"Top 15 Questions..." Final Draft

[Gabrielle Hendryx-Parker]

Hi All!

Thanks to all of you who participated in this effort, we now have a  
final draft ready for the "Top 15 Questions About Plone" at:
http://www.openplans.org/projects/plone-marketing/top-ten-questions-about-plone

Please provide feedback by Monday, April 13th so we can move forward  
with the formatting of the document as a nice Quick Ref Card for  
integration in conference kits.

Thank you,
Gabrielle
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[Jens W. klein-2]

Am Thu, 09 Apr 2009 23:38:26 -0400 schrieb Gabrielle Hendryx-Parker:

> Hi All!
>
> Thanks to all of you who participated in this effort, we now have a
> final draft ready for the "Top 15 Questions About Plone" at:
> http://www.openplans.org/projects/plone-marketing/top-ten-questions-
about-plone
>
> Please provide feedback by Monday, April 13th so we can move forward
> with the formatting of the document as a nice Quick Ref Card for
> integration in conference kits.
>

Thanks for the excellent work!

Just a little comment on

        #10 - How do I edit/upload my content using Plone? - FINAL
        [...]Additional interfaces (Flash Uploader, FTP and WebDAV) are
  available[...]

I would remove "Flash Uploader" here. ZIP-Upload works, but our
FlashUpload requires Flash 8. Its broken since Flash 9. Lovely, author of
the original flash in flashupload stopped supporting it, they wrote their
own solution which is not published. Also there are better opensource
projects around waiting for integration: I'd like to see an integration
of http://swfupload.org/ - but afaik there isnt any.

regards Jens

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[Jens W. klein-2]

Am Fri, 10 Apr 2009 16:28:19 +0000 schrieb Jens W. Klein:

> Am Thu, 09 Apr 2009 23:38:26 -0400 schrieb Gabrielle Hendryx-Parker:
>
>> Hi All!
>>
>> Thanks to all of you who participated in this effort, we now have a
>> final draft ready for the "Top 15 Questions About Plone" at:
>> http://www.openplans.org/projects/plone-marketing/top-ten-questions-
> about-plone
>>
>> Please provide feedback by Monday, April 13th so we can move forward
>> with the formatting of the document as a nice Quick Ref Card for
>> integration in conference kits.
>>
>>
> Thanks for the excellent work!
>
> Just a little comment on
>
> #10 - How do I edit/upload my content using Plone? - FINAL
> [...]Additional interfaces (Flash Uploader, FTP and WebDAV) are
>   available[...]
>
> I would remove "Flash Uploader" here. ZIP-Upload works, but our
> FlashUpload requires Flash 8. Its broken since Flash 9. Lovely, author
> of the original flash in flashupload stopped supporting it, they wrote
> their own solution which is not published. Also there are better
> opensource projects around waiting for integration: I'd like to see an
> integration of http://swfupload.org/ - but afaik there isnt any.
>

eeeks, posted to fast (remark to self: first do research on new
evolutions, then write) meanwhile theres a RC with swfupload, ok, keep
it. :-)

Jens
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[Jan Ulrich Hasecke-2]

Hi,

great work. I am just trying to translate the 15 questions into German  
and discovered the following.

There are repeats in the first two section, concerning the fact that  
CMS/Plone enable people to create, maintain etc. content only using a  
browser.

Then in this text and on the website you write that the Plone  
Foundation is a "501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization". 501 in my  
memory is a Levis jeans, ;-) I mean outside the USA nobody knows what  
501 means. I would skip it from the text and make perhaps a footnote.

Only the first impressions. Maybe more to come.

juh
 

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[Alexander Limi]

On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 20:20:40 +0200, Jan Ulrich Hasecke  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Then in this text and on the website you write that the Plone Foundation  
> is a "501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization". 501 in my memory is a  
> Levis jeans, ;-) I mean outside the USA nobody knows what 501 means. I  
> would skip it from the text and make perhaps a footnote.

Yeah, the most relevant bit about 501(c)(3) is "non-profit foundation  
where donations are tax-deductible (at least in the US)".


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[Alexander Limi]

On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 05:38:26 +0200, Gabrielle Hendryx-Parker  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks to all of you who participated in this effort, we now have a  
> final draft ready for the "Top 15 Questions About Plone" at:
> http://www.openplans.org/projects/plone-marketing/top-ten-questions-about-plone

Thanks for doing this!

