Python 2.6.3 and setuptools incompatibility

[Hanno Schlichting-4]

Hi there.

As you might have seen from the Twitter/Blogosphere Python 2.6.3 has
been released and is incompatible with setuptools [1].

Since Plone depends on buildout / setuptools in a major way, this
affects us quite badly. None of our standard ways of installing Plone
3.2+ will work anymore with Python 2.6.3.

I think we need to provide some news announcement about this, document
it on plone.org and come up with a plan to resolve this.

The "simple" approach to this is to follow Tarek's advice and switch
to distribute [2]. Note that I'm biased here, since I'm involved in
the distribute project myself.

We cannot undo the Python release nor is it possible to fix setuptools
(otherwise there wouldn't be a fork). So I'm left to believe that
switching to distribute actually is our only real option right now.

What do others think?

Hanno

[1] http://tarekziade.wordpress.com/2009/10/03/python-2-6-3-and-distribute/
[2] http://pypi.python.org/pypi/distribute

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[Hanno Schlichting-4]

Gah! It's too late and I'm hallucinating.

You can tell, that I only work on Plone 4.0 /  trunk these days ;)

Obviously Python 2.4 and therefor Plone 3.x isn't affected by this. So
this is much lower urgency. Still we need to think of something for
Plone 4.0.

Sorry,
Hanno

On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 11:57 PM, Hanno Schlichting <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi there.
>
> As you might have seen from the Twitter/Blogosphere Python 2.6.3 has
> been released and is incompatible with setuptools [1].
>
> Since Plone depends on buildout / setuptools in a major way, this
> affects us quite badly. None of our standard ways of installing Plone
> 3.2+ will work anymore with Python 2.6.3.
>
> I think we need to provide some news announcement about this, document
> it on plone.org and come up with a plan to resolve this.
>
> The "simple" approach to this is to follow Tarek's advice and switch
> to distribute [2]. Note that I'm biased here, since I'm involved in
> the distribute project myself.
>
> We cannot undo the Python release nor is it possible to fix setuptools
> (otherwise there wouldn't be a fork). So I'm left to believe that
> switching to distribute actually is our only real option right now.
>
> What do others think?
>
> Hanno
>
> [1] http://tarekziade.wordpress.com/2009/10/03/python-2-6-3-and-distribute/
> [2] http://pypi.python.org/pypi/distribute
>

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[Eric Steele (esteele)]

Consider me a +1 for moving to Distribute.

Eric

On Oct 3, 2009, at 6:33 PM, Hanno Schlichting wrote:

> Gah! It's too late and I'm hallucinating.
>
> You can tell, that I only work on Plone 4.0 /  trunk these days ;)
>
> Obviously Python 2.4 and therefor Plone 3.x isn't affected by this. So
> this is much lower urgency. Still we need to think of something for
> Plone 4.0.
>
> Sorry,
> Hanno
>
> On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 11:57 PM, Hanno Schlichting  
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi there.
>>
>> As you might have seen from the Twitter/Blogosphere Python 2.6.3 has
>> been released and is incompatible with setuptools [1].
>>
>> Since Plone depends on buildout / setuptools in a major way, this
>> affects us quite badly. None of our standard ways of installing Plone
>> 3.2+ will work anymore with Python 2.6.3.
>>
>> I think we need to provide some news announcement about this,  
>> document
>> it on plone.org and come up with a plan to resolve this.
>>
>> The "simple" approach to this is to follow Tarek's advice and switch
>> to distribute [2]. Note that I'm biased here, since I'm involved in
>> the distribute project myself.
>>
>> We cannot undo the Python release nor is it possible to fix  
>> setuptools
>> (otherwise there wouldn't be a fork). So I'm left to believe that
>> switching to distribute actually is our only real option right now.
>>
>> What do others think?
>>
>> Hanno
>>
>> [1] http://tarekziade.wordpress.com/2009/10/03/python-2-6-3-and-distribute/
>> [2] http://pypi.python.org/pypi/distribute
>>
>
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[Martin Aspeli]

Eric Steele wrote:
> Consider me a +1 for moving to Distribute.

+1 from me as well.

We could change all the install_requires = ['setuptols', ...] to be
'Distribute' instead and we should be done, right?

Martin

--
Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book


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[Hanno Schlichting-4]

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 6:38 AM, Martin Aspeli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Eric Steele wrote:
>> Consider me a +1 for moving to Distribute.
>
> +1 from me as well.
>
> We could change all the install_requires = ['setuptols', ...] to be
> 'Distribute' instead and we should be done, right?

It's not quite as easy as this.

We don't control a large number of packages that Plone consists of and
cannot change them. While we can argue about things with the
maintainers of various Zope packages, we have external dependencies
with little to no control like pytz or feedparser.

Luckily distribute handles this kind of situation and fakes the
setuptools egg information. So once you install distribute it claims
to be both distribute and setuptools.

The real problem is the whole bootstrapping process in zc.buildout.
Both the bootstrap.py and "buildout init" command will download the
real setuptools or take the real thing from your shared egg cache.
Tarek made some first attempt at a modified bootstrap.py file which
uses distribute instead. We would have to replace all bootstrap.py
files with this or preferably just point to a location on the web, as
it's likely this file will change over time. This still doesn't help
with using the "buildout init" command, though.

It would be much easier for us if we could convince zc.buildout to
switch itself to distribute - I have no idea how likely this would be.
I guess if we have a general consensus, that is in favor of switching
to distribute, we should discuss this on zope-dev and distutils-sig
and try to convince the others to follow the switch.

This will all still create confusion, documentation problems and
interesting interactions with system-wide setuptools installations or
system packages of setuptools (one Linux distribution already changed
their setuptools package to actually contain the distribute code ...).

Hanno

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[Gilles Lenfant]

Le 4 oct. 09 à 06:38, Martin Aspeli a écrit :

> Eric Steele wrote:
>> Consider me a +1 for moving to Distribute.
>
> +1 from me as well.
>

Hi,

Some news (not that fresh) from the setuptools / distribute war...

http://tarekziade.wordpress.com/2009/10/10/distribute-0-6-4-released-zc-buildout-support/

Setting up Plone 4 with macports Python 2.6.3 is just :

$ svn co svn co https://svn.plone.org/svn/plone/buildouts/plone-coredev/branches/4.0 
  somewhere
$ cd somewhere
$ rm bootstrap.py
$ wget http://nightly.ziade.org/bootstrap.py
$ python bootstrap.py
$ bin/buildout

Rocks and grooves...

This does not need to change "setuptools"  requirements in eggs since  
distribute "clones" completely setuptools, including its namespace.

In addition, distribute does not scream if you have a subversion  
client newer than 1.4.x. Yeah.

Opinions ?

Many thanks to Tarek again...

> We could change all the install_requires = ['setuptols', ...] to be
> 'Distribute' instead and we should be done, right?
>
> Martin
>
> --
> Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
> want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book
>
>
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> your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and  
> stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register  
> now!
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[Wichert Akkerman]

On 10/13/09 17:34 , Gilles Lenfant wrote:

> Le 4 oct. 09 à 06:38, Martin Aspeli a écrit :
>
>> Eric Steele wrote:
>>> Consider me a +1 for moving to Distribute.
>>
>> +1 from me as well.
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> Some news (not that fresh) from the setuptools / distribute war...
>
> http://tarekziade.wordpress.com/2009/10/10/distribute-0-6-4-released-zc-buildout-support/
>
> Setting up Plone 4 with macports Python 2.6.3 is just :
>
> $ svn co svn co https://svn.plone.org/svn/plone/buildouts/plone-coredev/branches/4.0
>    somewhere
> $ cd somewhere
> $ rm bootstrap.py
> $ wget http://nightly.ziade.org/bootstrap.py
> $ python bootstrap.py
> $ bin/buildout
>
> Rocks and grooves...
>
> This does not need to change "setuptools"  requirements in eggs since
> distribute "clones" completely setuptools, including its namespace.
>
> In addition, distribute does not scream if you have a subversion
> client newer than 1.4.x. Yeah.
>
> Opinions ?

-1

People should make the choice to use distribute instead of setuptools
themselves. I do not feel comfortable with us making that choice for them.

As it happens setuptools 0.6c10 is about to be released which fixes the
various nasty problems Hanno mentioned, so there is no need anymore for
us to force people to move to distribute.

Wichert.

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[Hanno Schlichting-4]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Wichert Akkerman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> People should make the choice to use distribute instead of setuptools
> themselves. I do not feel comfortable with us making that choice for them.

We do need to provide people with one default choice. The unified
installers need to ship one bootstrap file, the ZopeSkel paster
templates need to provide one option, the various core development
buildout need to use one version. Effectively we will need to make a
choice for our users. Of course the developers who know enough about
the differences between the two, will be able to choose the other
option.

> As it happens setuptools 0.6c10 is about to be released which fixes the
> various nasty problems Hanno mentioned, so there is no need anymore for
> us to force people to move to distribute.

If that release actually will be made is yet to be seen. If it will be
made the decision isn't as simple anymore and can be decided based on
the technical merits of one or the other alone. Instead it's about the
much more unclear question of which project is better maintained, is
more promising to get updated in time and might deliver new features
and improvements that will actually benefit us.

I for one trust the community project called distribute much more on
the social metric, compared to setuptools being a one person project.
Looking at the community response distribute got, it seems to be
endorsed by the Python core developers and has already found adoption
across diverse communities. Not the least have some OS distributions
started to release the distribute codebase under the setuptools brand.

>From my perspective Plone 4.0 switching to Python 2.6 gives us a save
and easy option to switch to distribute without getting into too many
problems with existing installations. A large part of Plone users will
set up Python 2.6 specifically for Plone 4 and start with a
setuptools-free environment. This gives us some safety and prevents
side-effects on running Python 2.4 / Plone 3.x environments.

Hanno

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[Steve McMahon]

Developers doing things from scratch may make their own choices, but what we include in the installers should reflect our community opinion on what will be the most successful configuration for the most users.

Right now, I'd very much like to go with distribute for the Plone 4 installers. Setuptools has been just one problem after another for too long.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Wichert Akkerman <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 10/13/09 17:34 , Gilles Lenfant wrote:
> Le 4 oct. 09 à 06:38, Martin Aspeli a écrit :
>
>> Eric Steele wrote:
>>> Consider me a +1 for moving to Distribute.
>>
>> +1 from me as well.
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> Some news (not that fresh) from the setuptools / distribute war...
>
> http://tarekziade.wordpress.com/2009/10/10/distribute-0-6-4-released-zc-buildout-support/
>
> Setting up Plone 4 with macports Python 2.6.3 is just :
>
> $ svn co svn co https://svn.plone.org/svn/plone/buildouts/plone-coredev/branches/4.0
>    somewhere
> $ cd somewhere
> $ rm bootstrap.py
> $ wget http://nightly.ziade.org/bootstrap.py
> $ python bootstrap.py
> $ bin/buildout
>
> Rocks and grooves...
>
> This does not need to change "setuptools"  requirements in eggs since
> distribute "clones" completely setuptools, including its namespace.
>
> In addition, distribute does not scream if you have a subversion
> client newer than 1.4.x. Yeah.
>
> Opinions ?

-1

People should make the choice to use distribute instead of setuptools
themselves. I do not feel comfortable with us making that choice for them.

As it happens setuptools 0.6c10 is about to be released which fixes the
various nasty problems Hanno mentioned, so there is no need anymore for
us to force people to move to distribute.

Wichert.

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[Alexander Limi]

+1. I trust Tarek and Hanno and the distribute devs way more than the others involved.

--
Alexander Limi · http://limi.net

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Steve McMahon <[hidden email]> wrote:

Developers doing things from scratch may make their own choices, but what we include in the installers should reflect our community opinion on what will be the most successful configuration for the most users.

Right now, I'd very much like to go with distribute for the Plone 4 installers. Setuptools has been just one problem after another for too long.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Wichert Akkerman <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 10/13/09 17:34 , Gilles Lenfant wrote:
> Le 4 oct. 09 à 06:38, Martin Aspeli a écrit :
>
>> Eric Steele wrote:
>>> Consider me a +1 for moving to Distribute.
>>
>> +1 from me as well.
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> Some news (not that fresh) from the setuptools / distribute war...
>
> http://tarekziade.wordpress.com/2009/10/10/distribute-0-6-4-released-zc-buildout-support/
>
> Setting up Plone 4 with macports Python 2.6.3 is just :
>
> $ svn co svn co https://svn.plone.org/svn/plone/buildouts/plone-coredev/branches/4.0
>    somewhere
> $ cd somewhere
> $ rm bootstrap.py
> $ wget http://nightly.ziade.org/bootstrap.py
> $ python bootstrap.py
> $ bin/buildout
>
> Rocks and grooves...
>
> This does not need to change "setuptools"  requirements in eggs since
> distribute "clones" completely setuptools, including its namespace.
>
> In addition, distribute does not scream if you have a subversion
> client newer than 1.4.x. Yeah.
>
> Opinions ?

-1

People should make the choice to use distribute instead of setuptools
themselves. I do not feel comfortable with us making that choice for them.

As it happens setuptools 0.6c10 is about to be released which fixes the
various nasty problems Hanno mentioned, so there is no need anymore for
us to force people to move to distribute.

Wichert.

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[Wichert Akkerman]

On 10/13/09 21:14 , Hanno Schlichting wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Wichert Akkerman<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> People should make the choice to use distribute instead of setuptools
>> themselves. I do not feel comfortable with us making that choice for them.
>
> We do need to provide people with one default choice. The unified
> installers need to ship one bootstrap file, the ZopeSkel paster
> templates need to provide one option, the various core development
> buildout need to use one version. Effectively we will need to make a
> choice for our users. Of course the developers who know enough about
> the differences between the two, will be able to choose the other
> option.

There was also a mention of depending on distribute instead of
setuptools in setup.py's install_requires. I think that is objectionable
and we should not do that; it would be taking all choice away.

I have no real preference for what installers should do. Perhaps there
should be a magic option for them to switch between the two until there
is a clear winner.

Wichert.


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[Hanno Schlichting-4]

On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Wichert Akkerman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> There was also a mention of depending on distribute instead of setuptools in
> setup.py's install_requires. I think that is objectionable and we should not
> do that; it would be taking all choice away.

That's indeed not required and would be a bad idea. It's all about the
bootstrap file, so this stays some form of "runtime" choice.

> I have no real preference for what installers should do. Perhaps there
> should be a magic option for them to switch between the two until there is a
> clear winner.

It seems Jim will add direct distribute support to zc.buildout in the
next days. So this will come down to what bootstrap file you use, with
both being available. But I'd still ship the "distribute bootstrap"
file under the name bootstrap.py, as everyone does "python2.6
bootstrap.py; bin/buildout" and should get our recommended default
option that way.

Hanno

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[Malthe Borch-2]

On 10/14/09 3:37 AM, Alexander Limi wrote:
> +1. I trust Tarek and Hanno and the distribute devs way more than the
> others involved.

Ditto.

Let's not be shy to embrace Distribute.

\malthe


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[Wichert Akkerman]

On 10/14/09 13:43 , Malthe Borch wrote:
> On 10/14/09 3:37 AM, Alexander Limi wrote:
>> +1. I trust Tarek and Hanno and the distribute devs way more than the
>> others involved.
>
> Ditto.
>
> Let's not be shy to embrace Distribute.

FWIW if we modify installers & ZopeSkel to switch to distribute we
should make a bit of PR noise about it in the python community.
Distribute is at a point where it can us all the noise it gets,
otherwise it may fizzle out.

Wichert.

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[Reinout van Rees]

On 2009-10-14, Wichert Akkerman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10/14/09 13:43 , Malthe Borch wrote:
>> On 10/14/09 3:37 AM, Alexander Limi wrote:
>>> +1. I trust Tarek and Hanno and the distribute devs way more than the
>>> others involved.
>>
>> Ditto.
>>
>> Let's not be shy to embrace Distribute.
>
> FWIW if we modify installers & ZopeSkel to switch to distribute we
> should make a bit of PR noise about it in the python community.
> Distribute is at a point where it can us all the noise it gets,
> otherwise it may fizzle out.

Yeah, I'll make noise on my blog once the 0.6.5 is out :-)

That release is just around the corner.  It contains a few small fixes to make
it a Good Buildout Citizen without even needing a change in zc.buildout.

Several combinations (new bootstrap, old/normal bootstrap, yes/no distribute
dependency) are humming along on my buildbot and all is well.  This is with a
development tgz of 0.6.5.


Reinout


--
Reinout van Rees - [hidden email] - http://reinout.vanrees.org
Software developer at http://www.thehealthagency.com
"Military engineers build missiles. Civil engineers build targets"


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developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
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