P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

18 messages

P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

Reply Threaded

Hi all,
I am going to look at this bug. Any suggestions?

Thanks

Sam

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Martyn Shaw-2

Re: P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

Reply Threaded

EqualizationDialog::OnClear does not actually clear the custom curve,
perhaps it should.

Select a curve, modify it a little so that 'custom' get selected,
'Flat', reselect 'custom'. See, still there! (Quicker way to
demonstrate 'bug'.

HTH
Martyn

sam lewis wrote:

> Hi all,
> I am going to look at this bug. Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks
>
> Sam
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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sam lewis-2

Re: P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

Reply Threaded

I noticed that,at the beginning of EqualizationDialog::OnClear,
EnvelopeUpdated is called. And this function update custom curve
according to the change of envelop. So I think call this function at
the end of EqualizationDialog::OnClear might solve this problem.
Did I make any mistakes?

Thanks
Sam

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Martyn Shaw
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> EqualizationDialog::OnClear does not actually clear the custom curve,
> perhaps it should.
>
> Select a curve, modify it a little so that 'custom' get selected,
> 'Flat', reselect 'custom'. See, still there! (Quicker way to
> demonstrate 'bug'.
>
> HTH
> Martyn
>
> sam lewis wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> I am going to look at this bug. Any suggestions?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Sam
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
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>>
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Stevethefiddle

Re: P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

Reply Threaded

Is it a bug? The button says "flat", it does not say "clear custom".

The workaround to saving a "flat curve" is as simple as pressing the
flat button and setting at least one point on the "curve"(or pressing
the "flat" button twice).

I'm not sure why anyone would want to save a "flat curve";

1) Is "flat" a "curve"?

2) Applying a flat curve does nothing. It reminds me of the "anechoic
echo chamber" effect.

3) It's important that a "fix" does not prevent the user from switching
from the custom curve, to a saved (preset) curve and back to the custom
curve (for comparing a "tweaked" curve with a saved version).

A different small issue on the Equalizer; there is a small display
anomaly (I'm on Ubuntu 9.04 - not checked on other platforms). The words
"Length of Filter" are slightly higher than the words "Linear Frequency
Scale".

Steve D

On Wed, 2009-09-30 at 11:15 +0800, sam lewis wrote:

> I noticed that,at the beginning of EqualizationDialog::OnClear,
> EnvelopeUpdated is called. And this function update custom curve
> according to the change of envelop. So I think call this function at
> the end of EqualizationDialog::OnClear might solve this problem.
> Did I make any mistakes?
>
> Thanks
> Sam
>
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Martyn Shaw
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > EqualizationDialog::OnClear does not actually clear the custom curve,
> > perhaps it should.
> >
> > Select a curve, modify it a little so that 'custom' get selected,
> > 'Flat', reselect 'custom'. See, still there! (Quicker way to
> > demonstrate 'bug'.
> >
> > HTH
> > Martyn
> >
> > sam lewis wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >> I am going to look at this bug. Any suggestions?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> Sam
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> >> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> >> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> >> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
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> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
> >>
> >
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Gale (Audacity Team)

Re: P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

Reply Threaded

| From Steve <[hidden email]>
| Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:52:30 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

> Is it a bug? The button says "flat", it does not say "clear custom".
>
> The workaround to saving a "flat curve" is as simple as pressing the
> flat button and setting at least one point on the "curve"(or pressing
> the "flat" button twice).
>
> I'm not sure why anyone would want to save a "flat curve";
>
> 1) Is "flat" a "curve"?
>
> 2) Applying a flat curve does nothing. It reminds me of the "anechoic
> echo chamber" effect.
>
> 3) It's important that a "fix" does not prevent the user from switching
> from the custom curve, to a saved (preset) curve and back to the custom
> curve (for comparing a "tweaked" curve with a saved version).

Well, I've seen five "complaints" about this so thought I
had to record it at least so we can decide what to do
about it. I'm not sure the workarounds are that obvious,
and I think because people sense that pressing "Flat"
may really not be a "curve", they want the security of
saving it as a "curve".

If they try to do so now, I think you'll agree it really
could look like a bug (for example, you could be looking
at the RIAA preset, press Flat, Save it as "Flat", seems
fine ("Flat" shows in "Select curve" and the "flat curve"
shows in the graph). Click OK, go back into EQ and you
will see the last custom curve, click the Flat preset and
the graph does not change (Flat "curve" not saved).

Plus there is Martyn's point that pressing "Flat" shows
"Custom" then reselecting Custom shows something
else.

> A different small issue on the Equalizer; there is a small display
> anomaly (I'm on Ubuntu 9.04 - not checked on other platforms). The words
> "Length of Filter" are slightly higher than the words "Linear Frequency
> Scale".

Confirmed on Ubuntu 9.04 in CVS, but not a problem on
Windows XP.

Gale

> On Wed, 2009-09-30 at 11:15 +0800, sam lewis wrote:
> > I noticed that,at the beginning of EqualizationDialog::OnClear,
> > EnvelopeUpdated is called. And this function update custom curve
> > according to the change of envelop. So I think call this function at
> > the end of EqualizationDialog::OnClear might solve this problem.
> > Did I make any mistakes?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Sam
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Martyn Shaw
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > EqualizationDialog::OnClear does not actually clear the custom curve,
> > > perhaps it should.
> > >
> > > Select a curve, modify it a little so that 'custom' get selected,
> > > 'Flat', reselect 'custom'. See, still there! (Quicker way to
> > > demonstrate 'bug'.
> > >
> > > HTH
> > > Martyn
> > >
> > > sam lewis wrote:
> > >> Hi all,
> > >> I am going to look at this bug. Any suggestions?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks
> > >>
> > >> Sam

Martyn Shaw-2

Re: P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

Reply Threaded

Sam's fix is good, thanks Sam, so I committed.

I agree that a default 'flat' curve is both pointless, and pointless
;-), but if that's what people want...

And I'd say it's a curve of zero curvature!

TTFN
Martyn

Gale Andrews wrote:

> | From Steve <[hidden email]>
> | Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:52:30 +0100
> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve
>> Is it a bug? The button says "flat", it does not say "clear custom".
>>
>> The workaround to saving a "flat curve" is as simple as pressing the
>> flat button and setting at least one point on the "curve"(or pressing
>> the "flat" button twice).
>>
>> I'm not sure why anyone would want to save a "flat curve";
>>
>> 1) Is "flat" a "curve"?
>>
>> 2) Applying a flat curve does nothing. It reminds me of the "anechoic
>> echo chamber" effect.
>>
>> 3) It's important that a "fix" does not prevent the user from switching
>> from the custom curve, to a saved (preset) curve and back to the custom
>> curve (for comparing a "tweaked" curve with a saved version).
>
> Well, I've seen five "complaints" about this so thought I
> had to record it at least so we can decide what to do
> about it. I'm not sure the workarounds are that obvious,
> and I think because people sense that pressing "Flat"
> may really not be a "curve", they want the security of
> saving it as a "curve".
>
> If they try to do so now, I think you'll agree it really
> could look like a bug (for example, you could be looking
> at the RIAA preset, press Flat, Save it as "Flat", seems
> fine ("Flat" shows in "Select curve" and the "flat curve"
> shows in the graph). Click OK, go back into EQ and you
> will see the last custom curve, click the Flat preset and
> the graph does not change (Flat "curve" not saved).
>
> Plus there is Martyn's point that pressing "Flat" shows
> "Custom" then reselecting Custom shows something
> else.
>
>
>> A different small issue on the Equalizer; there is a small display
>> anomaly (I'm on Ubuntu 9.04 - not checked on other platforms). The words
>> "Length of Filter" are slightly higher than the words "Linear Frequency
>> Scale".
>
> Confirmed on Ubuntu 9.04 in CVS, but not a problem on
> Windows XP.
>
>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>
>
>> On Wed, 2009-09-30 at 11:15 +0800, sam lewis wrote:
>>> I noticed that,at the beginning of EqualizationDialog::OnClear,
>>> EnvelopeUpdated is called. And this function update custom curve
>>> according to the change of envelop. So I think call this function at
>>> the end of EqualizationDialog::OnClear might solve this problem.
>>> Did I make any mistakes?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Sam
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Martyn Shaw
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> EqualizationDialog::OnClear does not actually clear the custom curve,
>>>> perhaps it should.
>>>>
>>>> Select a curve, modify it a little so that 'custom' get selected,
>>>> 'Flat', reselect 'custom'. See, still there! (Quicker way to
>>>> demonstrate 'bug'.
>>>>
>>>> HTH
>>>> Martyn
>>>>
>>>> sam lewis wrote:
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>> I am going to look at this bug. Any suggestions?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Sam
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
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>

Vaughan Johnson

Re: P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

Reply Threaded

It has a point in that if you want to just start over with something
completely different, it saves you moving lots of points. Rather than
the button, make it just another predefined curve and get rid of the button?

