copyright notice ?

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Jimmy J. Johnson
copyright notice ?
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Dear ES,

Do you have a standard recommended/required copyright notice which I
can/must use when destributing eiffel classes developed with the free
version?

Where should it go in the file?  Beginning or end or either?

Thanks,

jjj


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Emmanuel Stapf
RE: copyright notice ?
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Hi,

As long as you state that your code is freely available, there is no issue with
the GPL license. If you want to have a license, you can choose among the GPL
compatible one and the way to specify it in the Eiffel class text is to do the
same it is done in class ANY for example.

Regards,
Manu

> -----Original Message-----
> From: eiffel_software@...
> [mailto:eiffel_software@...] On Behalf Of Jimmy J. Johnson
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 11:06 AM
> To: eiffel_software@...
> Subject: [eiffel_software] copyright notice ?
>
> Dear ES,
>
> Do you have a standard recommended/required copyright notice which I
> can/must use when destributing eiffel classes developed with the free
> version?
>
> Where should it go in the file?  Beginning or end or either?
>
> Thanks,
>
> jjj
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


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Paul Cohen
Re: copyright notice ?
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In reply to this post by Jimmy J. Johnson
Hi

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 8:06 PM, Jimmy J. Johnson <boxer41a@...> wrote:
> Do you have a standard recommended/required copyright notice which I
> can/must use when destributing eiffel classes developed with the free
> version?

You should be aware of the difference between copyright and license.
The copyright states who "owns" the code and who decides the license.
The license states what the conditions for other people to "use" the
code are. As copyright holder you are free to change the license at
your will. You can also choose to give up your claim to ownership and
thus the copyright by putting the code in to "public domain".

As to the license I would recommend either GPL  if you are committed
to the philosophy of FSF and the importance of "free" software (or
rather LGPL if you want to release a class library; however I don't
think LGPL really holds for source code libraries, it's written for
binary libraries). Otherwise I would very much suggest you choose to
license your code with the Eiffel Forum License. See "Why The Eiffel
Forum License is Awesome":

http://inamidst.com/stuff/eiffel/

> Where should it go in the file? Beginning or end or either?

One convention is to put tags in the indexing clause of all your classes:

     copyright: "Copyright (c) 2008  Jimmy J. Johnson"
     license: "Eiffel Forum License, version 2"

You should also make sure that you distribute a copy of the Eiffel
Forum License with your code.

/Paul
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Eric Bezault
Re: copyright notice ?
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Paul Cohen wrote:

> Otherwise I would very much suggest you choose to
> license your code with the Eiffel Forum License. See "Why The Eiffel
> Forum License is Awesome":
>
> http://inamidst.com/stuff/eiffel/
>
>> Where should it go in the file? Beginning or end or either?
>
> One convention is to put tags in the indexing clause of all your classes:
>
>      copyright: "Copyright (c) 2008  Jimmy J. Johnson"
>      license: "Eiffel Forum License, version 2"
>
> You should also make sure that you distribute a copy of the Eiffel
> Forum License with your code.

The Gobo project was using the Eiffel Forum License until
OSI contacted to NICE to convince them that the license was
redundant and that we should use the MIT license instead.
I didn't want to be alone to switch to MIT, but a quick
survey at that time made me think that Eiffel projects
using the Eiffel Forum License would switch to MIT if the
Gobo project did. So I switched Gobo to use the MIT license.
But somehow very few other Eiffel projects made the move.
ePosix made it only very recently.

Now, after reading this article, I don't know what to think.
Should the Eiffel community use the Eiffel Forum License
(because it's a good license and it's a sign of identity)
despite being marked as redundant by OSI? Or should it use
a widely used license such as the MIT license in order to
show some presence of Eiffel outside of the Eiffel community?

