Updating plone.org/help

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Matthew Wilkes () Updating plone.org/help
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Hi all,

http://plone.org/help currently redirects to http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/ask-for-help

It's a little... quirky, for example:

  1.  Leave. #php is right next door. Tell 'em limi sent ya. ;^)
  2. Stay and Bitch. I mean, we can't really stop you.
  3. Stay and Mooch. The ranks of the Plone welfare state grow every day.
  4. Get involved. Write code or docs, or hire someone else to do it — we value both approaches equally.

While we can all agree these things happen (especially 2 ;)) it's a bit chatty, so I added a rewrite task to our GHOP list.

This is now published at:

http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/asking-for-help

I propose making that the primary document, what do you reckon?

Matt


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Christian Schneider-10 () Re: Updating plone.org/help
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Hey Matt,

+1 for the new doc. I do find the examples slightly confusing though, are they real-life examples?

Greets
Christian


On Dec 11, 2007, at 7:29 PM, Matthew Wilkes wrote:

Hi all,

http://plone.org/help currently redirects to http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/ask-for-help

It's a little... quirky, for example:

  1.  Leave. #php is right next door. Tell 'em limi sent ya. ;^)
  2. Stay and Bitch. I mean, we can't really stop you.
  3. Stay and Mooch. The ranks of the Plone welfare state grow every day.
  4. Get involved. Write code or docs, or hire someone else to do it — we value both approaches equally.

While we can all agree these things happen (especially 2 ;)) it's a bit chatty, so I added a rewrite task to our GHOP list.

This is now published at:

http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/asking-for-help

I propose making that the primary document, what do you reckon?

Matt

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aclark () Re: Updating plone.org/help
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In reply to this post by Matthew Wilkes
On 2007-12-11, Matthew Wilkes <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is now published at:
> http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/asking-for-help
> I propose making that the primary document, what do you reckon?

-1. I can appreciate wanting to clarify the message, but I actually like the
quirkiness of the original document better, and wouldn't want to lose that.

I would suggest (maybe) cleaning up and clarifying your examples and adding
them to the original, i.e. *why* is this a bad example, how could it be
improved, etc.

(I have a list of question/answer examples as well buried in an old
Data.fs somewhere...)

HTH,

> Matt
>
>
> --Apple-Mail-103-47266956
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset=WINDOWS-1252
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
> -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Hi all,<br><br><a =
> href=3D"http://plone.org/help">http://plone.org/help</a> currently =
> redirects to <a =
> href=3D"http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/ask-for-help">http://plone.o=
> rg/documentation/how-to/ask-for-help</a><br><br>It's a little... quirky, =
> for example:<br><br>   1.  Leave. #php is right next =
> door. Tell 'em limi sent ya. ;^)<br>   2. Stay and Bitch. I =
> mean, we can't really stop you.<br>   3. Stay and Mooch. The =
> ranks of the Plone welfare state grow every day.<br>   4. Get =
> involved. Write code or docs, or hire someone else to do it =97 we value =
> both approaches equally.<br><br>While we can all agree these things =
> happen (especially 2 ;)) it's a bit chatty, so I added a rewrite task to =
> our GHOP list.<br><br>This is now published at:<br><br><a =
> href=3D"http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/asking-for-help">http://plon=
> e.org/documentation/how-to/asking-for-help</a><br><br>I propose making =
> that the primary document, what do you =
> reckon?<br><br>Matt</div><br></body></html>=
>
> --Apple-Mail-103-47266956--
>
>
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> --===============0094845140==--
>
>


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Alex Clark (http://aclark.net)


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Jon Stahl () Re: Updating plone.org/help
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Alex Clark wrote:
> On 2007-12-11, Matthew Wilkes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> This is now published at:
>> http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/asking-for-help
>> I propose making that the primary document, what do you reckon?
>
> -1. I can appreciate wanting to clarify the message, but I actually
> like the quirkiness of the original document better, and wouldn't
> want to lose that.

I'm +1 for the rewrite.  I think the "quirkiness" crossed over the line
into "somewhat non professional."

best,
jon

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Shaun Hills () Re: Updating plone.org/help
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In reply to this post by Matthew Wilkes
>   I propose making that the primary document, what do
>   you reckon?

+1, but I also found the examples slightly confusing.

-- Shaun

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JoAnna Springsteen () Re: Updating plone.org/help
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The examples seem to be geared more towards the mailing lists and not
for #plone.
Outline the various ways to get help and how questions should be
stated for each format.

Also, the majority of the "quirky" document really isn't bad, except
for that one section. Maybe come up with a combination of the two that
meets our needs?

j.

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Christian Schneider-10 () Re: Updating plone.org/help
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I agree totally, the quirkiness is inappropriate... had I read that  
document when I ran into my first major problems with Plone, I would  
have said "right... suck it, I'll use PHP then" and stuck my tongue  
out at Plone. I can see how it was intended I think, but the  
"sarcasm" comes across like a pouty remark from a snotty teenager  
with an inferiority complex.


