Re: [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

17 messages

Christopher Warner () Re: [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

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Re: [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone? The short answer to your question is; No.

However, there is a lot of debate on plone-docs about this problem.

--
Christopher Warner
Manager, Content Management Systems
New York Media | 75 Varick St, 4th Fl
New York, NY 10013
phone: 212.508.0542
cell: 646.334.6780

On 11/25/08 1:07 PM, "David Bear" <David.Bear@...> wrote:

Yes, you are correct. The depency tree of concepts that are important for plone is deep. Just understanding buildout and paster has been a huge undertaking for me and I started knowing pretty well how to manage plone 2.x.

Get Martin Aspelli's book "Professional Plone" --

I think the generalized difficulty here is defining audiences -- when you develop in plone are you -- skining, integrating, making new types...

But I think the 'depency tree of understanding' is not much different for java based environments -- or any other 'frameworks'.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 4:23 AM, Derek Hohls <DHohls@...> wrote:

I think I might not like the answer to this question.. but here goes.

I need to develop a customized CMS app for a project. Given my current programing strength in Python, I picked on Plone (its also deployed in-house; albeit just for a simple "information sharing" need). From reading some reviews, I took the advice to start off working with ZOPE. I duly went through the ZOPE book - and it all seemed to make good sense. Next I looked at Plone itself (also using the latest user guide) - what info it stored and how the default interface works. So far, so good. So now I face the "what next" question?

One reasonable starting point seemed to be to customize the interface (not an unreasonable need for most web applications). This seemed to send me down the following trail: first you need to understand Products; but before you can do that you need to understand Paster; but before you can do that you need to understand Buildout. Perhaps I am either over-estimating the complexity of all this - but it does seem like a ton of conceptual and mechanical detail before I can get to do *anything* (let alone show any progress on my project). I now starting to worry that when it comes to developing specialized information handling needs (inputs and displays); or customizing the existing functionality (e.g. I'd like to add a thumbs up/down option for each content type) I am going to face an even longer uphill battle.

So - my question is - is there a well-laid out "roadmap" (with side-bar for tutorials on the way) for "getting into" Plone in depth?

Any inputs appreciated!

Derek

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vedaw () Re: [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

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Re: [Plone-docs] [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone? Agreed that there are not well documented steps to get people from one place to the next, but Christopher’s response is not a very helpful one. There is good documentation out there, but it’s findability is currently low, and we are working to address this.

Installing Plone automatically gives you a buildout setup, so you don’t need to build your own. It’s not as scary as it sounds, and it’s documented well here:
http://plone.org/documentation/tutorial/buildout/

If you know you need to generate a theme product or another type of Plone product, and you’re scared of paster, use this TTW tool:
http://paster.joelburton.com

If you have questions about theming, there are several brand new documents published in the Visual Design area of plone.org/documentation which will hopefully get you started:
http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/how-to-create-a-plone-3-theme-product-on-the-filesystem
http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/how-to-install-a-3-x-theme-using-buildout
http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/change-the-logo-in-plone-3
http://plone.org/documentation/tutorial/customizing-main-template-viewlets

And of course there’s the manual:
http://plone.org/documentation/manual/theme-reference

We’re also super close to finishing up the Practical Plone book, which is available for pre-order. It’s geared towards newbies.
http://www.packtpub.com/practical-plone-3-beginners-guide-to-building-powerful-websites/book

I’m not saying getting into Plone easy, but we are trying very hard to hit the high points. And, there are a lot of people available here to help you to the next step until the documentation is able to catch up.

BTW, I don’t fully understand your statement, “I'd like to add a thumbs up/down option for each content type”. Are you asking about a rating system?

Cheers,

- Veda

On 11/25/08 10:14 AM, "Warner, Christopher" <[hidden email]> wrote:

The short answer to your question is; No.

However, there is a lot of debate on plone-docs about this problem.

--
Christopher Warner
Manager, Content Management Systems
New York Media | 75 Varick St, 4th Fl
New York, NY 10013
phone: 212.508.0542
cell: 646.334.6780

On 11/25/08 1:07 PM, "David Bear" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yes, you are correct. The depency tree of concepts that are important for plone is deep. Just understanding buildout and paster has been a huge undertaking for me and I started knowing pretty well how to manage plone 2.x.

Get Martin Aspelli's book "Professional Plone" --

I think the generalized difficulty here is defining audiences -- when you develop in plone are you -- skining, integrating, making new types...

But I think the 'depency tree of understanding' is not much different for java based environments -- or any other 'frameworks'.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 4:23 AM, Derek Hohls <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think I might not like the answer to this question.. but here goes.

I need to develop a customized CMS app for a project. Given my current programing strength in Python, I picked on Plone (its also deployed in-house; albeit just for a simple "information sharing" need). From reading some reviews, I took the advice to start off working with ZOPE. I duly went through the ZOPE book - and it all seemed to make good sense. Next I looked at Plone itself (also using the latest user guide) - what info it stored and how the default interface works. So far, so good. So now I face the "what next" question?