Martyn Shaw wrote:

> Sam's fix is good, thanks Sam, so I committed.
>
> I agree that a default 'flat' curve is both pointless, and pointless
> ;-), but if that's what people want...
>
> And I'd say it's a curve of zero curvature!
>
> TTFN
> Martyn
>
> Gale Andrews wrote:
>
>> | From Steve <[hidden email]>
>> | Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:52:30 +0100
>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve
>>
>>> Is it a bug? The button says "flat", it does not say "clear custom".
>>>
>>> The workaround to saving a "flat curve" is as simple as pressing the
>>> flat button and setting at least one point on the "curve"(or pressing
>>> the "flat" button twice).
>>>
>>> I'm not sure why anyone would want to save a "flat curve";
>>>
>>> 1) Is "flat" a "curve"?
>>>
>>> 2) Applying a flat curve does nothing. It reminds me of the "anechoic
>>> echo chamber" effect.
>>>
>>> 3) It's important that a "fix" does not prevent the user from switching
>>> from the custom curve, to a saved (preset) curve and back to the custom
>>> curve (for comparing a "tweaked" curve with a saved version).
>>>
>> Well, I've seen five "complaints" about this so thought I
>> had to record it at least so we can decide what to do
>> about it. I'm not sure the workarounds are that obvious,
>> and I think because people sense that pressing "Flat"
>> may really not be a "curve", they want the security of
>> saving it as a "curve".
>>
>> If they try to do so now, I think you'll agree it really
>> could look like a bug (for example, you could be looking
>> at the RIAA preset, press Flat, Save it as "Flat", seems
>> fine ("Flat" shows in "Select curve" and the "flat curve"
>> shows in the graph). Click OK, go back into EQ and you
>> will see the last custom curve, click the Flat preset and
>> the graph does not change (Flat "curve" not saved).
>>
>> Plus there is Martyn's point that pressing "Flat" shows
>> "Custom" then reselecting Custom shows something
>> else.
>>
>>
>>
>>> A different small issue on the Equalizer; there is a small display
>>> anomaly (I'm on Ubuntu 9.04 - not checked on other platforms). The words
>>> "Length of Filter" are slightly higher than the words "Linear Frequency
>>> Scale".
>>>
>> Confirmed on Ubuntu 9.04 in CVS, but not a problem on
>> Windows XP.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gale
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Wed, 2009-09-30 at 11:15 +0800, sam lewis wrote:
>>>
>>>> I noticed that,at the beginning of EqualizationDialog::OnClear,
>>>> EnvelopeUpdated is called. And this function update custom curve
>>>> according to the change of envelop. So I think call this function at
>>>> the end of EqualizationDialog::OnClear might solve this problem.
>>>> Did I make any mistakes?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Sam
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Martyn Shaw
>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> EqualizationDialog::OnClear does not actually clear the custom curve,
>>>>> perhaps it should.
>>>>>
>>>>> Select a curve, modify it a little so that 'custom' get selected,
>>>>> 'Flat', reselect 'custom'. See, still there! (Quicker way to
>>>>> demonstrate 'bug'.
>>>>>
>>>>> HTH
>>>>> Martyn
>>>>>
>>>>> sam lewis wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>> I am going to look at this bug. Any suggestions?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>
>>
>
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Martyn Shaw-2

Re: P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

Reply Threaded

Hi

I disagree about getting rid of the 'flat' button and having a default
curve instead, for many reasons (which I think you'll agree with).

And I've used this thread (below) to expand on some ideas for EQ
curves handling, maybe not the best place.

Many people will probably want to start off at 'flat' and build
something from there, so the button is useful.

People should be able to remove the default curves and install their
own, without losing the ability to 'flat' and start again. This can
be done by replacing EQCurves.xml in C:\Documents and
Settings\Martyn\Application Data\Audacity (or wherever), so we need
the button.

The default curves are, mostly, not very useful I feel, unless you
have a record player system that has no default EQ and play/record old
records with unusual EQ. Most record player systems these days will
have RIAA built in, so in this (rather specialist) case of people
digitising old records with a modern record playing system I guess we
really need an 'inverse RIAA' in the default list, or (better) a means
(button) to 'invert' any curve (which is, I believe, on the 'request'
list but I have never got around to doing it, but would be good). (I
also have an idea to generate an EQ curve from a spectrum analysis,
but that should probably be a plug-in that I haven't even started.)

I would like it if users would distribute their own EQ curves for
various situations, so that other users could just add them to
EQCurves.xml if they wanted them, but I believe that I have been told
that this would be too complicated for general users. There are other
solutions, such as users getting an EQ file from another user, putting
it in "C:\Documents and Settings\Martyn\Application Data\Audacity" and
then us searching for parseable files there), but that must be
post-2.0, I guess. I imagine a link in the EQ taking a user to a web
site where people can share EQ curves/files easily. Maybe there are
some standards already out-there that I am not aware of for the format
of these files. If not, maybe we can set one and call it ECSS (EQ
Curve Sharing System) (pronounced 'Ex').

I should stop now, since I probably don't have any readers. Let me
know if you are interested in developing such a thing, or if I'm off-beam.

TTFN
Martyn

Vaughan Johnson wrote:

> It has a point in that if you want to just start over with something
> completely different, it saves you moving lots of points. Rather than
> the button, make it just another predefined curve and get rid of the
> button?
>
> Martyn Shaw wrote:
>> Sam's fix is good, thanks Sam, so I committed.
>>
>> I agree that a default 'flat' curve is both pointless, and pointless
>> ;-), but if that's what people want...
>>
>> And I'd say it's a curve of zero curvature!
>>
>> TTFN
>> Martyn
>>
>> Gale Andrews wrote:
>>
>>> | From Steve <[hidden email]> | Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:52:30
>>> +0100
>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve
>>>
>>>> Is it a bug? The button says "flat", it does not say "clear custom".
>>>>
>>>> The workaround to saving a "flat curve" is as simple as pressing the
>>>> flat button and setting at least one point on the "curve"(or pressing
>>>> the "flat" button twice).
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure why anyone would want to save a "flat curve";
>>>>
>>>> 1) Is "flat" a "curve"?
>>>>
>>>> 2) Applying a flat curve does nothing. It reminds me of the "anechoic
>>>> echo chamber" effect.
>>>>
>>>> 3) It's important that a "fix" does not prevent the user from switching
>>>> from the custom curve, to a saved (preset) curve and back to the custom
>>>> curve (for comparing a "tweaked" curve with a saved version).
>>>>
>>> Well, I've seen five "complaints" about this so thought I
>>> had to record it at least so we can decide what to do
>>> about it. I'm not sure the workarounds are that obvious,
>>> and I think because people sense that pressing "Flat" may really not
>>> be a "curve", they want the security of saving it as a "curve".
>>>
>>> If they try to do so now, I think you'll agree it really could look
>>> like a bug (for example, you could be looking at the RIAA preset,
>>> press Flat, Save it as "Flat", seems fine ("Flat" shows in "Select
>>> curve" and the "flat curve"
>>> shows in the graph). Click OK, go back into EQ and you
>>> will see the last custom curve, click the Flat preset and the graph
>>> does not change (Flat "curve" not saved).
>>> Plus there is Martyn's point that pressing "Flat" shows
>>> "Custom" then reselecting Custom shows something else.
>>>
>>>
>>>> A different small issue on the Equalizer; there is a small display
>>>> anomaly (I'm on Ubuntu 9.04 - not checked on other platforms). The
>>>> words
>>>> "Length of Filter" are slightly higher than the words "Linear Frequency
>>>> Scale".
>>>>
>>> Confirmed on Ubuntu 9.04 in CVS, but not a problem on Windows XP.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gale
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 2009-09-30 at 11:15 +0800, sam lewis wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I noticed that,at the beginning of EqualizationDialog::OnClear,
>>>>> EnvelopeUpdated is called. And this function update custom curve
>>>>> according to the change of envelop. So I think call this function at
>>>>> the end of EqualizationDialog::OnClear might solve this problem.
>>>>> Did I make any mistakes?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Sam
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Martyn Shaw
>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> EqualizationDialog::OnClear does not actually clear the custom curve,
>>>>>> perhaps it should.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Select a curve, modify it a little so that 'custom' get selected,
>>>>>> 'Flat', reselect 'custom'. See, still there! (Quicker way to
>>>>>> demonstrate 'bug'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>> Martyn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sam lewis wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>> I am going to look at this bug. Any suggestions?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
>>> stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009.
>>> Register now!
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
>> stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009.
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>>
>>
>

Ed Musgrove

Re: P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

Reply Threaded

EQ curves are important to me. Perhaps the "Flat" button should read "Flatten". Sharing EQ curves might make sense, but in real life my curve (processor/speaker/room dependant) would rarely match anyone else's curve.
-Ed Musgrove

----- Original Message ----
From: Martyn Shaw [hidden email]

I should stop now, since I probably don't have any readers. Let me
know if you are interested in developing such a thing, or if I'm off-beam.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Stevethefiddle

Re: P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Martyn Shaw-2

The fix works perfectly here (Ubuntu 9.04).

There have been several requests on the forum for the ability to
import/export Eq curves and I notice that it is also on the Features
Request page, (albeit with a mere 3 votes)
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Feature_Requests#Other_Improvements_to_Effects

While it is true that a processor/speaker/room dependant curve is
unlikely to match someone else's requirements, there are situations
where importing/exporting curves would be useful.

Example - I record someone playing the pub piano on my Zoom H2 recorder
and make a nice curve to Eq it to perfection. I probably don't want that
(and 1000 other curves) in my list of pre-sets all the time, but if I
can put it onto a disk with my backup raw recordings, then I have it in
the event that I want it again.

Example - "Hey Dad, I'm trying to Eq this track and can't get it quite
right. Can you give me a hand with it - here's a short sample."
"Sure thing Son. Try this Eq curve."

Example - "I don't want my Eq pre-set list cluttered with all those RIAA
type curves, but I'd rather not loose them forever just in case I do
ever need them - I know, I'll save them to disk."

Martyn has thought about making an 'inverse RIAA' curve. I have thought
about making a 'generic' set of curves (for quick 'ballpark' Eq). Yes
these can be copied and pasted into EQCurves.xml but it would be much
easier to have Import/Export.

Just so as not to forget, "Length of Filter" is still out of line with
"Linear Frequency Scale".

