Starting new churches in Melbourne

[Gordon Cheng]

Hi everybody,

The other day my wife suggest I was getting soft, flabby and pompous sitting around the offices of Matthias Media and, let's be honest here, the home office with the computer and the piano, sending out pious pronouncements on how people ought to be running their lives and ministries.

Naturally I denied it with as little pomposity as I was able to not muster, but it did get me thinking. Maybe I should put my money where my church planting mouth is and return to Melbourne, gather some friends and start a church near Melbourne Uni and RMIT (places I know and love).

Any thoughts about this? Obviously it would be reformed, evangelical and complementarian if it were to go ahead, and the idea would be to start a church and do what I could to encourage others to do likewise. The basic idea would be to do regularly systematic Bible teaching, support small groups in similar ministry, and get involved in evangelism. I figure I would have just under 20 years to put into it, and I would love to do it in co-operation with whatever friends I could find. If it happened. And as I've only just been thinking about it for the best part of seven days, there are no guarantees about that whatsoever.

Anyway, your prayers would be appreciated, but I would like to hear other thoughts too.

[Gordon Cheng]

Oh, and by the way, I had the most fabulous photo of me and I used to be a registered user, and now there is just a spooky grey avatar. What gives? Can anyone help?

[edit: Ah! problem fixed. Great photo of me, I think you'll agree. ]

[Jereth]

Gordo,

If you get an Anglican license, the blessing of the Eastern region bishop, and start up a reformed, complementarian, evangelism-focussed Anglican church in the mid-outer eastern suburbs of Melbourne (i.e. somewhere east of Blackburn) -- I'm in.

Jereth

[Gordon Cheng]

It'd be fun to have you in a church Jereth, but why the other bits and pieces? They seem unnecessary.

[Gordon Cheng]

The discussion board is doing interesting things - it's Phool - sorry.

Hi Gordo,

Why Melbourne? There are plenty of places that need church plants! As far as I see it Melbourne is well served, even if there are some disputes over certain issues.

Let me encourage you to pray for the Lord's leading about going places that you don't know, or staying where you are, or going to Melbourne.

I am not saying this to put you off because I personally appreciated ministry based around Melbourne Uni and RMIT in the 1980s [that will have people thinking]. I am sure that good things can be done and that you can be part of it but I am concerned that there are established places with vacancies in other capital cities and country towns. There are many places that need good reformed teaching and the word preached. There is also the need for evangelism and church planting.

I like the model you are proposing - just be careful with the "20 years" thing, we never know. There are many good preachers that should never and do never retire, there are others who don't reach retirement "age".

I will also pray

[Jereth]

Gordo,

You have Anglican orders don't you? So why not use them. Anglicanism (as does presbyterianism) has a reformed confession of faith to fall back on, and other good stuff like the BCP. And let's face it, things aren't THAT bad in Melbourne -- we have evangelical strongholds at Ridley and other places.

OTOH if you start an independent church, the danger is that if God gives you an early retirement, the next guy could lead things totally off the rails and there will be nothing to appeal to. We've seen this happen at Baptist churches -- 2 decades of solid Bible ministry can be smashed overnight by some clown with the "latest ideas".

There is also a younger generation within Melbourne Anglicanism who are very theologically conservative, like you and I, and it is worth riding this wave I think. Heck, we've now got ordained people coming out and confessing on a public online forum that they have a man-crush on Mark Driscoll (BTW, none of you can have him -- he's MINE!!! ALL MINE!!)

Who knows what God may do?

Jereth

[Gordon Cheng]

[The real Gordon Cheng—not some Phoolish imitation! ;-) ]

[quote]You have Anglican orders don't you? So why not use them.[/quote]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'using' my Anglican orders. But if I came down to Melbourne as a Melbourne Anglican, I would in good conscience have to speak out against the idea of female bishops on the floor of synod. And I know this is going to come as a surprise, but I have no stomach for buying into fights I'm not involved in, particularly when it is crystal clear that no Anglican evangelical support would be forthcoming.

(Incidentally, this is why you can confidently expect that the supply of conservative evangelicals offering for Melbourne Anglican ministry will dry up almost completely in the next five years. Too much likely pain for too little perceived gain)

I would seriously consider coming down as a Sydney Anglican and planting a church that recognized Peter Jensen as archbishop, so that would be a way of 'using my orders', if I've understood you correctly. But I've had no indication whatsoever that Peter would support such a move, and it is one of those things that it is a bit difficult to anticipate whether the benefits would outweigh the disadvantage. Certainly there would be good publicity value, but there would probably be other possibly unanticipated inherent difficulties.