Comments/suggestions below:

#4: "A free Plone add-on, RelStorage, also allows enterprises with  
investments in Oracle, MySQL and PostgreSQL to store the data driving  
their Plone site in their existing infrastructure for more robust  
scalability, clustering and failover."

This implies that the ZODB doesn't scale, and that you choose Oracle to do  
so — neither of which are true. ;)

I would drop the scalability argument, the main reason why people use it  
is the "existing infrastructure/standards" and tool support for  
failover/backup/clustering. So, something like:

"A free Plone add-on, RelStorage, also allows enterprises with investments  
in Oracle, MySQL and PostgreSQL to store the data driving their Plone site  
in their existing infrastructure to be able to make use of familiar tools,  
clustering and failover solutions."

Not perfect, but you get the idea, and I'm sure you can make it better. :)



#5: Maybe mention something like "As an example, plone.org is one of the  
few web sites in the world that has a 9 out of 10 PageRank in Google, the  
same as major sites like those of IBM and Microsoft."

It's a nice soundbite that people remember, and it's true. :)


The document looks great!


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[Donna Snow (SnowWrite)-2]

Thank you so much for working on this document. I missed last Friday's Plone Tune-up, I had a training session and I didn't hear about Thursday's "session" until the day after ( I would have attended). I realize that was a technical (email) issue and unavoidable.

Everything looks fantastic and I'm looking forward to using this at any events where I'll be helping to host a booth.

Great work evangelism team!

Best Regards,
Donna M Snow, Principal
C Squared Enterprises
illuminating your path to Open Source
http://www.csquaredtech.com

On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 4:26 AM, Alexander Limi <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 05:38:26 +0200, Gabrielle Hendryx-Parker <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks to all of you who participated in this effort, we now have a final draft ready for the "Top 15 Questions About Plone" at:
http://www.openplans.org/projects/plone-marketing/top-ten-questions-about-plone

Thanks for doing this!

Comments/suggestions below:

#4: "A free Plone add-on, RelStorage, also allows enterprises with investments in Oracle, MySQL and PostgreSQL to store the data driving their Plone site in their existing infrastructure for more robust scalability, clustering and failover."

This implies that the ZODB doesn't scale, and that you choose Oracle to do so — neither of which are true. ;)

I would drop the scalability argument, the main reason why people use it is the "existing infrastructure/standards" and tool support for failover/backup/clustering. So, something like:

"A free Plone add-on, RelStorage, also allows enterprises with investments in Oracle, MySQL and PostgreSQL to store the data driving their Plone site in their existing infrastructure to be able to make use of familiar tools, clustering and failover solutions."

Not perfect, but you get the idea, and I'm sure you can make it better. :)



#5: Maybe mention something like "As an example, plone.org is one of the few web sites in the world that has a 9 out of 10 PageRank in Google, the same as major sites like those of IBM and Microsoft."

It's a nice soundbite that people remember, and it's true. :)


The document looks great!

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[TxFig]

Gabrielle Hendryx-Parker wrote:
> Please provide feedback by Monday, April 13th so we can move forward  
> with the formatting of the document as a nice Quick Ref Card for  
> integration in conference kits.

Just remember, you did ask...


"#2 - What is Plone? - FINAL
Plone is a powerful and flexible, enterprise-level content management
solution that is easy to install, get started with, and use."

I take exception with this.  It gives the impression that running a
complete Plone system is "easy to use and get started with" for
*everyone*.  This is especially in light of the fact that #1 above it
says "without requiring a high level of technical skill or tools other
than a web browser".



#6 - geez, I'm not sure what to say about this.
Sure, it's easy to download and the installation goes fairly straight
forward.
THEN WHAT?




In fact, this is my main complaint with Plone in general.  It might very
well be easy to use for the end users - but to run the entire system
requires a person who is well versed in Zope/python.  I'm a computer
administrator by profession - and *I* haven't been able to get a Plone
site up and running yet.  What does that say for the "average user"?
Iow, the kb needed to run & maintain a Plone system is WAY under stated.

I have to be honest - I am close to giving up on Plone.

