Private critique forums

[Cordilow]

When Nabble implements the private forum feature, I plan to make the Fantasy Critique forum private. This will make the stuff you post invisible to the public, but still visible to people who might want to critique your post.

I also plan to require that you make some posts in the other fantasy forums first: Fantasy (Writer Topics), and Fantasy (Reader Topics).

Let me know if you want to be a member. If you've posted at least three times in the aforementioned forums—and I will be able to tell—I'll probably add you.

I anticipate that this change will attract more serious writers and regular users to the group. This will also filter out all those people who do nothing but post a single item to be critiqued (and then never show up again).

Email me if you still want a separate public critique forum to exist here. Feel free to tell me why, as well.

[aquarious]

Hi Cordilow,

     This private forum does sound like a great idea.  I'd like to be signed up!  :-)  As you may have noticed, I am having difficulty drawing attention to my posts and this seems like it may help.  Even though I have published, I still would greatly appreciate feedback on what I write, especially from you as you seem to really know what you are doing as far as writing is concerned. However, I would like to see the public forum stay put as it is a great way to attract new writers and critics.  Perhaps you could set up an orientation of sorts for those who would like to "graduate" to the private forum?  For instance, if one were to post, lets say, 15 serious critiques of other writings then a formal inviation could be offered to join the private site.  Keeping the public site could also help to keep and generate new interest in a particular writer.  Let me know what you think.  :-)  And if there is anything I can do to help, please let me know!

                                                                    Aquarious

[Cordilow]

Thanks for your feedback. It helps. I've made some comments below. Feel free to let me know what you think about the comments, and we can discuss more.

aquarious wrote:

This private forum does sound like a great idea.  I'd like to be signed up!  :-)  As you may have noticed, I am having difficulty drawing attention to my posts and this seems like it may help. . . .

All right, I'll be sure to add you.

aquarious wrote:

Perhaps you could set up an orientation of sorts for those who would like to "graduate" to the private forum?  For instance, if one were to post, lets say, 15 serious critiques of other writings then a formal inviation could be offered to join the private site.  Keeping the public site could also help to keep and generate new interest in a particular writer.  Let me know what you think.  :-)  And if there is anything I can do to help, please let me know!

I do agree, to some extent, that we should have a public forum as well (anyone could make one, anyway, if we didn't). However, I don't want to make critiquing on the public forum a major part of the requirements for entering the private one. 15 serious critiques is a high amount, too. I don't know that I've even done that many here, yet (maybe I have, but I don't know; it would take a while to find out). Plus, it would be difficult to track them all, even for the person doing them, as I've just discovered for myself. I think a few quality posts in the other forums would be sufficient (although I think the public critique forum posts, as long as the posts are critiques, rather than content to be critiqued, will also count).

I don't want to offer for anyone to join the private site. I want them to request to join. Otherwise, they might never post in the private site, because of apathy. I want them to be excited enough about it to come to me to join.

Are you familiar with Critters.org? They have a widely-used mailing list that is essentially much like how I want my critique forum to be. However, there are some important differences I want to have (or else people might as well use Critters):
1) It's a forum—not a mailing list
2) No weekly/monthly quota of critiques to fulfill
3) There will be requirements to enter (anyone can join Critters, though they do have to do critiques frequently)
4) I don't want tons of rules for people who have already entered. Maybe some general easy to follow ones, though: like, post more critiques than stuff to be critiqued, although I would count critiques in the public forum on this, as well
5) This is only for the fantasy genre (not all speculative fiction)—although you can do cross genres that include fantasy, as well as things that are ambiguous as to whether they are fantasy or not (such as Star Wars, or a story about a dream that includes fantasy elements)
. . .

Having said that, the writers forum is my main priority. Having healthy levels of activity there is much more important than in any critique forum (because that's probably where people who will actually do critiques, and good ones, will want to post the most). Plus, if you're going to do critiques, it's good discuss and learn some basic principles first, as well as ask questions about writing and/or publishing.

The readers forum isn't quite as high on the priority list, but it also has a lot of good potential for writers.

[Cordilow]

Actually, I think you have a point about inviting people.

It's not a huge deal if people never post who are invited. It shouldn't hurt the forum, anyway. It is very possible they would post. Inviting them would let them know about it, at least.

[aquarious]

Hi Again, Cordilow!