Steve D

On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 00:28 +0100, Martyn Shaw wrote:

> Hi
>
> I disagree about getting rid of the 'flat' button and having a default
> curve instead, for many reasons (which I think you'll agree with).
>
> And I've used this thread (below) to expand on some ideas for EQ
> curves handling, maybe not the best place.
>
> Many people will probably want to start off at 'flat' and build
> something from there, so the button is useful.
>
> People should be able to remove the default curves and install their
> own, without losing the ability to 'flat' and start again. This can
> be done by replacing EQCurves.xml in C:\Documents and
> Settings\Martyn\Application Data\Audacity (or wherever), so we need
> the button.
>
> The default curves are, mostly, not very useful I feel, unless you
> have a record player system that has no default EQ and play/record old
> records with unusual EQ. Most record player systems these days will
> have RIAA built in, so in this (rather specialist) case of people
> digitising old records with a modern record playing system I guess we
> really need an 'inverse RIAA' in the default list, or (better) a means
> (button) to 'invert' any curve (which is, I believe, on the 'request'
> list but I have never got around to doing it, but would be good). (I
> also have an idea to generate an EQ curve from a spectrum analysis,
> but that should probably be a plug-in that I haven't even started.)
>
> I would like it if users would distribute their own EQ curves for
> various situations, so that other users could just add them to
> EQCurves.xml if they wanted them, but I believe that I have been told
> that this would be too complicated for general users. There are other
> solutions, such as users getting an EQ file from another user, putting
> it in "C:\Documents and Settings\Martyn\Application Data\Audacity" and
> then us searching for parseable files there), but that must be
> post-2.0, I guess. I imagine a link in the EQ taking a user to a web
> site where people can share EQ curves/files easily. Maybe there are
> some standards already out-there that I am not aware of for the format
> of these files. If not, maybe we can set one and call it ECSS (EQ
> Curve Sharing System) (pronounced 'Ex').
>
> I should stop now, since I probably don't have any readers. Let me
> know if you are interested in developing such a thing, or if I'm off-beam.
>
> TTFN
> Martyn
>
> Vaughan Johnson wrote:
> > It has a point in that if you want to just start over with something
> > completely different, it saves you moving lots of points. Rather than
> > the button, make it just another predefined curve and get rid of the
> > button?
> >
> > Martyn Shaw wrote:
> >> Sam's fix is good, thanks Sam, so I committed.
> >>
> >> I agree that a default 'flat' curve is both pointless, and pointless
> >> ;-), but if that's what people want...
> >>
> >> And I'd say it's a curve of zero curvature!
> >>
> >> TTFN
> >> Martyn
> >>
> >> Gale Andrews wrote:
> >>
> >>> | From Steve <[hidden email]> | Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:52:30
> >>> +0100
> >>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve
> >>>
> >>>> Is it a bug? The button says "flat", it does not say "clear custom".
> >>>>
> >>>> The workaround to saving a "flat curve" is as simple as pressing the
> >>>> flat button and setting at least one point on the "curve"(or pressing
> >>>> the "flat" button twice).
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not sure why anyone would want to save a "flat curve";
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) Is "flat" a "curve"?
> >>>>
> >>>> 2) Applying a flat curve does nothing. It reminds me of the "anechoic
> >>>> echo chamber" effect.
> >>>>
> >>>> 3) It's important that a "fix" does not prevent the user from switching
> >>>> from the custom curve, to a saved (preset) curve and back to the custom
> >>>> curve (for comparing a "tweaked" curve with a saved version).
> >>>>
> >>> Well, I've seen five "complaints" about this so thought I
> >>> had to record it at least so we can decide what to do
> >>> about it. I'm not sure the workarounds are that obvious,
> >>> and I think because people sense that pressing "Flat" may really not
> >>> be a "curve", they want the security of saving it as a "curve".
> >>>
> >>> If they try to do so now, I think you'll agree it really could look
> >>> like a bug (for example, you could be looking at the RIAA preset,
> >>> press Flat, Save it as "Flat", seems fine ("Flat" shows in "Select
> >>> curve" and the "flat curve"
> >>> shows in the graph). Click OK, go back into EQ and you
> >>> will see the last custom curve, click the Flat preset and the graph
> >>> does not change (Flat "curve" not saved).
> >>> Plus there is Martyn's point that pressing "Flat" shows
> >>> "Custom" then reselecting Custom shows something else.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> A different small issue on the Equalizer; there is a small display
> >>>> anomaly (I'm on Ubuntu 9.04 - not checked on other platforms). The
> >>>> words
> >>>> "Length of Filter" are slightly higher than the words "Linear Frequency
> >>>> Scale".
> >>>>
> >>> Confirmed on Ubuntu 9.04 in CVS, but not a problem on Windows XP.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Gale
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Wed, 2009-09-30 at 11:15 +0800, sam lewis wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I noticed that,at the beginning of EqualizationDialog::OnClear,
> >>>>> EnvelopeUpdated is called. And this function update custom curve
> >>>>> according to the change of envelop. So I think call this function at
> >>>>> the end of EqualizationDialog::OnClear might solve this problem.
> >>>>> Did I make any mistakes?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks
> >>>>> Sam
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Martyn Shaw
> >>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> EqualizationDialog::OnClear does not actually clear the custom curve,
> >>>>>> perhaps it should.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Select a curve, modify it a little so that 'custom' get selected,
> >>>>>> 'Flat', reselect 'custom'. See, still there! (Quicker way to
> >>>>>> demonstrate 'bug'.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> HTH
> >>>>>> Martyn
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> sam lewis wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>>> I am going to look at this bug. Any suggestions?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sam
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> >>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> >>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
> >>> stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009.
> >>> Register now!
> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> audacity-devel mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> >> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> >> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
> >> stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009.
> >> Register now!
> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> audacity-devel mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> _______________________________________________
> audacity-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel

Vaughan Johnson

Re: P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Martyn Shaw-2

Martyn Shaw wrote:
> Hi
>
> I disagree about getting rid of the 'flat' button and having a default
> curve instead, for many reasons (which I think you'll agree with).
It was just an idea. "Flat" is a curve, so it occurred to me it might be
good to treat it more like one. But it is a special case, for sure.

- V

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
_______________________________________________
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Martyn Shaw-2

Re: P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Stevethefiddle

Hi there

Steve wrote:

> The fix works perfectly here (Ubuntu 9.04).
>
>
> There have been several requests on the forum for the ability to
> import/export Eq curves and I notice that it is also on the Features
> Request page, (albeit with a mere 3 votes)
> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Feature_Requests#Other_Improvements_to_Effects
>
> While it is true that a processor/speaker/room dependant curve is
> unlikely to match someone else's requirements, there are situations
> where importing/exporting curves would be useful.
>
> Example - I record someone playing the pub piano on my Zoom H2 recorder
> and make a nice curve to Eq it to perfection. I probably don't want that
> (and 1000 other curves) in my list of pre-sets all the time, but if I
> can put it onto a disk with my backup raw recordings, then I have it in
> the event that I want it again.

This is a good idea, adding to what I had. Search the directory with
the data in for EQ files. I don't know how we would manage putting
them there in the first place though.

> Example - "Hey Dad, I'm trying to Eq this track and can't get it quite
> right. Can you give me a hand with it - here's a short sample."
> "Sure thing Son. Try this Eq curve."

This is posting an EQ curve to someone, as a file, having them put it
somewhere sensible and then finding it. What if it has the same name
as one loaded earlier? Add a '-1' to the visible name?

> Example - "I don't want my Eq pre-set list cluttered with all those RIAA
> type curves, but I'd rather not loose them forever just in case I do
> ever need them - I know, I'll save them to disk."

We should remove them from the code and make them available on the web
somewhere, so you can get them if you want them. Or install them as a
file on an install (remembering that not everybody has t'internet
always-on? Either way, remove them from the code, I think.

> Martyn has thought about making an 'inverse RIAA' curve.

But I won't add that to the code, ever. I would add an 'invert'
button if I had time, that would invert any curve..

I have thought
> about making a 'generic' set of curves (for quick 'ballpark' Eq). Yes
> these can be copied and pasted into EQCurves.xml but it would be much
> easier to have Import/Export.

Indeed. And (hopefully) somebody else has another set, their opinion.
It's a bit like Nyquist plug-ins, some standard ones and people able
to add others from various sources?

Would somebody please create a wiki page that will be a
description/specification of what we have discussed/decided so far?
It's obviously not going to be in 2.0 so lets create a good design and
get it implemented later. The wiki page can become a Manual page in
the future.

> Just so as not to forget, "Length of Filter" is still out of line with
> "Linear Frequency Scale".

Can you post an image of that please, for those of us without *nix?
Also in Graphic mode, where we have a fairly trivial alignment problem
in Win also.