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[Dylan Jay]

On 14/04/2009, at 4:23 AM, Chris Barnes wrote:

> Gabrielle Hendryx-Parker wrote:
>> Please provide feedback by Monday, April 13th so we can move  
>> forward  with the formatting of the document as a nice Quick Ref  
>> Card for  integration in conference kits.
>
> Just remember, you did ask...
>
>
> "#2 - What is Plone? - FINAL
> Plone is a powerful and flexible, enterprise-level content  
> management solution that is easy to install, get started with, and  
> use."
>
> I take exception with this.  It gives the impression that running a  
> complete Plone system is "easy to use and get started with" for  
> *everyone*.  This is especially in light of the fact that #1 above  
> it says "without requiring a high level of technical skill or tools  
> other than a web browser".
>
>
>
> #6 - geez, I'm not sure what to say about this.
> Sure, it's easy to download and the installation goes fairly  
> straight forward.
> THEN WHAT?
>
>
>
>
> In fact, this is my main complaint with Plone in general.  It might  
> very well be easy to use for the end users - but to run the entire  
> system requires a person who is well versed in Zope/python.  I'm a  
> computer administrator by profession - and *I* haven't been able to  
> get a Plone site up and running yet.  What does that say for the  
> "average user"? Iow, the kb needed to run & maintain a Plone system  
> is WAY under stated.

I very much agree with you Chirs, and I install Plone for a living.
We'd all really like Plone to be easy to configure into a working  
system and are working hard to make that happen but...

a) it's not currently the case
b) it's not one of plones competitive advantages
c) it sets a dangerously high expectation that can lead to  
disappointment and resentment.

IMHO we're much better selling plone on it's enterprise grade power.  
The fact thats its both a web CMS and document management system. And  
set the expectation that Plone being Enterprise grade combined with  
consultants produces a fantastic fit to your business needs.
No  one expects SAP to be easy to install do they?

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[Alexander Limi]

On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:23:14 +0200, Chris Barnes  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> In fact, this is my main complaint with Plone in general.  It might very  
> well be easy to use for the end users - but to run the entire system  
> requires a person who is well versed in Zope/python.

To run it — I'd say no. To customize it, absolutely. There's "use" as in  
"end user", and "use" as in develop for / customize. We are very much  
aware that the current approach where Plone straddles multiple large  
pieces of infrastructure (Zope 2, Zope 3 and the CMF), is not ideal. The  
other option would be to dump our current user base and restart  
development in pure Zope 3 (or something else), which was an option that  
was deemed too risky.

> I'm a computer administrator by profession - and *I* haven't been able  
> to get a Plone site up and running yet.  What does that say for the  
> "average user"? Iow, the kb needed to run & maintain a Plone system is  
> WAY under stated.

With the latest advancements in configuration and setup tools (buildout  
being among the major changes here), the core part of this problem will be  
in much better shape than it was a year ago. The main problem as I see it  
at the moment is that not all documentation is current, but the team is  
working on updating the documentation to the current state of the art.

> I have to be honest - I am close to giving up on Plone.

That's sad to hear. Let us know if there are specific things we can help  
with.

There are lots of things we want to make better about Plone — the good  
news is that the team is acutely aware of these issues, and everyone is  
pulling in the same direction to get them fixed. It just takes a bit of  
time, as everything does in a project with a large installed user base,  
where you need to care about upgrades and compatibility.

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[Alexander Limi]

On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 01:51:19 +0200, Dylan Jay  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> IMHO we're much better selling plone on it's enterprise grade power. The  
> fact thats its both a web CMS and document management system. And set  
> the expectation that Plone being Enterprise grade combined with  
> consultants produces a fantastic fit to your business needs.

These are all good points, and do not contradict the other parts of the  
story.

> No  one expects SAP to be easy to install do they?

The thing is, Plone *is* easy to install, and you get a very sophisticated  
setup even when using the base installers. It's just a bit challenging to  
develop for at the moment, something that we're working hard on fixing.

SAP is hard to install *and* hard to develop for. Or maybe just expensive,  
depending on how you look at it. ;)

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[Calvin Hendryx-Parker]

On Apr 14, 2009, at 2:32 AM, Alexander Limi wrote:
>
>> No  one expects SAP to be easy to install do they?
>
> The thing is, Plone *is* easy to install, and you get a very  
> sophisticated setup even when using the base installers. It's just a  
> bit challenging to develop for at the moment, something that we're  
> working hard on fixing.