--
Eric Bezault
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http://www.gobosoft.com

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Paul Cohen
Re: copyright notice ?
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On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:10 AM, Eric Bezault <ericb@...> wrote:

> Paul Cohen wrote:
>> Otherwise I would very much suggest you choose to
>> license your code with the Eiffel Forum License. See "Why The Eiffel
>> Forum License is Awesome":
>
> The Gobo project was using the Eiffel Forum License until
> OSI contacted to NICE to convince them that the license was
> redundant and that we should use the MIT license instead.
> I didn't want to be alone to switch to MIT, but a quick
> survey at that time made me think that Eiffel projects
> using the Eiffel Forum License would switch to MIT if the
> Gobo project did. So I switched Gobo to use the MIT license.
> But somehow very few other Eiffel projects made the move.
> ePosix made it only very recently.
>
> Now, after reading this article, I don't know what to think.
> Should the Eiffel community use the Eiffel Forum License
> (because it's a good license and it's a sign of identity)
> despite being marked as redundant by OSI? Or should it use
> a widely used license such as the MIT license in order to
> show some presence of Eiffel outside of the Eiffel community?

I like the EFL (Eiffel Forum License) because a) it's short and easy
to understand and b) it has "Eiffel" in its name! I was also
considering the MIT license but the above mentioned article convinced
me that the EFL is the way to go unless you want to either go "free"
with GPL/LGPL or "closed" with your own propietary license.

However I do not want to disturb the Gobo project with issues that
don't have to do with the production of code! ;-)

/Paul

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Berend de Boer
Re: copyright notice ?
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In reply to this post by Eric Bezault
>>>>> "Eric" == Eric Bezault <ericb@...> writes:

    Eric> Now, after reading this article, I don't know what to think.
    Eric> Should the Eiffel community use the Eiffel Forum License
    Eric> (because it's a good license and it's a sign of identity)
    Eric> despite being marked as redundant by OSI? Or should it use a
    Eric> widely used license such as the MIT license in order to show
    Eric> some presence of Eiffel outside of the Eiffel community?

People know what the MIT license means. Making sure projects use
compatible licensing can be very expensive. You don't want a discussion
with the company lawyers if you are introducing Eiffel in an
organisation.

I still think that moving to MIT is a good decision. But perhaps the
libraries that depend on Gobo need to be prodded a bit more to update
their license. It's just laziness as it is low on the priority list.

--
Cheers,

Berend de Boer

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Jimmy J. Johnson
Re: copyright notice ?
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Thanks to all for the wealth of information provided.  I read many of
the links provided.  Let me see if I got this right.  It seems to me
that the licenses such as efl allows:

1) anyone to do anything with the code [and programs?] as long as they
give credit to the author.
2) users must include, perpetually, a reference to the license.
3) frees the developer for any liability

If I doesn't care who or for what reason my code may be used then is #3
the reason for some copyright or license?

Manu, you said no problem if I state my code is freely usable.  If
there is no notice couldn't anyone just use it freely anyway?

jjj


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Paul Cohen
Re: Re: copyright notice ?
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On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 3:08 AM, Jimmy J. Johnson <boxer41a@...> wrote:

> Thanks to all for the wealth of information provided. I read many of
> the links provided. Let me see if I got this right. It seems to me
> that the licenses such as efl allows:
>
> 1) anyone to do anything with the code [and programs?] as long as they
> give credit to the author.
> 2) users must include, perpetually, a reference to the license.
> 3) frees the developer for any liability
>
> If I doesn't care who or for what reason my code may be used then is #3
> the reason for some copyright or license?

I should fist say that I'm not a lawyer. :-)

It's important to understand that copyright and license are not the
same thing, Copyright is a legal concept for giving the author of a
work exclusive rights to a piece of work. A license is a document
stating the permission and conditions for using something, which has
been agreed to by the user and the copyright holder.

Actually, there are people who argue that software licenses are
actually unnecessary. The fact that you have the "copyright" means
that you have full control over how your work can by copied and
redistributed - even in the absence of licenses or other statements or
documents. And the copyright law in most countries gives you all the
legal protection you need. I.e. any user of your work has to get the
consent from you, the copyright holder, before they can copy or
redistribute it. And when they ask consent you can of course state the
conditions for them to copy or redistribute your work.