Thanks
Martyn

>
> Steve D
>
>
> On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 00:28 +0100, Martyn Shaw wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> I disagree about getting rid of the 'flat' button and having a default
>> curve instead, for many reasons (which I think you'll agree with).
>>
>> And I've used this thread (below) to expand on some ideas for EQ
>> curves handling, maybe not the best place.
>>
>> Many people will probably want to start off at 'flat' and build
>> something from there, so the button is useful.
>>
>> People should be able to remove the default curves and install their
>> own, without losing the ability to 'flat' and start again. This can
>> be done by replacing EQCurves.xml in C:\Documents and
>> Settings\Martyn\Application Data\Audacity (or wherever), so we need
>> the button.
>>
>> The default curves are, mostly, not very useful I feel, unless you
>> have a record player system that has no default EQ and play/record old
>> records with unusual EQ. Most record player systems these days will
>> have RIAA built in, so in this (rather specialist) case of people
>> digitising old records with a modern record playing system I guess we
>> really need an 'inverse RIAA' in the default list, or (better) a means
>> (button) to 'invert' any curve (which is, I believe, on the 'request'
>> list but I have never got around to doing it, but would be good). (I
>> also have an idea to generate an EQ curve from a spectrum analysis,
>> but that should probably be a plug-in that I haven't even started.)
>>
>> I would like it if users would distribute their own EQ curves for
>> various situations, so that other users could just add them to
>> EQCurves.xml if they wanted them, but I believe that I have been told
>> that this would be too complicated for general users. There are other
>> solutions, such as users getting an EQ file from another user, putting
>> it in "C:\Documents and Settings\Martyn\Application Data\Audacity" and
>> then us searching for parseable files there), but that must be
>> post-2.0, I guess. I imagine a link in the EQ taking a user to a web
>> site where people can share EQ curves/files easily. Maybe there are
>> some standards already out-there that I am not aware of for the format
>> of these files. If not, maybe we can set one and call it ECSS (EQ
>> Curve Sharing System) (pronounced 'Ex').
>>
>> I should stop now, since I probably don't have any readers. Let me
>> know if you are interested in developing such a thing, or if I'm off-beam.
>>
>> TTFN
>> Martyn
>>
>> Vaughan Johnson wrote:
>>> It has a point in that if you want to just start over with something
>>> completely different, it saves you moving lots of points. Rather than
>>> the button, make it just another predefined curve and get rid of the
>>> button?
>>>
>>> Martyn Shaw wrote:
>>>> Sam's fix is good, thanks Sam, so I committed.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that a default 'flat' curve is both pointless, and pointless
>>>> ;-), but if that's what people want...
>>>>
>>>> And I'd say it's a curve of zero curvature!
>>>>
>>>> TTFN
>>>> Martyn
>>>>
>>>> Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> | From Steve <[hidden email]> | Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:52:30
>>>>> +0100
>>>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve
>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it a bug? The button says "flat", it does not say "clear custom".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The workaround to saving a "flat curve" is as simple as pressing the
>>>>>> flat button and setting at least one point on the "curve"(or pressing
>>>>>> the "flat" button twice).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure why anyone would want to save a "flat curve";
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) Is "flat" a "curve"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) Applying a flat curve does nothing. It reminds me of the "anechoic
>>>>>> echo chamber" effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3) It's important that a "fix" does not prevent the user from switching
>>>>>> from the custom curve, to a saved (preset) curve and back to the custom
>>>>>> curve (for comparing a "tweaked" curve with a saved version).
>>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I've seen five "complaints" about this so thought I
>>>>> had to record it at least so we can decide what to do
>>>>> about it. I'm not sure the workarounds are that obvious,
>>>>> and I think because people sense that pressing "Flat" may really not
>>>>> be a "curve", they want the security of saving it as a "curve".
>>>>>
>>>>> If they try to do so now, I think you'll agree it really could look
>>>>> like a bug (for example, you could be looking at the RIAA preset,
>>>>> press Flat, Save it as "Flat", seems fine ("Flat" shows in "Select
>>>>> curve" and the "flat curve"
>>>>> shows in the graph). Click OK, go back into EQ and you
>>>>> will see the last custom curve, click the Flat preset and the graph
>>>>> does not change (Flat "curve" not saved).
>>>>> Plus there is Martyn's point that pressing "Flat" shows
>>>>> "Custom" then reselecting Custom shows something else.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> A different small issue on the Equalizer; there is a small display
>>>>>> anomaly (I'm on Ubuntu 9.04 - not checked on other platforms). The
>>>>>> words
>>>>>> "Length of Filter" are slightly higher than the words "Linear Frequency
>>>>>> Scale".
>>>>>>
>>>>> Confirmed on Ubuntu 9.04 in CVS, but not a problem on Windows XP.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gale
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 2009-09-30 at 11:15 +0800, sam lewis wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I noticed that,at the beginning of EqualizationDialog::OnClear,
>>>>>>> EnvelopeUpdated is called. And this function update custom curve
>>>>>>> according to the change of envelop. So I think call this function at
>>>>>>> the end of EqualizationDialog::OnClear might solve this problem.
>>>>>>> Did I make any mistakes?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Martyn Shaw
>>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> EqualizationDialog::OnClear does not actually clear the custom curve,
>>>>>>>> perhaps it should.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Select a curve, modify it a little so that 'custom' get selected,
>>>>>>>> 'Flat', reselect 'custom'. See, still there! (Quicker way to
>>>>>>>> demonstrate 'bug'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>>>> Martyn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> sam lewis wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>> I am going to look at this bug. Any suggestions?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
>>>>> stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009.
>>>>> Register now!
>>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
>>>> stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009.
>>>> Register now!
>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>> _______________________________________________
>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> _______________________________________________
> audacity-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>

Stevethefiddle

Re: P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

Reply Threaded

On Sun, 2009-10-04 at 00:36 +0100, Martyn Shaw wrote:

> Hi there
>
> Steve wrote:
> > The fix works perfectly here (Ubuntu 9.04).
> >
> >
> > There have been several requests on the forum for the ability to
> > import/export Eq curves and I notice that it is also on the Features
> > Request page, (albeit with a mere 3 votes)
> > http://wiki.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Feature_Requests#Other_Improvements_to_Effects
> >
> > While it is true that a processor/speaker/room dependant curve is
> > unlikely to match someone else's requirements, there are situations
> > where importing/exporting curves would be useful.
> >
> > Example - I record someone playing the pub piano on my Zoom H2 recorder
> > and make a nice curve to Eq it to perfection. I probably don't want that
> > (and 1000 other curves) in my list of pre-sets all the time, but if I
> > can put it onto a disk with my backup raw recordings, then I have it in
> > the event that I want it again.
>
> This is a good idea, adding to what I had. Search the directory with
> the data in for EQ files. I don't know how we would manage putting
> them there in the first place though.
>
> > Example - "Hey Dad, I'm trying to Eq this track and can't get it quite
> > right. Can you give me a hand with it - here's a short sample."
> > "Sure thing Son. Try this Eq curve."
>
> This is posting an EQ curve to someone, as a file, having them put it
> somewhere sensible and then finding it. What if it has the same name
> as one loaded earlier? Add a '-1' to the visible name?

What I had in mind (but not being a programmer I don't know the
feasibility), is as follows:

When the user clicks on "Save As..." they are prompted to enter a name
for the curve and it is written into the EQCurves.xml file. There is
already checking for duplicate names and if the curve name exists they
are asked if they want to overwrite the existing curve. (this part we
have already).

The new bits;

IMPORT
When the user click on the "Import" button, they browse for an XML file
that should contain a curve definition in the same format as used by
EQCurves.xml. At this point there are various options;

1) The new-curve.xml file contains just one curve and it is read and
becomes the "custom" curve. This can then be saved in EQCurves.xml in
the normal way.

2) The new-curve.xml may contain one or more curves in the EQCurves.xml
format. All valid curve names are then displayed and the user can the
select which curves to import. The selected curves are then written
directly into the EQCurves.xml file as new pre-sets. If a duplicate name
is found it would probably be necessary to add a suffix such as
"my-new-curve", "my-new-curve(1)", "my-new-curve(2)".

EXPORT
When the user clicks on the "Export" button, the action is similar to
the normal "Save As.." except that a browser is opened to allow the
current curve to be written to a new .XML file.

ALTERNATIVE - EQ CURVE MANAGER
An alternative to all of this would be to have an external program or
module as a "Eq-curves Manager". Ideally this could be launched from a
button on the Equalization window. I would imagine this as a two window
browser where the left window displays the curve names that exist in
EQCurves.xml and the right window is populated by selecting another XML
file. Curves could then be copied from one file to the other or deleted.
As all the curve names are visible, there would be no need to add a
suffix to duplicate names as that should be left to the user.

> > Example - "I don't want my Eq pre-set list cluttered with all those RIAA
> > type curves, but I'd rather not loose them forever just in case I do
> > ever need them - I know, I'll save them to disk."
>
> We should remove them from the code and make them available on the web
> somewhere, so you can get them if you want them. Or install them as a
> file on an install (remembering that not everybody has t'internet
> always-on? Either way, remove them from the code, I think.
>
> > Martyn has thought about making an 'inverse RIAA' curve.
>
> But I won't add that to the code, ever. I would add an 'invert'
> button if I had time, that would invert any curve..
>
> I have thought
> > about making a 'generic' set of curves (for quick 'ballpark' Eq). Yes
> > these can be copied and pasted into EQCurves.xml but it would be much
> > easier to have Import/Export.
>
> Indeed. And (hopefully) somebody else has another set, their opinion.
> It's a bit like Nyquist plug-ins, some standard ones and people able
> to add others from various sources?
>
> Would somebody please create a wiki page that will be a
> description/specification of what we have discussed/decided so far?
> It's obviously not going to be in 2.0 so lets create a good design and
> get it implemented later. The wiki page can become a Manual page in
> the future.
>
> > Just so as not to forget, "Length of Filter" is still out of line with
> > "Linear Frequency Scale".
>
> Can you post an image of that please, for those of us without *nix?
> Also in Graphic mode, where we have a fairly trivial alignment problem
> in Win also.

Screen shots attached. The alignment problem is only really visible in
the "Draw curves" mode.