So on balance, I am not sure the Anglican way is the way to go. How much street cred does Anglicanism have amongst the average urban Melbourne pagan anyway? Not a lot I would have thought.

[Gordon Cheng]

Phool said

I like the model you are proposing - just be careful with the "20 years" thing, we never know. There are many good preachers that should never and do never retire, there are others who don't reach retirement "age".

Yes, thank you for picking up on that, Phool. You are just proving my wife's point that I am becoming pompous! God could take me out of the picture today, or he could return, or anything could happen. That is part of the sense of continual urgency I feel, and I think there is biblical basis for such urgency too.

[Hamish Blair]

Hi Gordo

Uni ministry is certainly fertile ground, as evidenced by a number of ministries operating in that neck of the woods.  Incrementally, given the efforts currently focussed on that area, I am not convinced this would be the best area for you to expend your efforts on.

Better to head to an area underserviced - see posts elsewhere by Guy Mason who has taken church to the Docklands.  Or maybe the western suburbs where perhaps the lattés aren't as great, but the worker to harvest ratio seems low.

And as for the Anglican aspects, I suppose this is a Anglican themed website; I understand where you are coming from re: women bishops, however I think even Peter Jensen (post-GAFCON) acknowledged that this is a (nonetheless important) second order issue - I take it there will be ordained women in heaven and purple shirted blokes in hell.

[Jereth]

Hi Gordo,

I would echo what Hamish said about going where there's need (cf. Rom 15:20). I think the city and uni students are already well covered by St. Judes and Scots. The outer suburbs on the other hand are areas of greater need.

On the matter of "no evangelical support forthcoming", why don't we wait and see what actually happens rather than pre-judge the issue. Female bishops HAVE been spoken against at Synod, so I'm told, and no doubt will be again. (yes, by evangelicals) Also, maybe just because everyone keeps their heads down at Synod doesn't mean they're conforming.

Re street cred, Anglicanism doesn't have much that's true but neither does any other denomination or church. It makes little difference.

How serious are you about all this anyway?

cheers mate
Jereth

[Gordon Cheng]

Hey Jereth,

I'm serious enough to ask people to pray about it.

I think the city and uni students are already well covered by St. Judes and Scots.

I think you forgot a couple of other churches that are also doing some terrific things. But now it's my turn to ask if you're serious. According to Wikipedia, Melbourne Uni has about 30000 students and RMIT has about the same. How many of them attend the two churches that you mention? In what sense are the ones who don't attend any less needy than people in the outer suburbs?

Female bishops HAVE been spoken against at Synod, so I'm told, and no doubt will be again.

There was one speech by a layman who is a mutual friend of ours. That friend assures me that he was the only one.

[Steve Weickhardt]

Hi Gordo,

I must say I'm a little disappointed in your assumptions and statements.

Of course Scots and St Judes aren't the only churches looking after the Melbourne Unit and RMIT "60,000", of which many would be part time workers/students, a huge part would be overseas students and then there are the regulars. Your quoting of statistics is unhelpful and very black & white.
There are heaps of very active and strong evangelical Chinese Churches throughout Melbourne that look after many many of these students. Other students worship at large Eastern churches because they live out there and commute into study. And there are several Pentecostal churches that look after students (whether I disagree with their methods or not).
And then there are those who have nothing to do with Christianity - and they are the ones we desperately want to reach. AFES/CU work hard on these campuses (as you well know) and can testify to the difficulty of working with the student who is comfortable (rood over head, food in tummy - who needs God?) yet believes they deserve to get into heaven "cos they are a good person". This is the essence of another thread by Tim on the evangelistic difficutlies in this day and age.

There are nowhere near the same resources for evangelism and discipleship in the West (where the latte's aren't as good and the harvest is huge :) ) as there are on Uni campuses or even in the East and Inner City. It's like church planting in Castle Hill...

Do the hard yards. Take up the Cross and sacrifice some comfort for some hard Gospel missionary work in the areas that too often get neglected - there are so many people desperate for the truth in the West. And they don't have a full tummy, and they are about to lose their homes, they are scared and they don't know who to turn to.
We have the answer.

And I believe your statements about the drying up of conservative evangelical ordinands in the next five years is a misunderstanding of your perception of the Melbourne Diocese. Yes, Complementarians may not offer, and I applaud their integrity in staying true to their convictions.
But I believe that more will come forward, because the Lord is calling them, and they will respond: "Here I am , Lord". And they will go.

