Starting new churches in Melbourne

[Luke Isham]

Hey Gordo,

You could become part of Discoll's church planting network!  

Leave one institution (Anglicanism) for another (Driscoll church planting network) or create your own institution (Gordo's independent church)?  Regarding Scriptural support for staying and fighting: Didn't Paul make his way to the Jerusalem Synod and let fly even when he could have been in Northern Galatia or Spain?  

Hey you should be in Melbourne for the EFAC conference!

Cheers, Luke

 

[Jereth]

Gordo,

I think I quoted Romans 15:20 before didn't I? Also, please note I don't think this is (just) a matter of prooftexting. I think there are good principled (and pragmatic) reasons why Paul didn't want to do ministry in well worked territory.

ALex,

Hey buddy -- which state are you guys currently in?

Thanks for the challenge. I guess when I use the word "satisfactory" I'm speaking in relative rather than absolute terms. Absolutely speaking we could have more gospel witness everywhere (even in some of our well established "evangelical" churches I might add...). Relatively speaking, the CBD/carlton/parkeville are pretty well serviced.

REgarding existing churches planting new congregations vs. de novo plants -- I think that goes back to what I say to Gordo above. In principle, it is ideal not to create too many un-connected and "competing" Christian ministries in the one place, because that is a poor witness to the unity of the Church. In terms of pragmatic wisdom, I think it's best not to create situations where multiple independent Chrisitan groups step on each others toes with the potential for tension and conflict that this potentially brings.

What do you think,?

Jereth

[Alex Milner]

Hi Jereth,

In Darwin in the NT - so not in a State at all (apart from a state of grace)!

The way that I've thought about this issue depends upon whether I am involved in the decision to make the churchplant or not. If I am am involved - say my parish in Darwin wanted to do a churchplant at Brunettis, Carlton (hmm italian hot chocolate...) - I'd feel comfortable raising all sorts of pragmatic or wisdom arguments (eg Brunettis is a bit small; limited parking outside; do we really want to give the idea that Gospel plus coffee culture is the way to go?; will the new church exacerbate or formalise a split on secondary issues between coffee drinkers and milo fanatics? etc).

But if I am not involved, and another faithful Christian decides to do a churchplant (say) in the crypt at St Jude's, then I don't think I can object - on the assumption that Mark 8:38-41 is a broader principle about the ministry of others in general [Ridley ordinands please interject].  

As far as Romans 15:20 is concerned, I am not sure you can apply that generally - ie wouldn't a generalisation preclude someone going to do ministry at an existing church?  

Hi Danny

Re "Happily outer north" - that's where we want you bro!

Alex

[Alex Milner]

Sorry, should be Mark 9:38-41!

[Jereth]

Hey Alex,

Thanks for your thoughts, and for drawing my attention to that Mark 9 text.

I am definitely not in favour of a Catholic style parochial system where there is only One true church and everyone must stay out of each other's turf or else. That is ridiculous and has no biblical support.

If there is a real need for an extra church in Carlton, I would not object.

My issue is that I don't think there's particularly a need. Also, I would feel a little uncomfortable about Gordo's hypothetical church because it would create 2 competing evangelical "brands" in the same small region and that might cause unhealthy tension. If, on the other hand, Gordo's church targeted a very special group (eg. Swedish overseas students) there wouldn't be so much of a problem.

Jereth

[Gordon Cheng]

Slightly off topic, God willing I am going to try to be in Melbourne for a couple of weeks from Sep 30ish. IF any of you know of houses looking for minders in the Eastern Suburbs (eg around Doncaster or Blackburn), please feel free to shoot me an e-mail. Five in our family, including 3 daughters aged 5, 7, and 9 who are well behaved but would give a piano a (gentle) workout if one was available.

I would certainly be interested to meet with anyone who thought the idea of a Melb Uni/RMIT church plant was worth looking into.

You can get onto me via the Matthias Media website, or some of you are my friends on facebook (I'm always open for more friends too!)

[Jereth]

Gordon Cheng wrote:

I would certainly be interested to meet with anyone who thought the idea of a Melb Uni/RMIT church plant was worth looking into.

Honestly mate, why don't you consider teaming up with Scots church in the city? I'm pretty sure Dr. Diacos (is he still the minister there?) and you see eye to eye theologically. I reckon you'd be far more effective working together. AFAIK there is also a pretty good alliance between RMIT CU and Scots. The RMIT senior staffworker, last I checked, is pretty darn solid.

Jereth

[Gordon Cheng]

I am a great fan of the Victorian Presbyterians in general and John 'the Dark Horse' Diacos in particular. He would, after the Lord Jesus, be top of my list of buddies to speak to about this project. Which is funny, for all sorts of reasons that I needn't go into in this place.

