Status of SmartEiffel (alive or dead)

[Воронов Роман]

Hello! I like SmartEiffel and I don't like other implementations of Eiffel. So, tell me please what is the status of SmartEiffel project now? Is it alive or not?

I would like to hope that SmartEiffel is alive!

Regards!

[Cyril ADRIAN]

Hello,

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Воронов Роман <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello! I like SmartEiffel and I don't like other implementations of Eiffel. So, tell me please what is the status of SmartEiffel project now? Is it alive or not?

Moribund. Not exactly dead but the flame is almost extinct.

I'm one of the core developers... I have no news of the others. I don't even know where the leader is or what he is currently working on.

Dominique, if you are still around please say hello... And if you don't feel like going on please by all means SAY IT too! The future of SmartEiffel is too uncertain.

I would like to hope that SmartEiffel is alive!

Sorry about that.

Regards,
--
Cyril ADRIAN

http://www.cadrian.net/~cyril

[helmut.brandl]

I once was a user of SmallEiffel and SmartEiffel as well. I did not like
EiffelStudio because of its enormous footprint and its license.

Unfortunately SmartEiffel seems to be inactive for more that 2 years now.

In order to have a viable EiffelStudio alternative I have founded my own
Eiffel compiler project tecomp which is pretty advanced now but has not
yet reached the maturity Smarteiffel had previously.

Helmut

http://tecomp.sourceforge.net
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/tecomp


Cyril ADRIAN wrote:

> Hello,
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Воронов Роман <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hello! I like SmartEiffel and I don't like other implementations of
>     Eiffel. So, tell me please what is the status of SmartEiffel project
>     now? Is it alive or not?
>
>
> Moribund. Not exactly dead but the flame is almost extinct.
>
> I'm one of the core developers... I have no news of the others. I don't
> even know where the leader is or what he is currently working on.
>
> *Dominique, if you are still around please say hello... And if you don't
> feel like going on please by all means SAY IT too! The future of
> SmartEiffel is too uncertain.
> *
>
>     I would like to hope that SmartEiffel is alive!
>
>
> Sorry about that.
>
> Regards,
> --
> Cyril ADRIAN
>
> http://www.cadrian.net/~cyril <http://www.cadrian.net/%7Ecyril>

[Dominique Colnet]

On Tue, 2009-06-16 at 16:21 +0200, Cyril ADRIAN wrote:
> Hello,
Hi all,
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Воронов Роман <[hidden email]> wrote:
>         Hello! I like SmartEiffel and I don't like other
>         implementations of Eiffel. So, tell me please what is the
>         status of SmartEiffel project now? Is it alive or not?
>
> Moribund. Not exactly dead but the flame is almost extinct.
For sure.
>
> I'm one of the core developers... I have no news of the others. I
> don't even know where the leader is or what he is currently working
> on.
>
> Dominique, if you are still around please say hello... And if you
Hello ;-)
>  don't feel like going on please by all means SAY IT too! The future
> of SmartEiffel is too uncertain.
>         I would like to hope that SmartEiffel is alive!

> Sorry about that.
> Regards,
> --
> Cyril ADRIAN
>
> http://www.cadrian.net/~cyril
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
[hidden email] -- IUT Nancy Charlemagne -- LORIA
http://SmartEiffel.loria.fr  --  The GNU Eiffel Compiler
POST: Loria, B.P. 239,54506 Vandoeuvre les Nancy Cedex, FRANCE
Voice:[phone] Mobile: [phone] Fax:[phone]

[Hendrik Boom-2]

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 09:34:21AM -0500, Helmut Brandl wrote:
> I once was a user of SmallEiffel and SmartEiffel as well. I did not like
> EiffelStudio because of its enormous footprint and its license.
>
> Unfortunately SmartEiffel seems to be inactive for more that 2 years now.
>
> In order to have a viable EiffelStudio alternative I have founded my own
> Eiffel compiler project tecomp which is pretty advanced now but has not
> yet reached the maturity Smarteiffel had previously.

