Thoughts on championing OOTB themes

[vedaw]

Please sign up if you're interested in helping with the OOTB theming story. My goal right now is to figure out timeline, skill level / type of experience, and major objectives. We're open to everybody from designers, programmers, documentation people, marketing folks, you name it.

http://www.openplans.org/projects/ootb-plone-themes/project-home

Bear with me, this is my first open plans project, so it'll be a work in progress until I get the hang of it.

- Veda

[Tim Knapp]

On Thu, 2008-02-21 at 14:00 -0800, vedaw wrote:
> Hey Paul,
>
> I'm all in favor of supporting Deliverance, I just don't want to get bogged
> down in people having to learn how to use it just so that we can get themes
> to ship with Plone. That said, if there's someone on the list who would like
> to volunteer as a guinea pig on this, that's totally fine by me.

I'm happy to be a guinea pig :) I've actually already done some hacking
around with Deliverance and in all honesty it isn't very difficult to
use. Put it this way, a lot easier to use than learning Plone 3
skinning :) Only issue is, AFAICT you've gotta be using plone in a wsgi
pipeline and last I heard that isn't 100% supported on all plone 3.0.x
releases at this stage (Plone + friends-eggification being one hurdle).

-Tim

>  Let me
> finish getting the OpenPlans site up so we can start laying down some
> objectives. I'd love to include Deliverance as a side part of this project.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Paul Everitt-3 wrote:
> >
> >
> > 4) "Embrace Deliverance" was part of the *strategy* summit, which was
> > focused on longer-term, more substantial fixes.  Thus,  Veda's effort
> > (and this thread) are still useful for near-term attention.
> >
> > 4) David is right...if Deliverance is done right, then thousands of
> > themes should be immediately.
> >
> > 5) Tom's "barebones" skin is indeed an activity.  Tres and I started on
> > a "CMFXHTML" skin for CMF to explore ideas on this.  It's focused on
> > packing the maximum of semantics into the HTML and the minimum of
> > chrome/theme.
> >
> >
>

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[David Bain-5]

Just dropping in an additional couple cents.
Deliverance is easier (tm). It actually reduces the skinning learning
curve, well almost eliminates it. but all the kinks aren't out of it
yet.

So for now let's get this OOTB thing going.


On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 5:44 PM, Tim Knapp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, 2008-02-21 at 14:00 -0800, vedaw wrote:
>  > Hey Paul,
>  >
>  > I'm all in favor of supporting Deliverance, I just don't want to get bogged
>  > down in people having to learn how to use it just so that we can get themes
>  > to ship with Plone. That said, if there's someone on the list who would like
>  > to volunteer as a guinea pig on this, that's totally fine by me.
>
>  I'm happy to be a guinea pig :) I've actually already done some hacking
>  around with Deliverance and in all honesty it isn't very difficult to
>  use. Put it this way, a lot easier to use than learning Plone 3
>  skinning :) Only issue is, AFAICT you've gotta be using plone in a wsgi
>  pipeline and last I heard that isn't 100% supported on all plone 3.0.x
>  releases at this stage (Plone + friends-eggification being one hurdle).
>
>  -Tim
>
>
>  >  Let me
>  > finish getting the OpenPlans site up so we can start laying down some
>  > objectives. I'd love to include Deliverance as a side part of this project.
>  >
>  > Thanks!
>  >
>  >
>  > Paul Everitt-3 wrote:
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > 4) "Embrace Deliverance" was part of the *strategy* summit, which was
>  > > focused on longer-term, more substantial fixes.  Thus,  Veda's effort
>  > > (and this thread) are still useful for near-term attention.
>  > >
>  > > 4) David is right...if Deliverance is done right, then thousands of
>  > > themes should be immediately.
>  > >
>  > > 5) Tom's "barebones" skin is indeed an activity.  Tres and I started on
>  > > a "CMFXHTML" skin for CMF to explore ideas on this.  It's focused on
>  > > packing the maximum of semantics into the HTML and the minimum of
>  > > chrome/theme.
>  > >
>  > >
>  >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  Product-Developers mailing list
>  [hidden email]
>  http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/product-developers
>

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[Espen Moe-Nilssen]

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

Hi

something quick before I leave for the weekend.

I think we should consider that many people that will use the OOTB skins are newbes and need consistensy.

With that I mean that it can be a bit confusing if one skin has another name on the global-nav than the other.

Would it be possible to use deliverace (which I know almost nothing about) to convert skins to plone, and we could then go through them (manually) and clean up / fix?

Also, keep in mind that IE problems with deliverence might be a problem as we might end up getting "hacks on hacks".

Den 22. feb. 2008 kl. 02.00 skrev David Bain:

Just dropping in an additional couple cents.

Deliverance is easier (tm). It actually reduces the skinning learning

curve, well almost eliminates it. but all the kinks aren't out of it

yet.

So for now let's get this OOTB thing going.

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 5:44 PM, Tim Knapp <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, 2008-02-21 at 14:00 -0800, vedaw wrote:

Hey Paul,

I'm all in favor of supporting Deliverance, I just don't want to get bogged

down in people having to learn how to use it just so that we can get themes

to ship with Plone. That said, if there's someone on the list who would like

to volunteer as a guinea pig on this, that's totally fine by me.

 I'm happy to be a guinea pig :) I've actually already done some hacking

 around with Deliverance and in all honesty it isn't very difficult to

 use. Put it this way, a lot easier to use than learning Plone 3

 skinning :) Only issue is, AFAICT you've gotta be using plone in a wsgi

 pipeline and last I heard that isn't 100% supported on all plone 3.0.x

 releases at this stage (Plone + friends-eggification being one hurdle).

 -Tim

 Let me

finish getting the OpenPlans site up so we can start laying down some

objectives. I'd love to include Deliverance as a side part of this project.

Thanks!

Paul Everitt-3 wrote:

4) "Embrace Deliverance" was part of the *strategy* summit, which was

focused on longer-term, more substantial fixes.  Thus,  Veda's effort

(and this thread) are still useful for near-term attention.

4) David is right...if Deliverance is done right, then thousands of

themes should be immediately.

5) Tom's "barebones" skin is indeed an activity.  Tres and I started on

a "CMFXHTML" skin for CMF to explore ideas on this.  It's focused on

packing the maximum of semantics into the HTML and the minimum of

chrome/theme.

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[Paul Everitt-3]

Espen Moe-Nilssen wrote:
> Hi
> something quick before I leave for the weekend.
>
>
> I think we should consider that many people that will use the OOTB skins
> are newbes and need consistensy.

Right.  It will be interesting to see which proves easier to tinker with
for total newbies: something like DIY or something like Deliverance.

> With that I mean that it can be a bit confusing if one skin has another
> name on the global-nav than the other.

Can you explain?

> Would it be possible to use deliverace (which I know almost nothing
> about) to convert skins to plone, and we could then go through them
> (manually) and clean up / fix?

It's an interesting idea...a tool that reads an existing main_template,
then takes the corporate ID part out and generates a new,
content-focused main_template.

> Also, keep in mind that IE problems with deliverence might be a problem
> as we might end up getting "hacks on hacks".

Deliverance shouldn't have any different problems with IE than Plone skins.

--Paul


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[David Bain-5]

Some more thoughts on the Theming meme. I think that part of the
process could be creating the themes initially through the web. This
lowers the bar on who can create the theme. Then the TTW themes could
be submitted as zexps which would be 'packaged' by product developers.

If we create enough guidelines would could get some pretty good zexps
out of designers.


On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 8:00 PM, David Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just dropping in an additional couple cents.
>  Deliverance is easier (tm). It actually reduces the skinning learning
>  curve, well almost eliminates it. but all the kinks aren't out of it
>  yet.
>
>  So for now let's get this OOTB thing going.
>
>
>
>
>  On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 5:44 PM, Tim Knapp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  > On Thu, 2008-02-21 at 14:00 -0800, vedaw wrote:
>  >  > Hey Paul,
>  >  >
>  >  > I'm all in favor of supporting Deliverance, I just don't want to get bogged
>  >  > down in people having to learn how to use it just so that we can get themes
>  >  > to ship with Plone. That said, if there's someone on the list who would like
>  >  > to volunteer as a guinea pig on this, that's totally fine by me.
>  >
>  >  I'm happy to be a guinea pig :) I've actually already done some hacking
>  >  around with Deliverance and in all honesty it isn't very difficult to
>  >  use. Put it this way, a lot easier to use than learning Plone 3
>  >  skinning :) Only issue is, AFAICT you've gotta be using plone in a wsgi
>  >  pipeline and last I heard that isn't 100% supported on all plone 3.0.x
>  >  releases at this stage (Plone + friends-eggification being one hurdle).
>  >
>  >  -Tim
>  >
>  >
>  >  >  Let me
>  >  > finish getting the OpenPlans site up so we can start laying down some
>  >  > objectives. I'd love to include Deliverance as a side part of this project.
>  >  >
>  >  > Thanks!
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  > Paul Everitt-3 wrote:
>  >  > >
>  >  > >
>  >  > > 4) "Embrace Deliverance" was part of the *strategy* summit, which was
>  >  > > focused on longer-term, more substantial fixes.  Thus,  Veda's effort
>  >  > > (and this thread) are still useful for near-term attention.
>  >  > >
>  >  > > 4) David is right...if Deliverance is done right, then thousands of
>  >  > > themes should be immediately.
>  >  > >
>  >  > > 5) Tom's "barebones" skin is indeed an activity.  Tres and I started on
>  >  > > a "CMFXHTML" skin for CMF to explore ideas on this.  It's focused on
>  >  > > packing the maximum of semantics into the HTML and the minimum of
>  >  > > chrome/theme.
>  >  > >
>  >  > >
>  >  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > _______________________________________________
>  >  Product-Developers mailing list
>  >  [hidden email]
>  >  http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/product-developers
>  >
>

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[vedaw]

I suppose if people express it as a need, we'll find a way to work with them. So far, the folks that have signed up to do skinning have a pretty solid knowledge of how to use filesystem development, but we'll keep that door open if need be.

- Veda

David Bain-5 wrote:

Some more thoughts on the Theming meme. I think that part of the
process could be creating the themes initially through the web. This
lowers the bar on who can create the theme. Then the TTW themes could
be submitted as zexps which would be 'packaged' by product developers.

If we create enough guidelines would could get some pretty good zexps
out of designers.

[David Bain-5]

I'm advocating that the finished themes end up as filesystem based
themes, but to lower the bar for contributors we would accept TTW
themes.

So there would two roles involved, a larger group of TTW themers who
pass their zexps to a smaller group of Filesystem 'packagers'.

On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 12:31 PM, vedaw <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>  I might be speaking a little out of line here, but I don't think we should go
>  in the direction of TTW theming. Filesystem development is cleaner, easy to
>  backup, even easier to share, etc. The whole point of having great tools
>  like DIYPS / paster / ZopeSkel / Deliverance is to make the theming process
>  easier, and I don't think going backwords and forcing people to work through
>  the ZMI is a wise move. Just my 2 cents.
>
>  - Veda
>
>
>
>
>  David Bain-5 wrote:
>  >
>  > Some more thoughts on the Theming meme. I think that part of the
>  > process could be creating the themes initially through the web. This
>  > lowers the bar on who can create the theme. Then the TTW themes could
>  > be submitted as zexps which would be 'packaged' by product developers.
>  >
>  > If we create enough guidelines would could get some pretty good zexps
>  > out of designers.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>
>  --
>  View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Thoughts-on-championing-OOTB-themes-tp15598172s20094p15879280.html
>
> Sent from the Product Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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>
>
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>

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