Re: The new Plone 4.0, was Re: Plone 3.5

[Carsten Senger-3]

Hanno Schlichting schrieb:

> Hi.
>
> To summarize the feedback from the European time zone, I think that the
> proposal in general meets the favor of everyone.
>
> The controversial issue is the exact version number to use for the
> release. There seems to be broad support for freeing the current Plone
> trunk from a version designator and release a 4.0 release with the
> envisioned scope of this proposal instead.
>
> If I do not get a strong signal or message otherwise, consider this
> proposal changed in this regard.

Also +1 for a Plone 4 release.

..Carsten


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The NEW KODAK i700 Series Scanners deliver under ANY circumstances! Your
production scanning environment may not be a perfect world - but thanks to
Kodak, there's a perfect scanner to get the job done! With the NEW KODAK i700
Series Scanner you'll get full speed at 300 dpi even with all image
processing features enabled. http://p.sf.net/sfu/kodak-com
_______________________________________________
Plone-docs mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs

[Ross Patterson-2]

Lennart Regebro <[hidden email]>
writes:

> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 22:05, Ross Patterson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Sorry if I'm resurrecting an already fairly resolved debate.  None of
>> the concerns I raise here are enough to vote -1 one calling it
>> 4.0.  But if enough people feel as I do here, maybe we should discuss
>> a little further.  What about plone 3.9?
>
> 3.0.x was very buggy, and I think that has been somewhat saved by the
> upgrades to 3.1 and 3.2 being so painless. I think it would be, for
> that reason, a big mistake to introduce bigger changes in 3.X unless
> we can make sure the upgrade is quite painless and the changes are
> *very* stable.

Yeah, I guess trying to have a release line that can grow is trying to
have it both ways.  I'm very concerned about the expectations we've been
developing about Plone 4 and the impact that will have on perceptions
when we say, "Yeah, that's plone 5 now" or worse yet the even less
confidence inducing "Yeah, that's plone trunk now."  But I guess the
right response to that issue is to be more disciplined in our messaging
in the future and *not* talk about release numbers before the release
process has had a chance to weigh in.  IOW, any perceptual/expectation
problems we have from this may be our just desserts.  :)

+1 to calling it 4.0.  +1 to constraining ourselves to not include
additional disruptive changes in the newly established 4.0 line and thus
to only include them in subsequent major versions.  +100 to not talking
about version 5 until the 5 FWT has actually done enough of it's process
to have some formal establishment of expectations.

Then I'll just have to buck up and tell people that a better skinning
story will *not* being Plone 4 afterall and that I can't tell them it
will be in Plone 5 and that somehow they shouldn't be discouraged by
that.  :(

Ross


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The NEW KODAK i700 Series Scanners deliver under ANY circumstances! Your
production scanning environment may not be a perfect world - but thanks to
Kodak, there's a perfect scanner to get the job done! With the NEW KODAK i700
Series Scanner you'll get full speed at 300 dpi even with all image
processing features enabled. http://p.sf.net/sfu/kodak-com
_______________________________________________
Plone-docs mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs

[Steve McMahon]

My only concern about calling Hanno's incremental change list 4.0 is
that we don't suffer from big-number expectation syndrome.

If we start thinking that 4.0 "has to be big enough" to justify the
numbering jump, and start expanding too much on the "yes" list, we
won't get this out in 2009. And, it won't serve the purpose of
delivering enough new stuff to keep folks excited while waiting for
the big UI items.

So, a couple of questions for us all:

1) If we call it Plone 4.0, can we restrict ourselves to a modest list
of improvements that will actually get coded this summer and tested
this fall?

2) If we call it Plone 4.0, can we resist ourselves to changes that
will not break existing theme products or well-constructed Plone 3 add
ons?

If we can agree to that and task Eric with enforcing it, I'm all for
calling "it" 4.0. In any case, Hanno's and collaborators have set us
on a great course.

