Your open source career

[Tyler Mitchell (OSGeo)]

Hi everyone,
We've probably all heard of the typical business models for open  
source companies, but I'm working on a few slides for a presentation  
that highlight the benefit of open source for employees - and would  
love to hear from some of you.

I have some personal examples where open source made me a more  
valuable employee, and how other colleagues who were into open source  
were considered invaluable.  I also believe the many employers who  
value open source are able to attract talented staff that  
"traditional" or "proprietary" employers cannot.

Do you have a story about how embracing open source geospatial  
applications helped broaden the opportunities for your future or  
helped you bust out of a mundane box?  Maybe you learned on your own  
time and brought your new skills into the office?  I'm particularly  
interested in your personal stories about how open source may have  
motivated you to grow, learn and extend your career or professional  
set of tools.

Anyone want to share?

Best wishes,
Tyler
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[Landon Blake]

Tyler,

You know I can't pass up an opportunity to talk about myself. :] I don't
have much time because of an impending Friday deadline, but I will share
a couple of thoughts with you. I could share more next week if you want.

>From my personal experience, skills as an open source programming can
give employees a definite advantage in their career, especially in two
types of organizations.

The first type of organization is a small organization that can't afford
the cost of proprietary software. This can be a huge cost, especially
for software that is geared towards specialized professions, and not the
mass of typical computer users. Employees with an open source skill set
can offer solutions to this type of organization that wouldn't otherwise
be possible. For example, we are able to use an enterprise database
system and GIS software at my surveying and engineering company that are
open source because of the skill set that a coworker and I have
acquired, largely on our own time. This isn't software that my company
would have purchased from a commercial vendor.

The second type of organization is one in which a specialized trade or
profession is practiced. These organizations are often not served by the
"out-of-the-box" software that is suitable for more generic types of
businesses. Any type of programming skills, including open source
programming skills, enables an employee to develop custom solutions that
assist their organization. These applications are generally better
suited to the specialized tasks because they are written by an
individual with a unique knowledge of the "problem domain". This is not
typically something you get from software developed by a third party.
For example, I'm in the process of developing a tool that will process
thousands of points collected during the course of a bathymetric survey,
something we currently do in a spreadsheet. The tool, when completed,
could save my company several man hours and hundreds of dollars on every
bathymetric survey we perform.

Landon

-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces@...
[mailto:discuss-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Tyler Mitchell
(OSGeo)
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:12 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Your open source career

Hi everyone,
We've probably all heard of the typical business models for open  
source companies, but I'm working on a few slides for a presentation  
that highlight the benefit of open source for employees - and would  
love to hear from some of you.

I have some personal examples where open source made me a more  
valuable employee, and how other colleagues who were into open source  
were considered invaluable.  I also believe the many employers who  
value open source are able to attract talented staff that  
"traditional" or "proprietary" employers cannot.

Do you have a story about how embracing open source geospatial  
applications helped broaden the opportunities for your future or  
helped you bust out of a mundane box?  Maybe you learned on your own  
time and brought your new skills into the office?  I'm particularly  
interested in your personal stories about how open source may have  
motivated you to grow, learn and extend your career or professional  
set of tools.

Anyone want to share?

Best wishes,
Tyler
_______________________________________________
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Discuss@...
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


Warning:
Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.
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[Jennifer Horsman]

The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source
career" got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling
around in my head. This is pointed at those people who have experience
with ESRI products as well as OS GIS products.

I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my
own contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed,
but it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably
changed since then too!)

Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I
know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would
be where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to
the ESRI products?

Thanks,
Jennifer



_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@...
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

[Randy George]

-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces@...
[mailto:discuss-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Landon Blake
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:57 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Your open source career

Tyler,

You know I can't pass up an opportunity to talk about myself. :] I don't
have much time because of an impending Friday deadline, but I will share
a couple of thoughts with you. I could share more next week if you want.

>From my personal experience, skills as an open source programming can
give employees a definite advantage in their career, especially in two
types of organizations.

The first type of organization is a small organization that can't afford
the cost of proprietary software. This can be a huge cost, especially
for software that is geared towards specialized professions, and not the
mass of typical computer users. Employees with an open source skill set
can offer solutions to this type of organization that wouldn't otherwise
be possible. For example, we are able to use an enterprise database
system and GIS software at my surveying and engineering company that are
open source because of the skill set that a coworker and I have
acquired, largely on our own time. This isn't software that my company
would have purchased from a commercial vendor.

The second type of organization is one in which a specialized trade or
profession is practiced. These organizations are often not served by the
"out-of-the-box" software that is suitable for more generic types of
businesses. Any type of programming skills, including open source
programming skills, enables an employee to develop custom solutions that
assist their organization. These applications are generally better
suited to the specialized tasks because they are written by an
individual with a unique knowledge of the "problem domain". This is not
typically something you get from software developed by a third party.
For example, I'm in the process of developing a tool that will process
thousands of points collected during the course of a bathymetric survey,
something we currently do in a spreadsheet. The tool, when completed,
could save my company several man hours and hundreds of dollars on every
bathymetric survey we perform.

Landon

-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces@...
[mailto:discuss-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Tyler Mitchell
(OSGeo)
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:12 AM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Your open source career

Hi everyone,
We've probably all heard of the typical business models for open  
source companies, but I'm working on a few slides for a presentation  
that highlight the benefit of open source for employees - and would  
love to hear from some of you.

I have some personal examples where open source made me a more  
valuable employee, and how other colleagues who were into open source  
were considered invaluable.  I also believe the many employers who  
value open source are able to attract talented staff that  
"traditional" or "proprietary" employers cannot.

Do you have a story about how embracing open source geospatial  
applications helped broaden the opportunities for your future or  
helped you bust out of a mundane box?  Maybe you learned on your own  
time and brought your new skills into the office?  I'm particularly  
interested in your personal stories about how open source may have  
motivated you to grow, learn and extend your career or professional  
set of tools.

Anyone want to share?

Best wishes,
Tyler
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@...
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


Warning:
Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects
including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you
have received this information in error, please notify the sender
immediately.
_______________________________________________
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Discuss@...
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

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[Paul Ramsey]

I'd buck up for a copy of ArcView (much cheaper than ArcGIS), and use
GRASS / PostGIS / etc tools for things like analysis. You can use
ArcView to generate the paper and do some quick low-end analytics and
the other tools for more involved stuff.

My general synopsis: for server-side, for scriptability, for
automation, for web-based, open source wins for most use cases, given
a technically savvy user; for ad hoc, for cartographic production, for
a user who is used to a point-n-click experience end to end,
proprietary still wins.

This equation hasn't changed much in the 10 years I've been running
it. The goal posts have moved, open source is better at adhoc now than
before, but still not at the level of ESRI, and ESRI is better at the
server stuff now, but still not at the level of open source.

P.

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Jennifer Horsman <jen@...> wrote:

> The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source career"
> got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling around in my
> head. This is pointed at those people who have experience with ESRI products
> as well as OS GIS products.
>
>  I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my own
> contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
> ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed, but
> it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably changed
> since then too!)
>
>  Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I
> know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would be
> where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to the
> ESRI products?
>
>  Thanks,
>  Jennifer
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Discuss mailing list
>  Discuss@...
>  http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@...
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

[Landon Blake]

A convert! Welcome Jennifer.

I can't speak for GRASS, but I know that OpenJUMP
(http://jump-pilot.sourceforge.net/OpenJUMP.html) could be compared to
the old 3.X Arcview. It has limited printing abilities at this point in
time, but I don't think there is a better cross-platform tool for basic
ESRI Shapefile manipulation. (I'm a volunteer on the project and
therefore biased in my opinion on this matter.)

I think you will find you can do 95% of what you could with ESRI
software, you'll just have to do it with an assortment of tools instead
of a single tool.

Landon

-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces@...
[mailto:discuss-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Jennifer Horsman
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:41 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with
ESRI)?

The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source
career" got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling
around in my head. This is pointed at those people who have experience
with ESRI products as well as OS GIS products.

I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my
own contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed,
but it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably
changed since then too!)

Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I
know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would
be where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to
the ESRI products?

Thanks,
Jennifer



_______________________________________________
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Discuss@...
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


Warning:
Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.
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[Randy George]

Sorry for the previous blank post.

        Open source is a great boon to small business innovation, as others
have pointed out. Anyone dependent on small business consulting/contracting
will have plenty of uses for open source tools.

        I have also used Jump in place of ArcView for shp viewing (as well
as FWTools, Tatuk, AutoCAD, uDig, Geoserver ...). Shp seems to have become
largely a lowest common denominator interchange format with support
available all over.

Of course ArcGIS/ArcInfo is a much different beast. It would take a good bit
of sophistication to beat it in breadth of spectrum with just a single tool.
There seems to be some kind of open source tool for most of the Arc
bandwidth so you can probably get by without an expensive license with a
little extra work.

randy

-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces@...
[mailto:discuss-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Landon Blake
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 2:36 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with
ESRI)?

A convert! Welcome Jennifer.

I can't speak for GRASS, but I know that OpenJUMP
(http://jump-pilot.sourceforge.net/OpenJUMP.html) could be compared to
the old 3.X Arcview. It has limited printing abilities at this point in
time, but I don't think there is a better cross-platform tool for basic
ESRI Shapefile manipulation. (I'm a volunteer on the project and
therefore biased in my opinion on this matter.)

I think you will find you can do 95% of what you could with ESRI
software, you'll just have to do it with an assortment of tools instead
of a single tool.

Landon

-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces@...
[mailto:discuss-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Jennifer Horsman
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:41 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with
ESRI)?

The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source
career" got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling
around in my head. This is pointed at those people who have experience
with ESRI products as well as OS GIS products.

I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my
own contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed,
but it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably
changed since then too!)

Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I
know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would
be where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to
the ESRI products?

Thanks,
Jennifer



_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@...
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


Warning:
Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects
including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you
have received this information in error, please notify the sender
immediately.
_______________________________________________
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[David William Bitner-2]

I would agree with Paul.  The biggest hole in the FOSS stack is in easy, high quality printed map production.  This is the one task where the Arc tools beat anything I have seen in FOSS GIS hands down.

David

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Paul Ramsey <pramsey@...> wrote:

I'd buck up for a copy of ArcView (much cheaper than ArcGIS), and use
GRASS / PostGIS / etc tools for things like analysis. You can use
ArcView to generate the paper and do some quick low-end analytics and
the other tools for more involved stuff.

My general synopsis: for server-side, for scriptability, for
automation, for web-based, open source wins for most use cases, given
a technically savvy user; for ad hoc, for cartographic production, for
a user who is used to a point-n-click experience end to end,
proprietary still wins.

This equation hasn't changed much in the 10 years I've been running
it. The goal posts have moved, open source is better at adhoc now than
before, but still not at the level of ESRI, and ESRI is better at the
server stuff now, but still not at the level of open source.

P.

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Jennifer Horsman <jen@...> wrote:
> The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source career"
> got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling around in my
> head. This is pointed at those people who have experience with ESRI products
> as well as OS GIS products.
>
>  I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my own
> contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
> ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed, but
> it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably changed
> since then too!)
>
>  Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I
> know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would be
> where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to the
> ESRI products?
>
>  Thanks,
>  Jennifer
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Discuss mailing list
>  Discuss@...
>  http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@...
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

--
************************************
David William Bitner
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[George Silva]

Im a real novice in the OS world, and i´m enjoying. I´m liking what i see!

ESRI has good software, but the world of OS is just great and i love the
flexibility i have.

One thing GIS OS software could have are better editing tools. I do miss
them alot, and the one is ArcGIS are unbeatable (i dont know any O.S.
software that have 'autocomplete polygon', tons of snapping options, etc
- btw, if you do, let me know).

FOSS is great, but it lacks (IMHO) better editing options.

2cents

George Silva

David William Bitner escreveu:

> I would agree with Paul.  The biggest hole in the FOSS stack is in
> easy, high quality printed map production.  This is the one task where
> the Arc tools beat anything I have seen in FOSS GIS hands down.
>
> David
>
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Paul Ramsey
> <pramsey@... <mailto:pramsey@...>> wrote:
>
>     I'd buck up for a copy of ArcView (much cheaper than ArcGIS), and use
>     GRASS / PostGIS / etc tools for things like analysis. You can use
>     ArcView to generate the paper and do some quick low-end analytics and
>     the other tools for more involved stuff.
>
>     My general synopsis: for server-side, for scriptability, for
>     automation, for web-based, open source wins for most use cases, given
>     a technically savvy user; for ad hoc, for cartographic production, for
>     a user who is used to a point-n-click experience end to end,
>     proprietary still wins.
>
>     This equation hasn't changed much in the 10 years I've been running
>     it. The goal posts have moved, open source is better at adhoc now than
>     before, but still not at the level of ESRI, and ESRI is better at the
>     server stuff now, but still not at the level of open source.
>
>     P.
>
>     On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Jennifer Horsman
>     <jen@... <mailto:jen@...>> wrote:
>     > The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open
>     source career"
>     > got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling
>     around in my
>     > head. This is pointed at those people who have experience with
>     ESRI products
>     > as well as OS GIS products.
>     >
>     >  I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to
>     start my own
>     > contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
>     > ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS
>     installed, but
>     > it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has
>     probably changed
>     > since then too!)
>     >
>     >  Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as
>     ArcGIS? I
>     > know this is a very general question, so perhaps another
>     question would be
>     > where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in
>     comparison to the
>     > ESRI products?
>     >
>     >  Thanks,
>     >  Jennifer
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >  _______________________________________________
>     >  Discuss mailing list
>     >  Discuss@... <mailto:Discuss@...>
>     >  http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>     >
>     _______________________________________________
>     Discuss mailing list
>     Discuss@... <mailto:Discuss@...>
>     http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
>
>
> --
> ************************************
> David William Bitner
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@...
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>  

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[Josh Livni-2]

If you want nice cartographic output, ArcMap on a totally different
level than ArcView.  I think I paid about 1k a few years ago for my copy
(no extensions) through some reseller, which I really don't think is
outlandish at all for what you get.

That said, I rarely do paper-based cartography anymore, and one thing to
consider when starting out a new venture is those moving goalposts.  For
example, there's tons of demand (as far as I can tell) for putting stuff
on the web.  One spot I see lots of work for is somewhere just above
what the average google map hobbyists can offer (eg the
postgis/mapserver/openlayers wrapped in a decent web framework or CMS
kind of a thing).  Or do you prefer to focus on modeling?  
cartography?  I think if you have an idea of the kinds of projects you
want to work on, that might help you decide which of the many open
source gis software stacks might be the best to start studying.

Without knowing more, my .02 is you just can't go wrong spending a
little time learning PostGIS, and if you do want to put stuff on the
web, you may as well start by playing around with OpenLayers.

Cheers,

 -Josh


Paul Ramsey wrote:

> I'd buck up for a copy of ArcView (much cheaper than ArcGIS), and use
> GRASS / PostGIS / etc tools for things like analysis. You can use
> ArcView to generate the paper and do some quick low-end analytics and
> the other tools for more involved stuff.
>
> My general synopsis: for server-side, for scriptability, for
> automation, for web-based, open source wins for most use cases, given
> a technically savvy user; for ad hoc, for cartographic production, for
> a user who is used to a point-n-click experience end to end,
> proprietary still wins.
>
> This equation hasn't changed much in the 10 years I've been running
> it. The goal posts have moved, open source is better at adhoc now than
> before, but still not at the level of ESRI, and ESRI is better at the
> server stuff now, but still not at the level of open source.
>
> P.
>
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Jennifer Horsman <jen@...> wrote:
>  
>> The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source career"
>> got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling around in my
>> head. This is pointed at those people who have experience with ESRI products
>> as well as OS GIS products.
>>
>>  I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my own
>> contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
>> ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed, but
>> it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably changed
>> since then too!)
>>
>>  Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I
>> know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would be
>> where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to the
>> ESRI products?
>>
>>  Thanks,
>>  Jennifer
>>
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  Discuss mailing list
>>  Discuss@...
>>  http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
>>    
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@...
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>  

_______________________________________________
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Discuss@...
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[Randy George]

It might be good to add a geoserver layer into the stack between PostGIS and
client. Then you can publish into Google Earth, Google Maps, Virtual
Earth/LiveMaps, or your own homegrown html, SVG, WPF, Silverlight whatever
... as well as OpenLayers. Paper can be the clients choice if you add a
pdf/fop option.

randy

-----Original Message-----
From: discuss-bounces@...
[mailto:discuss-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Josh Livni
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:41 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with
ESRI)?