[Hamish Blair]

Hi Gordo

In investigating this opportunity, I would encourage you to ask some questions around what ministry is currently happening in this neck of the woods, what plans do the various churches have and what strategies are currently being employed.

For example the cross-cultures initiative lead by Dave Walter is going great guns.  The tone of your original question suggested to me (and perhaps to others) that there might not be much happening - far from the case.

But - I suspect the surface is only being scratched.

Cheers
Hamish

PS - Alex: have you moved from Bondi to Darwin?

[Gordon Cheng]

Hamish, Dave and I are friends from way back and I get his prayer letter and pray through it. But I think people need to hear your comment:

But - I suspect the surface is only being scratched.

This is exactly the case. Maybe if Mark Driscoll had said it, the level of defensiveness about this would be lower.

20 more St Jude's/Scots/Lygon St and Swanston St COC/non-denominational ministries/ could be planted in this area and it would still be pioneering, ground-breaking work, essentially invisible to the non-christian eye.

[Hamish Blair]

Gordo

Agree - so how are you going to build on the work they are already doing - I think that is your question.

Cheers
Hamish

[Hamish Blair]

Gordo

Agree - so how are you going to build on the work they are already doing - I think that is your question.

Cheers
Hamish

[Gordon Cheng]

Hamish, the general answer to what you ask is by preaching the Word of God in Melbourne and praying. Philippians tells me that giving money would also be an act of partnership, and I have supported some of the work financially in the past, and God willing will do so again.

The specific answer is one known to God but not me.

[Gordon Cheng]

Luke Isham wrote:

Leave one institution (Anglicanism) for another (Driscoll church planting network) or create your own institution (Gordo's independent church)?  Regarding Scriptural support for staying and fighting: Didn't Paul make his way to the Jerusalem Synod and let fly even when he could have been in Northern Galatia or Spain?  


 

Luke, this is a somewhat cheeky observation. How are you going at Ridley?

[Luke Isham]

It was, I'm well, I try to stay controversial by being orthodox!

(Slightly tounge in cheek! Note to all readers (including the Archbishop of Melbourne, Mark Hood and Fred from Coburg: Ridley was and is fantastic, some of the best years of my short life so far! May God bless Ridley, the institution. (Phew, what a disclaimer!)  

If Melbourne doesn't work out you can come and church plant in Tassie!

[Gordon Cheng]

Gordon Cheng wrote:

Slightly off topic, God willing I am going to try to be in Melbourne for a couple of weeks from Sep 30ish.

I'm coming down! With the family.

Family takes priority, because it's a holiday, but if anyone is interested in catching up please shoot me an e-mail via the Matthias Media website and I will try to organize something. If it can't be organized for this time I will put you onto a list of 'people I would love to see sometime' and we will see what happens, God willing.

[Gordon Cheng]

Hi all,

So I got down to Melbourne (see previous post) and am glad I got to meet some of you, and sorry I missed others (apologies Wei-han!).

I'm continuing to pray about the possibilities of planting a church in Melbourne, and would appreciate your prayers and wisdom about this. It seems to me that Melbourne needs not just one but 50 Bible believing churches planted, and that is just in the next 10 years.

Anyway, I am continuing conversations and would love to keep hearing prayerfully considered opinions.

[Jason]

Gordon,

I think starting new churches in Melbourne is a BRILLIANT idea. There's a new suburb near us - Officer - in the biggest (or second biggest?) growth corridor in Australia. Several thousands of people are due to move into the area in the next few years and the Diocese has no money to employ church planters.

It would be great to have someone want to do a church plant in the area.

My fear is, no-one wants to do it, because boutique ministries amongst the inner city, tertiary educated, upwardly mobile young students or workers are easier to fund and plant. And, from what I read on the Sydney Anglican Website, nothing's different from Mission Minded Sydney folk either - no-one's willing to go out West (see November's Southern Cross - "Driscoll's 300 Give West Sydney a Miss").

[Jason]

Just checked the stats, Beaconsfield-Officer-Pakenham region has a projected population upwards of 60 000 people by 2021 (currently about 33 000; you'll have to navigate the individual suburbs, but see http://www.id.com.au/cardinia/forecastid/default.asp?id=213&gid=10&pg=8). If we look at the current stats for Narre Warren-Berwick area, it has a population of above 90 000 people already (see http://www.casey.vic.gov.au/populationprojections/). That sure beats the 30 000 for RMIT.

[Gordon Cheng]

Sounds good Jason.

I am not sure in general terms why it has to be either/or. It seems to me that there is room for churches in the inner city and out west, whether Sydney or Melbourne, and I hope that people will be considering both possibilities and others as well.