Steve



On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Ross Patterson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Lennart Regebro <[hidden email]>
> writes:
>
>> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 22:05, Ross Patterson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Sorry if I'm resurrecting an already fairly resolved debate.  None of
>>> the concerns I raise here are enough to vote -1 one calling it
>>> 4.0.  But if enough people feel as I do here, maybe we should discuss
>>> a little further.  What about plone 3.9?
>>
>> 3.0.x was very buggy, and I think that has been somewhat saved by the
>> upgrades to 3.1 and 3.2 being so painless. I think it would be, for
>> that reason, a big mistake to introduce bigger changes in 3.X unless
>> we can make sure the upgrade is quite painless and the changes are
>> *very* stable.
>
> Yeah, I guess trying to have a release line that can grow is trying to
> have it both ways.  I'm very concerned about the expectations we've been
> developing about Plone 4 and the impact that will have on perceptions
> when we say, "Yeah, that's plone 5 now" or worse yet the even less
> confidence inducing "Yeah, that's plone trunk now."  But I guess the
> right response to that issue is to be more disciplined in our messaging
> in the future and *not* talk about release numbers before the release
> process has had a chance to weigh in.  IOW, any perceptual/expectation
> problems we have from this may be our just desserts.  :)
>
> +1 to calling it 4.0.  +1 to constraining ourselves to not include
> additional disruptive changes in the newly established 4.0 line and thus
> to only include them in subsequent major versions.  +100 to not talking
> about version 5 until the 5 FWT has actually done enough of it's process
> to have some formal establishment of expectations.
>
> Then I'll just have to buck up and tell people that a better skinning
> story will *not* being Plone 4 afterall and that I can't tell them it
> will be in Plone 5 and that somehow they shouldn't be discouraged by
> that.  :(
>
> Ross
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The NEW KODAK i700 Series Scanners deliver under ANY circumstances! Your
> production scanning environment may not be a perfect world - but thanks to
> Kodak, there's a perfect scanner to get the job done! With the NEW KODAK i700
> Series Scanner you'll get full speed at 300 dpi even with all image
> processing features enabled. http://p.sf.net/sfu/kodak-com
> _______________________________________________
> Plone-developers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
>

--

Steve McMahon
Reid-McMahon, LLC
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The NEW KODAK i700 Series Scanners deliver under ANY circumstances! Your
production scanning environment may not be a perfect world - but thanks to
Kodak, there's a perfect scanner to get the job done! With the NEW KODAK i700
Series Scanner you'll get full speed at 300 dpi even with all image
processing features enabled. http://p.sf.net/sfu/kodak-com
_______________________________________________
Plone-docs mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs

[Hanno Schlichting-3]

Steve McMahon wrote:

> 1) If we call it Plone 4.0, can we restrict ourselves to a modest list
> of improvements that will actually get coded this summer and tested
> this fall?
>
> 2) If we call it Plone 4.0, can we resist ourselves to changes that
> will not break existing theme products or well-constructed Plone 3 add
> ons?
>
> If we can agree to that and task Eric with enforcing it, I'm all for
> calling "it" 4.0. In any case, Hanno's and collaborators have set us
> on a great course.

I'd suggest we approach the new 4.0 as a time based on not feature based
release. We can set tight deadlines (be flexible in the scope of days)
and deliver whatever is ready. To ensure reasonable backwards
compatibility we have an established framework team process I'd trust to
take care of this concern.

The feaure list I put up was to frame a potential scope and get a common
understanding about it. The yes/no categorizations and what to include
all depend on actual champions to tackle these and the framework team to
find them ready and worthy for inclusion. I think we should approach
this release without any single item being a blocker for it.

Hanno


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The NEW KODAK i700 Series Scanners deliver under ANY circumstances! Your
production scanning environment may not be a perfect world - but thanks to
Kodak, there's a perfect scanner to get the job done! With the NEW KODAK i700
Series Scanner you'll get full speed at 300 dpi even with all image
processing features enabled. http://p.sf.net/sfu/kodak-com
_______________________________________________
Plone-docs mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs

[Ricardo Alves-2]

Steve McMahon wrote:
> My only concern about calling Hanno's incremental change list 4.0 is
> that we don't suffer from big-number expectation syndrome.

This is the biggest risk I guess, a major release with just a minor set
of visible (UI) improvements, will bring bad publicity.

>
> If we start thinking that 4.0 "has to be big enough" to justify the
> numbering jump, and start expanding too much on the "yes" list, we
> won't get this out in 2009. And, it won't serve the purpose of
> delivering enough new stuff to keep folks excited while waiting for
> the big UI items.
>
> So, a couple of questions for us all:
>
> 1) If we call it Plone 4.0, can we restrict ourselves to a modest list
> of improvements that will actually get coded this summer and tested
> this fall?
>
> 2) If we call it Plone 4.0, can we resist ourselves to changes that
> will not break existing theme products or well-constructed Plone 3 add
> ons?

Isn't that already the promise of the 3.x series? I mean, to be keep
backward compatibility with Plone 3.0 addons? I still think that some of
these improvements should be included in one or more 3.x releases.