The question of liability has to do with the circumstances under which
the other part got your work. If you explicitly claimed that your code
gives the user of your work certain benefits or positive effects,
there may be an issue of liability. If you don't then I think it's
more a question of how the law is written and applied regarding
liability issues in your country. The US is notorious for very weird
liability cases, so maybe that's the reason that so many software
licenses have those liability disclaimer clauses in capital letters.

So to actually answer your question: #3 is probably the most common
reason for people to add a *license* containing a disclaimer
statement.

Also, #2 is incomplete. It should read " and make sure that copyright
notices are retained unchanged.".

Finally regarding #1, there is no requirement to give credit to the
author. However, since copyright notices must be retained, everyone
can see who the original author is.

> Manu, you said no problem if I state my code is freely usable. If
> there is no notice couldn't anyone just use it freely anyway?

The important thing is whether you want to keep your copyright on the
code or not. If not you should state explicitly somewhere that you are
putting it into the public domain.

Also, be sure you know what you mean by term "free" when discussing
software! I think that the FSF/GNU definition of free software is
extremely good: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html. But not
all people agree with or understand "free software" to mean the same
thing.

In the end, copyright law and licensing issues for software is
complicated matter. Basically because it's a human bureaucrat
invention and the application of laws is a complicated bureaucratic
process. Usually it boils down to the fact that the part with most
power and/or money and/or the best lawyers gets it their way in the
end!

My recommendation to you would be to keep the copyright and use the
Eiffel Forum License. It is simple, easy to understand, OSI approved
and GPL compliant. Remember, since you have the copyright you are free
to change the license, or remove it, whenever you want.

/Paul

"LAWYER, n. One skilled in circumvention of the law." - Ambrose Bierce
in The Devil's Dictionary.

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David Broadfoot
RE: Re: copyright notice ?
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> I should fist say that I'm not a lawyer. :-)

Nor a speller!  :-)


> My recommendation to you would be to keep the copyright and use the
> Eiffel Forum License. It is simple, easy to understand, OSI approved
> and GPL compliant. Remember, since you have the copyright you are free
> to change the license, or remove it, whenever you want.

However, there is one issue I haven't seen discussed...

Yes, you have the right to change your licence whenever you want, but
there is the complication regarding contributions.

Take the situation with ESI Eiffel's dual licensing. If someone using
the GPL licence makes a change to the code (e.g. added a line of code to
fix a bug), then ESI would not be able to include it in their general
code-base because the contribution would be GPLed. True?

David



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Paul Cohen
Re: Re: copyright notice ?
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On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 12:14 PM, David Broadfoot <david@...> wrote:
>> I should fist say that I'm not a lawyer. :-)
>
> Nor a speller! :-)

I know my speling is not 100% correct. ;-)

>> My recommendation to you would be to keep the copyright and use the
>> Eiffel Forum License. It is simple, easy to understand, OSI approved
>> and GPL compliant. Remember, since you have the copyright you are free
>> to change the license, or remove it, whenever you want.
>
> However, there is one issue I haven't seen discussed...
>
> Yes, you have the right to change your licence whenever you want, but
> there is the complication regarding contributions.
>
> Take the situation with ESI Eiffel's dual licensing. If someone using
> the GPL licence makes a change to the code (e.g. added a line of code to
> fix a bug), then ESI would not be able to include it in their general
> code-base because the contribution would be GPLed.

Why not? If the contributer (who has the copyright) says "here ESI,
please accept this code. I withdraw all copyright claims to this code"
there is no problem whatsoever. This is the typical case when
submitting code fixes or improvements.