Steve D

> Thanks
> Martyn
>
> >
> > Steve D
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 00:28 +0100, Martyn Shaw wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> I disagree about getting rid of the 'flat' button and having a default
> >> curve instead, for many reasons (which I think you'll agree with).
> >>
> >> And I've used this thread (below) to expand on some ideas for EQ
> >> curves handling, maybe not the best place.
> >>
> >> Many people will probably want to start off at 'flat' and build
> >> something from there, so the button is useful.
> >>
> >> People should be able to remove the default curves and install their
> >> own, without losing the ability to 'flat' and start again. This can
> >> be done by replacing EQCurves.xml in C:\Documents and
> >> Settings\Martyn\Application Data\Audacity (or wherever), so we need
> >> the button.
> >>
> >> The default curves are, mostly, not very useful I feel, unless you
> >> have a record player system that has no default EQ and play/record old
> >> records with unusual EQ. Most record player systems these days will
> >> have RIAA built in, so in this (rather specialist) case of people
> >> digitising old records with a modern record playing system I guess we
> >> really need an 'inverse RIAA' in the default list, or (better) a means
> >> (button) to 'invert' any curve (which is, I believe, on the 'request'
> >> list but I have never got around to doing it, but would be good). (I
> >> also have an idea to generate an EQ curve from a spectrum analysis,
> >> but that should probably be a plug-in that I haven't even started.)
> >>
> >> I would like it if users would distribute their own EQ curves for
> >> various situations, so that other users could just add them to
> >> EQCurves.xml if they wanted them, but I believe that I have been told
> >> that this would be too complicated for general users. There are other
> >> solutions, such as users getting an EQ file from another user, putting
> >> it in "C:\Documents and Settings\Martyn\Application Data\Audacity" and
> >> then us searching for parseable files there), but that must be
> >> post-2.0, I guess. I imagine a link in the EQ taking a user to a web
> >> site where people can share EQ curves/files easily. Maybe there are
> >> some standards already out-there that I am not aware of for the format
> >> of these files. If not, maybe we can set one and call it ECSS (EQ
> >> Curve Sharing System) (pronounced 'Ex').
> >>
> >> I should stop now, since I probably don't have any readers. Let me
> >> know if you are interested in developing such a thing, or if I'm off-beam.
> >>
> >> TTFN
> >> Martyn
> >>
> >> Vaughan Johnson wrote:
> >>> It has a point in that if you want to just start over with something
> >>> completely different, it saves you moving lots of points. Rather than
> >>> the button, make it just another predefined curve and get rid of the
> >>> button?
> >>>
> >>> Martyn Shaw wrote:
> >>>> Sam's fix is good, thanks Sam, so I committed.
> >>>>
> >>>> I agree that a default 'flat' curve is both pointless, and pointless
> >>>> ;-), but if that's what people want...
> >>>>
> >>>> And I'd say it's a curve of zero curvature!
> >>>>
> >>>> TTFN
> >>>> Martyn
> >>>>
> >>>> Gale Andrews wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> | From Steve <[hidden email]> | Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:52:30
> >>>>> +0100
> >>>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Is it a bug? The button says "flat", it does not say "clear custom".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The workaround to saving a "flat curve" is as simple as pressing the
> >>>>>> flat button and setting at least one point on the "curve"(or pressing
> >>>>>> the "flat" button twice).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm not sure why anyone would want to save a "flat curve";
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1) Is "flat" a "curve"?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 2) Applying a flat curve does nothing. It reminds me of the "anechoic
> >>>>>> echo chamber" effect.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 3) It's important that a "fix" does not prevent the user from switching
> >>>>>> from the custom curve, to a saved (preset) curve and back to the custom
> >>>>>> curve (for comparing a "tweaked" curve with a saved version).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Well, I've seen five "complaints" about this so thought I
> >>>>> had to record it at least so we can decide what to do
> >>>>> about it. I'm not sure the workarounds are that obvious,
> >>>>> and I think because people sense that pressing "Flat" may really not
> >>>>> be a "curve", they want the security of saving it as a "curve".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If they try to do so now, I think you'll agree it really could look
> >>>>> like a bug (for example, you could be looking at the RIAA preset,
> >>>>> press Flat, Save it as "Flat", seems fine ("Flat" shows in "Select
> >>>>> curve" and the "flat curve"
> >>>>> shows in the graph). Click OK, go back into EQ and you
> >>>>> will see the last custom curve, click the Flat preset and the graph
> >>>>> does not change (Flat "curve" not saved).
> >>>>> Plus there is Martyn's point that pressing "Flat" shows
> >>>>> "Custom" then reselecting Custom shows something else.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> A different small issue on the Equalizer; there is a small display
> >>>>>> anomaly (I'm on Ubuntu 9.04 - not checked on other platforms). The
> >>>>>> words
> >>>>>> "Length of Filter" are slightly higher than the words "Linear Frequency
> >>>>>> Scale".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Confirmed on Ubuntu 9.04 in CVS, but not a problem on Windows XP.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Gale
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Wed, 2009-09-30 at 11:15 +0800, sam lewis wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I noticed that,at the beginning of EqualizationDialog::OnClear,
> >>>>>>> EnvelopeUpdated is called. And this function update custom curve
> >>>>>>> according to the change of envelop. So I think call this function at
> >>>>>>> the end of EqualizationDialog::OnClear might solve this problem.
> >>>>>>> Did I make any mistakes?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>>> Sam
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Martyn Shaw
> >>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> EqualizationDialog::OnClear does not actually clear the custom curve,
> >>>>>>>> perhaps it should.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Select a curve, modify it a little so that 'custom' get selected,
> >>>>>>>> 'Flat', reselect 'custom'. See, still there! (Quicker way to
> >>>>>>>> demonstrate 'bug'.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> HTH
> >>>>>>>> Martyn
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> sam lewis wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>>>>> I am going to look at this bug. Any suggestions?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Sam
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> >>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> >>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
> >>>>> stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009.
> >>>>> Register now!
> >>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> audacity-devel mailing list
> >>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> >>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> >>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
> >>>> stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009.
> >>>> Register now!
> >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> audacity-devel mailing list
> >>>> [hidden email]
> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> >> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> >> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> >> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> audacity-devel mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> > _______________________________________________
> > audacity-devel mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
> >

eq-draw-curves.png (56K) Download Attachment

graphic-eq.png (53K) Download Attachment

Martyn Shaw-2

Re: P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

Reply Threaded

Hi Steve

Steve wrote:

> On Sun, 2009-10-04 at 00:36 +0100, Martyn Shaw wrote:
>> Hi there
>>
>> Steve wrote:
>>> The fix works perfectly here (Ubuntu 9.04).
>>>
>>>
>>> There have been several requests on the forum for the ability to
>>> import/export Eq curves and I notice that it is also on the Features
>>> Request page, (albeit with a mere 3 votes)
>>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Feature_Requests#Other_Improvements_to_Effects
>>>
>>> While it is true that a processor/speaker/room dependant curve is
>>> unlikely to match someone else's requirements, there are situations
>>> where importing/exporting curves would be useful.
>>>
>>> Example - I record someone playing the pub piano on my Zoom H2 recorder
>>> and make a nice curve to Eq it to perfection. I probably don't want that
>>> (and 1000 other curves) in my list of pre-sets all the time, but if I
>>> can put it onto a disk with my backup raw recordings, then I have it in
>>> the event that I want it again.
>> This is a good idea, adding to what I had. Search the directory with
>> the data in for EQ files. I don't know how we would manage putting
>> them there in the first place though.
>>
>>> Example - "Hey Dad, I'm trying to Eq this track and can't get it quite
>>> right. Can you give me a hand with it - here's a short sample."
>>> "Sure thing Son. Try this Eq curve."
>> This is posting an EQ curve to someone, as a file, having them put it
>> somewhere sensible and then finding it. What if it has the same name
>> as one loaded earlier? Add a '-1' to the visible name?
>
> What I had in mind (but not being a programmer I don't know the
> feasibility), is as follows:
>
> When the user clicks on "Save As..." they are prompted to enter a name
> for the curve and it is written into the EQCurves.xml file. There is
> already checking for duplicate names and if the curve name exists they
> are asked if they want to overwrite the existing curve. (this part we
> have already).
>
> The new bits;
>
> IMPORT
> When the user click on the "Import" button, they browse for an XML file
> that should contain a curve definition in the same format as used by
> EQCurves.xml. At this point there are various options;

Using an "Import" button is probably a better thing than us searching
automatically for all sensible places for EQ curves (which I think I
suggested) since it gives more user control, and won't add clutter to
the EQ list unless requested.

> 1) The new-curve.xml file contains just one curve and it is read and
> becomes the "custom" curve. This can then be saved in EQCurves.xml in
> the normal way.

We lose information that way (the name of the curve).

> 2) The new-curve.xml may contain one or more curves in the EQCurves.xml
> format. All valid curve names are then displayed and the user can the
> select which curves to import. The selected curves are then written
> directly into the EQCurves.xml file as new pre-sets. If a duplicate name
> is found it would probably be necessary to add a suffix such as
> "my-new-curve", "my-new-curve(1)", "my-new-curve(2)".

This is a better alternative to (1). Good idea! I think that at the
moment EQCurves.xml only actually gets written when Audacity exits
normally, but I might be wrong on that. Needs a little investigation.

> EXPORT
> When the user clicks on the "Export" button, the action is similar to
> the normal "Save As.." except that a browser is opened to allow the
> current curve to be written to a new .XML file.

Or to re-name 'custom' for export (if modified) and then select a
number of other curves to be written to the file. So I could make and
save 'myCurve1', 'myCurve2' and modify if further, hit "Export", name
the current 'custom' as 'myCurve3' and then export 'myCurve1' and
'myCurve3' to a file to send to my mate.

> ALTERNATIVE - EQ CURVE MANAGER
> An alternative to all of this would be to have an external program or
> module as a "Eq-curves Manager". Ideally this could be launched from a
> button on the Equalization window. I would imagine this as a two window
> browser where the left window displays the curve names that exist in
> EQCurves.xml and the right window is populated by selecting another XML
> file. Curves could then be copied from one file to the other or deleted.
> As all the curve names are visible, there would be no need to add a
> suffix to duplicate names as that should be left to the user.

That would be good, but well into the future. An entirely separate
project that would take a keen developer. Maybe a GSoC 2010 idea?

>>> Example - "I don't want my Eq pre-set list cluttered with all those RIAA
>>> type curves, but I'd rather not loose them forever just in case I do
>>> ever need them - I know, I'll save them to disk."
>> We should remove them from the code and make them available on the web
>> somewhere, so you can get them if you want them. Or install them as a
>> file on an install (remembering that not everybody has t'internet
>> always-on? Either way, remove them from the code, I think.
>>
>>> Martyn has thought about making an 'inverse RIAA' curve.
>> But I won't add that to the code, ever. I would add an 'invert'
>> button if I had time, that would invert any curve..
>>
>> I have thought
>>> about making a 'generic' set of curves (for quick 'ballpark' Eq). Yes
>>> these can be copied and pasted into EQCurves.xml but it would be much
>>> easier to have Import/Export.
>> Indeed. And (hopefully) somebody else has another set, their opinion.
>> It's a bit like Nyquist plug-ins, some standard ones and people able
>> to add others from various sources?
>>
>> Would somebody please create a wiki page that will be a
>> description/specification of what we have discussed/decided so far?
>> It's obviously not going to be in 2.0 so lets create a good design and
>> get it implemented later. The wiki page can become a Manual page in
>> the future.
>>
>>> Just so as not to forget, "Length of Filter" is still out of line with
>>> "Linear Frequency Scale".
>> Can you post an image of that please, for those of us without *nix?
>> Also in Graphic mode, where we have a fairly trivial alignment problem
>> in Win also.
>
> Screen shots attached. The alignment problem is only really visible in
> the "Draw curves" mode.

Thanks Steve. Shouldn't have been part of this thread, will take it
to another.

TTFN
Martyn

> Steve D
>
>> Thanks
>> Martyn
>>
>>> Steve D
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 00:28 +0100, Martyn Shaw wrote:
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> I disagree about getting rid of the 'flat' button and having a default
>>>> curve instead, for many reasons (which I think you'll agree with).
>>>>
>>>> And I've used this thread (below) to expand on some ideas for EQ
>>>> curves handling, maybe not the best place.
>>>>
>>>> Many people will probably want to start off at 'flat' and build
>>>> something from there, so the button is useful.
>>>>
>>>> People should be able to remove the default curves and install their
>>>> own, without losing the ability to 'flat' and start again. This can
>>>> be done by replacing EQCurves.xml in C:\Documents and
>>>> Settings\Martyn\Application Data\Audacity (or wherever), so we need
>>>> the button.
>>>>
>>>> The default curves are, mostly, not very useful I feel, unless you
>>>> have a record player system that has no default EQ and play/record old
>>>> records with unusual EQ. Most record player systems these days will
>>>> have RIAA built in, so in this (rather specialist) case of people
>>>> digitising old records with a modern record playing system I guess we
>>>> really need an 'inverse RIAA' in the default list, or (better) a means
>>>> (button) to 'invert' any curve (which is, I believe, on the 'request'
>>>> list but I have never got around to doing it, but would be good). (I
>>>> also have an idea to generate an EQ curve from a spectrum analysis,
>>>> but that should probably be a plug-in that I haven't even started.)
>>>>
>>>> I would like it if users would distribute their own EQ curves for
>>>> various situations, so that other users could just add them to
>>>> EQCurves.xml if they wanted them, but I believe that I have been told
>>>> that this would be too complicated for general users. There are other
>>>> solutions, such as users getting an EQ file from another user, putting
>>>> it in "C:\Documents and Settings\Martyn\Application Data\Audacity" and
>>>> then us searching for parseable files there), but that must be
>>>> post-2.0, I guess. I imagine a link in the EQ taking a user to a web
>>>> site where people can share EQ curves/files easily. Maybe there are
>>>> some standards already out-there that I am not aware of for the format
>>>> of these files. If not, maybe we can set one and call it ECSS (EQ
>>>> Curve Sharing System) (pronounced 'Ex').
>>>>
>>>> I should stop now, since I probably don't have any readers. Let me
>>>> know if you are interested in developing such a thing, or if I'm off-beam.
>>>>
>>>> TTFN
>>>> Martyn
>>>>
>>>> Vaughan Johnson wrote:
>>>>> It has a point in that if you want to just start over with something
>>>>> completely different, it saves you moving lots of points. Rather than
>>>>> the button, make it just another predefined curve and get rid of the
>>>>> button?
>>>>>
>>>>> Martyn Shaw wrote:
>>>>>> Sam's fix is good, thanks Sam, so I committed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree that a default 'flat' curve is both pointless, and pointless
>>>>>> ;-), but if that's what people want...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I'd say it's a curve of zero curvature!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TTFN
>>>>>> Martyn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> | From Steve <[hidden email]> | Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:52:30
>>>>>>> +0100
>>>>>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is it a bug? The button says "flat", it does not say "clear custom".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The workaround to saving a "flat curve" is as simple as pressing the
>>>>>>>> flat button and setting at least one point on the "curve"(or pressing
>>>>>>>> the "flat" button twice).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure why anyone would want to save a "flat curve";
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1) Is "flat" a "curve"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2) Applying a flat curve does nothing. It reminds me of the "anechoic
>>>>>>>> echo chamber" effect.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3) It's important that a "fix" does not prevent the user from switching
>>>>>>>> from the custom curve, to a saved (preset) curve and back to the custom
>>>>>>>> curve (for comparing a "tweaked" curve with a saved version).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, I've seen five "complaints" about this so thought I
>>>>>>> had to record it at least so we can decide what to do
>>>>>>> about it. I'm not sure the workarounds are that obvious,
>>>>>>> and I think because people sense that pressing "Flat" may really not
>>>>>>> be a "curve", they want the security of saving it as a "curve".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If they try to do so now, I think you'll agree it really could look
>>>>>>> like a bug (for example, you could be looking at the RIAA preset,
>>>>>>> press Flat, Save it as "Flat", seems fine ("Flat" shows in "Select
>>>>>>> curve" and the "flat curve"
>>>>>>> shows in the graph). Click OK, go back into EQ and you
>>>>>>> will see the last custom curve, click the Flat preset and the graph
>>>>>>> does not change (Flat "curve" not saved).
>>>>>>> Plus there is Martyn's point that pressing "Flat" shows
>>>>>>> "Custom" then reselecting Custom shows something else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A different small issue on the Equalizer; there is a small display
>>>>>>>> anomaly (I'm on Ubuntu 9.04 - not checked on other platforms). The
>>>>>>>> words
>>>>>>>> "Length of Filter" are slightly higher than the words "Linear Frequency
>>>>>>>> Scale".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Confirmed on Ubuntu 9.04 in CVS, but not a problem on Windows XP.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 2009-09-30 at 11:15 +0800, sam lewis wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I noticed that,at the beginning of EqualizationDialog::OnClear,
>>>>>>>>> EnvelopeUpdated is called. And this function update custom curve
>>>>>>>>> according to the change of envelop. So I think call this function at
>>>>>>>>> the end of EqualizationDialog::OnClear might solve this problem.
>>>>>>>>> Did I make any mistakes?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Martyn Shaw
>>>>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> EqualizationDialog::OnClear does not actually clear the custom curve,
>>>>>>>>>> perhaps it should.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Select a curve, modify it a little so that 'custom' get selected,
>>>>>>>>>> 'Flat', reselect 'custom'. See, still there! (Quicker way to
>>>>>>>>>> demonstrate 'bug'.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>>>>>> Martyn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> sam lewis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>> I am going to look at this bug. Any suggestions?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>>>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>>>>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
>>>>>>> stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009.
>>>>>>> Register now!
>>>>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>>>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
>>>>>> stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009.
>>>>>> Register now!
>>>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>

Stevethefiddle

Re: P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

Reply Threaded

On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 00:24 +0100, Martyn Shaw wrote:

> Hi Steve
>
> Steve wrote:
> > On Sun, 2009-10-04 at 00:36 +0100, Martyn Shaw wrote:
> >> Hi there
> >>
> >> Steve wrote:
> >>> The fix works perfectly here (Ubuntu 9.04).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> There have been several requests on the forum for the ability to
> >>> import/export Eq curves and I notice that it is also on the Features
> >>> Request page, (albeit with a mere 3 votes)
> >>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Feature_Requests#Other_Improvements_to_Effects
> >>>
> >>> While it is true that a processor/speaker/room dependant curve is
> >>> unlikely to match someone else's requirements, there are situations
> >>> where importing/exporting curves would be useful.
> >>>
> >>> Example - I record someone playing the pub piano on my Zoom H2 recorder
> >>> and make a nice curve to Eq it to perfection. I probably don't want that
> >>> (and 1000 other curves) in my list of pre-sets all the time, but if I
> >>> can put it onto a disk with my backup raw recordings, then I have it in
> >>> the event that I want it again.
> >> This is a good idea, adding to what I had. Search the directory with
> >> the data in for EQ files. I don't know how we would manage putting
> >> them there in the first place though.
> >>
> >>> Example - "Hey Dad, I'm trying to Eq this track and can't get it quite
> >>> right. Can you give me a hand with it - here's a short sample."
> >>> "Sure thing Son. Try this Eq curve."
> >> This is posting an EQ curve to someone, as a file, having them put it
> >> somewhere sensible and then finding it. What if it has the same name
> >> as one loaded earlier? Add a '-1' to the visible name?
> >
> > What I had in mind (but not being a programmer I don't know the
> > feasibility), is as follows:
> >
> > When the user clicks on "Save As..." they are prompted to enter a name
> > for the curve and it is written into the EQCurves.xml file. There is
> > already checking for duplicate names and if the curve name exists they
> > are asked if they want to overwrite the existing curve. (this part we
> > have already).
> >
> > The new bits;
> >
> > IMPORT
> > When the user click on the "Import" button, they browse for an XML file
> > that should contain a curve definition in the same format as used by
> > EQCurves.xml. At this point there are various options;
>
> Using an "Import" button is probably a better thing than us searching
> automatically for all sensible places for EQ curves (which I think I
> suggested) since it gives more user control, and won't add clutter to
> the EQ list unless requested.
>
> > 1) The new-curve.xml file contains just one curve and it is read and
> > becomes the "custom" curve. This can then be saved in EQCurves.xml in
> > the normal way.
>
> We lose information that way (the name of the curve).

Is that important? When the user has imported the curve they can then
decide whether or not they want to save it (they probably do not know if
it is what they want until they try it out). If they decide that they
want to save it, they can name it to whatever they like.

For example, you send me a curve called "bass-boost". I try it, I like
it, I re-open Equalization and I save it (the current "custom" curve) as
"martyns-bass-boost".

> > 2) The new-curve.xml may contain one or more curves in the EQCurves.xml
> > format. All valid curve names are then displayed and the user can the
> > select which curves to import. The selected curves are then written
> > directly into the EQCurves.xml file as new pre-sets. If a duplicate name
> > is found it would probably be necessary to add a suffix such as
> > "my-new-curve", "my-new-curve(1)", "my-new-curve(2)".
>
> This is a better alternative to (1). Good idea! I think that at the
> moment EQCurves.xml only actually gets written when Audacity exits
> normally, but I might be wrong on that. Needs a little investigation.