One reasonable starting point seemed to be to customize the interface (not an unreasonable need for most web applications). This seemed to send me down the following trail: first you need to understand Products; but before you can do that you need to understand Paster; but before you can do that you need to understand Buildout. Perhaps I am either over-estimating the complexity of all this - but it does seem like a ton of conceptual and mechanical detail before I can get to do *anything* (let alone show any progress on my project). I now starting to worry that when it comes to developing specialized information handling needs (inputs and displays); or customizing the existing functionality (e.g. I'd like to add a thumbs up/down option for each content type) I am going to face an even longer uphill battle.

So - my question is - is there a well-laid out "roadmap" (with side-bar for tutorials on the way) for "getting into" Plone in depth?

Any inputs appreciated!

Derek

Christopher Warner () Re: [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

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Re: [Plone-docs] [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone? Not helpful? That hurts; sadly as much as I would love to present a Guide or walkthrough of sorts and a more appropriate response I think what Derek is asking for is a high level overview of documentation so that he can zoom into a more specific topic when it applies to where he wants to go. That said, I have registered plonedocs.net and got some people who want to help so hopefully I can get busy and something comes of it.

--
Christopher Warner
Manager, Content Management Systems
New York Media | 75 Varick St, 4th Fl
New York, NY 10013
phone: 212.508.0542
cell: 646.334.6780

On 11/25/08 1:30 PM, "Veda Williams" <veda@...> wrote:

Agreed that there are not well documented steps to get people from one place to the next, but Christopher’s response is not a very helpful one. There is good documentation out there, but it’s findability is currently low, and we are working to address this.

Installing Plone automatically gives you a buildout setup, so you don’t need to build your own. It’s not as scary as it sounds, and it’s documented well here:
http://plone.org/documentation/tutorial/buildout/

If you know you need to generate a theme product or another type of Plone product, and you’re scared of paster, use this TTW tool:
http://paster.joelburton.com

If you have questions about theming, there are several brand new documents published in the Visual Design area of plone.org/documentation which will hopefully get you started:
http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/how-to-create-a-plone-3-theme-product-on-the-filesystem
http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/how-to-install-a-3-x-theme-using-buildout
http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/change-the-logo-in-plone-3
http://plone.org/documentation/tutorial/customizing-main-template-viewlets

And of course there’s the manual:
http://plone.org/documentation/manual/theme-reference

We’re also super close to finishing up the Practical Plone book, which is available for pre-order. It’s geared towards newbies.
http://www.packtpub.com/practical-plone-3-beginners-guide-to-building-powerful-websites/book

I’m not saying getting into Plone easy, but we are trying very hard to hit the high points. And, there are a lot of people available here to help you to the next step until the documentation is able to catch up.

BTW, I don’t fully understand your statement, “I'd like to add a thumbs up/down option for each content type”. Are you asking about a rating system?

Cheers,

- Veda

On 11/25/08 10:14 AM, "Warner, Christopher" <Christopher.Warner@...> wrote:

The short answer to your question is; No.

However, there is a lot of debate on plone-docs about this problem.

vedaw () Re: [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

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Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

Re: [Plone-docs] [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone? I just mean to say that agreed, there isn’t an easy way in, but to not suggest an alternative is not helpful.

For what it’s worth, the documentation team editors have a meeting scheduled for December 2nd to vote on some of the issues that have been flying around on the docs list, and SteveM will be here in Seattle with me the first weekend of December to start moving on some of these items. We’ve had our hands tied by the 3.0 migration of plone.org for some time now, so we look forward to finally getting moving on changes that should hopefully make people happier (and make documentation findable and of better quality).

Best,

- Veda

On 11/25/08 10:57 AM, "Warner, Christopher" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Not helpful? That hurts; sadly as much as I would love to present a Guide or walkthrough of sorts and a more appropriate response I think what Derek is asking for is a high level overview of documentation so that he can zoom into a more specific topic when it applies to where he wants to go. That said, I have registered plonedocs.net and got some people who want to help so hopefully I can get busy and something comes of it.

Martin Aspeli-2 () Re: [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

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In reply to this post by Christopher Warner

Warner, Christopher wrote:
> I have registered plonedocs.net and got some
> people who want to help so hopefully I can get busy and something comes
> of it.

I really wish you'd contribute to the centralised documentation effort
rather than start your own. Third party documentation sources have never
managed to stay up to date and relevant in the past, and having multiple
sources of documentation would likely confuse users. You'd also need to
get permission from the Foundtation to use that particular domain name.

There's a lot of debate about documentation on the docs list right now,
and it seems, a chance for people to pull together and improve the
current situation. We need all the help we can get for that to happen,
though, and pulling in different directions is likely to dilute these
efforts.

Martin

--
Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book

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Christopher Warner () Re: [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

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In reply to this post by Christopher Warner

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Re: [Plone-docs] [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

As much as I would love to contribute it seems as if there is more debate than actual work going on. It doesn't seem constructive to me either. As much as I enjoy books and manuals and constructive debate over a project in any direction, none of that is taking place.

I see a lot of links, a lot of recomendation to books people are writing and generally no help for the people that need it right now. Personally and professionally I need it. So I'm being proactive; feel free to debate etc or do whatever. If I spin my wheels so be it but at least I'd have something to work with and give other people.

Again for myself and for the other programmers and users at new york media and elsewhere that need it. Some comprehensive documentation needs to be written and some sort of walkthrough guide for new users. I don't claim to have all the answers and as a topic itself. People should have the option of purchasing manuals, it shouldn't be the only solution.

When I started with plone all I had was your book and it was difficult. It doesn't need to be like that.

In regards to plonedocs.net I'm not a lawyer so i can't comment. I'll refer this to one and if I need to switch it to something else I will.

-C

----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Aspeli <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tue Nov 25 15:54:19 2008
Subject: Re: [Plone-docs] [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

Warner, Christopher wrote:
> I have registered plonedocs.net and got some
> people who want to help so hopefully I can get busy and something comes
> of it.

I really wish you'd contribute to the centralised documentation effort
rather than start your own. Third party documentation sources have never
managed to stay up to date and relevant in the past, and having multiple
sources of documentation would likely confuse users. You'd also need to
get permission from the Foundtation to use that particular domain name.

There's a lot of debate about documentation on the docs list right now,
and it seems, a chance for people to pull together and improve the
current situation. We need all the help we can get for that to happen,
though, and pulling in different directions is likely to dilute these
efforts.

Martin

--
Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book

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_______________________________________________
Plone-docs mailing list
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Israel Saeta Pérez () Re: [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

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On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:24 PM, Warner, Christopher wrote:

Again for myself and for the other programmers and users at new york media and elsewhere that need it. Some comprehensive documentation needs to be written and some sort of walkthrough guide for new users. I don't claim to have all the answers and as a topic itself. People should have the option of purchasing manuals, it shouldn't be the only solution.

I agree we need more mid-level documentation but, what's the point of creating a new documentation source for that? Why don't you want to place it into plone.org?

We're already working on "getting started" documents and would welcome your help.

-- israel

Israel Saeta Pérez

Martin Aspeli-2 () Re: [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Christopher Warner

Warner, Christopher wrote:
> As much as I would love to contribute it seems as if there is more
> debate than actual work going on. It doesn't seem constructive to me
> either. As much as I enjoy books and manuals and constructive debate
> over a project in any direction, none of that is taking place.

You're saying there's no constructive debate about the documentation
going on? That's a pretty astonishing comment.

> I see a lot of links, a lot of recomendation to books people are writing
> and generally no help for the people that need it right now. Personally
> and professionally I need it. So I'm being proactive; feel free to
> debate etc or do whatever. If I spin my wheels so be it but at least I'd
> have something to work with and give other people.

We are very grateful that you want to give back. I just don't understand
why that has to be on a separate website, disjointed from the other
documentation.

> Again for myself and for the other programmers and users at new york
> media and elsewhere that need it. Some comprehensive documentation
> needs to be written and some sort of walkthrough guide for new users. I
> don't claim to have all the answers and as a topic itself. People should
> have the option of purchasing manuals, it shouldn't be the only solution.

I think these comments will sadden a lot of people who are trying to
make a difference and struggling to find enough time. By implying that
they are not being productive or constructive, you're denigrating the
volunteer work they are putting in. By going it alone, you are wasting
an opportunity to improve the official documentation.

Maybe you'll manage to produce a wonderful resource that solves all of
Plone's documentation problems. More likely, you'll produce a little and
then find that you don't have the time to keep it up to date or the
necessary expertise to complete it. Users will have two imperfect
resources rather than one less imperfect one. You may end up
exacerbating the very problem you are trying to solve.

> When I started with plone all I had was your book and it was difficult.
> It doesn't need to be like that.

No, it doesn't, and my book was never meant to be a starting point.

I would really urge you to consider joining forces with those that, like
you, have a real desire to improve Plone's documentation, and find a way
to avoid overlap. Why don't you start by writing down what you are
proposing to do differently, and why you feel the need to do it outside
the official documentation site? It may be that your ideas and those of
the others on the documentation list are not as far apart as you seem to
assume.

> In regards to plonedocs.net I'm not a lawyer so i can't comment. I'll
> refer this to one and if I need to switch it to something else I will.

Me neither, but you should contact the Foundation to avoid a trademark
dispute later. I'm sure it can be sorted out easily enough, but having a
'plonedocs.net' that's not controlled by the Foundation or part of the
official documentation effort is likely to fall foul of the trademark
guidelines

In this case, the problem is not that you'd be unfairly profiting from
the name, but rather that by having something that's not "official"
appear on an "official-looking" domain name, the perception that new
users gain of Plone could be damaged.

Martin

--
Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book

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Christopher Warner () Re: [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

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In reply to this post by Christopher Warner

If someone can tell me where I can contribute to an overview guide?? I'm not really concerned with what anyone does with it. So long as it retains my copyright it can be sold, burned, or whatever..