On Dec 12, 2007, at 12:04 AM, Jon Stahl wrote:

> Alex Clark wrote:
>> On 2007-12-11, Matthew Wilkes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> This is now published at:
>>> http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/asking-for-help
>>> I propose making that the primary document, what do you reckon?
>>
>> -1. I can appreciate wanting to clarify the message, but I actually
>> like the quirkiness of the original document better, and wouldn't
>> want to lose that.
>
> I'm +1 for the rewrite.  I think the "quirkiness" crossed over the  
> line
> into "somewhat non professional."
>
> best,
> jon
>
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Marco De Vitis () Re: Updating plone.org/help
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In reply to this post by Matthew Wilkes
Il 11/12/2007 19:29, Matthew Wilkes ha scritto:

> It's a little... quirky, for example:
>
>   1.  Leave. #php is right next door. Tell 'em limi sent ya. ;^)
>   2. Stay and Bitch. I mean, we can't really stop you.
>   3. Stay and Mooch. The ranks of the Plone welfare state grow every day.
>   4. Get involved. Write code or docs, or hire someone else to do it —
> we value both approaches equally.

-1 from me.
This section might seem too rude and childish if taken alone, but
looking at it as it actually is in the current doc I don't think it's so
bad.

IMHO the current doc is very complete, and overall better than the one
you propose, which is instead a bit too schematic. The part you mention
only comes after a good deal of friendly suggestions on how to get help,
and it's clearly stated that these 4 choices are what is left to you in
the unfortunate case when Plone is really not suited to your needs.
And even immediately after them, it's friendly stuff again.
I would agree with you if the doc started with these lines... but it's
not the case.

On the other hand, this is only my personal opinion, and if someone else
thinks this section is bad, maybe it can really be improved. Here's how
I would change it to make it more "soft":

-------------------------------
Unfortunately, there can even be times when your error or problem is
actually caused by a limitation of the software. It can happen that
Plone, as it stands today, may not solve your use case, either by
accident or by design. If you find yourself in this situation, you have
four options:

    1. Get involved. Write code or docs, or hire someone else to do it —
we value both approaches equally.
    2. Give up on Plone and turn to a different software/technology
which is better suited to your use case.
    3. Stay and Mooch. The ranks of the Plone welfare state grow every day.
    4. Stay and Bitch. I mean, we can't really stop you.
-------------------------------

So, I:

- Rephrased the intro to make it clear that this is an unfortunate
situation which we whish could never happen to you.

- Changed the "php" choice to a more moderate and general one, to
prevent the possibility that this section looks like a "Plone vs PHP"
flame to anyone.

- Re-sorted the list so that our preferred choice is n. 1, the other
realistic choice is n. 2, and the ironic ones are 3 and 4.

What do you think?

I'll also add that I would remove the bold face from the 4 choices, to
prevent this section from catching the eye of the newcomer more than due.

And I admit I do not really get the meaning of the "Stay and Mooch"
choice, maybe because I'm not a native English speaker... so maybe that
should be changed somehow, too? What does it mean?

--
Ciao,
   Marco.


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Marco De Vitis () Re: Updating plone.org/help
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Il 15/12/2007 12:30, Marco De Vitis ha scritto:

> -------------------------------
> Unfortunately, there can even be times when your error or problem is
> actually caused by a limitation of the software. It can happen that
> Plone, as it stands today, may not solve your use case, either by
> accident or by design. If you find yourself in this situation, you have
> four options:
>
>     1. Get involved. Write code or docs, or hire someone else to do it —
> we value both approaches equally.
>     2. Give up on Plone and turn to a different software/technology
> which is better suited to your use case.
>     3. Stay and Mooch. The ranks of the Plone welfare state grow every day.
>     4. Stay and Bitch. I mean, we can't really stop you.
> -------------------------------

Most people in this thread seemed in favour of changing this section
somehow. Any opinions on my suggested version above?
Matthew, does it satisfy your point of view?
Others, is it ok, or do you prefer a more radical change like Matthew
suggested?

I suppose I can change it myself, but... a second opinion would be
welcome ;). Or should I start a countdown and dare to change it anyway
if nobody commented in time?

--
Ciao,
   Marco.


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Graham Perrin () Re: Updating plone.org/help
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In reply to this post by Christian Schneider-10
Christian Schneider-10 wrote:
I agree totally, the quirkiness is inappropriate...
Coinciding with plone.org upgrade, a round of minor updates to various objects allowed me a little time to work on <http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/ask-for-help>. Work in progress, not finalised (naturally interrupted during upgrade routines), the page remains quirky and broadly speaking it:

* still assumes that the user is suffering problems and frustration (negative)

* may not recognise that some writers are simply newcomers, seeking advice/direction (positive).

I know that <http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/asking-for-help> exists, I'll do a little more tidying of my work in progress then compare the two. An early thought is that we might have:

* one how-to: 'Asking for help'
* another how-to, closely associated, equally visible: 'Dealing with problems and errors' … words along those lines.

Regards
Graham