Ricardo

> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Ross Patterson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Lennart Regebro <[hidden email]>
>> writes:
>>
>>> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 22:05, Ross Patterson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Sorry if I'm resurrecting an already fairly resolved debate.  None of
>>>> the concerns I raise here are enough to vote -1 one calling it
>>>> 4.0.  But if enough people feel as I do here, maybe we should discuss
>>>> a little further.  What about plone 3.9?
>>> 3.0.x was very buggy, and I think that has been somewhat saved by the
>>> upgrades to 3.1 and 3.2 being so painless. I think it would be, for
>>> that reason, a big mistake to introduce bigger changes in 3.X unless
>>> we can make sure the upgrade is quite painless and the changes are
>>> *very* stable.
>> Yeah, I guess trying to have a release line that can grow is trying to
>> have it both ways.  I'm very concerned about the expectations we've been
>> developing about Plone 4 and the impact that will have on perceptions
>> when we say, "Yeah, that's plone 5 now" or worse yet the even less
>> confidence inducing "Yeah, that's plone trunk now."  But I guess the
>> right response to that issue is to be more disciplined in our messaging
>> in the future and *not* talk about release numbers before the release
>> process has had a chance to weigh in.  IOW, any perceptual/expectation
>> problems we have from this may be our just desserts.  :)
>>
>> +1 to calling it 4.0.  +1 to constraining ourselves to not include
>> additional disruptive changes in the newly established 4.0 line and thus
>> to only include them in subsequent major versions.  +100 to not talking
>> about version 5 until the 5 FWT has actually done enough of it's process
>> to have some formal establishment of expectations.
>>
>> Then I'll just have to buck up and tell people that a better skinning
>> story will *not* being Plone 4 afterall and that I can't tell them it
>> will be in Plone 5 and that somehow they shouldn't be discouraged by
>> that.  :(
>>
>> Ross
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The NEW KODAK i700 Series Scanners deliver under ANY circumstances! Your
>> production scanning environment may not be a perfect world - but thanks to
>> Kodak, there's a perfect scanner to get the job done! With the NEW KODAK i700
>> Series Scanner you'll get full speed at 300 dpi even with all image
>> processing features enabled. http://p.sf.net/sfu/kodak-com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Plone-developers mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
>>
>
>
>

--
Ricardo Alves <[hidden email]>
Eurotux <http://www.eurotux.com>


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The NEW KODAK i700 Series Scanners deliver under ANY circumstances! Your
production scanning environment may not be a perfect world - but thanks to
Kodak, there's a perfect scanner to get the job done! With the NEW KODAK i700
Series Scanner you'll get full speed at 300 dpi even with all image
processing features enabled. http://p.sf.net/sfu/kodak-com
_______________________________________________
Plone-docs mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs

[Alexander Limi]

On Tue, 05 May 2009 15:56:36 -0700, Ricardo Alves  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Steve McMahon wrote:
>> My only concern about calling Hanno's incremental change list 4.0 is
>> that we don't suffer from big-number expectation syndrome.
>
> This is the biggest risk I guess, a major release with just a minor set  
> of visible (UI) improvements, will bring bad publicity.

I agree — this is the biggest risk in terms of calling it 4.0 instead of  
3.5. The consensus to call the 2009 release 4.0 makes sense to me — so +1  
on that decision.

One way to mitigate this — and make Plone seem a bit more modern along the  
way — could be to apply the new typography/theme that I'm currently  
applying to trunk. This is essentially the typography from the plone.org  
redesign along with a color-neutral design for the navigation and other UI  
elements. The goal is to make something that you can put the company logo  
on, and it looks relatively decent, no matter what your company colors are.

This would make 4.0 seem "fresh" out of the box, make it look like an  
application from 2009, and let us ship with considerably more  
efficient/smaller CSS files.

The risk would be that we need to do some IE6 testing on it, but that  
might not be a bad thing, since we know much more about IE6 workarounds at  
this point than we did when the original CSS was written.

--
Alexander Limi · http://limi.net


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The NEW KODAK i700 Series Scanners deliver under ANY circumstances! Your
production scanning environment may not be a perfect world - but thanks to
Kodak, there's a perfect scanner to get the job done! With the NEW KODAK i700
Series Scanner you'll get full speed at 300 dpi even with all image
processing features enabled. http://p.sf.net/sfu/kodak-com
_______________________________________________
Plone-docs mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs

[Alexander Limi]

On Sat, 09 May 2009 05:09:07 -0700, Martin Aspeli  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'd support this, *if* it follows the usual PLIP process and we actively  
> encourage outside review from the get-go. That process may mean the  
> theme change gets a thumbs-down.

Of course.

> We'd also need to find a way to not break all existing themes.

It will "break" (ie. slightly change) themes that reuse parts of the  
original Plone CSS as part of their theme. Luckily, the fix is easy: make  
a copy of the old CSS in your product.

Few themes do this anymore though — it's mostly for the editing/authoring  
bits, which would still work (although they will change slightly too).  
Again, very easy to copy the old CSS into your theme if you want to keep  
the old style.

It's a x.0 release, so slight breakage like this shouldn't be a big issue.

> A small visual refresh would be welcome, though. Plone is looking a bit  
> last millenium. :-/

Yup.