II'd just like to get started and get past what software we are going to use and all that.

What's the toc look like?

-C

From: Israel Saeta Pérez
To: Warner, Christopher
Cc: [hidden email]

Sent: Tue Nov 25 16:51:24 2008
Subject: Re: [Plone-docs] [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:24 PM, Warner, Christopher wrote:

Again for myself and for the other programmers and users at new york media and elsewhere that need it. Some comprehensive documentation needs to be written and some sort of walkthrough guide for new users. I don't claim to have all the answers and as a topic itself. People should have the option of purchasing manuals, it shouldn't be the only solution.

Dylan Jay-4 () Re: [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

Reply Threaded

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

Here is the TOC that’s been started for collective.sphinx.plonedocs

plone-with-buildout

create-product

traversal

browser-views

page-templates

genericsetup-profiles

security and workflow

plone-content-types

archetypes

viewlets

portlets

dynamic pages

Standalone views and forms

using the catalog

tools and utilities

Events

content-rules

Not perfect but it’s a start.

Dylan Jay
Technical Solutions Manager, PretaWeb.com
---
M:+61421477460 ~ MSN:[hidden email] ~ Y!+Skype:dylan_jay ~ ICQ:520341

From: Warner, Christopher [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, 26 November 2008 9:20 AM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Plone-docs] [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

From: Israel Saeta Pérez
To: Warner, Christopher
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Tue Nov 25 16:51:24 2008
Subject: Re: [Plone-docs] [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:24 PM, Warner, Christopher wrote:

Again for myself and for the other programmers and users at new york media and elsewhere that need it. Some comprehensive documentation needs to be written and some sort of walkthrough guide for new users. I don't claim to have all the answers and as a topic itself. People should have the option of purchasing manuals, it shouldn't be the only solution.

vedaw () Re: [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Christopher Warner

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

Re: [Plone-docs] [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone? Israel, I’m sure you’re on it, but perhaps he could help with the getting started guide? Perhaps he’d like to claim a section or two? Maybe it’s time to turn it into a multipage doc so that we don’t run into locking issues?

Also, my understanding is that all docs on plone.org are covered by Creative Commons, so I don’t know if that’s an issue for you, Christopher. If it’s not, I’m happy to give you doc team rights so that you can see the document that Israel has been working on. What’s your ID on plone.org?

Cheers,

- Veda

On 11/25/08 2:19 PM, "Warner, Christopher" <[hidden email]> wrote:

If someone can tell me where I can contribute to an overview guide?? I'm not really concerned with what anyone does with it. So long as it retains my copyright it can be sold, burned, or whatever..

II'd just like to get started and get past what software we are going to use and all that.

What's the toc look like?

-C

From: Israel Saeta Pérez
To: Warner, Christopher
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Tue Nov 25 16:51:24 2008
Subject: Re: [Plone-docs] [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?
On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:24 PM, Warner, Christopher wrote:

Again for myself and for the other programmers and users at new york media and elsewhere that need it. Some comprehensive documentation needs to be written and some sort of walkthrough guide for new users. I don't claim to have all the answers and as a topic itself. People should have the option of purchasing manuals, it shouldn't be the only solution.

I agree we need more mid-level documentation but, what's the point of creating a new documentation source for that? Why don't you want to place it into plone.org <http://plone.org> ?

We're already working on "getting started" documents and would welcome your help.

-- israel

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Steve McMahon () Re: [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Christopher Warner

Speaking strictly for myself, and not the board, use of the domain
name plonedocs.net for a non-commercial, non-promotional purpose that
cannot be confused with any other Plone effort, would *probably* fall
within the foundation's fair use guidelines. The PF does own the Plone
trademark and reserves the right to determine for itself what's fair
use.

This was pretty well done with learnplone.org, though I think it's
great that most of those documents are migrating to
plone.org/documentation.

That said, I agree with Martin. Far, far better to contribute to the
plone.org effort than to set up yet another doc source.

Steve

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 1:24 PM, Warner, Christopher
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> As much as I would love to contribute it seems as if there is more debate
> than actual work going on. It doesn't seem constructive to me either. As
> much as I enjoy books and manuals and constructive debate over a project in
> any direction, none of that is taking place.
>
> I see a lot of links, a lot of recomendation to books people are writing and
> generally no help for the people that need it right now. Personally and
> professionally I need it. So I'm being proactive; feel free to debate etc or
> do whatever. If I spin my wheels so be it but at least I'd have something to
> work with and give other people.
>
> Again for myself and for the other programmers and users at new york media
> and elsewhere that need it. Some comprehensive documentation needs to be
> written and some sort of walkthrough guide for new users. I don't claim to
> have all the answers and as a topic itself. People should have the option of
> purchasing manuals, it shouldn't be the only solution.
>
> When I started with plone all I had was your book and it was difficult. It
> doesn't need to be like that.
>
> In regards to plonedocs.net I'm not a lawyer so i can't comment. I'll refer
> this to one and if I need to switch it to something else I will.
>
> -C
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Martin Aspeli <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tue Nov 25 15:54:19 2008
> Subject: Re: [Plone-docs] [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?
>
> Warner, Christopher wrote:
>> I have registered plonedocs.net and got some
>> people who want to help so hopefully I can get busy and something comes
>> of it.
>
> I really wish you'd contribute to the centralised documentation effort
> rather than start your own. Third party documentation sources have never
> managed to stay up to date and relevant in the past, and having multiple
> sources of documentation would likely confuse users. You'd also need to
> get permission from the Foundtation to use that particular domain name.
>
> There's a lot of debate about documentation on the docs list right now,
> and it seems, a chance for people to pull together and improve the
> current situation. We need all the help we can get for that to happen,
> though, and pulling in different directions is likely to dilute these
> efforts.
>
> Martin
>
> --
> Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
> want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book
>
>
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Christopher Warner () Re: [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Martin Aspeli-2