I agree, Plone is very easy to install.  For those that doubt it I put  
together a posting tonight that outlines an advanced install (and is  
cross platform friendly):

http://immersive-training.net/event-updates/blog/2009/4/13/when-the-plone-installer-isn-t-enough

I hope this can help people realize that even if they need more power  
than what the OOTB installer gives them, it doesn't have to complicate  
things.  Tools like ZopeSkel make sure that you are always using best  
practices and keeps the experience the same no matter what platform  
you are working with.  I even tested this on windows to be sure it  
really worked like it does on my Mac OS X box.

Cheers,
Calvin


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[Gabrielle Hendryx-Parker]

On Apr 11, 2009, at 7:15 AM, Alexander Limi wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 20:20:40 +0200, Jan Ulrich Hasecke <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
>> Then in this text and on the website you write that the Plone  
>> Foundation is a "501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization". 501 in my  
>> memory is a Levis jeans, ;-) I mean outside the USA nobody knows  
>> what 501 means. I would skip it from the text and make perhaps a  
>> footnote.
>
> Yeah, the most relevant bit about 501(c)(3) is "non-profit  
> foundation where donations are tax-deductible (at least in the US)".

GHP: I have updated the "Top 15 Questions" accordingly.

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[Gabrielle Hendryx-Parker]

On Apr 11, 2009, at 7:26 AM, Alexander Limi wrote:

>
> #4: "A free Plone add-on, RelStorage, also allows enterprises with  
> investments in Oracle, MySQL and PostgreSQL to store the data  
> driving their Plone site in their existing infrastructure for more  
> robust scalability, clustering and failover."
>
> This implies that the ZODB doesn't scale, and that you choose Oracle  
> to do so — neither of which are true. ;)
>
> I would drop the scalability argument, the main reason why people  
> use it is the "existing infrastructure/standards" and tool support  
> for failover/backup/clustering. So, something like:
>
> "A free Plone add-on, RelStorage, also allows enterprises with  
> investments in Oracle, MySQL and PostgreSQL to store the data  
> driving their Plone site in their existing infrastructure to be able  
> to make use of familiar tools, clustering and failover solutions."
>

GHP: I have updated the doct accordingly.

>
> #5: Maybe mention something like "As an example, plone.org is one of  
> the few web sites in the world that has a 9 out of 10 PageRank in  
> Google, the same as major sites like those of IBM and Microsoft."

GHP: I have added this to the "Top 15 Questions" doct too.
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[Gabrielle Hendryx-Parker]

On Apr 10, 2009, at 2:20 PM, Jan Ulrich Hasecke wrote:

> Hi,
>
> great work. I am just trying to translate the 15 questions into  
> German and discovered the following.

GHP: Please make sure to update the translation with the recent  
changes as this is still a work in progress.
>
>
> There are repeats in the first two section, concerning the fact that  
> CMS/Plone enable people to create, maintain etc. content only using  
> a browser.

GHP: The whole document is meant to be a reference document, and not  
something you read from start to finish, therefore it is ok for  
content to repeat.
>
>
> Then in this text and on the website you write that the Plone  
> Foundation is a "501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization". 501 in my  
> memory is a Levis jeans, ;-) I mean outside the USA nobody knows  
> what 501 means. I would skip it from the text and make perhaps a  
> footnote

GHP: I have updated the text based on Alex's recommendations.

Thank you,
Gabrielle Hendryx-Parker
CEO
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[Dylan Jay]

Gabrielle, I'm a little confused, can I go in and edit this part  
directly even if its a bit of a departure from what was there  
originally?

see my comments below

On 14/04/2009, at 4:32 PM, Alexander Limi wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 01:51:19 +0200, Dylan Jay <[hidden email]>  
> wrote:
>
>> IMHO we're much better selling plone on it's enterprise grade  
>> power. The fact thats its both a web CMS and document management  
>> system. And set the expectation that Plone being Enterprise grade  
>> combined with consultants produces a fantastic fit to your business  
>> needs.
>
> These are all good points, and do not contradict the other parts of  
> the story.

you are right but the point I was making was that when we sing Plone's  
praises perhaps we pick just our key differentiator for our audience  
so that our message has more impact. I don't think easy to install is  
a key differentiator.
Since its pretty unclear who the audience for these questions is, that  
makes it hard. Is this aimed at getting developers to take on plone as  
a tool or at organisation decision makers looking for a solution.

--
Plone the community open source enterprise content management system.  
It's power comes from it's unique combination of content management,  
document management, workflow, collaboration tools and web theming  
engine.
For those controlling the content of site it provides an easy to use  
yet power web interface.
For those choosing their organisations next web presence or Intranet  
Plone efficiencies by combining several systems into one while  
maintaining integration with existing systems and the highest levels  
of security.
For developers it provides to tools to create anything from a simple  
blog to scalble multiserver global intranet, customised to the exact  
user requirements.

Plone is among the top 2% of all open source projects worldwide, with  
200 core developers and over 300 solution providers in more than 50  
countries.

Plone has been actively developed since 2001, is available in more  
than 40 languages, and has the best security track record of any major  
CMS.

Plone's codebase and intellectual property is owned by the Plone  
Foundation, which is a non-profit organization where donations are tax-
deductible (at least in the US).
--

It's a bit clumsy and could be cut down but I think it has more impact  
yeah?

>> No  one expects SAP to be easy to install do they?
>
> The thing is, Plone *is* easy to install, and you get a very  
> sophisticated setup even when using the base installers. It's just a  
> bit challenging to develop for at the moment, something that we're  
> working hard on fixing.
>
> SAP is hard to install *and* hard to develop for. Or maybe just  
> expensive, depending on how you look at it. ;)
>
> --
> Alexander Limi · http://limi.net
>
>
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[Gabrielle Hendryx-Parker]

Hi Dylan,

This new draft is the results of many discussions and edits. It is  
important that the majority of people in the Community feel  
comfortable with it.

Some of your concerns have been addressed in that we are now  
positioning Plone as an "enterprise quality CMS". However we don't  
feel that Plone is a real DMS and don't think we should position it as  
one in light of the superiority of other products in that field.  
However, we did mention that "Plone is a true CMS with built-in  
publication workflow and document management features" in question #8.

Furthermore, the description of Plone as being an application that is  
easy to use has been better expressed in this new statement: "is easy  
for developers to download and install, and easy for end-users to use."

While these are general guidelines we encourage the Community to  
follow, they should not prevent you from adapting the general message  
to better fit your sales pitch to a specific client. We just can't  
make the exception the rules for everyone.

I hope this addresses your concerns.

Thank you,
Gabrielle Hendryx-Parker
CEO
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On Apr 14, 2009, at 11:28 PM, Dylan Jay wrote:

> Gabrielle, I'm a little confused, can I go in and edit this part  
> directly even if its a bit of a departure from what was there  
> originally?
>
> see my comments below
>
> On 14/04/2009, at 4:32 PM, Alexander Limi wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 01:51:19 +0200, Dylan Jay <[hidden email]>  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> IMHO we're much better selling plone on it's enterprise grade  
>>> power. The fact thats its both a web CMS and document management  
>>> system. And set the expectation that Plone being Enterprise grade  
>>> combined with consultants produces a fantastic fit to your  
>>> business needs.
>>
>> These are all good points, and do not contradict the other parts of  
>> the story.
>
> you are right but the point I was making was that when we sing  
> Plone's praises perhaps we pick just our key differentiator for our  
> audience so that our message has more impact. I don't think easy to  
> install is a key differentiator.
> Since its pretty unclear who the audience for these questions is,  
> that makes it hard. Is this aimed at getting developers to take on  
> plone as a tool or at organisation decision makers looking for a  
> solution.
>
> --
> Plone the community open source enterprise content management  
> system. It's power comes from it's unique combination of content  
> management, document management, workflow, collaboration tools and  
> web theming engine.
> For those controlling the content of site it provides an easy to use  
> yet power web interface.
> For those choosing their organisations next web presence or Intranet  
> Plone efficiencies by combining several systems into one while  
> maintaining integration with existing systems and the highest levels  
> of security.
> For developers it provides to tools to create anything from a simple  
> blog to scalble multiserver global intranet, customised to the exact  
> user requirements.
>
> Plone is among the top 2% of all open source projects worldwide,  
> with 200 core developers and over 300 solution providers in more  
> than 50 countries.
>
> Plone has been actively developed since 2001, is available in more  
> than 40 languages, and has the best security track record of any  
> major CMS.
>
> Plone's codebase and intellectual property is owned by the Plone  
> Foundation, which is a non-profit organization where donations are  
> tax-deductible (at least in the US).
> --
>
> It's a bit clumsy and could be cut down but I think it has more  
> impact yeah?
>
>
>
>>> No  one expects SAP to be easy to install do they?
>>
>> The thing is, Plone *is* easy to install, and you get a very  
>> sophisticated setup even when using the base installers. It's just  
>> a bit challenging to develop for at the moment, something that  
>> we're working hard on fixing.
>>
>> SAP is hard to install *and* hard to develop for. Or maybe just  
>> expensive, depending on how you look at it. ;)
>>
>> --
>> Alexander Limi · http://limi.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Evangelism mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/evangelism
>

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[Dylan Jay]

On 15/04/2009, at 10:45 PM, Gabrielle Hendryx-Parker wrote:

> Hi Dylan,
>
> This new draft is the results of many discussions and edits. It is  
> important that the majority of people in the Community feel  
> comfortable with it.
>
> Some of your concerns have been addressed in that we are now  
> positioning Plone as an "enterprise quality CMS". However we don't  
> feel that Plone is a real DMS and don't think we should position it  
> as one in light of the superiority of other products in that

yeah fair call about DCMs. I don't mean to be disrespectful to the  
work already done. I was just hoping we can come up with something  
really compelling that reflects plone real differences. Drupal can't  
combine document repository type functionality with a web CMS the way  
plone can but it is easy to install. You guys are the experts though.

> field. However, we did mention that "Plone is a true CMS with built-
> in publication

> workflow and document management features" in question #8.
>
> Furthermore, the description of Plone as being an application that  
> is easy to use has been better expressed in this new statement: "is  
> easy for developers to download and install, and easy for end-users  
> to use."
>
> While these are general guidelines we encourage the Community to  
> follow, they should not prevent you from adapting the general  
> message to better fit your sales pitch to a specific client. We just  
> can't make the exception the rules for everyone.
>
> I hope this addresses your concerns.
>
> Thank you,
> Gabrielle Hendryx-Parker
> CEO
> --
> S i x  F e e t  U p ,  I n c .  |  http://www.sixfeetup.com
> Phone: [phone] x601
> [hidden email]
> ANNOUNCING the first Plone Immersive Training Experience | Sept.  
> 10-11-12, 2009
> http://www.sixfeetup.com/immerse
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 14, 2009, at 11:28 PM, Dylan Jay wrote:
>
>> Gabrielle, I'm a little confused, can I go in and edit this part  
>> directly even if its a bit of a departure from what was there  
>> originally?
>>
>> see my comments below
>>
>> On 14/04/2009, at 4:32 PM, Alexander Limi wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 01:51:19 +0200, Dylan Jay <[hidden email]>  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> IMHO we're much better selling plone on it's enterprise grade  
>>>> power. The fact thats its both a web CMS and document management  
>>>> system. And set the expectation that Plone being Enterprise grade  
>>>> combined with consultants produces a fantastic fit to your  
>>>> business needs.
>>>
>>> These are all good points, and do not contradict the other parts  
>>> of the story.
>>
>> you are right but the point I was making was that when we sing  
>> Plone's praises perhaps we pick just our key differentiator for our  
>> audience so that our message has more impact. I don't think easy to  
>> install is a key differentiator.
>> Since its pretty unclear who the audience for these questions is,  
>> that makes it hard. Is this aimed at getting developers to take on  
>> plone as a tool or at organisation decision makers looking for a  
>> solution.
>>
>> --
>> Plone the community open source enterprise content management  
>> system. It's power comes from it's unique combination of content  
>> management, document management, workflow, collaboration tools and  
>> web theming engine.
>> For those controlling the content of site it provides an easy to  
>> use yet power web interface.
>> For those choosing their organisations next web presence or  
>> Intranet Plone efficiencies by combining several systems into one  
>> while maintaining integration with existing systems and the highest  
>> levels of security.
>> For developers it provides to tools to create anything from a  
>> simple blog to scalble multiserver global intranet, customised to  
>> the exact user requirements.
>>
>> Plone is among the top 2% of all open source projects worldwide,  
>> with 200 core developers and over 300 solution providers in more  
>> than 50 countries.
>>
>> Plone has been actively developed since 2001, is available in more  
>> than 40 languages, and has the best security track record of any  
>> major CMS.
>>
>> Plone's codebase and intellectual property is owned by the Plone  
>> Foundation, which is a non-profit organization where donations are  
>> tax-deductible (at least in the US).
>> --
>>
>> It's a bit clumsy and could be cut down but I think it has more  
>> impact yeah?
>>
>>
>>
>>>> No  one expects SAP to be easy to install do they?
>>>
>>> The thing is, Plone *is* easy to install, and you get a very  
>>> sophisticated setup even when using the base installers. It's just  
>>> a bit challenging to develop for at the moment, something that  
>>> we're working hard on fixing.
>>>
>>> SAP is hard to install *and* hard to develop for. Or maybe just  
>>> expensive, depending on how you look at it. ;)
>>>
>>> --
>>> Alexander Limi · http://limi.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Evangelism mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/evangelism
>>
>