If you want nice cartographic output, ArcMap on a totally different
level than ArcView.  I think I paid about 1k a few years ago for my copy
(no extensions) through some reseller, which I really don't think is
outlandish at all for what you get.

That said, I rarely do paper-based cartography anymore, and one thing to
consider when starting out a new venture is those moving goalposts.  For
example, there's tons of demand (as far as I can tell) for putting stuff
on the web.  One spot I see lots of work for is somewhere just above
what the average google map hobbyists can offer (eg the
postgis/mapserver/openlayers wrapped in a decent web framework or CMS
kind of a thing).  Or do you prefer to focus on modeling?  
cartography?  I think if you have an idea of the kinds of projects you
want to work on, that might help you decide which of the many open
source gis software stacks might be the best to start studying.

Without knowing more, my .02 is you just can't go wrong spending a
little time learning PostGIS, and if you do want to put stuff on the
web, you may as well start by playing around with OpenLayers.

Cheers,

 -Josh


Paul Ramsey wrote:

> I'd buck up for a copy of ArcView (much cheaper than ArcGIS), and use
> GRASS / PostGIS / etc tools for things like analysis. You can use
> ArcView to generate the paper and do some quick low-end analytics and
> the other tools for more involved stuff.
>
> My general synopsis: for server-side, for scriptability, for
> automation, for web-based, open source wins for most use cases, given
> a technically savvy user; for ad hoc, for cartographic production, for
> a user who is used to a point-n-click experience end to end,
> proprietary still wins.
>
> This equation hasn't changed much in the 10 years I've been running
> it. The goal posts have moved, open source is better at adhoc now than
> before, but still not at the level of ESRI, and ESRI is better at the
> server stuff now, but still not at the level of open source.
>
> P.
>
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Jennifer Horsman <jen@...>

wrote:
>  
>> The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source
career"
>> got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling around in
my
>> head. This is pointed at those people who have experience with ESRI
products
>> as well as OS GIS products.
>>
>>  I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my
own
>> contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
>> ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed,
but
>> it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably
changed
>> since then too!)
>>
>>  Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I
>> know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would
be

>> where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to the
>> ESRI products?
>>
>>  Thanks,
>>  Jennifer
>>
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  Discuss mailing list
>>  Discuss@...
>>  http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
>>    
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[Cameron Shorter]

Joanne Cook provided good insights into replacing ArcGIS software with
Open Source on the geowanking list recently.
http://lists.burri.to/pipermail/geowanking/2008-April/005117.html (and
copied below)

I'd love to see all this expertise collated into an ESRI/Open Source
comparison similar to the review of the Open Source clients at:
http://www.spatialserver.net/osgis/
Such a comparison could the be used to drive Migration to Open Source
plans and package development (as sponsors decide it is cheaper to add
their key features to Open Source than to go for a full ESRI license).

Has anyone started such comparisons yet that we could build upon?
Would this be best developed as a wiki book?

Joanne Cook wrote:
> Hi Cameron,
>
> We (Oxford Archaeology) are going through exactly that process at the moment, although we are replacing arcgis 9.2 rather than arcview. We are doing this primarily because changes in the licensing terms meant that we were no longer eligible for the educational discount, but it's part of a longer term move towards open source. We have spent some time investigating alternatives, and have a few contenders, and I'm sure we would be happy to advise, or provide a case study on this.
>
> Basically we are looking at gvsig and qgis as the main options- gvsig because it can use cad data, and qgis because we like the grass integration and it's slightly more user-friendly for english speakers (the translated version of gvsig still has some spanish bits in it). With slight changes to our work-flows, we are finding that these two packages will do almost everything we need a gis to do, with the exception of producing high-quality illustrations. To achieve this we are currently looking at export to svg or postscript for final editing in inkscape, but that's a work in progress.
>  


George R. C. Silva wrote:

> Im a real novice in the OS world, and i´m enjoying. I´m liking what i
> see!
>
> ESRI has good software, but the world of OS is just great and i love
> the flexibility i have.
>
> One thing GIS OS software could have are better editing tools. I do
> miss them alot, and the one is ArcGIS are unbeatable (i dont know any
> O.S. software that have 'autocomplete polygon', tons of snapping
> options, etc - btw, if you do, let me know).
>
> FOSS is great, but it lacks (IMHO) better editing options.
>
> 2cents
>
> George Silva
>
> David William Bitner escreveu:
>> I would agree with Paul.  The biggest hole in the FOSS stack is in
>> easy, high quality printed map production.  This is the one task
>> where the Arc tools beat anything I have seen in FOSS GIS hands down.
>>
>> David
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Paul Ramsey
>> <pramsey@... <mailto:pramsey@...>> wrote:
>>
>>     I'd buck up for a copy of ArcView (much cheaper than ArcGIS), and
>> use
>>     GRASS / PostGIS / etc tools for things like analysis. You can use
>>     ArcView to generate the paper and do some quick low-end analytics
>> and
>>     the other tools for more involved stuff.
>>
>>     My general synopsis: for server-side, for scriptability, for
>>     automation, for web-based, open source wins for most use cases,
>> given
>>     a technically savvy user; for ad hoc, for cartographic
>> production, for
>>     a user who is used to a point-n-click experience end to end,
>>     proprietary still wins.
>>
>>     This equation hasn't changed much in the 10 years I've been running
>>     it. The goal posts have moved, open source is better at adhoc now
>> than
>>     before, but still not at the level of ESRI, and ESRI is better at
>> the
>>     server stuff now, but still not at the level of open source.
>>
>>     P.
>>
>>     On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Jennifer Horsman
>>     <jen@... <mailto:jen@...>> wrote:
>>     > The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open
>>     source career"
>>     > got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling
>>     around in my
>>     > head. This is pointed at those people who have experience with
>>     ESRI products
>>     > as well as OS GIS products.
>>     >
>>     >  I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to
>>     start my own
>>     > contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
>>     > ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS
>>     installed, but
>>     > it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has
>>     probably changed
>>     > since then too!)
>>     >
>>     >  Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as
>>     ArcGIS? I
>>     > know this is a very general question, so perhaps another
>>     question would be
>>     > where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in
>>     comparison to the
>>     > ESRI products?
>>     >
>>     >  Thanks,
>>     >  Jennifer
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >  _______________________________________________
>>     >  Discuss mailing list
>>     >  Discuss@... <mailto:Discuss@...>
>>     >  http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>     >
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Discuss mailing list
>>     Discuss@... <mailto:Discuss@...>
>>     http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ************************************
>> David William Bitner
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> Discuss@...
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>  
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--
Cameron Shorter
Geospatial Systems Architect
Tel: [phone]
Mob: [phone]

Think Globally, Fix Locally
Commercial Support for Geospatial Open Source Solutions
http://www.lisasoft.com/LISAsoft/SupportedProducts.html

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[John Callahan]

I've been an ESRI user (AV 3.x, ArcGIS 8/9, ArcIMS, ArcGIS Server,
ArcSDE) for 12+ years and have recently started exploring FOSS
software.  And I haven't disagreed with any of the responses so far.  
You will definitely need multiple programs to do what a single ESRI
program can do.  IMO, this is a good thing.  One of the main reasons for
my migration is I'm tired of running large, complicated, expensive
software and all the extra baggage that comes with it to use only 10% of
what the software can do. (see ArcGIS Server.)

You can do all the analysis and more of ArcGIS Desktop and extensions
using GRASS, QGIS, SAGA, GeoTools, GDAL/OGR, PROJ4, or R Statistics
along with a programming language like Python, Java or others.  (IMO,
this is a better solution than ESRI.)    You can do just about anything
you want on the web server end with MapServer, GeoServer, FeatureServer
(and maybe TileCache or GeoNetwork for metadata) with any of a dozen or
more clients (OpenLayers, ka-Map, MapGuide etc...).  And you can do a
lot of database work with Postgres/PostGIS, a much simpler, less costly
solution than ArcSDE+RDBMS.  And I wouldn't count out the role of free,
non-open source packages like Google products and Oracle Express (11g
should have Spatial included.)