     You have some very interesting thoughts regarding the forum.  :-)  I do agree that a 15 posted critiques minimum is excessive.  Still, if there is someone that is posting an average or above average number of critiques on the public site then it would make sense that their interest is already pre-established and that they will most likely continue their posting habits on the private site (if they were to be offered an invitation).  In this regard, you may want a loose (as opposed to ridgid) set of guidelines as far as who is to be offered an exclusive invitation.  
     I love your idea about not having a required number of critiques to be completed in order to be involved with the forum.  It seems that such an idea would give rise to a large number of poorly written and/or ambiguous critiques as the critic would probably just be writing them to get their quota and not because they are interested in the post or in genuinely helping the poster out.  Critiques should be given freely and fully from the head/heart.
     It sounds like a good idea to have some basic ground rules for the forum.  Participants should really be in some way required to give feedback if they wish to have feedback granted to them regarding their posts.  You may also want to consider additional rules such as: no hate speech, keep criticism constructive, etc.
     Starting the forum site as a Fantasy-Only critique site does sound like a good start.  This will surely attract like-minds and should thus keep and hold the interest of all participants with regards to writing critiques.  This is one decision you may want to play by ear, however.  Restricting the genre too severly may potentially stifle the forum and inadvertantly decrease the interest in the site.  So, I'm glad to hear that you are willing to accept pieces that may skirt the line with regards to fantasy.
     Overall, this sounds like it would be a great place for serious writers to come and discuss the craft!  Would it be all right if I were to recommend someone for the private site?  Anyway, I hope this helps!  Please feel free to contact me again with more thoughts!  :-)

                                                             Aquarious

[Cordilow]

aquarious wrote:

You have some very interesting thoughts regarding the forum.

Thanks! It's good to get feedback.

aquarious wrote:

Would it be all right if I were to recommend someone for the private site?

Certainly.

aquarious wrote:

In this regard, you may want a loose (as opposed to ridgid) set of guidelines as far as who is to be offered an exclusive invitation.

As long as it is apparent that they would contribute to the growth and quality of the forum, it should be fine. Playing this by ear I think it a good idea, as I think you said.

aquarious wrote:

     It sounds like a good idea to have some basic ground rules for the forum.  Participants should really be in some way required to give feedback if they wish to have feedback granted to them regarding their posts.  You may also want to consider additional rules such as: no hate speech, keep criticism constructive, etc.

Yes—this is true.

aquarious wrote:

Starting the forum site as a Fantasy-Only critique site does sound like a good start.  This will surely attract like-minds and should thus keep and hold the interest of all participants with regards to writing critiques.  This is one decision you may want to play by ear, however.  Restricting the genre too severly may potentially stifle the forum and inadvertantly decrease the interest in the site.  So, I'm glad to hear that you are willing to accept pieces that may skirt the line with regards to fantasy.

I once participated in a mailing list called The Fantasy Writer's Emailing List or something like that. There were a lot of professional writers on it (though most of them weren't ones I had heard of until then—but I've heard of some since). Though it had fantasy in the name, it was essentially a place for speculative fiction (just as with Critters.org). When I first started the forums at Nabble [Were you here when we were at Nabble 1?] I had separate forums for every genre, instead of just a fantasy forum. Since I had separate ones, I made sure to have it so things were placed in the proper forum according to their genres. However, having so many separate forums, even though they met up at a parent for fiction in general, prevented the forums from becoming very personable. However, now that the fantasy forum is separate, and the others are, well, gone, we can consider other alternatives.

"What alternatives?" You might ask. Well, consider how people are allowed to have off-topic discussion. We could have them do something similar—i.e. put (genre) in parenthesis in the subject (although this wouldn't work in the public forum, since public people don't always read the rules; we can make sure people read them before admitting them into the private forum). Or, we could have a sub-forum designed for genres that don't fit. I think I like this latter idea better.

[aquarious]

Hello Again!

     As far as recommending someone for the private site, I would like to recommend HobbitStealer.  She is a phenomenol writer and has shown some hard-core dedication to the craft.  I believe she knows a good deal more about writing than she lets her humble self admit, but I think she would be a great addition to the forum.  If you agree, I will let you offer her membership since you are ultimately in charge.  :-)
     I really like your idea regarding sub-forums.  It's easy to see how having so many different forums (one per genre) could get impersonal as attention becomes spread too thin over too wide an area.  It's a great idea, though, to have a sub-forum for all of the entries that don't quite fit into the fantasy genre.  Really, the assignment of a genre to a particular piece of work can be subjective.  One may read a novel and say that it is action/adventure while another person may read it and call it a suspense story.  Actually, so many pieces of work fall into more than one category.  What one person may call fantasy, may not be perceived as such by another.  Did you know that Harper Lee wrote "To Kill A Mockingbird" as a simple love story.  Only, most readers interpreted it as one of the greatest literary stands against racism ever to be written!  Interesting, no?
     Those who have been offered membership to this private forum should not only read the rules, but also agree to them.  Since this is an exclusive forum for the more serious of writers, I am not anticipating much rule-breaking behavior to take place.  Hopefully, those who join will have the maturity and tact to be able to actively and constructively participate in the site.  One suggestion, what do you think about allowing participants to "nominate" a writer they know for membership?  This may be another way to grow the group further.  Carefully bringing in new people means the introduction of new views, new talent, new thoughts, new skills, etc. to the group as a whole.  It could be a situation where if one of us learns something new, then we all learn something new as a collective group.  Let me know your thoughts!

                                           Aquarious

[Cordilow]

aquarious wrote:

. . . I would like to recommend HobbitStealer.

HobbitStealer would be a fine candidate, from what I've observed (though I don't remember the details much, off-hand). I'll add her to the list if she's interested, and agrees to abide by the rules (which I note must be adapted for the things you mentioned). Feel free to talk with her about it, and point her to this if she needs proof that you have authority to invite her.

aquarious wrote:

One suggestion, what do you think about allowing participants to "nominate" a writer they know for membership?

Nominations sound good to me, although I don't intend it to be democratic, per se. I mean, a certain number of nominations alone doesn't guarantee it (i.e. if they are good writers, but break the rules all the time, or cause other problems . . . stuff like that). Well, I guess we could always add them, and if there are problems, drop them. Remember, we can always drop people from the private forum, if needed.

I wish to suggest a feature for Nabble, which would help us here. That is to make it so I can allow people to add others as members of a private forum, without making them forum owners, as the latter requires a lot more trust. I've been through enough situations where someone I've chosen to lead with me has taken over the group and made me appear as if I were a counselor to the members—I'd just rather keep it to myself and people I know rather well whom I know for sure I can trust (if/when I find them). But then, it's always good to have a backup in case I'm gone for a long period, if I'm busy a lot, or for the day I die.

I don't want to add any co-owners for a while, though—eventually, though. I want to make sure I know I would work well with the people I add, first.

I do, however, wants lots of people to be able to add members themselves—about as soon as the private forums come out.

aquarious wrote:

What one person may call fantasy, may not be perceived as such by another.

As far as what I would consider fantasy for the normal forum goes, I would say anything that has at least one of the following attributes:
* Supernatural elements
* Magic
* Something that 'might' be magical, or supernatural
* Implied supernatural or magical elements (i.e. if the story contains dragons without a real-world explanation, but no magic—even though this 'might' be science fiction, it's acceptable here)
* It is speculative fiction, but the sub-genre is not obvious.
* It seems like fantasy, but is arguably science fiction. (i.e. the 'magic' system has a possible grounding in science)

aquarious wrote:

Did you know that Harper Lee wrote "To Kill A Mockingbird" as a simple love story.  Only, most readers interpreted it as one of the greatest literary stands against racism ever to be written!  Interesting, no?

Quite Interesting. Thanks for the info.

[aquarious]

     Thanks for allowing me to invite HobbitStealer!  I'll leave a note for her on her posting site.  :-)

     I do agree with you regarding nominations.  To me, it does not matter how talented a writer is; if they are snobbish, mean-spirited, condescending and/or in the habit of breaking rules, then (just my opinion) they do not deserve a private forum membership.  Ultimately, it is up to you to decide codes of conduct and such.  But me, I am a person that is easy to get along with.  With a nice beta personality and a strong dose of humility coursing through my thoughts, I won't cause you any troubles!  :-)  I am, however, very sorry to hear that your trust has been abused so much.  Darn those alpha's!  I know all too well how much it hurts to get your toes crunched on over and over, so don't worry about me doing the same.  I am very content to just be here and swap writing techniques and ideas with other writers.  Lead on, my Captain!
     The idea of allowing participants to add members themselves is a good one.  They may know their nominee much better than anyone else.  If it should not work out so well, then there is (like you said) always the option of revoking membership.  Still, I think that it is a great idea for you to be able to exponentially expand the group while still retaining ultimate control over the forum and how it is run.
     I also like your definition of "Fantasy".  It is loose enough to incoporate a great deal of varying stories, including most of the stories that I write.  :-)  Will you be posting this explanation as part of the official forum?  It may be a good idea to do so, as there will be little in the way of confusion as to what is thought of as "Fantasy" on the forum.  Mainly, I would do this for the benefit of those new to the writing world.

    Hope this helps!

                                             Aquarious

[Cordilow]

aquarious wrote:

Thanks for allowing me to invite HobbitStealer!

You're welcome.

aquarious wrote:

I also like your definition of "Fantasy".  It is loose enough to incoporate a great deal of varying stories, including most of the stories that I write.  :-)  Will you be posting this explanation as part of the official forum?  It may be a good idea to do so, as there will be little in the way of confusion as to what is thought of as "Fantasy" on the forum.  Mainly, I would do this for the benefit of those new to the writing world.

Thanks. :) Sounds like a plan. So, should we wait until the private forum, or start with it on the public forum? I think I'll do that for now (update the current forum rules), but tell me if you think it would be a good idea to undo the changes I do until we get the private forums.

Thanks again for all the feedback, and for being so proactive for the forums!

On another note, I think one of the best things we'll have going for us in the private forum is word of mouth. Or people could recruit others. With the public one, there hasn't been much, if any recruiting, I think.

[Cordilow]

I'm just replying again so you'll know that I've moved this thread to Planned Changes, under Announcements. This forum allows for replies and postings.

[aquarious]

Hi Again!

     I really like some of the changes that you have made thusfar on this forum!  The bigger font and darker background are going to make it much easier for those who have vision issues to participate.  Since you have alreay begun making changes to the forum, I don't see any reason why you couldn't implement some rule changes now, (provided that they are not a drastically altered set of rules).  That way, those who get on the private site from the public site should already be acquainted with the rules with no re-introduction required.  Participants on the public site will already know what sort of conduct is expected on the private site.  Also, if there are any participants that don't agree with the rules on the public site then they know before-hand that they are probably not going to be a good match for the private site.
     Word of mouth and people recruiting their friends to join the site are probably going to be what launches the site the most. I think, too, that it helps that this is an "exclusive" forum open to only a "select" group of people.  A private forum carries with it a certain mystique and social intrigue that a readily public forum does not. In addition to placing links up on the forum to participant's websites, we could in turn request permission to advertise on their websites as well.  It would be a win-win situation for all.  It may be worthwhile, in that case, if I were to start my own profile on MySpace or on Facebook.  Those are two of the most dominant social networking sites that I know of...  Does this sound like a good idea?  The only thing is...I'm a little camera-shy!  It would be much more personable if I displayed pictures and such, but I really don't tend to photograph well.    Lol!  But then again, my writing would be the focus of my postings and not pictures...  Hmm...
     You're welcome!  I may be new to the whole forum scene, but I have found it to be most enjoyable!  I am a very intellectually-driven person by nature and love to have a good brain-storming session and other forms of intellectual conversation with other intellectual minds.  I have learned so very much from participating on your forum that I have been able to grow and flourish as a writer.  I am looking forward to participating in the private forum even more!  Thanks for giving all of us other writer's out there in cyber-space a chance to learn and grow from and with one another!

  :-)     :-)     :-)     :-)     :-)     :-)

                                                                Aquarious
     

[Cordilow]

aquarious wrote:

It may be worthwhile, in that case, if I were to start my own profile on MySpace or on Facebook.

That can be cool. I've actually tried this with a Facebook group for the fantasy forums back in the days of Nabble 1, right after I started them. I'm not sure how much it helped, but I'm sure at least a little. I'm currently not an admin for it, anymore, but I'm asking to be reinstated (the link to my forums is still there, heh, heh—it doesn't make sense for me not to be an admin while it is).

I'm not sure how effective MySpace is, though. You would probably know better than I.

I really like your link exchange idea. It's an old one, but it tends to work.

Well, I better get going. Thanks for the feedback on my other post.

Do well!

[Cordilow]

Nabble has implemented the private forum feature.

Now, I just need to decide how to do this.