WHY mail couts AT ALL???

[5Rebel5]

Since we all agree that we CANNOT get a FAIR count from the PO... they have proven it over and over again... WHY can't we just demand that we be put on hourly with boosts if necessary to make an 8 hour day with 2 days a week of ( necessarly in order) ... I don't think I will be able to work 6 days a week if I go H and have no life outside my job... and the pay loss is killing all of us???

[James Pillow]

City routes are inspected and mail is curtailed for them, too. The PO will never NOT count us unless both sides agree to do 52-week averages. But there are pitfalls with doing that as well, and national delegates are dead against it.

[5Rebel5]

The BIG difference is the city carriers can count on getting paid for an 8 hour day... they don't live their lives wondering how much $$ they will lose NEXT COUNT and how many days off they will lose...THEY have the same salary and can keep their raises as well as the other crafts.... WE are the only craft that pays OUT OF OUR SALARIES for the decline in mail volume.....  I don't understand why this is  so hard?? .... as long as we continue to get paid by mail volume (or mail counts like we have now) we will continue to lose our shirts $$ every year.... I don't care if they work me NINE HOURS a day.... as long as I can MAKE A LIVING!!!... and not have no days off.. no time to do anything at my home and live with the kind of uncertainty and STRESS these last few years have brought.... I have gone from a 46K to a 42J with this count... and I'M NOT WORKING LESS HOURS????? ..... the other crafts and management don't have to worry about their paychecks going down EVERY YEAR!!!!!... they have salaries they know they won't lose....they get two days a week off unless they work them overtime..... I WANT OUT OF THIS PAY SYSTEM ON OUR NEXT CONTRACT!!!!.... I mean what do you want??...  to work SIX DAYS A WEEK EVERY WEEK AND MAKE $15,000???.... while the other crafts and management are secure in their financial future???.... It's not unreasonable to expect our union to fight for a pay system that gives us some kind of financial security, no matter what the volume does, LIKE THE OTHERS CRAFTS...even if we have to boost other routes, etc, like the city

[doug in illinois]

You didn't mention the 2080 hour issues that go right along with UNDER evaluated routes, as most now are. It is so amazing that anything put in place to protect the average worker, meaning time and a half for over 40 hours per week, gets corrupted by USPS and used against us. DOUG

[5Rebel5]

I've been in this craft for over 29 years... I've alway supported my union... I've been a steward and an academy instructor.... I'm the one many of my co workers come to for answers... and most importantly, I've alway LOVED my job... the independence and my precious customer.... BUT, after this last count, I just have no motivation to even go to work because I KNOW my employer cheated me out of ALLOT of the mail I would have had by interferring with the mailers and I have lost about $16,000 in the last two years... I know the volume has gone down, but not this much... THIS is not what the evaluated system was supposed to be about.... if our union doesn't get us OUT OF THIS (like they were ordered to do by the arbitrator in 2002) how many years can we take these massive losses without starting to lose our homes and filing for bankruptcy??? .... this is a serious question.... I never thought I would be saying this, but if our union doesnt' fight to get of out of these counts which are just a game at this point anyway... as far as I'm concerned,  I will say YOU'RE FIRED!!!

[Noppie]

I support decertifying the NRLCA.  I started in 2001 with the USPS and the ONLY thing I noticed about mail count as sub.  It was the only time of year I could do the route (any) in the evaluated time.

In my Post office we have city carriers within a few feet of the rural carriers.  I can physically LOOK at their cases, their volume of mail and see they are carrying less mail. They are being paid 8 hours and have ONE day week off.  Were as I get paid for 7 work 8 to 9 and some time 12 and have to work 6 days a week.

I would like to hear more about "ordered to do by the arbitrator in 2002" to get out of mail counts or the evaluated system?  If they the NRLCA and or the USPS were order to by the arbitrator, why is this NOR HAPPENING?

Please enlighten everyone hear. And this might be a topic you might sent directly to Alan to get a direct answer.      

[Just Alan]

Nopie, it is in the Well's arbitration, which directed "both" partires  to reform how we evaluate routes. The reason this has not happened, to the best of my knowledge, is "BOTH PARTIES" were directed to select a "mutally acceptable" arbitrator to reconcile the issue. We picked one, they picked one, wasn't the same person, so BOTH SIDES think they have an OUT.
I don't, and if elected, we WILL GO THERE.
Alan

[5Rebel5]

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

I'll try to get that arbitration settlement an send it to you... send me your email address....

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 8:56 PM

Subject: Re: WHY mail couts AT ALL???

I support decertifying the NRLCA.  I started in 2001 with the USPS and the ONLY thing I noticed about mail count as sub.  It was the only time of year I could do the route (any) in the evaluated time.