There's another language I keep mentioning here, which is also an
endangered species:  Modula 3.  It seems to stay alive because one
software company, elegosoft, finds they are so productive when they use
it that it's worthwhile to them to maintain it, and to provide
publically accessible repositories to promote user-community
development.

It too is a statically type-checked, secure, garbage collected
environment.  It manages to do all this and still be efficient.  I've
always thought that smarteiffel and Modula 3 should try to collaborate.  
If nothing else, they have similar run-time issues, and should be able
to use a common implementation of common garbage-collection and
multithreading (Modula 3 has both, and manages to do it efficiently.)

Backpatching collaboration into existing code could be difficult,
though.

-- hendrik

[Paolo Redaelli]

Dominique Colnet ha scritto:

> On Tue, 2009-06-16 at 16:21 +0200, Cyril ADRIAN wrote:
>  
>> Hello,
>>    
> Hi all,
>  
>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Воронов Роман <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>         Hello! I like SmartEiffel and I don't like other
>>         implementations of Eiffel. So, tell me please what is the
>>         status of SmartEiffel project now? Is it alive or not?
>>
>> Moribund. Not exactly dead but the flame is almost extinct.
>>    
> For sure.
>  

Does it mean that we can freely continue the development elsewhere?
We are both not native English speaker so please confirm with a fuller
tense.
Thanks in advance for your attention,
    Paolo

[Phil Malin-3]

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

Howdy.

I can't speak for the SmartEiffel project itself, of course, but I can say that it's alive for me!  :-)  In fact, it's my language of choice and I use it daily and have done so since the v1.X days.

Over the years I've written my own libraries and applications and perhaps should have released a lot of them into the wild but haven't because of laziness (setting up a server, repository, etc.) and self-consciousness of the code (not to say it's bad but when I reread I think "I should add more comments here", etc.).  :-)

Things that I've written include:

• A library of data structures, more or less covering off cases which aren't catered for by the standard SE library (or weren't at the time of writing).
• A database library.  Currently I hook into Postgres and SQLite.  I've started to encapsulate raw SQL into actual classes (e.g. SELECT_QUERY, etc.), which turns out to be handy because it automatically adds quotes, escapes strings, etc., based on the database schema information.
  
• I've created a persistence framework.  Basically you create a persistent class through inheriting from a base persistent class.  It also ties in assertion aspects of Eiffel with database constraints.  Given the tedious nature of writing the classes I've created an 'Eiffelesque' specification language with a compiler that generates all the needed Eiffel classes.  It's a work in progress (mostly done and what's done works).
• A web framework.  This started off as a standard way of creating CGI/FastCGI apps.  I also created a way of creating HTML pages using a class hierarchy (e.g. DOCUMENT has an array of ELEMENTs, etc.).  I partly did this out of interest to see what it would be like in terms of usability and seems to be quite good.  One nice aspect is the ability to create custom elements and reuse them in different pages (standard OO stuff), etc.
  
• I used the above web framework and database library to create a project management tool (based on SCRUM).  In fact I'm redoing it based on updates to the web framework and the new persistent object library (the main driver being me leaving the company I wrote the tool for and I want to augment the program, hence a rewrite from scratch using updated libraries).
• Other programs not worth mentioning at this stage.  :-)
  

Anyway, I though I'd better chime in and reinforce the fact that even if SmartEiffel isn't evolving at a fast rate it's still a wonderful implementation to use.  A lot of the projects I write I take the viewpoint of the journey being as important as the destination, i.e. trying out new ideas, etc., and using an elegant language like Eiffel with a fast, straightforward implementation like SmartEiffel is a match made in heaven.  :-)

Cheers,
Phil.

Воронов Роман wrote:

Hello! I like SmartEiffel and I don't like other implementations of Eiffel. So, tell me please what is the status of SmartEiffel project now? Is it alive or not?

I would like to hope that SmartEiffel is alive!

Regards!

  

[Cyril ADRIAN]

Hi Phil,

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 3:53 AM, Phil Malin <[hidden email]> wrote:

I can't speak for the SmartEiffel project itself, of course, but I can say that it's alive for me!  :-)  In fact, it's my language of choice and I use it daily and have done so since the v1.X days.

Do you know how good it is to have that kind of message? Many, many thanks Phil :-)

Over the years I've written my own libraries and applications and perhaps should have released a lot of them into the wild but haven't because of laziness (setting up a server, repository, etc.)

If you need some help (code, repository, whatever) maybe I can help? I'd be glad to. Or maybe ewlc? (Paolo?)

and self-consciousness of the code (not to say it's bad but when I reread I think "I should add more comments here", etc.).  :-)

I think we are all equal in this regard... That's an Eiffel problem: always striving for the best ;-)

Things that I've written include:

A lot of things that sound good :-)

Anyway, I though I'd better chime in and reinforce the fact that even if SmartEiffel isn't evolving at a fast rate it's still a wonderful implementation to use.  A lot of the projects I write I take the viewpoint of the journey being as important as the destination, i.e. trying out new ideas, etc., and using an elegant language like Eiffel with a fast, straightforward implementation like SmartEiffel is a match made in heaven.  :-)

Thanks again for those warm words,

--
Cyril ADRIAN

http://www.cadrian.net/~cyril

[Hendrik Boom-2]

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 08:30:54AM +0200, Cyril ADRIAN wrote:

> Hi Phil,
>
> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 3:53 AM, Phil Malin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >  I can't speak for the SmartEiffel project itself, of course, but I can say
> > that it's alive for me!  :-)  In fact, it's my language of choice and I use
> > it daily and have done so since the v1.X days.
> >
>
> Do you know how good it is to have that kind of message? Many, many thanks
> Phil :-)
>
>  Over the years I've written my own libraries and applications and perhaps
> > should have released a lot of them into the wild but haven't because of
> > laziness (setting up a server, repository, etc.)
> >
>
> If you need some help (code, repository, whatever) maybe I can help? I'd be
> glad to. Or maybe ewlc? (Paolo?)
>
> and self-consciousness of the code (not to say it's bad but when I reread I
> > think "I should add more comments here", etc.).  :-)
> >
>
> I think we are all equal in this regard... That's an Eiffel problem: always
> striving for the best ;-)

The solution to this is to be less proprietary about your code.  Let
others improve it.  Then later, you can be proud of having started it,
rather than embarrassed about not having finished it.  Very few
useful software projects are ever finished.

Release it in a distributed revision control system.  I use monotone for
this:

First, install monotone and set up your local, possibly private,
repository.  Monotone is a Debian package, and is probably packaged
with other systems, too.  Documentation, including conprehensible tutorial, on
http://www.monotone.ca/docs/index.html.

You don't even have to set up your own server.  Ask for a project on
http://mtn-host.prjek.net -- a monotone server provided free for
free-software projects.

Then sync with it.

Then tell everyone on this list where to find your project.  Let
them improve it, so we can *all* strive for the best.

>
>  Things that I've written include:
> >
>
> A lot of things that sound good :-)
>
>  Anyway, I though I'd better chime in and reinforce the fact that even if
> > SmartEiffel isn't evolving at a fast rate

That provides some stability.

> > it's still a wonderful
> > implementation to use.  

And your libraries have the potential to make it more.

> >A lot of the projects I write I take the viewpoint
> > of the journey being as important as the destination, i.e. trying out new
> > ideas, etc., and using an elegant language like Eiffel with a fast,
> > straightforward implementation like SmartEiffel is a match made in heaven.
> > :-)
> >
>
> Thanks again for those warm words,
> --
> Cyril ADRIAN
>
> http://www.cadrian.net/~cyril

[Phil Malin-3]

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

Hi Hendrik.

I actually use darcs for my own personal use.  I'm not sure if there are project hosting sites out there which use it (I haven't looked - I'm sure google would help me out - in fact I just did and found http://patch-tag.com).

You're right about many hands making light work.  It's something I've wanted to do but never gotten around to it.  Ok, I've just decided that over the next few months or so I'll do some spring cleaning and get some of these libraries out there. :-)

Cheers,
Phil.

[hidden email] wrote:

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 08:30:54AM +0200, Cyril ADRIAN wrote:
  

Hi Phil,

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 3:53 AM, Phil Malin [hidden email] wrote:

    

 I can't speak for the SmartEiffel project itself, of course, but I can say
that it's alive for me!  :-)  In fact, it's my language of choice and I use
it daily and have done so since the v1.X days.

      

Do you know how good it is to have that kind of message? Many, many thanks
Phil :-)

 Over the years I've written my own libraries and applications and perhaps
    

should have released a lot of them into the wild but haven't because of
laziness (setting up a server, repository, etc.)

      

If you need some help (code, repository, whatever) maybe I can help? I'd be
glad to. Or maybe ewlc? (Paolo?)

and self-consciousness of the code (not to say it's bad but when I reread I
    

think "I should add more comments here", etc.).  :-)

      

I think we are all equal in this regard... That's an Eiffel problem: always
striving for the best ;-)
    

The solution to this is to be less proprietary about your code.  Let 
others improve it.  Then later, you can be proud of having started it, 
rather than embarrassed about not having finished it.  Very few 
useful software projects are ever finished.

Release it in a distributed revision control system.  I use monotone for 
this:

First, install monotone and set up your local, possibly private, 
repository.  Monotone is a Debian package, and is probably packaged 
with other systems, too.  Documentation, including conprehensible tutorial, on 
http://www.monotone.ca/docs/index.html.

You don't even have to set up your own server.  Ask for a project on 
http://mtn-host.prjek.net -- a monotone server provided free for 
free-software projects.

Then sync with it.

Then tell everyone on this list where to find your project.  Let 
them improve it, so we can *all* strive for the best.

  

 Things that I've written include:
    

A lot of things that sound good :-)

 Anyway, I though I'd better chime in and reinforce the fact that even if
    

SmartEiffel isn't evolving at a fast rate
      

That provides some stability.

  

it's still a wonderful
implementation to use.  
      

And your libraries have the potential to make it more.

  

A lot of the projects I write I take the viewpoint
of the journey being as important as the destination, i.e. trying out new
ideas, etc., and using an elegant language like Eiffel with a fast,
straightforward implementation like SmartEiffel is a match made in heaven.
:-)

      

Thanks again for those warm words,
-- 
Cyril ADRIAN

http://www.cadrian.net/~cyril
    

[Remy Schleimer]

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

Hi all,

I am following this discussion with a lot of interest. Actually, I like se a lot, and use it for my own "research" (i.e. experimenting some ideas).

When I compare se to other dev-platforms, my feeling is, Eiffel is a very good approach for building software. But then, there are not so many libraries around, on which you could build.

One example would be database access. This is something we all may need, but se does not provide this in its core libraries. Other platforms do have such libraries, and many more.

IMHO se would be more "alive" if it could provide more core libraries. 

One question to the se-team: would they accept contributions from "non-core developers" to enhance Smarteiffel's core library? 

E.g. How about inviting Phil to contribute his db-library or web framework to the library? Would Phil agree to contribute? Would the se-team agree to accept such contributions?

Obviously, before this to happen, there are quite a few questions to answer (e.g. library-ownership, release-management, coding standards, and many more).

I would welcome this approach, and certainly contribute a few of my humble experiments to such a community.

Regards, Remy

 

On 17 juin 09, at 03:53, Phil Malin wrote:

Howdy.

I can't speak for the SmartEiffel project itself, of course, but I can say that it's alive for me!  :-)  In fact, it's my language of choice and I use it daily and have done so since the v1.X days.

Over the years I've written my own libraries and applications and perhaps should have released a lot of them into the wild but haven't because of laziness (setting up a server, repository, etc.) and self-consciousness of the code (not to say it's bad but when I reread I think "I should add more comments here", etc.).  :-)

Things that I've written include:

• A library of data structures, more or less covering off cases which aren't catered for by the standard SE library (or weren't at the time of writing).
• A database library.  Currently I hook into Postgres and SQLite.  I've started to encapsulate raw SQL into actual classes (e.g. SELECT_QUERY, etc.), which turns out to be handy because it automatically adds quotes, escapes strings, etc., based on the database schema information.
  
• I've created a persistence framework.  Basically you create a persistent class through inheriting from a base persistent class.  It also ties in assertion aspects of Eiffel with database constraints.  Given the tedious nature of writing the classes I've created an 'Eiffelesque' specification language with a compiler that generates all the needed Eiffel classes.  It's a work in progress (mostly done and what's done works).
• A web framework.  This started off as a standard way of creating CGI/FastCGI apps.  I also created a way of creating HTML pages using a class hierarchy (e.g. DOCUMENT has an array of ELEMENTs, etc.).  I partly did this out of interest to see what it would be like in terms of usability and seems to be quite good.  One nice aspect is the ability to create custom elements and reuse them in different pages (standard OO stuff), etc.
  
• I used the above web framework and database library to create a project management tool (based on SCRUM).  In fact I'm redoing it based on updates to the web framework and the new persistent object library (the main driver being me leaving the company I wrote the tool for and I want to augment the program, hence a rewrite from scratch using updated libraries).
• Other programs not worth mentioning at this stage.  :-)
  

Anyway, I though I'd better chime in and reinforce the fact that even if SmartEiffel isn't evolving at a fast rate it's still a wonderful implementation to use.  A lot of the projects I write I take the viewpoint of the journey being as important as the destination, i.e. trying out new ideas, etc., and using an elegant language like Eiffel with a fast, straightforward implementation like SmartEiffel is a match made in heaven.  :-)

Cheers,
Phil.

Воронов Роман wrote:

Hello! I like SmartEiffel and I don't like other implementations of Eiffel. So, tell me please what is the status of SmartEiffel project now? Is it alive or not?

I would like to hope that SmartEiffel is alive!

Regards!

  

[Phil Malin-3]

Hi Remy.

I've got no qualms about contributing my libraries.  The only thing
regarding them is that they contain new (prototype) ideas that I've been
trying out, so if they were added to a community library I'd like to sit
down (so to speak) with others and nut out the direction of them.

I'm in the process of writing up documentation for them so in a month or
so I'd like them to be ready for public consumption.

Cheers,
Phil.


Remy Schleimer wrote:

> Hi all,
> I am following this discussion with a lot of interest. Actually, I
> like se a lot, and use it for my own "research" (i.e. experimenting
> some ideas).
> When I compare se to other dev-platforms, my feeling is, Eiffel is a
> very good approach for building software. But then, there are not so
> many libraries around, on which you could build.
> One example would be database access. This is something we all may
> need, but se does not provide this in its core libraries. Other
> platforms do have such libraries, and many more.
> IMHO se would be more "alive" if it could provide more core libraries.
> One question to the se-team: would they accept contributions from
> "non-core developers" to enhance Smarteiffel's core library?
> E.g. How about inviting Phil to contribute his db-library or web
> framework to the library? Would Phil agree to contribute? Would the
> se-team agree to accept such contributions?
> Obviously, before this to happen, there are quite a few questions to
> answer (e.g. library-ownership, release-management, coding standards,
> and many more).
> I would welcome this approach, and certainly contribute a few of my
> humble experiments to such a community.
> Regards, Remy
>  

[snip snip]

[Berend de Boer]

>>>>> "Phil" == Phil Malin <[hidden email]> writes:

    Phil> You're right about many hands making light work.

But the issue is what kind of work. If you don't agree on the
destination, you won't end up there.

SE 2.x basically broke off all ties with what is considered Eiffel.

I'm still using SE 1.x although slowly weaning from it as other
libraries have moved forward. Except for an heroic attempt by Eric
with Gobo, absolutely not a single big library was ever ported to
2.x. What we find is disjointed people who develop everything from
scratch now and then.

So I suggest if SE wants to have a chance of thriving again, it should
start with the 1.x branch and rejoin the Eiffel community.

--
Cheers,

Berend de Boer

[Remy Schleimer]

Hi all,
Today I visited the "bug & improvement database" of se, just to find  
that it contains exactly 2 items, none of which has been assigned to  
an owner, although the latest bug is almost 1 year old.
I then tried to register to the database, but the registration form  
suggests this would be for members of Inria only?
Can any one tell me if there is a better way to communicate a bug to  
the SE-team?
Thanks
Remy