--
Alexander Limi · http://limi.net


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The NEW KODAK i700 Series Scanners deliver under ANY circumstances! Your
production scanning environment may not be a perfect world - but thanks to
Kodak, there's a perfect scanner to get the job done! With the NEW KODAK i700
Series Scanner you'll get full speed at 300 dpi even with all image
processing features enabled. http://p.sf.net/sfu/kodak-com
_______________________________________________
Plone-docs mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs

[Alexander Limi]

On Sun, 10 May 2009 23:36:41 -0700, Raphael Ritz  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Or, even easier: use our underlying technologies
> theming capabilities and simply ship with two themes. ;-)

Good point. :)

> Make the new one the default for new sites but leave
> existing ones alone.

Exactly. Then we can remove it in Plone 5.

--
Alexander Limi · http://limi.net


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The NEW KODAK i700 Series Scanners deliver under ANY circumstances! Your
production scanning environment may not be a perfect world - but thanks to
Kodak, there's a perfect scanner to get the job done! With the NEW KODAK i700
Series Scanner you'll get full speed at 300 dpi even with all image
processing features enabled. http://p.sf.net/sfu/kodak-com
_______________________________________________
Plone-docs mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs

[Ricardo Alves-2]

Alexander Limi wrote:

> On Tue, 05 May 2009 15:56:36 -0700, Ricardo Alves <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Steve McMahon wrote:
>>> My only concern about calling Hanno's incremental change list 4.0 is
>>> that we don't suffer from big-number expectation syndrome.
>>
>> This is the biggest risk I guess, a major release with just a minor
>> set of visible (UI) improvements, will bring bad publicity.
>
> I agree — this is the biggest risk in terms of calling it 4.0 instead
> of 3.5. The consensus to call the 2009 release 4.0 makes sense to me —
> so +1 on that decision.
>
> One way to mitigate this — and make Plone seem a bit more modern along
> the way — could be to apply the new typography/theme that I'm
> currently applying to trunk. This is essentially the typography from
> the plone.org redesign along with a color-neutral design for the
> navigation and other UI elements. The goal is to make something that
> you can put the company logo on, and it looks relatively decent, no
> matter what your company colors are.
>

+1. A refreshed visual theme plus several new features, like blob
support or commenting improvements, have the potential to make 4.0 an
appealing release.


Ricardo

--
Ricardo Alves <[hidden email]>
Eurotux <http://www.eurotux.com>


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The NEW KODAK i700 Series Scanners deliver under ANY circumstances! Your
production scanning environment may not be a perfect world - but thanks to
Kodak, there's a perfect scanner to get the job done! With the NEW KODAK i700
Series Scanner you'll get full speed at 300 dpi even with all image
processing features enabled. http://p.sf.net/sfu/kodak-com
_______________________________________________
Plone-docs mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs

[Carsten Senger-3]

Alexander Limi schrieb:

> On Sun, 10 May 2009 23:36:41 -0700, Raphael Ritz <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Or, even easier: use our underlying technologies
>> theming capabilities and simply ship with two themes. ;-)
>
> Good point. :)
>
>> Make the new one the default for new sites but leave
>> existing ones alone.
>
> Exactly. Then we can remove it in Plone 5.

We shoul take the opportunity and switch to a tableless layout if that's
possible within the time frame. Maybe we can also strip markup to make
the (new) default theme a slimmer.


..Carsten

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The NEW KODAK i700 Series Scanners deliver under ANY circumstances! Your
production scanning environment may not be a perfect world - but thanks to
Kodak, there's a perfect scanner to get the job done! With the NEW KODAK i700
Series Scanner you'll get full speed at 300 dpi even with all image
processing features enabled. http://p.sf.net/sfu/kodak-com
_______________________________________________
Plone-docs mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs

[Erik Rose]

> One way to mitigate this — and make Plone seem a bit more modern  
> along the way — could be to apply the new typography/theme that I'm  
> currently applying to trunk. This is essentially the typography from  
> the plone.org redesign along with a color-neutral design for the  
> navigation and other UI elements. The goal is to make something that  
> you can put the company logo on, and it looks relatively decent, no  
> matter what your company colors are.

+1. A change in look effects a preception of progress way out of  
proportion with its technical significance. This should keep the  
shallow people happy so the rest of us can have our small but  
important fixes before 2010. :-)

Erik
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The NEW KODAK i700 Series Scanners deliver under ANY circumstances! Your
production scanning environment may not be a perfect world - but thanks to
Kodak, there's a perfect scanner to get the job done! With the NEW KODAK i700
Series Scanner you'll get full speed at 300 dpi even with all image
processing features enabled. http://p.sf.net/sfu/kodak-com
_______________________________________________
Plone-docs mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs