possible to
>   verify that there are no SMT errors, such a badly soldered parts,
>   misplaced or misoriented parts, or wrong parts. The emphasis here
>   is on "possible", not on "much". The SMT line can't wait forever
>   while we're performing a meticulous autopsy.

We'll have to properly schedule this. When it comes out of fabric, you or someone should give it a try and be on IRC at same time, so we can quickly communicate
with each others.

> - if the first board looks really bad, it goes to the scrap pile. If
>   it looks so-so, it goes to the "problem" pile. If it miraculously
>   works great, we put it on the "we've defeated Murphy" pile. Then
>   we'll make any necessary adjustments and try the next one.

No scrap pile. We might be able to extract some stuff from it.

> - repeat until things look good or we run out of boards. Then SMT the
>   rest - if any - quickly and do the triage as above. (Even when the
>   SMT process looks good, there may still be flaws. So once in a
>   while, there will be a bad board.)

Now, for bad boards... if we get faults in subsystems like WLAN, BT, GPS we can still use them to some extent.

> The allocation would then go as follows:
>
> - each order of two or more boards gets a board from the best pile
>   ("good" if there are any, "problem" of none were good, let's not
>   dwell on the third possibility.)
>
> - if there are more candidates for a board from the best pile than
>   boards, a lottery deemed fair by yours truly will decide.
>
> - if there are boards left in the best pile, one goes to each of
>   the remaining orders. Again, with lottery if necessary.

Lottery sounds fair enough.

> Does this sound reasonable ?

Not sure. Prototype cost is a bit high, we ought to find a "sponsor" for this. Just not quite sure where to apply my boot-licking efforts :P

Any news from USP you can share with the list ?

Best,
Álvaro

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Werner Almesberger

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?lvaro Lopes wrote:
> Unless we find some more sponsors. Can we ?

If you have suitable contacts, please try. I know of some sponsors
for this sort of projects, but they tend to move very little money.

At the end of the day, I have to ask myself if, say, a few hundred
USD would really make all that much of a difference, and if it would
be worth spending several days on negotiations, writing "thank you"
letters, and such, instead of working on technical issues.

> I remember seeing a website they did SMT assembly for a single board
> (by hand). Don't remember which...

Hmm, with an 332FBGA ? These critters are messy even with proper
equipment.

> Those 200*20 for PCB, how much is soldermask ?

That price is just an estimate based on what I've been told this kind
of board costs in general. There are many PCB houses that can do this.
So once the SMT site is selected, I'll look for one that's logistically
and fiscally "close".

Soldermask isn't really optional for such a complex board. ENIG finish
may be more of a cost factor than the soldermask, but then I'd dread
the handling of the alternatives.

There are plenty of optimizations that make perfect sense if you're
going to produce millions of boards and can afford to burn a few
hundred boards on working the kinks out of the process. But that's not
a luxury we have with just a handful of prototypes.

> Well this depends where PCB/SMT is. Thinking China/Taiwan ?

For PCBs, that may be an option, depending on where we SMT. For SMT, I
don't expect to find the necessary flexibility and fluidity of
communication there. And it's also relatively far away from everybody
involved in the project, so travel would be a pain.

> I am, but raising that amount of money is not easy. We are not very
> well paid around here :P

Heh, what can I say, being ex-Openmoko and spending all my time on
gta02-core ... :)

> Since we are to stick with GE865, maybe we can order more units in
> advance. Of course we don't want you to pay for all that stuff, so
> we need a means to raise funds.

I would order based on the pre-orders. They're not *that* expensive,
maybe USD 80 apiece. So if I should end up with a few spares, that's
okay. The cost of not having enough is higher than the cost of having
too many.

Regarding payment, what I have to spend on the GSM modules would of
course be part of the final cost of the device.

I think I'll also GSM optional, in case someone wants just the board.
That doesn't add overhead and the price of the modules probably
doesn't change either.

>> - try to make them it do something, such as draw power and not smoke.
>
> (current limiter maybe ?) :P

Yup, a lab power supply will be handy. Beats the fire extinguisher ;-)

> We'll have to properly schedule this. When it comes out of fabric,
> you or someone should give it a try and be on IRC at same time, so
> we can quickly communicate with each others.

