Re: Plone NGO Mailing List Christian Aid go for Microsoft over OpenSource

6 messages Options
Embed this post
Permalink
david-sandy

Re: Plone NGO Mailing List Christian Aid go for Microsoft over OpenSource

Reply Threaded More More options
Print post
Permalink
I am currently on annual leave until Tuesday 14th November 2006, and will respond to your e-mail on my return.

For all general support matters please contact the IT Help Desk on 01276 605544.

Regards,
David Sandy
Web Developer
Surrey HIS

>>> ngo 11/11/06 10:23 >>>

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 14:29:21 -0800, Zahid Malik  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sorry if this is slightly off-topic but I though it was an interesting
> piece (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6124582.stm) on Christian
> Aid's arguments for using Microsoft over Open Source. Some of these
> are relevant to Plone's entry into NGO's. You can see what slashdot
> thought of it all
> (http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/06/11/09/152257.shtml).

This is a pretty uninformed article, and as mentioned on Slashdot, the  
people don't seem to understand the difference between code and data.

I have actually spoken to these people a while back about using open  
source (if I'm not mixing up people here) * and Plone * and I won't say  
more than that I'm not surprised that they ended up going with Microsoft.

--
_____________________________________________________________________

      Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway

  Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com
_____________________________________________________________________

       Plone Co-Founder · http://plone.org · Connecting Content
   Plone Foundation · http://plone.org/foundation · Protecting Plone
 


_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo


_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo
Martin Aspeli-2

Re: Plone NGO Mailing List Christian Aid go for Microsoft over OpenSource

Reply Threaded More More options
Print post
Permalink
David Sandy wrote:
> I am currently on annual leave until Tuesday 14th November 2006, and will respond to your e-mail on my return.
>
> For all general support matters please contact the IT Help Desk on 01276 605544.

If I call them, can they turn off your out-of-office replies? :)

Martin


_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo
Ungerleider, Jack

RE: Plone NGO Mailing List Christian Aid go for Microsoft over OpenSource

Reply Threaded More More options
Print post
Permalink
In reply to this post by david-sandy
 I'm interested in this statement:

"You can't have people running local Plone's in most situations."

Why not? Speaking only from a system resource perspective, if you can
run Word on a system you can run Plone.

Before I got into Zope and then Plone I was a Lotus Notes programmer for
a couple of years. The dropdead feature of Notes was always the
replication engine. I used to live in Madison, WI and develop for a
company in Minneapolis, MN. Everything was done locally an replicated to
the server. Notes had the concept of the "Local Server". I've often
wondered if Zope could be adapted to a store and forward concept of a
local server. (BTW my connection at the time, 10 years ago, was dial-up
14.4 or 33.6 Kb)

Then main issue is conflict resolution. If that can be worked out so
that no content is lost that would be a killer option. Of course since
we're talk low speed connections in most cases it would work even better
if some sort of delta concept could be worked out to only send the
changes. This could be a side benefit of the change history mechanism.

I don't know enough about Zope internals to know if this is even
feasable. Andy do you know?


Jack Ungerleider
IT Professional
Community Involvement Programs
IT Helpdesk: 612 362 4454
Direct Line: 612 362 4455
Cell: 612 328 8666
E-mail: [hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
On Behalf Of Andy McKay
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 2:27 PM
To: A list for NGOs (Non-Governmental Organizations) using Plone.
Subject: Re: Plone NGO Mailing List Christian Aid go for Microsoft over
OpenSource

Unfortunately offline is here to stay for quite a long time, and for  
organisations that go into places with poor internet connectivity a  
common problem that isn't going to get solved soon. Gosh I have  
problems getting online in the north of england :)

The moving of data on and offline is relatively straightfoward and a  
known problem. You have to snyc the content up and down at some  
point, lock it and so on. That's all doable, but I don't know of  
anyone working on that in Plone. If anyone is, let me know.

One of the big problems is that you lose a huge amount of  
functionality when you take people out of Plone. You can't have  
people running local Plone's in most situations. So to edit a peice  
of content, I couldn't use say Kupu... so instead people rely on rich  
editors and before we know it everyone's using Word and we have  
another problem.

This is compounded by complex, structured content types. At it's  
simplest, how do you edit a Plone event offline? iCal or Outlook?  
They will load files and then save them internally, so you can't  
really use those. You either have to limit it down "we'll only edit  
Word or HTML documents", find standard rich editors (eg Word or XML  
editor) or use some made up syntax (eg ExternalEditor and the way it  
adds metadata).
--

   Andy McKay



_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo

_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo
Andy McKay-3

Re: Plone NGO Mailing List Christian Aid go for Microsoft over OpenSource

Reply Threaded More More options
Print post
Permalink
> "You can't have people running local Plone's in most situations."
>
> Why not? Speaking only from a system resource perspective, if you can
> run Word on a system you can run Plone.
...
>
> I don't know enough about Zope internals to know if this is even
> feasable. Andy do you know?

Yes, and ok you got me. You were meant to skip over that bit :)

You can run Plone pretty much anywhere, I maintained the Windows  
installer and it did get a little bit hairy installing Plone on  
things like Windows 95 but anything there gets hairy. In fact there  
was a lightning talk by Andreas Jung at the Plone conference, where  
he describes installing it on something like 20,000 desktops. The  
problem I've found is that most people don't run Plone out of the  
box. In fact it's normally heavily customised for sites in ways that  
cause issues.

For example your server could be running on Linux, so various  
components of the site like full text indexing or portal transforms  
wouldn't work because they depend upon Linux binaries. You'd need to  
keep products in sync., so that Archetypes content types all other  
the place would be the exact same version. You'd need to ensure  
security is correctly applied (you can't copy down that whole 10G db  
containing private data now) and so on....

Further Plone is a bit of a beast to start and stop. The thought of  
starting Plone to go in and quickly edit a document, on some laptop's  
I've seen would be... erm a challenge.

So let me rephrase that. "For anything other than a trivial site,  
running Plone locally for lots of people is a challenge and you'd  
have to work at that". As ever, pick your poison.
--
   Andy McKay
   Blue Fountain



_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo
Raphael Ritz

Re: Plone NGO Mailing List Christian Aid go for Microsoft over OpenSource

Reply Threaded More More options
Print post
Permalink
In reply to this post by Ungerleider, Jack
Ungerleider, Jack schrieb:

[..]

>
> Then main issue is conflict resolution. If that can be worked out so
> that no content is lost that would be a killer option. Of course since
> we're talk low speed connections in most cases it would work even better
> if some sort of delta concept could be worked out to only send the
> changes. This could be a side benefit of the change history mechanism.
>
> I don't know enough about Zope internals to know if this is even
> feasable.

Not sure whether this is relevant in this context:
I've been day-dreaming with a college to use a Subversion
repository as a storage backend for some (text based) content
types but never even started implementing this.

What I did intead was writing a custom field type that kind of
gets its default from a subversion repository (or some other web site)
but can be customized later (but no writing back; my usecase at the
time was to provide some default content for a help section on all
of our sites that can easily be kept in sync but at the same time
can easily be customized at a site if need be). Unfortunately this
was never finished (and therefore never deployed) but the code still
lives in ATExtensions

   http://svn.plone.org/view/archetypes/ATExtensions/trunk/

(look for everythingthat's related to 'remotetext')

I think the main message here is: if you need to deal with
versioning/branching/merging/conflict resolution etc use
a tool that does this already instead of reinventing the wheel.
I don't see why this shouldn't be possible for Plone content
as well.

Just my 2 cents.

Raphael



_______________________________________________
NGO mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ngo
Martin Aspeli-2

Re: Plone NGO Mailing List Christian Aid go for Microsoft over OpenSource

Reply Threaded More More options
Print post
Permalink

Raphael Ritz wrote:
Ungerleider, Jack schrieb:

[..]

>
> Then main issue is conflict resolution. If that can be worked out so
> that no content is lost that would be a killer option. Of course since
> we're talk low speed connections in most cases it would work even better
> if some sort of delta concept could be worked out to only send the
> changes. This could be a side benefit of the change history mechanism.
>
> I don't know enough about Zope internals to know if this is even
> feasable.

Not sure whether this is relevant in this context:
I've been day-dreaming with a college to use a Subversion
repository as a storage backend for some (text based) content
types but never even started implementing this.

What I did intead was writing a custom field type that kind of
gets its default from a subversion repository (or some other web site)
but can be customized later (but no writing back; my usecase at the
time was to provide some default content for a help section on all
of our sites that can easily be kept in sync but at the same time
can easily be customized at a site if need be). Unfortunately this
was never finished (and therefore never deployed) but the code still
lives in ATExtensions

   http://svn.plone.org/view/archetypes/ATExtensions/trunk/

(look for everythingthat's related to 'remotetext')

I think the main message here is: if you need to deal with
versioning/branching/merging/conflict resolution etc use
a tool that does this already instead of reinventing the wheel.
I don't see why this shouldn't be possible for Plone content
as well.
Kapil has some very cool code that makes Subversion repositories look nicer in Python code. He showed some examples or basically running a small CMS in Zope 3 where content was stored in svn. The code is in the objectrealms repo.

Martin