In my Post office we have city carriers within a few feet of the rural carriers.  I can physically LOOK at their cases, their volume of mail and see they are carrying less mail. They are being paid 8 hours and have ONE day week off.  Were as I get paid for 7 work 8 to 9 and some time 12 and have to work 6 days a week.

I would like to hear more about "ordered to do by the arbitrator in 2002" to get out of mail counts or the evaluated system?  If they the NRLCA and or the USPS were order to by the arbitrator, why is this NOR HAPPENING?

Please enlighten everyone hear. And this might be a topic you might sent directly to Alan to get a direct answer.      

[rosa...Tx.]

A Great big.....AMEN>>>>>

[rosa...Tx.]

WHY DO WE  NEVER GET THE OPTION TO OPT OUT? I'VE BEEN CARRING FOR 6 YRS AND HAVE NEVER HAD THE OPTION.

[5Rebel5]

well, the 'option' is that if EITHER of us opts in, we have to count... if the PS opts out, but the carrier wants to count, you will count... vice versa, if the PS opts in and the carrier opts out, you will also count... you will not have a count if you BOTH opt out.... that how it goes..

[5Rebel5]

Alan, are you for just adjusting the way we do counts like 'averaging'??  or are you for going hourly more like the city carriers.... ???.... I was told personally on the phone by Stutts at national that we have only two options .... going hourly, or averaging, which I think still leave allot of room for the PS mettle with all things that control our volume during a certain of time.... I don't understand why we can't just on hourly with a set salary like the city with OT if worked or necessary... that was, we will have a financial future we can depend on and get to keep any raises.... the count thing is so inconsistent and unfair, it just doesn't make sense anymore.... I was told by our state president (Texas) that we have the option to go hourly without negotiations but there would be some downsides... I want to know all about the options... pros and cons... if we stay on the count system, we will never know from year to year what we will be making or how much time we will have off.... it's hard to have a life outside work, if you work six days a week EVERY WEEK!

[5Rebel5]

what do you mean by 'decertifying' the NRLCa??

[5Rebel5]

excuse me, but just curious if you kow anything about this September count that we are all said to be opted into and the 'summer special' offer the PS is supposed to make to large mailers that will end shortly before next count??

[Noppie]

What I mean by decertifying the NRLCA is setting into motion the action that will shut down and end the union.  But please do not think I am anti-union.  I support the very concept of organized labor working to protect employes.  I simply find the NRLCA as the poster child for a "bad union"

Second from my understanding one aspect of decertifying a union would require a large number of signatures.  However, if the union member ship falls below an unknown number 10% to 30% and certain actions by the union if viewed by the Nation Labor Board could lead to decertification.  

I do not believe on any level that NRLCA is capable of representing rural letter carriers.  No change will come from the inside.  It is my belief with the NRLCA they one do not care if a group is trying to decertifying them.  They believe they are exempted from any legal action.  If I was one signature short, they still would not care and continue in their action to cause harm to rural letter carriers.  If, I got all the signatures, they would still not care and the only action they would take would be stop the decertification by any means possible.  No action you take within the rules of NRLCA will get the results you or I want.  Even IF by some means several of current NLRCA are unseated.  I doubt there will be any change.  There will be still be a cancer within the NRLCA.    

[Just Alan]

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

Rebel,

I am for "reforming" the way we evaluate routes, and failing that, a system that is FAIR for both sides, I think we should just go hourly.

If you would be so kind, just go to PT's site and read my proposal for count reform, it needs a lil work, but I think it would fairly reflect the work we do, and save the PO money. Additionally, it is based on working off the preceding years volume and would allow the PO and carriers to have some idea about how to plan for next year, if volume is trending down, so will ypor next count, so brace yourself and prepare, beforehand. I think your state Prez may have mis-spoken, you have that right the first year as a regular, but not after, unless I am mis-informed. If we force an hourly pay system, the argument I hear is then we will be mico-managed, just like the city side. I guess I don't get this argument, they are doing it anyway, as in my office, everytime they try to micro-manage the carriers, thier numbers go down, they get thier asses chewed by district, as they have no idea what we do, nor how cost-efficient this craft is if they just let us do our jobs, which we know, and they refuse to acknowledge

Alan

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 5:07 PM

Subject: Re: WHY mail couts AT ALL???

Alan, are you for just adjusting the way we do counts like 'averaging'??  or are you for going hourly more like the city carriers.... ???.... I was told personally on the phone by Stutts at national that we have only two options .... going hourly, or averaging, which I think still leave allot of room for the PS mettle with all things that control our volume during a certain of time.... I don't understand why we can't just on hourly with a set salary like the city with OT if worked or necessary... that was, we will have a financial future we can depend on and get to keep any raises.... the count thing is so inconsistent and unfair, it just doesn't make sense anymore.... I was told by our state president (Texas) that we have the option to go hourly without negotiations but there would be some downsides... I want to know all about the options... pros and cons... if we stay on the count system, we will never know from year to year what we will be making or how much time we will have off.... it's hard to have a life outside work, if you work six days a week EVERY WEEK!

[5Rebel5]

Alan... I'm sorry, but I can't find your article or proposal for count reform.... where can I find it?.... I'd like to read it.... you said in your last response about your ideas about reforming "wold allow the PO and carriers to have some idea about how to plan for next year"... do you mean financially planning for ANOTHER $8000 to $10,000 or more pay cut??? and "bracing" yourself for that?  ... I'm not trying to be sarcastic really, but that's my whole point about staying on any system that "counts' mail as a method of payment.... we can't plan for anything in the future while we are on such an uncertain pay system.... for example, just recently, I had the opportunity to refinance my house for 5 years to have it paid off by the time I retire... I could and would have done that, but with the loss of $8000 this year and an unknown amount that may be even more with the 2010 mail count, I was unable to do that because I don't know if I will be able to make the $834 month payments for the next five years... that is the situation these counts put us in... we don't know within any reasonable certainty what we will be making 12 months from now and can't plan for anything in the future.... I feel like I'm on a cliff with the wind blowing and nothing to hold on to.... I've never before felt like this in my entire career .... all I want to do is make a living ... I'm even willing to work more hours or boost, IF I can just not suffer these intolerable losses EVERY YEAR.... we can't trust the PO to give us a fair under any circumstances... we just need to go hourly.... but let me know where I can find your proposal.... I don't re read my posts, so I know I make some grammatical errors... sorry

[Postaltexan]

Here is the link to all of Alan's proposals..

http://n2.nabble.com/Read-some-of-Alan%27s-policy-positions-and-ideas-td2555027.html

[James Pillow]

Rebel... you are making two different arguments here. The title of the thread is why count at all but you keep making arguments to go hourly. We can scrap the mail count and NOT go hourly if we are willing to take our chances with 52 week averages. The city carriers in my office complain about fixed counts too, so we will still be griping about rigged counts (as well as carriers who didn't want to go hourly complaining about having to do it) if we go hourly. Your idea that if we scrap the evaluated system, we scrap the mail count, is incorrect.

[5Rebel5]

I know the city carriers are 'somewhat' counted in that their routes are adjusted daily based on their volume and their parcels are counted that morning, and they are scrutinized a little more closely... the difference is THEY don't lose many thousands EVERY YEAR  because volume within the PS has declined and that's a BIG DIFFERENCE!! ......  if our union and the PS can figure out a way to 'count' mail without losing our salaries and raises, etc, that's fine with me... I don't care if they adjust my route daily (like the city) .... I know how to carry the mail and I can carry a boost if I don't have enough mail for 8 hours (like the city).... I don't care if they scrutinize every breath I breathe frankly.... I just want a salary I know I won't lose a sixth of next year and the year after.....I read Alan's proposal for count reform and I still don't understand how to get a reliable average of something you can't really get a good count of.........  I don't know if I'm willing to put my livelihood on the table and throw THAT dice because the PS will manuver and manipulate ANYTHING that will determine our salaries, just like this thing about them offering the mailers reduced rates BETWEEN MAIL COUNTS!!!!... I'm just a realist and I've seen it year after year with my own eyes.... I've seen the shitty things they do.... I don't see how we can  enter into any contract at all with this organization that just violates it anyway.... they had FOUR of our RCA's crossing crafts doing  clerk work in our office last Saturday!!!...... they were throwing parcels, doing the accoutables cart, boxing hot mail, etc.   ........ we can't trust them to keep a promise............I want THE HELL OUT of these unreliable, inconsistent, "outdated", stressful and  traumatic yearly 'events' that have cost me and my coworkers thousands$$ and time out of our lives.... it's not unreasonable for regulars to expect to have a stable salary and 2 days a week off more like the other crafts including the city carriers even though mail volume has gone down.... we all agree these counts are not working for us anymore... we just don't all agree how to fix it.... and REALLY, the PS is going to fight like a mad dog to keep us right here ... look how much they have gained from it???.... I just don't see any way out of this other than to just fight for a more city like system... and as far as the carriers who are joined at the hip to the evaluated system, they better rethink it.... they may have many miles and no volume, but the intolerable pay losses are coming their way too if we stay here....and by the way, I started this thread and I know the title.