 From my experience (limited in the FOSS world), I have found three
basic hurdles:

1) Cartography.  Whether on the screen, PDF outputs, or print
publications, ArcMap is easy and looks great. (Although R Statistics
produces better looking charts and graphs than ArcGIS.)

2) Versioned editing.  This is important for groups with multiple
concurrent editors or that has a particular hierarchical workflow with
their GIS data.

3) Storage and serving of very large (50+ GB) raster datasets.  PostGIS
does not support rasters yet; Oracle Spatial does though.  I'm still not
sure if storing rasters in a database is a good idea but ArcSDE sure
makes it easy, and with good performance when used in conjunction with
other ESRI products.


In the end, we have decided to move all of our web work to open source.  
For spatial analysis, we'll also move to open source.  For Desktop,
we'll have a mix of ArcGIS Desktop as well as QGIS, GRASS and maybe SAGA
and/or OSSIM.  For storage, we'll be maybe 505/50 with
PostGIS+file-based rasters and ArcSDE/Oracle.    Hope this helps.  This
sure is a fun and exciting time!

- John


Jennifer Horsman wrote:

> The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source
> career" got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling
> around in my head. This is pointed at those people who have experience
> with ESRI products as well as OS GIS products.
>
> I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my
> own contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
> ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed,
> but it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably
> changed since then too!)
>
> Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS?
> I know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question
> would be where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in
> comparison to the ESRI products?
>
> Thanks,
> Jennifer
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@...
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

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[Paul Ramsey]

>  3) Storage and serving of very large (50+ GB) raster datasets.  PostGIS
> does not support rasters yet; Oracle Spatial does though.  I'm still not
> sure if storing rasters in a database is a good idea but ArcSDE sure makes
> it easy, and with good performance when used in conjunction with other ESRI
> products.

John,

What is it about ArcSDE and raster that makes it easy? I have no
experience with it, but there must be something about the process that
seems easier to you than other options do. Is it just the clarity of
the process? (you do a, b, c, and d, and then voila, it's all a
seamless mosaic?) Or is there something else?

P
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[John Callahan]

A few things...

- As you alluded to, it's very easy to create a seamless mosaic, or a
raster catalog.  And pyramids (overviews) and statistics are created
automatically, if you like.  The same loading process works if you have
a one IMG file at 2 GB, or 100 JPEGs at 100 MB each, or 2000 TIFs at 200
MB each.  (size limitations based upon your backend database.)

- The loading process is simply using ArcCatalog and easy built in
tools. Or using a command line function (sderaster -o mosaic) wrapped in
a script.  Or, any ArcObjects code you write (if you can figure that
out!)    For one file, you simply right-click and say Load into ArcSDE.

- It's also nice to use the same storage mechanism for both vectors and
rasters, for shared daily GIS use within my group, and for production
web apps.  And performance is very good in an all-ESRI solution (I
haven't tried with non-ESRI clients)


Problems come in because ArcGIS Desktop crashes quite often when dealing
with large datasets.  It's slow and unreliable. Did you ever try to load
a bunch of rasters just to have it crash 3 days later?  The statements I
mentioned above work very well for small datasets and touch-and-go with
larger data.  The ArcSDE and RDBMS work great, it's the clients that
break down and are slow.  I also don't want to deal with the headaches
of managing Oracle (it's a beast!) and, obviously, I don't want to deal
with the extremely high costs of an Oracle/ESRI solution.

I also want to share applications, share code, run the same products at
home or at work, and run on multiple platforms.  FOSS geo software fall
more in line with my philosophical beliefs. I work at a university and
it costs me very little for Oracle and ESRI products (for university
related projects), and I still want to implement open source!

- John




Paul Ramsey wrote:

>>  3) Storage and serving of very large (50+ GB) raster datasets.  PostGIS
>> does not support rasters yet; Oracle Spatial does though.  I'm still not
>> sure if storing rasters in a database is a good idea but ArcSDE sure makes
>> it easy, and with good performance when used in conjunction with other ESRI
>> products.
>>    
>
> John,
>
> What is it about ArcSDE and raster that makes it easy? I have no
> experience with it, but there must be something about the process that
> seems easier to you than other options do. Is it just the clarity of
> the process? (you do a, b, c, and d, and then voila, it's all a
> seamless mosaic?) Or is there something else?
>
> P
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@...
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>  

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[Paolo Cavallini]

Paul Ramsey ha scritto:
> I'd buck up for a copy of ArcView (much cheaper than ArcGIS), and use
> GRASS / PostGIS / etc tools for things like analysis. You can use
> ArcView to generate the paper and do some quick low-end analytics and
> the other tools for more involved stuff.

A reasonably good replacement for ArcView is also QGIS (which integrates
nicely with GRASS, btw).
pc
--
Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc
Noi ci troviamo con parecchie difficoltà con NGI http://www.ngi.it/
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[Paolo Cavallini]

George R. C. Silva ha scritto:

> One thing GIS OS software could have are better editing tools. I do miss
> them alot, and the one is ArcGIS are unbeatable (i dont know any O.S.
> software that have 'autocomplete polygon', tons of snapping options, etc
> - btw, if you do, let me know).

Have you tried GRASS and the latest (0.9.2rc1) QGIS for PostGIS editing?
pc
--
Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc
Noi ci troviamo con parecchie difficoltà con NGI http://www.ngi.it/
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[Paul Ramsey]

Paolo,

Among the things that QGIS (and other open source desktops) can't do
are a table join, a spatial join, high quality paper output, and
symbolized thematic mapping.  Particular drawbacks of QGIS include the
single-threaded user interface model (ui locks during render, making
work with large files very stop-n-go) and relatively simple editing
tools.

I think it's contingent on us as evangelizers to not over-sell. I
would not recommend QGIS or any other open source desktop to someone
whose prior experience was Arc* until I had a clear understanding of
the use case. In response to the query "can I replace ArcView with
open source", my answer is "in general, no, but maybe for a specific
use case".

P.

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 11:37 PM, Paolo Cavallini <cavallini@...> wrote:

> Paul Ramsey ha scritto:
>
> > I'd buck up for a copy of ArcView (much cheaper than ArcGIS), and use
>  > GRASS / PostGIS / etc tools for things like analysis. You can use
>  > ArcView to generate the paper and do some quick low-end analytics and
>  > the other tools for more involved stuff.
>
>  A reasonably good replacement for ArcView is also QGIS (which integrates
>  nicely with GRASS, btw).
>  pc
>  --
>  Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc
>  Noi ci troviamo con parecchie difficoltà con NGI http://www.ngi.it/
>
>
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[Wolf Bergenheim]

On 25.04.2008 17:55, Paul Ramsey wrote:
> Paolo,
>
> Among the things that QGIS (and other open source desktops) can't do
> are a table join, a spatial join

I'm not sure what you mean with spatial join, but if you mean overlay,
and raster combination GRASS can do, and it can also do table joins,
while it overlays two vector layers.

> In response to the query "can I replace ArcView with
> open source", my answer is "in general, no, but maybe for a specific
> use case".

I'd say: "In general yes (In some respects GRASS is superior to Arc in
analysis), but some things can be harder / more complicated or not
possible". GRASS is a perfectly capable desktop GIS package with over
200 modules.

--Wolf

--

<:3 )---- Wolf Bergenheim ----( 8:>

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[Andrea Antonello]

> > Among the things that QGIS (and other open source desktops) can't do
> > are a table join, a spatial join
> >
>
>  I'm not sure what you mean with spatial join, but if you mean overlay, and
> raster combination GRASS can do, and it can also do table joins, while it
> overlays two vector layers.
>
>
>
> > In response to the query "can I replace ArcView with
> > open source", my answer is "in general, no, but maybe for a specific
> > use case".
> >
>
>  I'd say: "In general yes (In some respects GRASS is superior to Arc in
> analysis), but some things can be harder / more complicated or not
> possible". GRASS is a perfectly capable desktop GIS package with over 200
> modules.

I agree with Paul, power without control doesn't lead anywhere. GRASS
is of huge power, but following my past commercial experiences, I
would say "in general no, because most times they don't want the
overhead of GRASS for exactly those things they need".

Andrea

>
>  --Wolf
>
>  --
>
>  <:3 )---- Wolf Bergenheim ----( 8:>
>
>
>
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