The test of true prophecy is the outcome. I guess we will know in 2013.

Steve

[Gordon Cheng]

Do the hard yards.

Hmm...so I'm thinking your view of ministry on campus is somewhat different to mine. My first 10 years at Melbourne Uni and RMIT did have a few difficult yards to it (and many blessings as well), and my observation of other friends is that they also have experienced some of those difficulties and more of their own. There's a bit of mythology about what 'hard' ministry is—the sort of mythology that means missionaries to Paris (just to take one example) can end up on the receiving end of some rather unwise comments.

[Alex Milner]

Hi Steve,

I used to live in Seddon and agree with your comment that: "There are nowhere near the same resources for evangelism and discipleship in the West (where the latte's aren't as good and the harvest is huge :)" (although I can attest that the coffee ain't bad at all!).

But what I found really interesting was that the opportunities for ministry were huge - there were large immigrant populations (eg Sudan, Vietnam etc) as well as quite a strong sense of community that made meeting and engaging with people much easier. For example, you would talk to your neighbours, there were community events, and there were people who were very social and community minded - in quite a different way to living in the inner north or east.

In short, a great place to plant churches or reinvigorate existing ones.

Hi Gordo,

You're welcome to come to Melbourne and (Godwilling) plant a church. There are plenty of opportunities (*just remember it'll be cross cultural ministry wherever you go!).

Alex

[Jereth]

Gordon Cheng wrote:

Hmm...so I'm thinking your view of ministry on campus is somewhat different to mine. My first 10 years at Melbourne Uni and RMIT did have a few difficult yards to it (and many blessings as well), and my observation of other friends is that they also have experienced some of those difficulties and more of their own. There's a bit of mythology about what 'hard' ministry is—the sort of mythology that means missionaries to Paris (just to take one example) can end up on the receiving end of some rather unwise comments.

I absolutely agree with you Gordo that we can't make assumptions about what is "easy" and "hard" ministry. However, I would have to agree with Steve W (and the others) -- the issue is not so much easy vs. hard, as presence vs. non-presence. There is already a satisfactory evangelistic presence in the CBD and Parkville/Carlton. We could add Swanston St Church of Christ (or whatever its new name is) and Lygon St. Chapel, and OCF Melbourne Uni, to the aforementioned Judes and Scots.

I think it's better to support these entities that are already there, than to start up brand new enterprises.

Jereth

[Gordon Cheng]

Good words, Alex.

I think it's better to support these entities that are already there, than to start up brand new enterprises.

Got a Bible verse for me Jereth?

Or are you arguing pragmatics, eg. 'Don't start another vegetarian restaurant, just knock on the door at Shakahari and tell them you and your team are there to help broaden their menu.' ;-)

[Alex Milner]

Hi Jereth,

I'd take issue with this comment:

"the issue is not so much easy vs. hard, as presence vs. non-presence. There is already a satisfactory evangelistic presence in the CBD and Parkville/Carlton."

In what sense is it satisfactory and how are you assessing that? If it's ok - as I'm sure you'd agree - for the existing churches in the CBD and Parkville/Carlton areas to be looking to plant new congregations (which I assume they are), what's wrong with churchplanters doing the same?

Alex

[who moved the stone]

Good point raised Alex. I am saddened by the likes of Gordon who radiate an air of arrogance of having the answers for Anglicanism in Melbourne. None of us are the answer. We are messengers. Christ is the answer. When we get off our backsides, stop blowing our own trumpets, listen to God's call- then and only then will we begin to make a difference.

Personally, I don't think I would want to be involved in a church overseen by a number of people who post on this site because of their attitudes toward the church and the current structures in place. If I think that, maybe other readers are in the same boat

[Andrew Stagg]

who moved the stone wrote:

Personally, I don't think I would want to be involved in a church overseen by a number of people who post on this site because of their attitudes toward the church and the current structures in place. If I think that, maybe other readers are in the same boat

Do you have a name "who moved the stone"??? Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but if you are going to attack others here with your subjective 'opinion', and hide behind a alias I don't see why anyone here should take you seriously.

That said I'd probably agree with most folks here that planting a unit church in carlton seems a bit odd, since St Judes is aready in that area and they are actively pursuing this ministry. But there are other areas in melbourne (and some of these areas have churches) that could do with a church plant or two and I'd not stand against that.

[Danny Saunders]

Reading this thread you'd think the only places to plant a church or do ministry in Melbourne are east or west, what about north or south?

Happily outer north,

Danny.