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[TxFig]

Alexander Limi wrote:
> The thing is, Plone *is* easy to install, and you get a very sophisticated  
> setup even when using the base installers. It's just a bit challenging to  
> develop for at the moment, something that we're working hard on fixing.
>
> SAP is hard to install *and* hard to develop for. Or maybe just expensive,  
> depending on how you look at it. ;)

I hate to sound like Bill Clinton, but it depends on what you mean by
"install".

As I said in my previous note, yes, the program itself installs with
relative ease.  But few people would consider that to be the end of the
installation.   The "real installation" isn't finished until there is a
working product up and running.


In my case, I have a small non-profit group where I run a ubuntu server
to host their domain (mailman, apache website, vBulletin, etc).  The
people in the group are the ones that need to be able to maintain the
content of the website, but they are not web literate.   Otoh, just
because I can do system admin, and can do *some* webpage stuff, it
doesn't mean I'm versed in python (or really any other programming
language).

I do this pro-bono in my spare time.  Which means I really don't have
the inclination to learn an entire language.

So.... I still need a CMS system for this group.  I am convinced that it
is "the right choice".  But from the looks of what I have experienced,
it doesn't seem that Plone is the right choice for me.  What I don't
know is if *any* CMS system will do what I'm looking for...

--

Chris Barnes                              AOL IM: CNBarnes
[hidden email] (also MSN IM)        Yahoo IM: chrisnbarnes


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[Calvin Hendryx-Parker]

On Apr 15, 2009, at 10:45 AM, Chris Barnes wrote:

> Alexander Limi wrote:
>> The thing is, Plone *is* easy to install, and you get a very  
>> sophisticated  setup even when using the base installers. It's just  
>> a bit challenging to  develop for at the moment, something that  
>> we're working hard on fixing.
>> SAP is hard to install *and* hard to develop for. Or maybe just  
>> expensive,  depending on how you look at it. ;)
>
> I hate to sound like Bill Clinton, but it depends on what you mean  
> by "install".
>
> As I said in my previous note, yes, the program itself installs with  
> relative ease.  But few people would consider that to be the end of  
> the installation.   The "real installation" isn't finished until  
> there is a working product up and running.

What constitutes up and running for you?  The default install will  
leave you with a site you can place up live behind a proxy.

> In my case, I have a small non-profit group where I run a ubuntu  
> server to host their domain (mailman, apache website, vBulletin,  
> etc).  The people in the group are the ones that need to be able to  
> maintain the content of the website, but they are not web  
> literate.   Otoh, just because I can do system admin, and can do  
> *some* webpage stuff, it doesn't mean I'm versed in python (or  
> really any other programming language).
>
> I do this pro-bono in my spare time.  Which means I really don't  
> have the inclination to learn an entire language.

Why does deploying a Plone site mean you need to learn Python?  There  
are many people out there creating great looking sites and they don't  
know a lick of Python to to it.  They are using a combination of third  
party add-ons (which are easy to install with buildout) and a theme  
product that you can generate from ZopeSkel.

What part of our install story is lacking in your mind so we an  
address it.  I think it would be helpful feedback to get from you.

Cheers,
Cal

--
S i x  F e e t  U p ,  I n c .  |  http://www.sixfeetup.com
Phone: [phone] x602
[hidden email]
ANNOUNCING the first Plone Immersive Training Experience | Sept.  
10-11-12, 2009
http://sixfeetup.com/immerse




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