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

RE: [Plone-docs] [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

Come on Martin.. I'm not saying there is no constructive debate in the sense that people aren't trying to get something. I'm saying we could sit and talk about this forever and from what I can tell and have read that seems to be the standard de facto.

My reasons for being so shotgun-like if you will is because content management is my job. At a media institution; I can't petition for more Plone developers or help if I can't back it up. It's a business, so I can't say, "Times are tough I know, but give me X amount of money by next fiscal year I want to get Plone developers and work with X consultant company. There's no high level overview, so even if it's hard and we know it's hard I'm willing to spend the developer time and money just because!" If I can't provide some sort of high level documentation and get other managers and developers on board then no matter how much I say "It's good, I bet my life on it". We will be <insert other php content management system> shop by the end of the year.

I'm not trying to slap anyone in the face, or make it seem as if their contributions aren't important at all! Seeing as I've volunteered time and code to other projects that would be silly. It's the only way I have gotten as far as I have with Plone, from reading bits and pieces of blogs, other websites and scouring Plone.org. Triaging the code with grep and generally using the irc room as a candy machine. Not only that but some of the documentation I find explains exactly what I need to do in an accessible manner. So to white wash it as if I'm just spitting on peoples contributions is a little disingenuous.

As far as writing it down. That's what I plan on doing; and plonedocs.net was where I was going to do that. To avoid any lapse in me doing what I have to do I'll just switch it to something else. I'm willing to work under the umbrella of the Plone foundation but I can't wait weeks discussing wiki vs plone product vs whatever. I realize the documentation team has formal processes and goals but in the meantime I have work to do and with no reference manual it's becoming increasingly difficult to get it done or to have conversations about this technology with the business folk.

So all I am asking is for someone to point in the right direction, tell me what I need to do or to allow me to make headway somewhere. That said, for people who are going to respond to this and not CC the list there is no need to respond. I'm getting too much of that and it's not helping this discussion if everyone can't benefit from what you'd have to say.

-C

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Aspeli [[hidden email]]
Sent: Tue 11/25/2008 5:18 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Plone-docs] [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

Warner, Christopher wrote:
> As much as I would love to contribute it seems as if there is more
> debate than actual work going on. It doesn't seem constructive to me
> either. As much as I enjoy books and manuals and constructive debate
> over a project in any direction, none of that is taking place.

You're saying there's no constructive debate about the documentation
going on? That's a pretty astonishing comment.

> I see a lot of links, a lot of recomendation to books people are writing
> and generally no help for the people that need it right now. Personally
> and professionally I need it. So I'm being proactive; feel free to
> debate etc or do whatever. If I spin my wheels so be it but at least I'd
> have something to work with and give other people.

We are very grateful that you want to give back. I just don't understand
why that has to be on a separate website, disjointed from the other
documentation.

> Again for myself and for the other programmers and users at new york
> media and elsewhere that need it. Some comprehensive documentation
> needs to be written and some sort of walkthrough guide for new users. I
> don't claim to have all the answers and as a topic itself. People should
> have the option of purchasing manuals, it shouldn't be the only solution.

I think these comments will sadden a lot of people who are trying to
make a difference and struggling to find enough time. By implying that
they are not being productive or constructive, you're denigrating the
volunteer work they are putting in. By going it alone, you are wasting
an opportunity to improve the official documentation.

Maybe you'll manage to produce a wonderful resource that solves all of
Plone's documentation problems. More likely, you'll produce a little and
then find that you don't have the time to keep it up to date or the
necessary expertise to complete it. Users will have two imperfect
resources rather than one less imperfect one. You may end up
exacerbating the very problem you are trying to solve.

> When I started with plone all I had was your book and it was difficult.
> It doesn't need to be like that.

No, it doesn't, and my book was never meant to be a starting point.

I would really urge you to consider joining forces with those that, like
you, have a real desire to improve Plone's documentation, and find a way
to avoid overlap. Why don't you start by writing down what you are
proposing to do differently, and why you feel the need to do it outside
the official documentation site? It may be that your ideas and those of
the others on the documentation list are not as far apart as you seem to
assume.

> In regards to plonedocs.net I'm not a lawyer so i can't comment. I'll
> refer this to one and if I need to switch it to something else I will.

Me neither, but you should contact the Foundation to avoid a trademark
dispute later. I'm sure it can be sorted out easily enough, but having a
'plonedocs.net' that's not controlled by the Foundation or part of the
official documentation effort is likely to fall foul of the trademark
guidelines

In this case, the problem is not that you'd be unfairly profiting from
the name, but rather that by having something that's not "official"
appear on an "official-looking" domain name, the perception that new
users gain of Plone could be damaged.

Martin

--
Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book

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Christopher Warner () Re: [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by vedaw

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

RE: [Plone-docs] [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

cwarner; and getting started guide would be perfect. Where ever I can help with newbie like documentation or the api.

Thanks Veda,
-C

-----Original Message-----
From: Veda Williams [[hidden email]]
Sent: Tue 11/25/2008 5:52 PM
To: Warner, Christopher; [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Plone-docs] [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

Israel, I'm sure you're on it, but perhaps he could help with the getting started guide? Perhaps he'd like to claim a section or two? Maybe it's time to turn it into a multipage doc so that we don't run into locking issues?

Also, my understanding is that all docs on plone.org are covered by Creative Commons, so I don't know if that's an issue for you, Christopher. If it's not, I'm happy to give you doc team rights so that you can see the document that Israel has been working on. What's your ID on plone.org?

Cheers,

- Veda

On 11/25/08 2:19 PM, "Warner, Christopher" <[hidden email]> wrote:

        If someone can tell me where I can contribute to an overview guide?? I'm not really concerned with what anyone does with it. So long as it retains my copyright it can be sold, burned, or whatever..

        II'd just like to get started and get past what software we are going to use and all that.

        What's the toc look like?

        -C


________________________________

        From: Israel Saeta Pérez
        To: Warner, Christopher
        Cc: [hidden email]
        Sent: Tue Nov 25 16:51:24 2008
        Subject: Re: [Plone-docs] [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?
        On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:24 PM, Warner, Christopher wrote:


                Again for myself and for the other programmers and users at new york media and elsewhere that need it. Some comprehensive documentation needs to be written and some sort of walkthrough guide for new users. I don't claim to have all the answers and as a topic itself. People should have the option of purchasing manuals, it shouldn't be the only solution.


        I agree we need more mid-level documentation but, what's the point of creating a new documentation source for that? Why don't you want to place it into plone.org <http://plone.org> <http://plone.org> ?

        We're already working on "getting started" documents and would welcome your help.

        -- israel


________________________________

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vedaw () Re: [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Christopher Warner

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

Re: [Plone-docs] [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone? I believe the folks at WebLion have opened up their wiki and wouldn’t mind contributions. It’s become a very popular resource over time, and we plan on scraping relevant documentation from there, as time permits.

In the meantime, I’ve given you rights to Israel’s doc and you can communicate directly with him on where you think you two can collaborate. He’s cc’d here.

The document, by the way, is: http://plone.org/documentation/tutorial/getting-started-with-plone

- Veda

On 11/25/08 3:02 PM, "Warner, Christopher" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Come on Martin.. I'm not saying there is no constructive debate in the sense that people aren't trying to get something. I'm saying we could sit and talk about this forever and from what I can tell and have read that seems to be the standard de facto.

My reasons for being so shotgun-like if you will is because content management is my job. At a media institution; I can't petition for more Plone developers or help if I can't back it up. It's a business, so I can't say, "Times are tough I know, but give me X amount of money by next fiscal year I want to get Plone developers and work with X consultant company. There's no high level overview, so even if it's hard and we know it's hard I'm willing to spend the developer time and money just because!" If I can't provide some sort of high level documentation and get other managers and developers on board then no matter how much I say "It's good, I bet my life on it". We will be <insert other php content management system> shop by the end of the year.

I'm not trying to slap anyone in the face, or make it seem as if their contributions aren't important at all! Seeing as I've volunteered time and code to other projects that would be silly. It's the only way I have gotten as far as I have with Plone, from reading bits and pieces of blogs, other websites and scouring Plone.org. Triaging the code with grep and generally using the irc room as a candy machine. Not only that but some of the documentation I find explains exactly what I need to do in an accessible manner. So to white wash it as if I'm just spitting on peoples contributions is a little disingenuous.

As far as writing it down. That's what I plan on doing; and plonedocs.net was where I was going to do that. To avoid any lapse in me doing what I have to do I'll just switch it to something else. I'm willing to work under the umbrella of the Plone foundation but I can't wait weeks discussing wiki vs plone product vs whatever. I realize the documentation team has formal processes and goals but in the meantime I have work to do and with no reference manual it's becoming increasingly difficult to get it done or to have conversations about this technology with the business folk.

So all I am asking is for someone to point in the right direction, tell me what I need to do or to allow me to make headway somewhere. That said, for people who are going to respond to this and not CC the list there is no need to respond. I'm getting too much of that and it's not helping this discussion if everyone can't benefit from what you'd have to say.

-C

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Aspeli [[hidden email]
Sent: Tue 11/25/2008 5:18 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Plone-docs] [Plone-Users] Next step/s with Plone?

Warner, Christopher wrote:
> As much as I would love to contribute it seems as if there is more
> debate than actual work going on. It doesn't seem constructive to me
> either. As much as I enjoy books and manuals and constructive debate
> over a project in any direction, none of that is taking place.

You're saying there's no constructive debate about the documentation
going on? That's a pretty astonishing comment.

> I see a lot of links, a lot of recomendation to books people are writing
> and generally no help for the people that need it right now. Personally
> and professionally I need it. So I'm being proactive; feel free to
> debate etc or do whatever. If I spin my wheels so be it but at least I'd
> have something to work with and give other people.

We are very grateful that you want to give back. I just don't understand
why that has to be on a separate website, disjointed from the other
documentation.

> Again for myself and for the other programmers and users at new york
> media and elsewhere that need it. Some comprehensive documentation
> needs to be written and some sort of walkthrough guide for new users. I
> don't claim to have all the answers and as a topic itself. People should
> have the option of purchasing manuals, it shouldn't be the only solution.

I think these comments will sadden a lot of people who are trying to
make a difference and struggling to find enough time. By implying that
they are not being productive or constructive, you're denigrating the
volunteer work they are putting in. By going it alone, you are wasting
an opportunity to improve the official documentation.

Maybe you'll manage to produce a wonderful resource that solves all of
Plone's documentation problems. More likely, you'll produce a little and
then find that you don't have the time to keep it up to date or the
necessary expertise to complete it. Users will have two imperfect
resources rather than one less imperfect one. You may end up
exacerbating the very problem you are trying to solve.

> When I started with plone all I had was your book and it was difficult.
> It doesn't need to be like that.

No, it doesn't, and my book was never meant to be a starting point.

I would really urge you to consider joining forces with those that, like
you, have a real desire to improve Plone's documentation, and find a way
to avoid overlap. Why don't you start by writing down what you are
proposing to do differently, and why you feel the need to do it outside
the official documentation site? It may be that your ideas and those of
the others on the documentation list are not as far apart as you seem to
assume.

> In regards to plonedocs.net I'm not a lawyer so i can't comment. I'll
> refer this to one and if I need to switch it to something else I will.

Me neither, but you should contact the Foundation to avoid a trademark
dispute later. I'm sure it can be sorted out easily enough, but having a
'plonedocs.net' that's not controlled by the Foundation or part of the
official documentation effort is likely to fall foul of the trademark
guidelines

In this case, the problem is not that you'd be unfairly profiting from
the name, but rather that by having something that's not "official"
appear on an "official-looking" domain name, the perception that new
users gain of Plone could be damaged.

Martin

--
Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book

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Ricardo Newbery-2 () Plone doc team visibility, reports and metrics

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by vedaw

I occasionally read concerns that nothing appears to be happening on
the doc team front. Perhaps the work of the doc team needs more
visibility. Some suggestions:

___________________________________________
Minor Tweaks to Current Visibility:

Currently, the only info you can easily [sic] find about the doc team
is here:

http://plone.org/development/teams/documentation/

This page is a little sparse but you still need to hunt for this
info. Perhaps this page needs a little more flesh and a prominent
link from the documentation area.

Under "Contacting the Doc Team", we see links to #plone chat and the
generic landing page for Plone support. Neither of these two links
are terribly helpful if you're actually trying to contact the team.
Perhaps it should link directly to the doc team list:

http://n2.nabble.com/Documentation-Team-f293358ef293351.html
(or whatever is the equivalent in plone.org)

The section on "Contributing Documentation" is not bad and the link to
the issue tracker (https://dev.plone.org/plone/report/8) is
appreciated but it could also use a link to the Openplans workspace:

http://www.openplans.org/projects/plone-documentation

___________________________________________
New Reports and Metrics:

Perhaps it might be helpful to provide a timeline of what specifically
has been happening on the doc team front, what is expected to happen
in the near future, and what is still pending or being discussed. You
can glean some of this from perusing the mailing-list and the
Openplans workspace but it might be helpful to gather this up into a
single page timeline/report linked from the doc team page (but only if
the doc team can keep this report updated).

Also some metrics on the editing activity might be useful (also linked
from the doc team page): how many new docs are being submitted, how
many edits to old docs are being submitted, how many are published,
how many existing docs are retracted/removed.... that sort of thing.
If this data is not being captured, perhaps this can be considered for
a future enhancement of the Help Center product.

And finally, perhaps we need a better way to display a list of the
most recently created/edited docs and it too linked from the doc team
page. The current link for "Newest documentation" is too easy to miss
and it's the sort of thing that someone perusing the doc team page
might appreciate (if for no other reason than that it shows that the
doc team is actually doing something). The newest documentation
display should also just show a single reverse-chronological listing
instead of the current grouping by doc type -- The important criteria
is the modification date, not the doc type, although I guess it might
be helpful to include the doc type label within the individual listings.

Anyway, that's my brain dump for today.

Cheers,
Ric

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vedaw () Re: Plone doc team visibility, reports and metrics

Reply Threaded

All good ideas, Ricardo. The items that are specific to the view leading
into the plone/documentation area I will put on my list of desired changes
that I've been hoarding over recent weeks, and we'll make a point to update
this page (which I was not aware even existed):
http://plone.org/development/teams/documentation/

I think that as soon as we have the editors' meeting on Dec. 2, we'll be
better situated to expose the agenda to the greater public. We do have
meeting minutes on the openplans site listing what the individual editors
have been up to, and we do monthly updates:

http://www.openplans.org/projects/plone-documentation/meeting-agendas

One thing a lot of people don't understand is that we've just gotten editors
assigned as of the October 2008 Plone conference -- a little over a month
ago. Based on the editors' meeting in DC, our current timelines are as
follows:

End of 2008:
--------------

1) Set up plone-editors list (done)

2) Publish list of editors (done)

3) Set schedule for editors meetings (done)

4) Section assessments and identification of missing docs (in progress)

5) Vote on changes to plone.org based on editor decisions re: community /
core docs, wiki, sphinx, manual-based system, whether we will keep PHC
content types and current behavior (next week)

6) Clarify guidelines on community and core docs (beginning of Decmeber)

7) Spec out functionality needed to support #3 and begin content migration,
as needed and complete 3.0 migration (finalized by mid-december, in progress
by December 7)

8) Create standard process for getting new people into the
plone-documentation process and (mentoring, follow-up) (50% complete)

1st Quarter of 2009:
--------------------

1) Scrape content from competing wikis

2) Hide obsolete documentation or release it into the "wild" community docs
area

3) Finish design revisions for plone.org/documentation section based on
community / core docs discussions and more

4) Finish implementation of plone.org/documentation section

5) Establish metrics for tracking our success

I'm sure there are other things that could be added on here, depending on
how the vote next week turns out, e.g. Identify new manuals and define
initial TOC, Assign team for sphinx implementation, etc. We'll get to those
on the calendar as the need arises.

I agree that posting this on plone.org as meeting minutes might make it more
official. And, tracking new documents will have to be done by hand for now,
but we've got big plans for doing content rules / notifications, etc. in the
docs section, and metrics could play into that as well, e.g. a "show me the
docs published in the last month" kind of thing.

Cheers,

- Veda

On 11/25/08 3:28 PM, "Ricardo Newbery" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I occasionally read concerns that nothing appears to be happening on
> the doc team front. Perhaps the work of the doc team needs more
> visibility. Some suggestions:
>
> ___________________________________________
> Minor Tweaks to Current Visibility:
>
> Currently, the only info you can easily [sic] find about the doc team
> is here:
>
> http://plone.org/development/teams/documentation/
>
> This page is a little sparse but you still need to hunt for this
> info. Perhaps this page needs a little more flesh and a prominent
> link from the documentation area.
>
> Under "Contacting the Doc Team", we see links to #plone chat and the
> generic landing page for Plone support. Neither of these two links
> are terribly helpful if you're actually trying to contact the team.
> Perhaps it should link directly to the doc team list:
>
> http://n2.nabble.com/Documentation-Team-f293358ef293351.html
> (or whatever is the equivalent in plone.org)
>
> The section on "Contributing Documentation" is not bad and the link to
> the issue tracker (https://dev.plone.org/plone/report/8) is
> appreciated but it could also use a link to the Openplans workspace:
>
> http://www.openplans.org/projects/plone-documentation
>
> ___________________________________________
> New Reports and Metrics:
>
> Perhaps it might be helpful to provide a timeline of what specifically
> has been happening on the doc team front, what is expected to happen
> in the near future, and what is still pending or being discussed. You
> can glean some of this from perusing the mailing-list and the
> Openplans workspace but it might be helpful to gather this up into a
> single page timeline/report linked from the doc team page (but only if
> the doc team can keep this report updated).
>
> Also some metrics on the editing activity might be useful (also linked
> from the doc team page): how many new docs are being submitted, how
> many edits to old docs are being submitted, how many are published,
> how many existing docs are retracted/removed.... that sort of thing.
> If this data is not being captured, perhaps this can be considered for
> a future enhancement of the Help Center product.
>
> And finally, perhaps we need a better way to display a list of the
> most recently created/edited docs and it too linked from the doc team
> page. The current link for "Newest documentation" is too easy to miss
> and it's the sort of thing that someone perusing the doc team page
> might appreciate (if for no other reason than that it shows that the
> doc team is actually doing something). The newest documentation
> display should also just show a single reverse-chronological listing
> instead of the current grouping by doc type -- The important criteria
> is the modification date, not the doc type, although I guess it might
> be helpful to include the doc type label within the individual listings.
>
> Anyway, that's my brain dump for today.
>
> Cheers,
> Ric
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge
> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes
> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world
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> _______________________________________________
> Plone-docs mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs