Starting new churches in Melbourne

[Jason]

Gordon,

I think they call that a "duck-and-weave".

[Gordon Cheng]

Not sure quite what you mean, Jason.

What's to duck? The need for new churches in all places is apparent.

[Jason]

I'm just very perplexed why so many people are willing to plant churches within a certain radius of Sydney's or Melbourne's CBDs - usually about a 15km radius (20km at most), but so unwilling to plant wider afield (with the exception of NSW mid-north coast). And my gut feeling - not backed up by any stats, of course ;) - is that it's easier (note, not 'easy', but 'easier') to plant closer to the city in the higher educated, wealthier (and more 'liveable') areas. It's such a city-centric mentality that I get a bit cynical about the whole thing.

[Andrew Stagg]

Jason is quite right Gordon, that's a clear duck and weave!!
I know it sucks, but looks like you'll have to think of a different place in Melbourne to start your next church plant than St Jude's crypt. I know the coffee out in Officer sucks, but it's a pretty area - close to Gippsland - close to the eastern suburbs "bible belt" - it's in clear need of the Gospel - the land is cheap - and I think you'd really like it out there...

Gordon Sep 09, 2008; 11:42am wrote:

Naturally I denied it with as little pomposity as I was able to not muster, but it did get me thinking. Maybe I should put my money where my church planting mouth is and return to Melbourne, gather some friends and start a church near Melbourne Uni and RMIT (places I know and love).

[Alex M]

Jason and Andrew,

I am not sure the 'duck and weave charge' is actually fair.

It's a bit like saying someone is not fair dink about wanting to do a church plant in Zambia because they haven't seriously considered Sierra Leone. The question might be useful in revealing what is attracting a particular person to a particular location (and maybe the good, bad or irrelevant motivations behind that), but it's actually not relevant in a strictly logical sense in evaluating the merits of a particular church planting proposal.

No-one could fairly accuse Gordon (or the Chengs) of not putting in the hard yards in ministry in some difficult spots.
(And as I am *long suffering* lawyer - who apparently even ranks below bankers as regards government welfare - I can't fault anyone in ministry as being 'soft' or taking the easy/ier option).  

I can see why RMIT/Melb Uni is attractive to Gordon, having regard to his skills and experience. What's wrong with that? A while ago, St Jude's was considering the exact same proposal itself.

(PS the coffee in the St Jude's crypt (from memory International Roast Select) is probably worse than Officer, which at least has some fairly decent shopping centres nearby).

(PPS For those who asked a few posts back, we are in Darwin til January for a 6 month medical posting for Kate).

Kind regards
Alex

[Jason]

G'day Alex,

Thanks for your comments. Gordon's a bit of a lightening rod for a wider whinge on my part. And if Gordon and family have the skills and intelligence and experience to start a church plant at RMIT, they'd be more than qualified to start something in the suburbs. But the passion/attraction thing is the issue, isn't it? Lots of people are passionate about Uni ministry - I am, too. But what happens when no-one's attracted/passionate about further afield?

The comparison with Sierra Leone and Zambia isn't really that relevant since the two countries have vastly different resource levels, both in the church and wider society. The need is very, very dramatic in both countries. But if we were to throw a net over inner city Melbourne, especially the Universities, then (again without stats, just gut feel) the ministry resources per person are probably going to be sufficiently higher than in the outer suburbs to warrant attention. Ministry resources in Sierra Leone and Zambia per person - zip by comparison. Maybe a better comparison is it's like a doctor choosing to work at the Alfred or RPA or deciding instead to work somewhere like, say, Horsham (or Dandenong or Liverpool hospitals). One looks fantastic on a CV, the other ... kinda okay, I guess.

I'm not accusing - nor I hope is anyone else - Gordon and family of failing to do the hard yards in ministry. It's great that Gordon is in ministry in the first place! Praise God. It'd be great to have more people like him and his family (especially in Melbourne).

But why not consider other places in Melbourne apart from RMIT? Isn't it worth thinking and praying about? What about somewhere near Deakin Uni? That's a little further afield, and it could be Uni ministry.

[Jason]

An update of some of the Casey area's stats from someone standing for Casey Council elections: there are 4000 babies born in Casey every year! And to quote the election material (hopefully it's true), 'our city is growing rapidly and will exceed the population of Canberra over the next 10 years". Again, if true (and I've got no reason to disbelieve it) that's big!

[Andrew Stagg]

Alex, I'm not really having a go at Gordon. I'm pretty sure he's a big boy and can defend himself well. I do think Jason has a point however - why not the areas that have almost no solidly biblical church coverage?? It at least warrants thinking about.

Gordon if you're really serious about inner Melbourne and you really feel that God has called you there then go for it with all your heart. But you do you need to figure out what's happening on the ground first. At pretty much the same time your first comment was posted St Jude's actually launched a carefully thought out vision plan that encompasses your area. So if you are really serious about this area you might want to talk to them first to make sure that you don't duplicate resources on exactly the same people. It might even be that after talking to them you find that your plans and St Judes match closely and you could come onboard - who knows??

There's a huge number of people in the inner city who don't know God - they need to know God and they need to hear the Gospel. And churches like St Judes are giving it a whack. In a way these people are the lucky ones because they have opportunities if they are serious about finding out for themselves. That is not to say we shouldn't evangalise them, but it is to say that they have opportunities if God actually calls them to our churches, before a vision program reaches them. There are quite a few churches around the inner city, although many of them are dodgy, some are quite good.

Folks are right however to raise awareness of the outer suburbs and country areas. The outer suburbs have harvey-norman, dan-murhy's, McDonalds and (sometimes) Hoyts. Some of lucky ones might have a large penticostal church. Where are folks going to go if they want to find out about God - the local Kingdom Hall??  Out in country victoria it's even tougher - the local anglican church might be anglo-catholic (an anathema to most rural aussies) - but more likely its strongly liberal and a different gospel gets preached every sunday. Because I'm originally from country victoria it seems to me the church has now become totally irrelevant to peoples lives. From what I see it's been replaced by a culture of drinking and consumerism. Wouldn't it be great if we could send more workers out there too.

cheers
ANDREW

[Jereth]

Just a thought...

Perhaps when thinking about where to initiate ministry, it might be prudent to consider where the Word is most likely to bear fruit. Now of course, God is sovereign over the harvest and we are called to preach the word fruit or no fruit. But there might be some tangential biblical evidence for taking this strategic approach to maximise the fruit for the Kingdom -- i.e. when Paul turns from hard-hearted Jews to the receptive Gentiles in Acts.

Who is most receptive to the Word in Melbourne and where are they?
1. International students - clustered around each major uni (Carlton/Parkville/CBD, Bundoora, Hawthorn, Footscray, Clayton, etc.)
2. Young, lower/middle class working families with small kids - outer suburbs (Sunbury, Campbellfield, Mill Park, South Morang, Moroolbark, Ferntree Gully, Berwick, Narree Warren, Cranbourne, etc.) -- i.e. where Baptists and megachurches are having numerical success

Like the Jews, it could be said in very general terms that inner upper-middle class Melbourne have had their chance to repent and by and large have become hardened through their intellectual sophistication and wealthy comfort. So let's turn to those who are hungry.

Another point about the outer suburbs: they are the ones who will be hit hard over the next 2 decades by peak oil and climate change, because of their greater dependence on fuel to commute. Because of State Govt's inaction we're unlikely to see changes necessary to help the outer suburbs survive the coming crisis (eg. better public transport); as such we could see outer suburban Melbourne plunge into deeper and deeper relative poverty. They will be searching for hope more so than privileged inner Melbourne.

cheers
Jereth

[Phil Weickhardt (Phool)]

The harvest is plentiful the workers are few.

Gordo - you could go (or stay) anywhere and be useful!

Blessings to all

Phil in Kalgoorlie (where there are about 17 christian congregations in a town of 30 000 people).

Many rural towns in Western Australia have no minister of the gospel as a resident - huge opportunity for tentmaking. Nurses, teachers, all sorts of opportunities!

[jane churchland]

Jason wrote:

 if Gordon and family have the skills and intelligence and experience to start a church plant at RMIT, they'd be more than qualified to start something in the suburbs.

 Hmmm, this is an interesting assertion. I may be reading into this, but it feels like Jason you are saying that while there are special skills needed for studentish work, there are none for work in the suburbs, or at least only a subset of what studentish work requires.

As someone who has recently transplanted from carlton to the suburbs, it strikes me that there are lots of new things I'm going to have to learn to be the best ambassador for jesus christ in this new context. Maybe this is just about me, as I've never really lived in the suburbs proper much before (came from regional vic to uni and was at st judes for many moons before transplanting out).

[Phil Weickhardt (Phool)]

I agree with your insights Jane.

Suburban Melbourne is different from inner-city Melbourne, student ministry is different to ministry amongst young families, or even older congregations. I would even dare to say that Hawthorn is different to Forest Hill, is different to Boronia or Emerald.

Twenty to thirty years ago Melbourne had a "Bible belt" from roughly Hawthorn out to Ringwood. It was also referred to as the "Mortgage Belt" and the "Sherry Belt". There was a great deal of commonality about those suburbs and their residents, there was similar theology and motivations at say Ashburton Baptist, Syndal Baptist, St Columbs Hawthorn, Holy Trinity Doncaster, Mitcham Baptist. There was a lot of links between CMS, Scripture Union and AFES. Not all the churches were evangelical, it's just that I only moved in evangelical circles (imagine when I moved interstate and encountered liberal theology for the first time!)

Melbourne was also very radial, by that I mean that a lot of travel was between your home and the city and links followed arterial roads and railway lines. Living in Vermont I had links out to Ringwood and into Box Hill but I did not generally know people or visit shops or conduct business in Glen Waverley, Mt Waverley, or even Doncaster until I was at University.

My experience of University ministry and inner-city ministry was a focus on apologetics and argument. Many seekers and christians alike were satisified by the intellectual rigour of christianity.

My experience of the suburbs was "Christ incarnate in everyday life" if I may try to explain what I saw. Christianity made sense through a fellowship of believers from a spread of generations with limited transience in a particular area (ie. the local church). It was certainly easier to fellowship with others close to one's own "age and stage" so we were part of a young married home group.

My "home church" in Melbourne's suburbs contains a number of families that are still worshipping in the same church for 40+ years, and many that are 15+ years at one church. Having left 16 years ago it is interesting to visit the church and renew acquaintances. All those "young children" when we left are now older teenagers and young adults, some in leadership.

The paid ministers in the "bible-belt" congregations generally had some "runs on the board" and older children (say upper primary age at least) of their own. I say generally because there are some exceptions that do, or have done, a great work.

I guess a church plant is different to becoming a leader in an established worshipping community (of any denomination). So there may be differences there as well.

I remember when the Diocese of Melbourne started a church plant in the outer suburb(!) of Endeavour Hills. They started with a church (ie. people) and then thought about a building, the minister at the time had to do a lot of teaching to reinforce that the "church" refers to the people not the building.

Again I would say that the key is to listen to God's calling. I have heard it said that he equips the called.
Missionaries are called to all sorts of places: across the street, across the city, interstate, across the world. Regular contributors to this forum correspond from all sorts of places!

I am presently seeing the fruit of the mission thrust of "The West" to Africa as I am blessed in fellowship with many people coming from Africa to work in Australia, their faith is so beautiful. People with dark skins from Zimbabwe and Mozambique, people with white skins from South Africa, Namibia, Botswana. I am sure my friends would consider themselves to be "refugees" rather than "missionaries" but they are bringing the Word of God and their faith with them as they come, whatever their reason for coming.

A word of caution: Love has a greater currency than truth, the truth can be debated with our brothers and sisters in Christ after we show that we care. Church History is full of argument but: "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (John 13:35, NASB). I have friends that will never agree with infant baptism, I have friends that see no restrictions on women leading worship, I have friends that say christians should not drink.

The central truth is that Christ died for the sins of the world and anyone who wants to come to the Father can approach the throne of grace boldly through Jesus Christ, the mediator and advocate.
 

[Jason]

G'day Jane,

You're right, it is an assertion. But I have sufficient confidence in the skills and intelligence God's given Gordon and family that they will make the transition to the suburbs with ease. Sure, like anybody who's faced moving out of a culturally comfortable circumstance to unfamiliar territory, there are things to learn. But who is better suited to learn those things than someone with good capabilities at learning?

You're not reading too much into my post. There are definite skills required for student work, and some of those ways of doing things don't work in the suburbs. Likewise there are definite skills required for work in the suburbs. They are different skills, but at the most basic level, surely there are some core truths that are transferrable?

[Gordon Cheng]

Hi all,

still following this thread with interest, and I have a question to ask, but I am waiting for advice from Tim Patrick before I ask it.

[Gordon Cheng]

OK, I'm going to try to reword, on Tim Patrick's advice.

Here we go.

*If someone was wanting to plant a church close to RMIT and Melbourne University, then what arguments would Satan use to prevent that from happening?*

Tim suggested that my original question linked the advice given so far to the advice that Satan would give—if I've understood you correctly, Tim. My response is that this would be an unfortunate inference. The question  is a genuine question, and remains—hopefully undeleted this time!

Please treat this question as broad and general, but no less important despite possibly sounding a bit vaguer than the original, which I am now struggling to recall.

[Phil Weickhardt (Phool)]

Proverbs 24 (ESV)
3 By wisdom a house is built,
   and by understanding it is established;
4  by knowledge the rooms are filled
   with all precious and pleasant riches.
5 A wise man is full of strength,
   and a man of knowledge enhances his might,
6  for by wise guidance you can wage your war,
   and in abundance of counselors there is victory.
7 Wisdom is too high for a fool;
   in the gate he does not open his mouth.

Gordo, if I may, please bear with me. I am going to pick at semantics.

Gordon Cheng wrote:

*If someone was wanting to plant a church close to RMIT and Melbourne University, then what arguments would Satan use to prevent that from happening?*

Are you wanting to plant a church or called to?

I feel there is a danger of saying too much so I will pray that you and others will be able to discern the Lord's leading.

[Luke Isham]

That's very interesting and provocative question Gordon!

Satan might try to lull you into a false sense of security but then again Satan might not want you to plant in the western suburbs, or the eastern suburbs!  It's sometimes worth speculating scewtape style to keep yourself spirtually fresh but in this case I'd prefer to do a straight up and down anyalsis knowing that I've got the Kingdom rash most places in me.

evangelcial (non-anglican?) CBD plant close to RIMT and uni-Melb: (which would also be near Ridley!)
Pros:
Docklands (focused on yuppie market) St Judes focused on Estates, various specific demographic groups and areas further north and west rather then central. Vast university population including overseas students, lots of space for mutliple evo ministries, position of influence close to intelluctual areas and public transport and city centre, easier maybe to get interns and curates, you'll be able to use some of your old Melbourne connections, young men and women all fired up by driscoll/piper/carson, need more Christians in the CBD
Cons:
Docklands and St Judes already in the market so to speak, already strong AFES at uni-Melb and at RMIT as well I think, your sydney-sider status might make some people resentful, expensive to rent a space, general evo scene struggling a bit in melbourne so might not get much local support (eg recent defeat of pro-life motion in synod), need more Christians outside the CBD

there's my two bob's worth

[Alex Milner]

*If someone was wanting to plant a church close to RMIT and Melbourne University, then what arguments would Satan use to prevent that from happening?

Ok, it falls to the lawyer to set out the arguments...

But first a disclaimer: the question posed raises both a logical issue (there's an "undistributed middle" lurking in the background, Gordon) and a theological one (in what way can the devil "prevent" God in building His Church - by contrast to "opposing" God). Secondly, I reckon the devil uses 'good' arguments and 'true' statements more often than not.

Lest anyone take offense, this is firmly tongue-in-cheek.

The argument would start something like this:

What a great idea, there's a real need for more ministry there,

(1) But first we should ensure you are properly trained/retrained/vetted/dunked/commissioned/licenced/team supported/'year(/s) of discerned' etc (the church equivalent of a couple of rounds of "Hole in the Wall")

essentially whatever it takes to defer your decision by a couple of years - hopefully you'll give up

(2) But are you really "called" to "this" ministry? No, not that "initial" calling referred to in 2 Pet 1:10 - it's something much more 'special'. Have you had a Road to Damascus experience? No?

essentially move the 'issue' from the ministry idea to the person (who will always be flawed in some way, have doubts, have ups/downs in enthusiasm etc) - as everyone knows, good ministry is about perfect people garnering disciples to themselves... oh and that Jesus guy

(3) But I question 'your' motivation...

essentially impugn an adverse motivation - vitually impossible to rebut

(4) But there are an abundance of (more deserving) opportunities elsewhere, and so I question 'your' motivation...

essentially a variant of (3)

(5) But planting a church next to another good one seems a little *divisive*

essentially imply sheep stealing, even though the number of unchurched people in the area greatly outnumbers the number of people in the existing church (and extra points for using a loaded term!)

(6) But planting a church next to another good one will polarise the existing congregation over secondary issues (the coffee drinkers will desert for the new church with its new Gaggia leaving an unbalanced concentration of tea drinkers)

essentially elevate institutional church issues over the imperative to minister to non-christians - assume the worse case, and extrapolate back from there

(7) (Melbourne Anglican special) But that seems a little impolite. Have you had coffee and affirmed each of the existing ministry teams? Planting a new church looks like a criticism of the existing ministries.

essentially ensure that the new church is forced to repeat the mistakes, and copy of the style, of the existing churches - as everyone knows, ministry is hard enough without others trying to do a better job 

no doubt others can add to the list

<ducks>

[Alex Milner]

thought of a couple more...

(8) But only if you agree with the existing position on [insert secondary issue here]. This is Inner Suburbistan, we don't do [insert secondary issue here]

essentially elevate a secondary theological issue and reclassify it as an incontrovertible 'cultural issue'

(9) But what I really feel the inner city *needs* is someone with a keen academic mind with well respected tertiary degrees/Queens Honours etc (eg someone from the tribe of Benjamin, a Pharisee of Pharisees etc). Someone who can speak to the masses through the Op-ed pages of the The Age.

essentially elevate a 'nice-to-have' (or irrelevant matter) to *the* key determinant 

<ducks again>

[Phil Weickhardt (Phool)]

lol @ Alex