Sure. I also hope that some more folks may be interested to travel
to the SMT site. Testing the boards fresh from a new run is a fun
experience, one you can brag to your grandchildren about ;-)

> No scrap pile. We might be able to extract some stuff from it.

Yeah, just kidding :)

I'll get to the SMT site related questions in a bit.

- Werner

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Rask Ingemann Lambertsen-2

Re: gta02-core prototypes: distribution and finances

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On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 12:40:49PM -0300, Werner Almesberger wrote:

> When the first board comes out of SMT, we'll proceed as follows:
>
> - try to make them it do something, such as draw power and not smoke.

   Well, I doubt that it will draw smoke. ;-)

>   Maybe even talk to JTAG. In general, test as much as possible to
>   verify that there are no SMT errors, such a badly soldered parts,
>   misplaced or misoriented parts, or wrong parts. The emphasis here
>   is on "possible", not on "much". The SMT line can't wait forever
>   while we're performing a meticulous autopsy.

   How much time do we have? Would we be able to flash a boot loader and
then try to boot from an SD card?

--
Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
Danish law requires addresses in e-mail to be logged and stored for a year

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Flemming Richter

Re: gta02-core prototypes: distribution and finances

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On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 21:01, Dave Ball<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Werner Almesberger wrote:
>> So, with those first two who'll take one for the team, we're down
>> to 16 left. Hey, they're going fast ! ;-)
>>
>
> I'll take one, but might go for a second if the price ends up low in the
> estimated range.  You can never have too many gadgets :-)
>
> 15...

I consider to order one.
(I would like take a quick look at the final layout when/if
I get time but first I need to figure out how to view it)

14

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Dave Ball

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Flemming Richter wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 21:01, Dave Ball<[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> Werner Almesberger wrote:
>>    
>>> So, with those first two who'll take one for the team, we're down
>>> to 16 left. Hey, they're going fast ! ;-)
>>>
>>>      
>> I'll take one, but might go for a second if the price ends up low in the
>> estimated range.  You can never have too many gadgets :-)
>>
>> 15...
>>    
>
> I consider to order one.
> (I would like take a quick look at the final layout when/if
> I get time but first I need to figure out how to view it)
>
> 14
>  

Great.

Layout's not done yet, but schematics are close to complete now - a few
ECN's and some review still needed.

Two options to review - KiCAD or the occasional PDF's Werner uploads.  
To have a look through KiCAD, there is a great guide at [1]

Handy PDF's can be found at [2] (though a little out of date at the
moment), and I suspect there will be one for the layout too, eventually! :-)

Cheers,
Dave

[1] http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/gta02-core/docs/GETTING-STARTED
[2] http://people.openmoko.org/werner/gta02-core.html

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rakshat

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Flemming Richter wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 21:01, Dave Ball<openmoko@underhand.org> wrote:
>  
>> Werner Almesberger wrote:
>>    
>>> So, with those first two who'll take one for the team, we're down
>>> to 16 left. Hey, they're going fast ! ;-)
>>>
>>>      
>> I'll take one, but might go for a second if the price ends up low in the
>> estimated range.  You can never have too many gadgets :-)
>>
>> 15...
>>    
>
> I consider to order one.
> (I would like take a quick look at the final layout when/if
> I get time but first I need to figure out how to view it)
>
> 14
>  

  I am not reall ya contributor to GTA-core (no hardware skills) just a follower but if available I will take one unit.

So 13 left

Rakshat
Kosa

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Werner Almesberger escribió:

> Álvaro Lopes wrote:
>> Unless we find some more sponsors. Can we ?
>
> If you have suitable contacts, please try. I know of some sponsors
> for this sort of projects, but they tend to move very little money.
>
> At the end of the day, I have to ask myself if, say, a few hundred
> USD would really make all that much of a difference, and if it would
> be worth spending several days on negotiations, writing "thank you"
> letters, and such, instead of working on technical issues.

Is it writing to ask for donations to the  commuunity list an option? I
think there are lots of folks who might want to fund this effort. Some
of us know nothing about HW development, so getting a prototype is not a
good idea, but we could give some money to help you getting yours.

I could wirte the thank you letter :)

Kosa

- Un mundo mejor es posible -

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Nathael Pajani-2

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Kosa a écrit :

> Werner Almesberger escribió:
>> Álvaro Lopes wrote:
>>> Unless we find some more sponsors. Can we ?
>> If you have suitable contacts, please try. I know of some sponsors
>> for this sort of projects, but they tend to move very little money.
>>
>> At the end of the day, I have to ask myself if, say, a few hundred
>> USD would really make all that much of a difference, and if it would
>> be worth spending several days on negotiations, writing "thank you"
>> letters, and such, instead of working on technical issues.
>
> Is it writing to ask for donations to the  commuunity list an option? I
> think there are lots of folks who might want to fund this effort. Some
> of us know nothing about HW development, so getting a prototype is not a
> good idea, but we could give some money to help you getting yours.
>
> I could wirte the thank you letter :)
>
> Kosa
>
> - Un mundo mejor es posible -
>
> _______________________________________________
> gta02-core mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/gta02-core

Hey, this is a good idea !

I would not be able to afford a testing board at 500 euro (much less 1000 !), but I can
spend some time creating a site for donations (never did this, but it should not be so
hard, and I have a server available)

I would be OK to donate, just to see the project go on, becouse I think it is very
important to have this "base design" available, and I'm interrested in using such a base
design one day, to bring some of my ideas to life.

I have difficulties at performing reviews these times, I have to much work, and each time
I try to start again, I have some other stuff to fix to have everything running (fped mainly))

I hope I'll be able to in a near future, but I see no free time in the next 5 days

Though I had a review with a customer and there was someone who is doing 3D design, I sent
him the Openmoko 3D files and he will send me quotations for having some made, so we can
have an idea at how much would cost a case (made in France, so this may be a maximum, and
would certainly be cheaper in many other places).
He told me there are to possible technologies to have just a few made in a not too
expensive way: Stereolithography and ... I do not remember the other one (Sintering ?).
But he does not know what would be the long-term quality of such cases.

+++

Have fun.

--
Nathaël PAJANI
ED3L - Etude et Développement - Linux et Logiciels Libres
Internet : http://www.ed3l.fr

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Werner Almesberger

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Nathael Pajani wrote:
> and each time I try to start again, I have some other
> stuff to fix to have everything running (fped mainly))

Ah, what's the trouble ? I'm good at fixing fped ;-)

- Werner

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Walter Brill

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Hello all,

some weeks ago I have offered 500 EuroDollars for gta02-core but didn't
got any answer :-(

<[hidden email]>

Ciao
Walter

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Werner Almesberger

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Walter Brill wrote:
> some weeks ago I have offered 500 EuroDollars for gta02-core but didn't
> got any answer :-(
>
> <[hidden email]>

Oh, I'm sorry :-( [hidden email] is on an ancient machine
with poor spam filtering, so I use openmoko.org for almost everything
these days, and I can easily miss unexpected mails sent to the other
address.

Again, apologies. That must have come across as extremely rude :-(

If your offer is still valid, I would ask you for a little more
patience while we see if we can distribute such roles a bit more
evenly, and then decide on how to collect donations.

In any case, thanks a lot for your very generous offer !

- Werner

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Christopher Friedt

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I know that the gta02-core was originally not intended to be a
'production' run (i.e. mass quantities for sale), but if there is an
extra PCB left-over, and it fits in the original FR case, I would also
love to purchase one.

Recently I finished (power management aside) porting Linux (and
Android) to a device that uses something comparable to the SoC in the
FR, and I was actually _very_ impressed with how well the UI
responded, without any external graphics, just writing to the
framebuffer. Ditching the Glamo for this project was definitely a
solid idea.

I can most certainly help out with any kernel related issues, and even
do some minor board modifications after the fact.

C

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 10:55 PM, Werner Almesberger
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Walter Brill wrote:
>> some weeks ago I have offered 500 EuroDollars for gta02-core but didn't
>> got any answer :-(
>>
>> <[hidden email]>
>
> Oh, I'm sorry :-( [hidden email] is on an ancient machine
> with poor spam filtering, so I use openmoko.org for almost everything
> these days, and I can easily miss unexpected mails sent to the other
> address.
>
> Again, apologies. That must have come across as extremely rude :-(
>
> If your offer is still valid, I would ask you for a little more
> patience while we see if we can distribute such roles a bit more
> evenly, and then decide on how to collect donations.
>
> In any case, thanks a lot for your very generous offer !
>
> - Werner
>
> _______________________________________________
> gta02-core mailing list
> [hidden email]
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>

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