diagnosis issues

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debbie mcc

diagnosis issues

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Hi there,

I want to start by saying what an amazing forum - thank you so much - you've really helped me already.

I'd really appreciate any views or comments because like so many of you have been (all of you!) I'm getting muddled.  It think this maybe a long rant once I get going so I apologise in advance and will try and keep things clear.

I am a 44 year old woman in the UK who has been ill for 10 years now.  I am hypothyroid and have mild asthma. Ten  years ago I had two young children and let a full and active life - I was a mountaineer, went climbing, running etc and was a freelance editor.  I was getting increasingly tired and put it down to sleepless nights with kids etc.  I did notice that despite training my climbing etc was not improving and one day I went for a walk and really struggled - legs seemed very heavy and I could hardly move.  Eventually I was diagnosed by default with ME and life has been a nightmare ever since.  I cannot work, can hardly move etc and have a very limited life.  

Eventually I found a consultant who was prepared to admit that thyroid was not working and that even if my TSH was OK or indeed zero I still needed support and I was put on T3 as well as T4.  I have had been told by many a doc and consultant that this is unnecessary and I am just ill with ME.  The T3 made a big difference and I was able to speak, come out of the brain fog a bit.  

I then had gynae problems and despite years of complaining I was finally diagnosed with the worst case of endometrioisis they had seen and had a full hysteretcomy last year and was put on hrt - estrogen and progestereone patches.  Again after a long time of complaining of feeling light headed etc I was found to have very low ferritin although my HB count was good ( I eat a very healthy diet etc). In the UK getting tests done is  nightmare - they just do one at a time. Anyway after being on iron I made a good recovery after the op for a few months.  However I was losing hair - I thought before op it was because I was so rough but it got worse and worse and I have now been diagnosed with alopecia and have about 40% hair loss.  Since Jan this year I felt ill on eating so I did an exclusion diet and found that I could not eat wheat, gluten, corn, rye, cane sugar, yeast and so on and have diagnosed as coeliac (by default rather than by biopsy as I do not want to go back to eating wheat - my father had coeliac so it was not unexpected.  Also since the end of last year I have had patches of darker skin on my spine that for months I assumed were bruises from sitting down too much.  My skin marks very easily.

Other symptoms:
hyperpigmentation - on back, 4 circles of about 5 cm each; hysterecomy scar is getting darker, marks under breasts, blue black ring around anus and labia are same colour (sorry if too much info)
low testosterone (0.4) July 2009
low DHEA (2.48) July 2009

Really dizzy on standing and moving (this is new)
Very heavy neck (new)
Lots of headaches - full pressure ones (new)
Nausea (this is new)
Wobbliness (but often have this with ME etc)
Fatigue (ditto)
No libido (ditto)
Cold (ditto)
Ataxia (not new)
Back pain (new)
Abdo pain (not new)
My sweat smells bad (new)
Nails not growing (new)
Tan not fading (but I am very pale normally) so I just look OK rather than at death's door!
Skin has a faint yellow tint to it especially in artificial light
Want salty spice food but not an intense craving just a strong preference!
Teeth going soft and tiny black fissures in teeth appearing (mouth and tongue not black at all)
My lips taste salty (but I don't know if they do normally and I am just noticing it now!)

I have lowish heart rate about 56 bpm on rising
Blood pressure usually lowish - about 110/60 but not often measured, no idea about when standing


I have to keep increasing my T3 as lab results not improving T3 was 3.2 in sept and t4 was 14.4.  I take 200 mcg of thyroxine daily and 40 mcg of T3 (I think it is mcg).

My hrt patches are evorel conti.  I wear two at a time and each one contains 3.2 mg of estradiol releasing 50 mcg every 24 hours and 11,2 mg of norethisterone acetate - releasing 170 mcg every 24 hours - so thats 100 mcg and 340 mcg per day respectively.  My estradiol level was 247 in July 09.

I have also lost weight - about 8 lbs in 6 weeks despite being hypo
Frequency of micturition  - 12-16 times a day, 1-3 times after going to bed
Swollen lymph node in neck

etc etc  - getting too boring.

However I did have an ACTH test in June and it came back as 574 nmol/l after 30 min - normal (before all new symptoms above!).  But I have read that estrogen and thyroid hormones can increase CBG and therefore give false negative ACTH results (i.e. higher that they are in reality and therefore falsely normal).  I am not sure if I have interpreted it correctly.

MRI scan of brain shows no lesions therefore not MS.


So, to get to the point,
can anyone give me advise as to how to tackle the endocrinologist I am seeing next week?  
Can ACTH be false negative?  Should I come off estrogen, thyroid before test?  
Should I ask for more tests (but NHS budgets etc a prob especially if labelled 'fussy woman' by docs)
Does it seem like addison's to you?  What are key differences between addison's and ME and hypothyoidism?
Can hyperpigmentation vary over the day - my dark patches are darker at night and skin looks more gold at night
Why does sweat smell - this is the latest development!


Thank you so much for bearing with me during this essay - it is so hard to know where to start/stop.  I am sorry that the test results don't have units - it is hard to get any facts from doc.  


Thanks again for your time.

ShannonD

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Debbie,
I am sorry to hear that you feel so lousy.  

I do think the possiblity that you have addison's or low adrenal reserve is very high, and I think that if you get treated you will feel better.  

Almost every single symptom you list.....in fact every symptom you list is what I had prior to diagnosis......and my tests were inconclusive.

pressure headaches, light headedness with standing, teeth, strong odor to sweat, low libido......etc, etc.  I had all that.

But IN PARTICULAR:  The salty taste on lips.  (I would secrete salt onto my lips, palms, in my saliva....etc.) Addisons IS the SALT WASTING DISEASE.  I am not sure why doctors don't just call it this.  There are some other things that will make you get low serum sodium....but I really do not think there are many (or any) other illnesses that will cause you to waste salt through every pore of your skin. If you look back on these threads, I started one sometime in June or July asking about the salty taste in mouth.  Really, it is the least bothersome of the symptoms......but it is so peculiar.

If you have secondary addison's (secondary to pituitary dysfunction) the possibility of ACTH stim test being false negative or misinterpreted is high.  If you have secondary, your cortisol will double, and possibly quadruple, but it starts from a low cortisol.  And yes, you can hyperpigment with secondary.  With primary, the hyperpigmentation may make a white person look ethnic...but with secondary it is just a nice tan.  Most doctors will tell you this is not possible, but I have definitely read and heard from folks who say it can.  This is my explaination......pituitary starts to secrete less ACTH gradually.......this under stimulates adrenal.....which slowly starts to lag.  Once adrenal gland lags sufficiently, the pituitary gets the message....and gives all its got to get the cortisol up.....only the adrenal has already atrophied.  (there is another expaination of why secondaries hyperpigment which has to do with MSH.

Below is a quote from wikipedia, regarding ACTH stim test and how it reads for secondaries.  Do you know what your baseline cortisol level was??

Interpretation for secondary adrenal insufficiency
ACTH may stimulate cortisol by a factor doubling, tripling, quadrupling or more from a low base value in patients suffering from secondary adrenal insufficiency. Stimulation resulting in a greater than 14-fold increase in serum concentration over 30 minutes has been reported; however in most cases serum cortisol levels only double or triple and most start with a base cortisol value of at least 10 ug/dl. The lower the base cortisol value, the more likely the patient's cortisol will stimulate by a high factor if they are secondary adrenal insufficient.[9]

Take a read back to the threads I started, and some of the other threads which started in mid summer.....I talk a lot about my symptoms and the pressure headaches......very uncannily similar to what you are describing.

Have you ever had hemorrhage associated with pregnancy, or other hemorrhage, or head injury?

So, by the way, I feel basically fine now.  Much, much better.  The very first time I took florinef, the salty taste disappeared for the first time in 6 months.  It took a while for the head pressure to resolve....initially on the meds there was a waxing and waning course with the head, but now it is amost always gone (thank God!).  
My current regimen is:
Florinef 0.05mg twice daily
Hydrocortisone 7.5/5/5 (more if I exert myself or if fighting off illness)
DHEA 20mg daily
Pregnenololen 50mg daily (really helps me with head pressure if that happens, sometimes I will use it like an aspirin)
Testosterone 1mg daily
Progesterone, during the second half of my cycle.
T4/T3 (equivalent of 37.5 to 50mcg of synthroid a day)

And I feel great.  Technically, with my lab tests I did not meet criteria.  I realize that I may be on these meds for life.....the idea of which took me a while to swallow (no pun intended, HA!).  But the way I felt last summer was untenible.  The way I did get diagnosed was based on low serum sodium, VERY high urinary sodium, and the story of wasting salt from every pore of my skin....my doctor is pretty cool.  The endocrinologist I saw, white haired old fellow originally from South Africa, in US for past 30yrs, said my story.....hyperpigmentation, light headedness, salt wasting were textbook for clinical diagnosis of addison's... my cortisol was lowish.....my aldosterone was very lowish....(never had ACTH test for various reasons I will not go into).

Initially, this summer I was scared that the diagnosis was not right.... Now????? I can absolutely guarentee, this is what I had and what I have.  I just know.  So the upshot is that the labs are not as precise as the doctors want them to be.  

So take a look, see if your lab tests indicate secondary according to the above exerpt from wikipedia, I suspect it does.

I wish you the best of luck making your way through the medical system and diagnosis.  
Take care
Shannon
ashley

Re: diagnosis issues

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Hi Shannon,

I'm so glad to hear that you are feeling well on your regimen. I'm curious if you know what your current freeT3 and freeT4 are on the T3/T4 combo? Right now I take 100mcg T4 and 15mcg T3 - although this seems like a lot, my last labs were basically midrange:

free T4 1.4 (.9-1.8)
free T3 3.3  (2.3-4.2)
TSH .03 - low, but likely due to the pituitary adenoma according to Dr. F

My concern is that once my thyroid levels get to midrange (which is when my thyroid symptoms disappear) I seem to need more cortisol than average (this has happened before). I just had to increase from .25 DEX/5 HC (which seemed OK when my thyroid levels were low) to .375 DEX/5HC. Lowering my thyroid dose is not an option, since below midrange I get hypo. Just wondering why I might need more cortisol than most people.

ashley
ShannonD

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Ashley,

I think I have noticed similar issue.  Interesting thing is that when my T4/T3 is in midrange, and I am using a bit more cortisol (does not make me bloat or get heavy).  In fact, I think my metabolism is clicking a long at a good pace with the higher thyroid and a little more HC.

Only trick is that it is harder to go up and down on dose with dexamethasone and tell what is going on.

I do not think it is a problem.  It did make my skin and hair dry, because I was 'eating through' my bodies oils apparaently....but feeling good.  So, I take one flax, and one fish oil a day.  Now that I am on some DHEA, it seems to be balancing out again.

As I mentioned in one of my other posts, I am going to look into calcitonin as far as bone health (in addition to testosterone, and female hormone replacement when I go through menopause.

I would not worry about the thyroid unless you are feeling anxious or palpitations, shaky or sweaty.  And I think it is appropirate that you need more glucocorticoid.

Shannon
ashley

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Thank you - that's really helpful. Perhaps I shouldn't worry too much, but I don't want to overdose on steroid, obviously. I'll discuss it too with Dr. F when I have the chance.

ashley
ashley

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Debbie,

I agree that you most likely have an adrenal problem. The ACTH alone isn't much help in diagnosis, you should have a stimulation test. Your low DHEA and testosterone are also clues to underfunctioning adrenals. I hope your upcoming appt. is helpful!

ashley
Idaho Dusty

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Debbie,

You've done a great job describing your situation.  I hope you can get something out of other's experiences that will help you.

First off, what's ME?

Do you replace testo or DHEA?

Was the ACTH stim test 250 mcg?  From a journal abstract I've got, it says 550 nmol/L is the cut off for 30 minutes so you're barely above that.  Can you ask for the 1 microgram ACTH stim test, it's more accurate.  Can you get an MRI with CONTRAST of the PITUITARY (really important points).

Can you get the endo to switch you to bioidentical hormones?

Do you take progesterone?

can anyone give me advise as to how to tackle the endocrinologist I am seeing next week?  
*see above
 

Can ACTH be false negative?  
*I'm no doctor but in the decade of Addison's diagnosis and treatment, I've seen a lot of differences in interpretation of the ACTH stim test.


Should I come off estrogen, thyroid before test?
*I don't know.  Can you get the SHBG tested?  It might shed some insight as to why you need so much thyroid and still have hypo symptoms.

 
Should I ask for more tests (but NHS budgets etc a prob especially if labelled 'fussy woman' by docs)
*Yes, you should ask for more tests, you deserve to have a life and feel well.  My suggestion is to avoid discussing fatigue, depression and feelings.  Stick to obvious symptoms:  pigmentation, nausea, stink, bruising, tooth problems, slow heart rate, low blood pressure.


Does it seem like addison's to you?  
*Could be.  


What are key differences between addison's and ME and hypothyoidism?
*???

 
Can hyperpigmentation vary over the day - my dark patches are darker at night and skin looks more gold at night
*Don't know, sorry!


Why does sweat smell - this is the latest development!
*Smell like BO?  Ammonia?  Other?

Keep asking questions!

I hope that we can all work together to help you find some answers!

:) Dusty
debbie mcc

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Wow folks, thanks so much for taking the time to advise me - I do appreciate it.

Just to answer the questions/comments (not sure how to copy your previous messages into a new one so apologies for list!):
 1.  ME is Myalgic Encephalopathy or sometimes known as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
2.  The hrt is bio identical - certainly the estrogen bit is.  The progesterone is included in the patch but I don't think you can get bio identical prog in UK in a combined patch - at least you couldn't last year
3.  I'm not replacing testosterone or DHEA - not really done in UK - plus one endo said that testosterone was low because of T3 I'm taking but I don't know why and could not get an answer
4.  The acth stim test was the 250 mcg one and I can't find out what my baseline was to see how much it increased by; i've even found an article that says the cut off should be 580 nmol/l and I'll mention that to the endo I'm seeing;  I did ask for 1 microgram originally but was told it hasn't been done for years.I can't remember now why I wanted it!  One ends up fighting so many things...
5.  I'll ask for an MRI with contrast of pituitary - what does it do, what should I look for?
6.  Sorry for the ignorance but what is SHBG?
7.  My sweat smells just like high BO (according to my poor husband!) rather than ammonia - what's the significance?
8.  I'll certainly ask endo for tests and to consider primary/sec addison's plus anything else; in past symptoms have all been put down to auto immune diseases, the ME/Chronic Fatigue, bad lack etc
9.  Anyone know why the headaches/ heavy neck/pressure etc?  I see from previous comments it can be symptom - but this might be for those who already having treatment - but I do get muddled!  

Thanks again for all your help.

Best wishes,

Debbie


ShannonD

Re: diagnosis issues

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Debbie,

Definitely take the info about secondary AI with you, and find out what your baseline cortisol was.  One of the reasons that I am concerned that you could have secondary AI is that you had a low TSH (so could be that pituitary is not working well.) And as that exerpt from wikipedia mentions, your stim test may double (or even quadruple) with secondary AI, so the question is of the baseline cortisol.   Even still the 250mcg ACTH, is not very sensitive which is why some docs are doing the 1mcg IV test (to try to pick up more accurately folks with low adrenal reserve).  But this is reseach that has just been starting recently.  

There are actually docs out there, including Dr. Friedman (a widely popular doc on this web site), who are studying the connection between ME (CFS) and low adrenal reserve.  I will see if i can find some of the articles for you. Because it could be that you could benefit from cortisol......even if the tests are inconclusive.  Of course, if the tests were conclusive for AI then that would be good because you would have more information and solid basis for therapy.

I agree with Dusty, focus on the physical symptoms.

Have they checked your serum sodium recently?   I was having HORRIBLE pressure headaches at the begining of this summer, prior to diagnosis.  Turned out I was wasting so much salt that it was causing low osmolality (low electrolyte concentration) in my brain.....which causes the tissue to swell and can give aweful head pressure.  Both cortisol and aldosterone (florinef) regulate your cells holding onto electrolytes properly.  I do not know if this is what is happening to you.....but I can tell you that for me, being on medication regularly has helped immensely with head pressure. (it was a bit up and down when I first started medication)

I was also having the BO this summer.  I was having 'episodes' as follows: I would be in a stressful situation (work or something).  I would suddenly feel very dizzy, could not think straight, had horrible head pressure, felt like there was a vacuum suction from the center of my body pulling inwards on my heart, head, everything.  I would get extremely light headed (head rush pressure) when I would stand.  Weird thing was that I would almost INSTANTANEOUSLY get acne, body odor, oily, salty sweat.  I said it felt like my body was trying to mount a reaction to stress, but was making the wrong hormone (not cortisol).  Anyhow, I had to start taking 2 to 3 showers a day.  Previously in my life I could go for days (if necessary) because I was so dry.  So it was really unusual.  Again, since being on the cortisol, it has all turned around. When I had these episodes, I would drink a glass of salt water, which did help me feel better.  Sounds odd that salt water helped....but that's addison's for you.

If you run a dead end with the endocrinologist you are seeing, I will attach some endocrinologist in UK, who trained with Dr. Freidman in the US.

http://www.goodhormonehealth.com/contact_us/contact_us.html

Paul Michael Stewart, FRCP MD
Professor of Medicine
Endo
Univ of Birmingham
Institute of BioMedical Resear
Birmingham, B15 2TT United Kingdom
Phone: 44-121-6272381
Fax: 44-121-6272384
Email: p.m.stewart@bham.ac.uk
Clinical Practice Concentration: Adrenal Diseases and Disorders, General Endocrinology
& Metabolism, Pituitary Disorders
Ashley Grossman, FRCP MD
Professor
Dept of Endo
St Bartholomew's Hosp
West Smithfield
London, EC1A 7BE United Kingdom
Phone: 44-207-6018343
Fax: 44-207-6018505
Email: a.b.grossman@qmul.ac.uk
Clinical Practice Concentration: Pituitary Disorders, Ectopic Endocrine Syndromes
Peter James Trainer, BSc FRCP MBChB MD
Senior Lecturer
Dept of Endo
Christie Hospital
Wilmslow Road
Manchester, M2O 4BX United Kingdom
Phone: 44-161-446-3664
Fax: 44-161-446-3772
Email: peter.trainer@man.ac.uk
Clinical Practice Concentration: Adrenal Diseases and Disorders, Pituitary Disorders,
Thyroid Dysfunction

I really hope things go OK for you.  I am very suspiscious that you may have adrenal insufficiency or low adrenal reserve.   Your symptoms are SO SIMILAR to what I was having.

By the way, I do not think your low testosterone is due to thyroid.
SHBG stands for sex hormone binding globulin which has to be taken into account to accurately know what circulating free level of hormone is: testosterone, estrogen, or progesterone.  

But see what is going on with the adrenals first.  

Are you having oily skin with the odor?? If so, it is a consideration for your doc to do a 24 hour urine test for 17 hydroxy progesterone and 17 hydroxy pregnenolone (or 17 hydroxy ketosteroids).  These test for disruption of adrenal glands causing imbalance in hormones that can cause various forms of congenital adrenal hyperplasia.  If you are not having too oily of skin or hair growth, then this test is probably not necessary.

Hopefully not to confusing.

You are in my thoughts, I hope all goes smoothly as you work toward diagnosis.  Let us know how you are doing
Shannon
ShannonD

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Debbie,
Here you go...a place to start looking: about ME and cortisol

http://chronicfatigue.about.com/b/2008/01/18/cdc-studies-cortisol-chronic-fatigue-syndrome.htm

Turns out CDC is looking into, so not just closet medicine. Also 'google' : 'chronic fatigue cortisol', and see what pops up.
Shannon
debbie mcc

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Shannon

Thanks so much for all the info and links - you're amazing.  Dr. F (I now know who this is!) seems pretty good too!  Your episodes in the summer sound just like me!  It is reassuring to know that I am not just making it up...

Thanks too for the links to the UK endos - how did you find the info - I've been struggling to find a specialist let alone lists of their specialities.  Paul Stewart at Birmingham was on my list to see (I found his name through research papers) but he is not seeing any patients - NHS or privately (my Mum was prepared to pay).  But I am seeing someone else at Birmingham so hopefully he may have a more up to date outlook.

Thanks again for the encouragement.  I'll keep you posted.  

Debbie  
Idaho Dusty

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Hi Debbie,

I'll ask for an MRI with contrast of pituitary - what does it do, what should I look for?
Pituitary adenomas are very small and need to be looked for specifically.  Really small adenomas on the pituitary can have some big effects.

Sorry for the ignorance but what is SHBG?
OOOOPPPS!  Sex Hormone Binding GlobulinIn postmenopausal women, SHBG, testosterone, and estrogen concentrations decrease as hormone production by the ovaries tapers off.
Bioavailable testosterone is becoming an increasingly important concept to both doctors and researchers. It may be measured by removing the SHBG-bound testosterone from the collected blood sample and then analyzing what’s left. An estimate can also be calculated using the Free Androgen Index (see above).

Although SHBG is not usually ordered to diagnose or monitor these conditions, increases in SHBG are seen with liver disease, hyperthyroidism, anorexia, and estrogen use (hormone replacement therapy and oral contraceptives). Decreases in SHBG are seen with obesity, hypothyroidism, androgen use, and Cushing’s disease.


My sweat smells just like high BO (according to my poor husband!) rather than ammonia - what's the significance?   Just wanted to know so I could do more research if you said you smelled metallic or like lemons or plain old BO.

Anyone know why the headaches/ heavy neck/pressure etc?  I see from previous comments it can be symptom - but this might be for those who already having treatment - but I do get muddled!  I don't know.  I get migraine with aura and have for nearly 30 years. My migraines have nothing to do with Addison's.  Shannon's experience is much closer to yours.  Earlier this summer, she posted some about her headaches.

Have a great weekend!  Keep asking questions!!

:) Dusty
dollsie

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Hi Debbie,

Sorry in advance for the length of this post!!

I agree with everything the others here have said and am truly sorry to hear that you're suffering. There are aspects of what you've described that certainly sound suggestive of AI. I would strongly suggest the low-dose stim test as well (unless your previous results -starting cortisol level- bring something to light). The ME could be an accompaniment to AD, or could simply be a manifestation of it.

I had 4 stim tests before I was diagnosed! Although I wouldn't wish the experience on my worst enemy, I did learn about all of the things that can adversely affect the outcome of that test (cloud the results). Here goes:

During the first one, I'd been taking birth control pills (estrogen), had a radioactive injection (for a CT scan), and a complete bowel prep (for a colonoscopy) the night before. I was also severely hypothyroid. All of these factors can artificially elevate cortisol levels. Additionally, the test itself was given improperly. So my results looked "normal" even though the extra ACTH sent me into crisis. I crashed 2 hours later, when I was put under twilight anesthesia for the colonoscopy, and the docs were dumbfounded. I'd presented to the ER in complete crisis a few days earlier. Despite my labs, which showed high Ca/eosinophils, high K, low Na/osmolality, complete metabolic acidosis, etc (and the fact that I'd collapsed and was completely incoherent) I was told that I'd had a panic attack.

The other symptoms, including what you've describe, were present. I was orange and had lost 20 lbs, was peeing like a racehorse even on a fluid restriction, had major orthostatic problems and so much pain. But I was discharged with no diagnoses except possible Celiac, what they thought was diabetes insipidus, and depression. I went back with acute pancreatitis (presumably from high Ca from Addison's) which was missed despite my labs, and had a heart attack which was also overlooked (yes, this is true) once the docs saw the previous discharge summary stating depression/anxiety as a possible diagnosis.

The second stim test should have been diagnostic (started at 6 and stimmed to 15) but the attending didn't consult with an endo despite my request, and I was discharged again with no diagnosis except anemia. I have learned since then that in a small person (I am 95lbs) the standard 250mg test results can be misleading because our bodies would NEVER produce that much ACTH at one time.

The third test was abandoned prematurely because I started going into crisis, and the fourth was given the following morning after a stress dose of Dex - but my endo said that one was "void" because my adrenals had been "primed" the day before. So the diagnosis was actually made in retrospect, although I'd been asking my docs about Addison's for months. Like so many others on this site, I learned to be my own advocate. All of the tests that have confirmed all of my other diagnoses are ones that I've demanded. It's unbelieveable how many obvious things can be missed by doctors.

I found this list (below) of symptoms as reported on a 1997 survey of Addison's patients. From my limited understanding of ME, it seems like many of the symptoms are the same. You're probably already familiar with it since it was performed in the UK, but just in case...here's the link to the full survey:

http://www.addisons-network.co.uk/ad_survey_final_report.html

Sign or symptom:

1 Fatigue 93.9%

2 Abdominal pain/'stomach ache' 93.0%

3 Muscle pain 92.0%

4 Painful feet 88.0%

5 Extra sleep requirement 87.0%

6 Exercise intolerance 83.5%

7 Leg cramps 83.0%

8 Postural hypotension 83.0%

9 Lack of concentration 81.4%

10 'Thinking through fog' 79.6%

11 Loss of appetite 78.8%

12 Nausea 77.8%

13 Body weight loss 77.8%

14 Slow recovery (illness, etc.) 76.0%

15 Irritability 75.2%

16 Stress intolerance 74.5%

17 Thin dry skin 73.4%

18 Inappropriate tanning 72.9%

19 Salt craving 72.7%

20 Diarrhoea or loose stools 72.5%

21 Hypoglycaemic attacks 72.4%

22 Loss of libido 71.8%

23 Poor memory 71.4%

24 Loss of balance 70.4%

25 Mood swings 70.2%

26 Headaches/migraines 66.3%

27 Temperature intolerance 66.3%

28 Disorientation 66.3%

29 Insomnia 66.0%

30 Muscular spasms or 'twitches' 66.0%

31 Hypotension 65.2%

32 Anxiety 64.6%

33 Prone to infections 64.3%

34 Excessive flatus 59.2%

35 Tingling skin/'pins & needles' 59.2%

36 Increased/excessive thirst 58.6%**

37 Vomiting 58.6%

38 Light sensitivity/night blindness 58.2%

39 Constipation 58.1%

40 Brittle nails 56.3%

41 Dry nose/mouth 56.1%

42 Night sweats 55.1%

43 Tinnitus 54.1%

44 Dry/stinging eyes 52.5%

45 Palpitations 52.5%

46 Loss of body hair 50.5%

47 Visual 'after-images' 48.5%

48 Excessive sweating 48.0%

49 Indigestion/'heartburn' 48.0%

50 Thin dry wispy air 44.9%

51 Irregular periods § 44.3%

52 Poor grip 42.9%

53 Startle reflex 42.4%

54 Spontaneous/easy bruising 41.4%

55 Increased no. motions*** 40.3%

56 Tachycardia 39.8%

57 Numb patches skin/muscle 37.1%

58 Prone to joint/muscle injury 30.2%

59 Fluid retention 22.4%

60 Herpes zoster infection 21.0%††

61 'Hives' 20.6%

62 Bradycardia 20.4%

63 Hypertension 13.4%

64 Body weight gain 11.1%

65 Body weight static 11.1%

66 EB virus infection 10.8%††

67 Cholecystectomy 8.0%

68 Joint pain 8.0%

Hope your endo is willing to work with you, and if not, that you can find another one quickly! Best wishes to you...

Take care,
Leigh
Idaho Dusty

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Debbie,

I came across this by accident and thought it might be of interest to you.  It requires a free membership to medscape.com.

Cortisol and Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Gonadal Axis Hormones in Follicular-Phase Women With Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Effect of Depressive Symptoms on These Hormones

:) Dusty
debbie mcc

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Thanks so much for all the info and evidence everyone - it is REALLY helpful.  i'm getting a good file ready for my appointment on Tuesday - just hope I don't scare the "poor" consultant and it backfires - I've done that before!
All the very besgt,

Debbie
debbie mcc

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Hello, I wanted to let you know how I got on yesterday.  I'm afraid to say that it was an absolute disaster.

The endo was rude and difficult.  The hospital is about 75 mins from my house and I get sick when travelling.  I had planned to go for a wee walk before the appt but I felt too ill.  The drive made things worse - I had the nausea, light headedness, stiff heavy neck, really weak and so on.  At least I thought they could see me when I was rough.  However, it started badly.  I had typed up a full medical history, family med history, list of symptoms and details of when/how often and so on - and photos to show weight loss and darker skin (though I'm still pale! just not deathly white!).  The guy did not want to know - he said he wanted to hear it from me.  Well this wan't great as I get easily muddled with words, can't remember things etc - hence the list.  So I started by saying alopecia - as it's obvious, and he said that that wasn't a symptom!  I didn't know what he meant - and by this time I was getting anxious.  I was already weak and ill, nervous about the appointment as my past experiences have not been good plus the nurses had already said that this was a follow-up appt when I was a new patient etc.  He was not interested in the saltyness, the headaches, the sweat and so on. So I started getting the shakes in my hands.  

I was examined and despite brown marks on my back and darkening scars he said that he couldn't see any hyperpig - it is not in mouth or on hands; he did not look at labia etc despite there being discolouration there as I told him.  I could hardly stand up and I needed support when he took blood pressure - this was 120/70 but I went tachycardic with the effort.  This combined with the shakes led him to say that I was on too much T3 (for hypothyroidism).  

This was so annoying - I have spent years trying to get T3 - I bought it privately for a number of years but this meant that the GP (docs) did not like it; I got it properly earlier this year from another NHS consultant.  Not only that but I'm sure some of you know there is a lot of controversy over free T3/T4 measurements etc and some docs don't think that anyone hypo needs T3.  Without T3 I am even more of a wreck - I get weepy and can't handle things. My recent T3 test (sept) showed a low level T3 (3.2) so another endo (who knows nothing about addisons etc) increased it.

We asked about CBG and SHBG and he said they made no diff to short synacthen results - I had printed out journal abstracts but he was not interested.  I had articles about the cut off point for the same test - mine was 574n mol in July and I have papers recommending 580 and 600 - but he just said that here it was 550 and that was it.  I asked for saliva test, or the 24 urinary test - was told we don't do them, I asked for scas and was told that there was no evidence that I needed a scan and so on - a complete nightmare.  I was humiliated and really felt rubbish.  He did do some basic blood tests and will talk to a colleague about doing another short synachten test.  But all he cared about was the tachy.  

I am not normally tachy at all - in fact the opposite.  But if I get anxious and stressed then I can do - it happened once post op, and sometimes after I get stressed with kids/difficult phone calls etc  I'm a bit anxious now typing this up too so feel wobbly.  But from what I understand, and please correct me if I am wrong, the shakes etc are caused when body is not well eg when standing and trying to stop blood pressure dropping.  And in Addison's the body does not cope well with stress - hence tachy/shakes etc.

So I'm really fed up - I can't seem to find a consultant in the Uk who knows about addisons who takes on patients (at Birmingham UK which is my nearest city, there are several who won't see anyone); I would like someone who is up to date, who understands T3, all the binding globulin stuff etc.  Obviously its not that I want to be ill and I don't want to be on steroids - but I do not want to feel this ill.

So does anyone know how to find a consultant in the UK - and really find out what their interests are.  General endos don't seem to have any experience or interest.  We will even pay for it - and given I can't work money is pretty tight but I don't know if we can afford test etc.  Does anyone have any good experiences.  I know Shannon very kindly suggested a few folks above but I can't find out if the consultants are open minded or what their experience is.  Paul Stewart who was my first choice anyway does not see real people - reseach only; his secretary recommended the guy I saw (the secretaries sit opposite each other) and his secretary said he did know about Addison's - but this was not the case!  He only knew about the typical tongue discolouration etc.  So I'm losing confidence about who/what info to trust!  


I'm really sorry this is so long - I just don't know what to do next.  

Thanks as always,

Debbie
galliar

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Debbie,

Never, Never, Never, give up!  Some of these Dr's think they are God incarnate and it makes me angry!

I went to an endo about 3 months ago and I was excited about the appointment because I believed somebody would care.  I had a list of questions and he ignored me.  Then he pointed to his plaques up on the wall which were awards from a medical society.  Finally, my wife got very mad and told him that we are only here to be helped and we need some advice.  I told him I really didn't care about his plaques, that the medical society can award him all he wants, but I will be the final judge.  Needless to say, he walked out never to come back again!  He left us in the office and sent a nurse to finish up.  It turns out my resting cortisol level for an ACTH test he had me take was 3.  He didn't think this was low.  His own liturature on the medical groups website written about how to give an ACTH test stated that a resting value of less than 18 suggests adrenal insufficiency.  Anyway, he referred me to a splendid Dr., a woman who was 50x more compassionate from the start.  She said I had Addison's after all the testing.  Her only concern was that she didn't cause osteoporosis down the road, so she was very cautious.  I just had a bone scan, and hopefully after 20 years of cortisol it will come out fine.

The lesson:  You are in charge of your health.  Study as hard as you can.  Look at values (not necessarily out of lab ranges but often borderline) like BUN being high, calcium, sodium being low, low body temp, low blood pressure (during the crisis times), high renin, low Aldosterone (for primary), low White Blood Cell count, and one of the bigger indicators, hypoglycemia.  When several of these line up, it is a pretty good indicator.

Anyway, we will be praying you to find the proper Dr. and get the correct diagnosis.

Regards,

Randy.
Idaho Dusty

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Debbie,

Sorry your appointment was such a disaster.  Don't give up!  This doctor gave you a clear indication that he's not the one for you.  You know there is something wrong.  Keep looking for answers!  Don't apologize for writing a long post or for being frustrated.  You are definitely in the one place where people understand your frustration and have had similar frustrations.  You can vent here.

The Yahoo Addisons Disease Health Groups board:  http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Addisons_Disease has a lot of Europeans.  Perhaps there is someone there that can help you find a doctor?  Mike, the guy who runs the board, is full of information and he's from England.  

I hope that we can all work together to help you find a solution to your problem!

:)  Dusty
debbie mcc

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Hi Randy and Dusty,

Thanks for your thoughts and kind words! I've posted on the yahoo group too now, so hopefully I'll get some recommendations soon.  I'll let you know if/when I get any blood results back too.  Though as I now think I might have been having a hypoglycaemic moment with shakes etc I don't know if this will affect results!

Thanks again for your support everyone.

All the best,

Debbie
ShannonD

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Debbie,

Reading your story makes me tachycardic!!!! Ugh, I feel frustrated and angry for/with you.  Like Dusty said, this doc is not for you (and I cannot imagine for anybody).  Like Randy said, don't give up.  My first doctor really treated me poorly as well.  

Aside from that list I sent, a couple posts ago, here are some other thoughts:
Get on the web site below, and see if they list any doctors, or if you can get on the forum for recommendations.  I have read Dr. Peatfield's book, and despite the way he was treated in the UK, I think he is plenty smart (in fact possible better than the close minded crotchety docs).  Anyhow, just because these folks are focused on thyroid, the are WELL AWARE of the inter-functioning of thyroid and adrenals.  
http://www.thyroiduk.org/

Another couple web sites to look at:
www.acamnet.org  or
http://www.acamnet.org/site/apps/kb/cs/contactsearch.asp?c=ltJWJ4MPIwE&b=5457441&raw=
On the main page, under "PUBLIC", go to physician link.  Check to see if the UK zip code works in the search field.  If not, simply call the 1-800 number.  These doctors have varying levels of integrative training, so you would want to find one which does hormone stuff.  But almost guarenteed to be a more open minded, nice doctor than the one you saw.

And another place to look:
www.worldhealth.net
http://www.worldhealth.net/pages/directory/
Again, you want to find one of these docs who is familiar with using hormone replacement (not just supplements/vitamins).  THis group educates doctors in modules, and there are modules specific to hormones, so it might be worth finding out if the doc has done the hormone module. Again, these docs will generally be more understanding and open minded.

Of the above, I think that your best bet might be with the thyroid uk forum, or contacting Peatfield directly and seeing if he can recommend a doc.  I would be suprised if Dr. Peatfield would not be able to tell you just by your story, that you would benefit from cortisol replacement.  

I really hope this is helpful.  Please let me know how things progress. I am thinking of you.
Shannon
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