/Paul

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Thomas Beale-3
Re: Re: copyright notice ?
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Paul Cohen wrote:
 >
 >
 > I should fist say that I'm not a lawyer. :-)
 >
 > It's important to understand that copyright and license are not the
 > same thing, Copyright is a legal concept for giving the author of a
 > work exclusive rights to a piece of work. A license is a document
 > stating the permission and conditions for using something, which has
 > been agreed to by the user and the copyright holder.
 >
 > Actually, there are people who argue that software licenses are
 > actually unnecessary. The fact that you have the "copyright" means

I'm no lawyer either, but I would have said it was the other way round.
Copyright is about identifying an author with a 'work' of some kind, and
is designed for the situation where the work, such as a painting, book,
play etc, is published, and is, by its nature, unchanging. Copyright
prevents someone else claiming the work is theirs. In the software
world, I don't think it is that useful - consider a source file that was
written by wiley e. coyote of Acme enterprises, but modified over the
years by 20 more people, all from different places. With whom should the
resulting file be identified? No-one cares much - but they do care about
the rights to modify, use, copy etc. So I think that the license is the
key legal artefact with respect to software.

- thomas beale



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Paul Cohen
Re: Re: copyright notice ?
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On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Thomas Beale
<Thomas.Beale@...> wrote:

> Paul Cohen wrote:
>> It's important to understand that copyright and license are not the
>> same thing, Copyright is a legal concept for giving the author of a
>> work exclusive rights to a piece of work. A license is a document
>> stating the permission and conditions for using something, which has
>> been agreed to by the user and the copyright holder.
>>
>> Actually, there are people who argue that software licenses are
>> actually unnecessary. The fact that you have the "copyright" means
>
> I'm no lawyer either, but I would have said it was the other way round.
> Copyright is about identifying an author with a 'work' of some kind, and
> is designed for the situation where the work, such as a painting, book,
> play etc, is published, and is, by its nature, unchanging. Copyright
> prevents someone else claiming the work is theirs. In the software
> world, I don't think it is that useful - consider a source file that was
> written by wiley e. coyote of Acme enterprises, but modified over the
> years by 20 more people, all from different places. With whom should the
> resulting file be identified? No-one cares much - but they do care about
> the rights to modify, use, copy etc. So I think that the license is the
> key legal artefact with respect to software.

No it's not.

The usual practice in the industry is that if you work for a company
you agree, by employee contract or by the law in your country, to
transfer the copyright for all software you write (as an employee) to
the company you work for. Whether this is a proper or fair arrangement
for society at large is debatable, but its the way it works today.

The copyright is the legal concept for identifying who, or rather
which legal entity, owns the software.

So, in your example, it doesn't matter which employee of Acme
enterprises originally wrote the software or later modified it, the
code is copyrighted (owned) by Acme enterprises. The license only
regulates what the customers of Acme enterprises, who have bought or
been given a copy of the software, are entitled to do with the
software.

/Paul

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Paul Cohen
Re: Re: copyright notice ?
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On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Paul Cohen <paco@...> wrote:
> The copyright is the legal concept for identifying who, or rather
> which legal entity, owns the software.

I should emphasize that it is only the copyright holder who can decide
if there is to be a license or not, and if so which license or
licenses are to be used

/Paul

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Thomas Beale-3
Re: Re: copyright notice ?
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In reply to this post by Paul Cohen
Paul Cohen wrote:
 >

 > > the rights to modify, use, copy etc. So I think that the license is the
 > > key legal artefact with respect to software.
 >
 > No it's not.
 >
 > The usual practice in the industry is that if you work for a company
 > you agree, by employee contract or by the law in your country, to
 > transfer the copyright for all software you write (as an employee) to
 > the company you work for. Whether this is a proper or fair arrangement
 > for society at large is debatable, but its the way it works today.
 >

Sorry - I thought we were talking about open source software - in which
case (in general), there is no company involved, only individuals -
copyright in the first instance vests in the original contributors.

- thomas



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David Broadfoot
RE: Re: copyright notice ?
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In reply to this post by Paul Cohen
> > Take the situation with ESI Eiffel's dual licensing. If someone
using
> > the GPL licence makes a change to the code (e.g. added a line of
code to
> > fix a bug), then ESI would not be able to include it in their
general
> > code-base because the contribution would be GPLed.
>
> Why not? If the contributer (who has the copyright) says "here ESI,
> please accept this code. I withdraw all copyright claims to this code"
> there is no problem whatsoever. This is the typical case when
> submitting code fixes or improvements.


Yes, but it requires that explicit action to be taken.

DB



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