Switching to Java 6

[aaime]

Hi all,
with this mail I'm trying to start discussion on this controversial
subject: shall we switch to Java 6 as the minimum requirement for
GeoTools (and GeoServer/uDig?).

Pros for Java 6
- we can use more up to date API
- most developers nowadays have it installed
- Sun is ending support for Java 5 and it's making it hard to
   have a copy of it

Cons
- IBM just recently made available a working JDK 6 and I have
   the impression (please confirm/deny) that most existing
   deployments of WebSphere and WebLogic are still stuck on
   Java 6
- Same goes for OSX? I think that people are forced to pay
   the Apple tax in order to get a working Java 6?
   (aka upgrade to snow leopard?)

I guess we could switch trunk, that would give Java 5 only environment
some 6 months of extra breathing room?

Opinions?

Cheers
Andrea

--
Andrea Aime
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
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[Pieter De Graef-2]

Although I'm new on this list, but I wouldn't mind seeing GeoTools make
the switch to Java6 over time.
I would assume IBM is working hard on getting this up and running, so +1
from me.


Andrea Aime schreef:

> Hi all,
> with this mail I'm trying to start discussion on this controversial
> subject: shall we switch to Java 6 as the minimum requirement for
> GeoTools (and GeoServer/uDig?).
>
> Pros for Java 6
> - we can use more up to date API
> - most developers nowadays have it installed
> - Sun is ending support for Java 5 and it's making it hard to
>    have a copy of it
>
> Cons
> - IBM just recently made available a working JDK 6 and I have
>    the impression (please confirm/deny) that most existing
>    deployments of WebSphere and WebLogic are still stuck on
>    Java 6
> - Same goes for OSX? I think that people are forced to pay
>    the Apple tax in order to get a working Java 6?
>    (aka upgrade to snow leopard?)
>
> I guess we could switch trunk, that would give Java 5 only environment
> some 6 months of extra breathing room?
>
> Opinions?
>
> Cheers
> Andrea
>
>  

--
Pieter De Graef

GeoSparc nv.
http://www.geosparc.com/

Sponsor of: http://www.geomajas.org/



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[mbedward]

Hi Andrea,

Regarding Macs, Java 6 was available in OSX 10.5 (Leopard) but only
worked with 64 bit machines. Those with older hardware (like me) have
to upgrade to 10.6 (Cold Cat as Jody calls it) to be able to run Java
6 on our 32 bit machines.

I haven't done this yet because there seemed to be quite a lot of
teething troubles reported with 10.6 across a range of apps and Jody
has had to fall back to Java 5 every so often with GeoTools builds.

Michael

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[Jody Garnett-2]

I think that switching to Java 6 would be okay for 2.7 series; +1

>> - Same goes for OSX? I think that people are forced to pay
>>    the Apple tax in order to get a working Java 6?
>>    (aka upgrade to snow leopard?)

That is correct.
Jody

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[aaime]

Michael Bedward ha scritto:

> Hi Andrea,
>
> Regarding Macs, Java 6 was available in OSX 10.5 (Leopard) but only
> worked with 64 bit machines. Those with older hardware (like me) have
> to upgrade to 10.6 (Cold Cat as Jody calls it) to be able to run Java
> 6 on our 32 bit machines.
>
> I haven't done this yet because there seemed to be quite a lot of
> teething troubles reported with 10.6 across a range of apps and Jody
> has had to fall back to Java 5 every so often with GeoTools builds.

Mumble.. you're working mostly on trunk. This means that if we switch to
Java 6 on trunk we're pushing you out of the door? :-(

Cheers
Andrea


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[Christian Müller-3]

 -1 from my side for the geoserver base (2.6). The most common Websphere
installations are 6.x based on Java 5.

Is there a point in time where we plan to use 2.7.x for geoserver ?

We should support at at least 2 java versions, so I would wait until the
first app servers use java 7. At this point in time we could drop java 5
support.



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[aaime]

Christian Müller ha scritto:
> -1 from my side for the geoserver base (2.6). The most common Websphere
> installations are 6.x based on Java 5.
> Is there a point in time where we plan to use 2.7.x for geoserver ?

The current GS trunk, which is probably turning into 2.1 release in a
few months (6 months guesstimate, which of course can be deeply wrong)

> We should support at at least 2 java versions, so I would wait until the
> first app servers use java 7. At this point in time we could drop java 5
> support.

Makes sense. Wondering how we'd go about dealing with java 5 not being
downloadable anymore from Sun sites. My worry is more or less about
how hard it is to get new developers contributing to GeoTools (anyone
of us already has copies of Java 5 lying around, we're not the problem)

Cheers
Andrea



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[aaime]

Andrea Aime ha scritto:
> Christian Müller ha scritto:

> Makes sense. Wondering how we'd go about dealing with java 5 not being
> downloadable anymore from Sun sites. My worry is more or less about
> how hard it is to get new developers contributing to GeoTools (anyone
> of us already has copies of Java 5 lying around, we're not the problem)

I'm actually overstating the problem. It's not like it's impossible to
get, Sun just made it hard. You have to:
- go into the "previous releases" section at the top of the Java 6
download page
- fill a form telling Sun that yes, you really want to download it
   and provide your mail address
- get the mail that in fact contains this direct link:
   http://java.sun.com/javase/downloads/5u22/jdk
- finally download the software

I guess we could just publish the link in our developer guide
(it has no access restrictions that I can see, nor the mail contains
  any request not to redistribute the link)

Cheers
Andrea

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[Christian Müller-3]

I think you dont overstate the problem. A quick look on the ibm donload page
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/jdk/index.html?S_TACT=105AGX02&S_CMP= 
HP shows the same problem. You get all versions for ix systems. but only the
java runtime for windows. I remember that I tried to get an ibm windows sdk
and this was a little bit tricky (It is possible but I dont rember how to).

Anyway, supporting 2 java versions is a good idea, developing with the older
version und checking builds with the newer one.

 

 


Andrea Aime writes:

> Andrea Aime ha scritto:
>> Christian Müller ha scritto:
>
>> Makes sense. Wondering how we'd go about dealing with java 5 not being
>> downloadable anymore from Sun sites. My worry is more or less about
>> how hard it is to get new developers contributing to GeoTools (anyone
>> of us already has copies of Java 5 lying around, we're not the problem)
>
> I'm actually overstating the problem. It's not like it's impossible to
> get, Sun just made it hard. You have to:
> - go into the "previous releases" section at the top of the Java 6
> download page
> - fill a form telling Sun that yes, you really want to download it
>   and provide your mail address
> - get the mail that in fact contains this direct link:
>   http://java.sun.com/javase/downloads/5u22/jdk
> - finally download the software
>
> I guess we could just publish the link in our developer guide
> (it has no access restrictions that I can see, nor the mail contains
>  any request not to redistribute the link)
>
> Cheers
> Andrea
>
> --
> Andrea Aime
> OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
> Expert service straight from the developers.

 


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[Justin Deoliveira]

Just to weight in, I don;t have too strong an opinion. I am definitely
+1 for moving trunk to Java 6 as I think it is time. But if the
inconvenience is deemed unacceptable by those running on mac and ibm
platforms I would be ok with having it stay put as well.

2c.

-Justin

Andrea Aime wrote:

> Hi all,
> with this mail I'm trying to start discussion on this controversial
> subject: shall we switch to Java 6 as the minimum requirement for
> GeoTools (and GeoServer/uDig?).
>
> Pros for Java 6
> - we can use more up to date API
> - most developers nowadays have it installed
> - Sun is ending support for Java 5 and it's making it hard to
>    have a copy of it
>
> Cons
> - IBM just recently made available a working JDK 6 and I have
>    the impression (please confirm/deny) that most existing
>    deployments of WebSphere and WebLogic are still stuck on
>    Java 6
> - Same goes for OSX? I think that people are forced to pay
>    the Apple tax in order to get a working Java 6?
>    (aka upgrade to snow leopard?)
>
> I guess we could switch trunk, that would give Java 5 only environment
> some 6 months of extra breathing room?
>
> Opinions?
>
> Cheers
> Andrea
>

--
Justin Deoliveira
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
Enterprise support for open source geospatial.

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[Chris Holmes]

I think one thing we did in the past was put up a poll for users of
GeoServer.  Might be nice to do that for users of
geoserver/udig/geotools.  In general I don't want to leave anyone
behind, and unless there's compelling reason to upgrade to 6 - new
features that we don't get, I think it makes sense to stay compatible
with 5.

I don't think we need to require new developers to figure out how to get
5 installed, they could code in 6, we'd just do code reviews in 5, and
once they become core devs they'd be expected to keep their code 5
compatible.  And we'd have a build server in 5.

I tend to be very conservative on this stuff, but I know that lots of
production environments have strong sys admins who take a stance that if
it's not broken than don't fix it.  It'd be lame to force them to
upgrade just to try out our latest software.

So I'm with Christian - wait till the release of Java 7.

Justin Deoliveira wrote:

> Just to weight in, I don;t have too strong an opinion. I am definitely
> +1 for moving trunk to Java 6 as I think it is time. But if the
> inconvenience is deemed unacceptable by those running on mac and ibm
> platforms I would be ok with having it stay put as well.
>
> 2c.
>
> -Justin
>
> Andrea Aime wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> with this mail I'm trying to start discussion on this controversial
>> subject: shall we switch to Java 6 as the minimum requirement for
>> GeoTools (and GeoServer/uDig?).
>>
>> Pros for Java 6
>> - we can use more up to date API
>> - most developers nowadays have it installed
>> - Sun is ending support for Java 5 and it's making it hard to
>>    have a copy of it
>>
>> Cons
>> - IBM just recently made available a working JDK 6 and I have
>>    the impression (please confirm/deny) that most existing
>>    deployments of WebSphere and WebLogic are still stuck on
>>    Java 6
>> - Same goes for OSX? I think that people are forced to pay
>>    the Apple tax in order to get a working Java 6?
>>    (aka upgrade to snow leopard?)
>>
>> I guess we could switch trunk, that would give Java 5 only environment
>> some 6 months of extra breathing room?
>>
>> Opinions?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Andrea
>>
>

--
Chris Holmes
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
Expert service straight from the developers.

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[aaime]

Chris Holmes ha scritto:
> I think one thing we did in the past was put up a poll for users of
> GeoServer.  Might be nice to do that for users of
> geoserver/udig/geotools.  In general I don't want to leave anyone
> behind, and unless there's compelling reason to upgrade to 6 - new
> features that we don't get, I think it makes sense to stay compatible
> with 5.

Actually already started an informal poll on the users list,
so far just one two answers, one pro and one cons, the cons one
being a Websphere user in fact

Cheers
Andrea

--
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[Chris Holmes]

Andrea Aime wrote:

> Chris Holmes ha scritto:
>> I think one thing we did in the past was put up a poll for users of
>> GeoServer.  Might be nice to do that for users of
>> geoserver/udig/geotools.  In general I don't want to leave anyone
>> behind, and unless there's compelling reason to upgrade to 6 - new
>> features that we don't get, I think it makes sense to stay compatible
>> with 5.
>
> Actually already started an informal poll on the users list,
> so far just one two answers, one pro and one cons, the cons one
> being a Websphere user in fact
>

Yeah, I was thinking more of a web poll, with a blog post.  Maybe even a
link from the home page.  Then more people would know about it, and
would just have to click one button to make their opinion known.

> Cheers
> Andrea
>

--
Chris Holmes
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
Expert service straight from the developers.

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[Simone Giannecchini]

Chiming in late just to say that I second what Justing says, I am +1
for moving trunk to Java 6 as well.

Ciao,
Simone.
-------------------------------------------------------
Ing. Simone Giannecchini
GeoSolutions S.A.S.
Founder - Software Engineer
Via Carignoni 51
55041  Camaiore (LU)
Italy

phone: [phone]
fax:      [phone]
mob:    [phone]


http://www.geo-solutions.it
http://geo-solutions.blogspot.com/
http://simboss.blogspot.com/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/simonegiannecchini

-------------------------------------------------------



On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Justin Deoliveira <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just to weight in, I don;t have too strong an opinion. I am definitely
> +1 for moving trunk to Java 6 as I think it is time. But if the
> inconvenience is deemed unacceptable by those running on mac and ibm
> platforms I would be ok with having it stay put as well.
>
> 2c.
>
> -Justin
>
> Andrea Aime wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> with this mail I'm trying to start discussion on this controversial
>> subject: shall we switch to Java 6 as the minimum requirement for
>> GeoTools (and GeoServer/uDig?).
>>
>> Pros for Java 6
>> - we can use more up to date API
>> - most developers nowadays have it installed
>> - Sun is ending support for Java 5 and it's making it hard to
>>    have a copy of it
>>
>> Cons
>> - IBM just recently made available a working JDK 6 and I have
>>    the impression (please confirm/deny) that most existing
>>    deployments of WebSphere and WebLogic are still stuck on
>>    Java 6
>> - Same goes for OSX? I think that people are forced to pay
>>    the Apple tax in order to get a working Java 6?
>>    (aka upgrade to snow leopard?)
>>
>> I guess we could switch trunk, that would give Java 5 only environment
>> some 6 months of extra breathing room?
>>
>> Opinions?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Andrea
>>
>
> --
> Justin Deoliveira
> OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
> Enterprise support for open source geospatial.
>
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[mbedward]

Hi

I just realized I commented but forgot to vote.

-1 on switching now, taking into account problems mentioned by
Christian and for Mac.

+1 for switching when 2.7.0 is released

Michael

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