Audacity 1.3 writes the custom curve to the EQCurves.xml file when the
"Save As.." button is pressed. I've no idea how (if) this could be
implemented in idea (2). In idea (1) saving would be no different from
what we already have.

>
> > EXPORT
> > When the user clicks on the "Export" button, the action is similar to
> > the normal "Save As.." except that a browser is opened to allow the
> > current curve to be written to a new .XML file.
>
> Or to re-name 'custom' for export (if modified) and then select a
> number of other curves to be written to the file. So I could make and
> save 'myCurve1', 'myCurve2' and modify if further, hit "Export", name
> the current 'custom' as 'myCurve3' and then export 'myCurve1' and
> 'myCurve3' to a file to send to my mate.
>
> > ALTERNATIVE - EQ CURVE MANAGER
> > An alternative to all of this would be to have an external program or
> > module as a "Eq-curves Manager". Ideally this could be launched from a
> > button on the Equalization window. I would imagine this as a two window
> > browser where the left window displays the curve names that exist in
> > EQCurves.xml and the right window is populated by selecting another XML
> > file. Curves could then be copied from one file to the other or deleted.
> > As all the curve names are visible, there would be no need to add a
> > suffix to duplicate names as that should be left to the user.
>
> That would be good, but well into the future. An entirely separate
> project that would take a keen developer. Maybe a GSoC 2010 idea?

An "Eq Curve manager" is certainly the most powerful solution, and
probably the most work for that keen developer, but now that the "flat
curve bug" is fixed I would not expect any of these "feature requests"
to be taken up in the near future.

Steve D

> >>> Example - "I don't want my Eq pre-set list cluttered with all those RIAA
> >>> type curves, but I'd rather not loose them forever just in case I do
> >>> ever need them - I know, I'll save them to disk."
> >> We should remove them from the code and make them available on the web
> >> somewhere, so you can get them if you want them. Or install them as a
> >> file on an install (remembering that not everybody has t'internet
> >> always-on? Either way, remove them from the code, I think.
> >>
> >>> Martyn has thought about making an 'inverse RIAA' curve.
> >> But I won't add that to the code, ever. I would add an 'invert'
> >> button if I had time, that would invert any curve..
> >>
> >> I have thought
> >>> about making a 'generic' set of curves (for quick 'ballpark' Eq). Yes
> >>> these can be copied and pasted into EQCurves.xml but it would be much
> >>> easier to have Import/Export.
> >> Indeed. And (hopefully) somebody else has another set, their opinion.
> >> It's a bit like Nyquist plug-ins, some standard ones and people able
> >> to add others from various sources?
> >>
> >> Would somebody please create a wiki page that will be a
> >> description/specification of what we have discussed/decided so far?
> >> It's obviously not going to be in 2.0 so lets create a good design and
> >> get it implemented later. The wiki page can become a Manual page in
> >> the future.
> >>
> >>> Just so as not to forget, "Length of Filter" is still out of line with
> >>> "Linear Frequency Scale".
> >> Can you post an image of that please, for those of us without *nix?
> >> Also in Graphic mode, where we have a fairly trivial alignment problem
> >> in Win also.
> >
> > Screen shots attached. The alignment problem is only really visible in
> > the "Draw curves" mode.
>
> Thanks Steve. Shouldn't have been part of this thread, will take it
> to another.
>
> TTFN
> Martyn
>
> > Steve D
> >
> >> Thanks
> >> Martyn
> >>
> >>> Steve D
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 00:28 +0100, Martyn Shaw wrote:
> >>>> Hi
> >>>>
> >>>> I disagree about getting rid of the 'flat' button and having a default
> >>>> curve instead, for many reasons (which I think you'll agree with).
> >>>>
> >>>> And I've used this thread (below) to expand on some ideas for EQ
> >>>> curves handling, maybe not the best place.
> >>>>
> >>>> Many people will probably want to start off at 'flat' and build
> >>>> something from there, so the button is useful.
> >>>>
> >>>> People should be able to remove the default curves and install their
> >>>> own, without losing the ability to 'flat' and start again. This can
> >>>> be done by replacing EQCurves.xml in C:\Documents and
> >>>> Settings\Martyn\Application Data\Audacity (or wherever), so we need
> >>>> the button.
> >>>>
> >>>> The default curves are, mostly, not very useful I feel, unless you
> >>>> have a record player system that has no default EQ and play/record old
> >>>> records with unusual EQ. Most record player systems these days will
> >>>> have RIAA built in, so in this (rather specialist) case of people
> >>>> digitising old records with a modern record playing system I guess we
> >>>> really need an 'inverse RIAA' in the default list, or (better) a means
> >>>> (button) to 'invert' any curve (which is, I believe, on the 'request'
> >>>> list but I have never got around to doing it, but would be good). (I
> >>>> also have an idea to generate an EQ curve from a spectrum analysis,
> >>>> but that should probably be a plug-in that I haven't even started.)
> >>>>
> >>>> I would like it if users would distribute their own EQ curves for
> >>>> various situations, so that other users could just add them to
> >>>> EQCurves.xml if they wanted them, but I believe that I have been told
> >>>> that this would be too complicated for general users. There are other
> >>>> solutions, such as users getting an EQ file from another user, putting
> >>>> it in "C:\Documents and Settings\Martyn\Application Data\Audacity" and
> >>>> then us searching for parseable files there), but that must be
> >>>> post-2.0, I guess. I imagine a link in the EQ taking a user to a web
> >>>> site where people can share EQ curves/files easily. Maybe there are
> >>>> some standards already out-there that I am not aware of for the format
> >>>> of these files. If not, maybe we can set one and call it ECSS (EQ
> >>>> Curve Sharing System) (pronounced 'Ex').
> >>>>
> >>>> I should stop now, since I probably don't have any readers. Let me
> >>>> know if you are interested in developing such a thing, or if I'm off-beam.
> >>>>
> >>>> TTFN
> >>>> Martyn
> >>>>
> >>>> Vaughan Johnson wrote:
> >>>>> It has a point in that if you want to just start over with something
> >>>>> completely different, it saves you moving lots of points. Rather than
> >>>>> the button, make it just another predefined curve and get rid of the
> >>>>> button?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Martyn Shaw wrote:
> >>>>>> Sam's fix is good, thanks Sam, so I committed.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I agree that a default 'flat' curve is both pointless, and pointless
> >>>>>> ;-), but if that's what people want...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And I'd say it's a curve of zero curvature!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> TTFN
> >>>>>> Martyn
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gale Andrews wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> | From Steve <[hidden email]> | Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:52:30
> >>>>>>> +0100
> >>>>>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Is it a bug? The button says "flat", it does not say "clear custom".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The workaround to saving a "flat curve" is as simple as pressing the
> >>>>>>>> flat button and setting at least one point on the "curve"(or pressing
> >>>>>>>> the "flat" button twice).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'm not sure why anyone would want to save a "flat curve";
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 1) Is "flat" a "curve"?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 2) Applying a flat curve does nothing. It reminds me of the "anechoic
> >>>>>>>> echo chamber" effect.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 3) It's important that a "fix" does not prevent the user from switching
> >>>>>>>> from the custom curve, to a saved (preset) curve and back to the custom
> >>>>>>>> curve (for comparing a "tweaked" curve with a saved version).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well, I've seen five "complaints" about this so thought I
> >>>>>>> had to record it at least so we can decide what to do
> >>>>>>> about it. I'm not sure the workarounds are that obvious,
> >>>>>>> and I think because people sense that pressing "Flat" may really not
> >>>>>>> be a "curve", they want the security of saving it as a "curve".
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If they try to do so now, I think you'll agree it really could look
> >>>>>>> like a bug (for example, you could be looking at the RIAA preset,
> >>>>>>> press Flat, Save it as "Flat", seems fine ("Flat" shows in "Select
> >>>>>>> curve" and the "flat curve"
> >>>>>>> shows in the graph). Click OK, go back into EQ and you
> >>>>>>> will see the last custom curve, click the Flat preset and the graph
> >>>>>>> does not change (Flat "curve" not saved).
> >>>>>>> Plus there is Martyn's point that pressing "Flat" shows
> >>>>>>> "Custom" then reselecting Custom shows something else.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> A different small issue on the Equalizer; there is a small display
> >>>>>>>> anomaly (I'm on Ubuntu 9.04 - not checked on other platforms). The
> >>>>>>>> words
> >>>>>>>> "Length of Filter" are slightly higher than the words "Linear Frequency
> >>>>>>>> Scale".
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Confirmed on Ubuntu 9.04 in CVS, but not a problem on Windows XP.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Gale
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Wed, 2009-09-30 at 11:15 +0800, sam lewis wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I noticed that,at the beginning of EqualizationDialog::OnClear,
> >>>>>>>>> EnvelopeUpdated is called. And this function update custom curve
> >>>>>>>>> according to the change of envelop. So I think call this function at
> >>>>>>>>> the end of EqualizationDialog::OnClear might solve this problem.
> >>>>>>>>> Did I make any mistakes?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>>>>> Sam
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Martyn Shaw
> >>>>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> EqualizationDialog::OnClear does not actually clear the custom curve,
> >>>>>>>>>> perhaps it should.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Select a curve, modify it a little so that 'custom' get selected,
> >>>>>>>>>> 'Flat', reselect 'custom'. See, still there! (Quicker way to
> >>>>>>>>>> demonstrate 'bug'.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> HTH
> >>>>>>>>>> Martyn
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> sam lewis wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>>>>>>> I am going to look at this bug. Any suggestions?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sam
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
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> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> >>>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> >>>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
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> >>>>>> Register now!
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> >>>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> >>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> >>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> >>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
> >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>> [hidden email]
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> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> >>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> >>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>
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> >>>

sam lewis-2

Re: P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

Reply Threaded

Hi Martyn,

I have just returned from my 'busy' holiday preparing for the IELTS
test. And it is quite interesting to find there are

already so much discussion in this thread. Some of the ideas do
interest me a lot, even though I cannot understand

them all clearly. I would like to continue to make improvement of the
EQ effect. I have checked the items on the

Features Request page
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Feature_Requests#Other_Improvements_to_Effects

and the idea of an "Eq Curve manager".

Would you please give me some advice about where to get start? Or, do
you think it is more proper for me to fix other

bugs on the release check list?

Thanks

Sam

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 8:30 AM, Steve <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 00:24 +0100, Martyn Shaw wrote:
>> Hi Steve
>>
>> Steve wrote:
>> > On Sun, 2009-10-04 at 00:36 +0100, Martyn Shaw wrote:
>> >> Hi there
>> >>
>> >> Steve wrote:
>> >>> The fix works perfectly here (Ubuntu 9.04).
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> There have been several requests on the forum for the ability to
>> >>> import/export Eq curves and I notice that it is also on the Features
>> >>> Request page, (albeit with a mere 3 votes)
>> >>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Feature_Requests#Other_Improvements_to_Effects
>> >>>
>> >>> While it is true that a processor/speaker/room dependant curve is
>> >>> unlikely to match someone else's requirements, there are situations
>> >>> where importing/exporting curves would be useful.
>> >>>
>> >>> Example - I record someone playing the pub piano on my Zoom H2 recorder
>> >>> and make a nice curve to Eq it to perfection. I probably don't want that
>> >>> (and 1000 other curves) in my list of pre-sets all the time, but if I
>> >>> can put it onto a disk with my backup raw recordings, then I have it in
>> >>> the event that I want it again.
>> >> This is a good idea, adding to what I had. Search the directory with
>> >> the data in for EQ files. I don't know how we would manage putting
>> >> them there in the first place though.
>> >>
>> >>> Example - "Hey Dad, I'm trying to Eq this track and can't get it quite
>> >>> right. Can you give me a hand with it - here's a short sample."
>> >>> "Sure thing Son. Try this Eq curve."
>> >> This is posting an EQ curve to someone, as a file, having them put it
>> >> somewhere sensible and then finding it. What if it has the same name
>> >> as one loaded earlier? Add a '-1' to the visible name?
>> >
>> > What I had in mind (but not being a programmer I don't know the
>> > feasibility), is as follows:
>> >
>> > When the user clicks on "Save As..." they are prompted to enter a name
>> > for the curve and it is written into the EQCurves.xml file. There is
>> > already checking for duplicate names and if the curve name exists they
>> > are asked if they want to overwrite the existing curve. (this part we
>> > have already).
>> >
>> > The new bits;
>> >
>> > IMPORT
>> > When the user click on the "Import" button, they browse for an XML file
>> > that should contain a curve definition in the same format as used by
>> > EQCurves.xml. At this point there are various options;
>>
>> Using an "Import" button is probably a better thing than us searching
>> automatically for all sensible places for EQ curves (which I think I
>> suggested) since it gives more user control, and won't add clutter to
>> the EQ list unless requested.
>>
>> > 1) The new-curve.xml file contains just one curve and it is read and
>> > becomes the "custom" curve. This can then be saved in EQCurves.xml in
>> > the normal way.
>>
>> We lose information that way (the name of the curve).
>
> Is that important? When the user has imported the curve they can then
> decide whether or not they want to save it (they probably do not know if
> it is what they want until they try it out). If they decide that they
> want to save it, they can name it to whatever they like.
>
> For example, you send me a curve called "bass-boost". I try it, I like
> it, I re-open Equalization and I save it (the current "custom" curve) as
> "martyns-bass-boost".
>
>
>
>> > 2) The new-curve.xml may contain one or more curves in the EQCurves.xml
>> > format. All valid curve names are then displayed and the user can the
>> > select which curves to import. The selected curves are then written
>> > directly into the EQCurves.xml file as new pre-sets. If a duplicate name
>> > is found it would probably be necessary to add a suffix such as
>> > "my-new-curve", "my-new-curve(1)", "my-new-curve(2)".
>>
>> This is a better alternative to (1). Good idea! I think that at the
>> moment EQCurves.xml only actually gets written when Audacity exits
>> normally, but I might be wrong on that. Needs a little investigation.
>
> Audacity 1.3 writes the custom curve to the EQCurves.xml file when the
> "Save As.." button is pressed. I've no idea how (if) this could be
> implemented in idea (2). In idea (1) saving would be no different from
> what we already have.
>
>
>
>>
>> > EXPORT
>> > When the user clicks on the "Export" button, the action is similar to
>> > the normal "Save As.." except that a browser is opened to allow the
>> > current curve to be written to a new .XML file.
>>
>> Or to re-name 'custom' for export (if modified) and then select a
>> number of other curves to be written to the file. So I could make and
>> save 'myCurve1', 'myCurve2' and modify if further, hit "Export", name
>> the current 'custom' as 'myCurve3' and then export 'myCurve1' and
>> 'myCurve3' to a file to send to my mate.
>>
>> > ALTERNATIVE - EQ CURVE MANAGER
>> > An alternative to all of this would be to have an external program or
>> > module as a "Eq-curves Manager". Ideally this could be launched from a
>> > button on the Equalization window. I would imagine this as a two window
>> > browser where the left window displays the curve names that exist in
>> > EQCurves.xml and the right window is populated by selecting another XML
>> > file. Curves could then be copied from one file to the other or deleted.
>> > As all the curve names are visible, there would be no need to add a
>> > suffix to duplicate names as that should be left to the user.
>>
>> That would be good, but well into the future. An entirely separate
>> project that would take a keen developer. Maybe a GSoC 2010 idea?
>
> An "Eq Curve manager" is certainly the most powerful solution, and
> probably the most work for that keen developer, but now that the "flat
> curve bug" is fixed I would not expect any of these "feature requests"
> to be taken up in the near future.
>
> Steve D
>
>
>> >>> Example - "I don't want my Eq pre-set list cluttered with all those RIAA
>> >>> type curves, but I'd rather not loose them forever just in case I do
>> >>> ever need them - I know, I'll save them to disk."
>> >> We should remove them from the code and make them available on the web
>> >> somewhere, so you can get them if you want them. Or install them as a
>> >> file on an install (remembering that not everybody has t'internet
>> >> always-on? Either way, remove them from the code, I think.
>> >>
>> >>> Martyn has thought about making an 'inverse RIAA' curve.
>> >> But I won't add that to the code, ever. I would add an 'invert'
>> >> button if I had time, that would invert any curve..
>> >>
>> >> I have thought
>> >>> about making a 'generic' set of curves (for quick 'ballpark' Eq). Yes
>> >>> these can be copied and pasted into EQCurves.xml but it would be much
>> >>> easier to have Import/Export.
>> >> Indeed. And (hopefully) somebody else has another set, their opinion.
>> >> It's a bit like Nyquist plug-ins, some standard ones and people able
>> >> to add others from various sources?
>> >>
>> >> Would somebody please create a wiki page that will be a
>> >> description/specification of what we have discussed/decided so far?
>> >> It's obviously not going to be in 2.0 so lets create a good design and
>> >> get it implemented later. The wiki page can become a Manual page in
>> >> the future.
>> >>
>> >>> Just so as not to forget, "Length of Filter" is still out of line with
>> >>> "Linear Frequency Scale".
>> >> Can you post an image of that please, for those of us without *nix?
>> >> Also in Graphic mode, where we have a fairly trivial alignment problem
>> >> in Win also.
>> >
>> > Screen shots attached. The alignment problem is only really visible in
>> > the "Draw curves" mode.
>>
>> Thanks Steve. Shouldn't have been part of this thread, will take it
>> to another.
>>
>> TTFN
>> Martyn
>>
>> > Steve D
>> >
>> >> Thanks
>> >> Martyn
>> >>
>> >>> Steve D
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 00:28 +0100, Martyn Shaw wrote:
>> >>>> Hi
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I disagree about getting rid of the 'flat' button and having a default
>> >>>> curve instead, for many reasons (which I think you'll agree with).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> And I've used this thread (below) to expand on some ideas for EQ
>> >>>> curves handling, maybe not the best place.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Many people will probably want to start off at 'flat' and build
>> >>>> something from there, so the button is useful.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> People should be able to remove the default curves and install their
>> >>>> own, without losing the ability to 'flat' and start again. This can
>> >>>> be done by replacing EQCurves.xml in C:\Documents and
>> >>>> Settings\Martyn\Application Data\Audacity (or wherever), so we need
>> >>>> the button.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The default curves are, mostly, not very useful I feel, unless you
>> >>>> have a record player system that has no default EQ and play/record old
>> >>>> records with unusual EQ. Most record player systems these days will
>> >>>> have RIAA built in, so in this (rather specialist) case of people
>> >>>> digitising old records with a modern record playing system I guess we
>> >>>> really need an 'inverse RIAA' in the default list, or (better) a means
>> >>>> (button) to 'invert' any curve (which is, I believe, on the 'request'
>> >>>> list but I have never got around to doing it, but would be good). (I
>> >>>> also have an idea to generate an EQ curve from a spectrum analysis,
>> >>>> but that should probably be a plug-in that I haven't even started.)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I would like it if users would distribute their own EQ curves for
>> >>>> various situations, so that other users could just add them to
>> >>>> EQCurves.xml if they wanted them, but I believe that I have been told
>> >>>> that this would be too complicated for general users. There are other
>> >>>> solutions, such as users getting an EQ file from another user, putting
>> >>>> it in "C:\Documents and Settings\Martyn\Application Data\Audacity" and
>> >>>> then us searching for parseable files there), but that must be
>> >>>> post-2.0, I guess. I imagine a link in the EQ taking a user to a web
>> >>>> site where people can share EQ curves/files easily. Maybe there are
>> >>>> some standards already out-there that I am not aware of for the format
>> >>>> of these files. If not, maybe we can set one and call it ECSS (EQ
>> >>>> Curve Sharing System) (pronounced 'Ex').
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I should stop now, since I probably don't have any readers. Let me
>> >>>> know if you are interested in developing such a thing, or if I'm off-beam.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> TTFN
>> >>>> Martyn
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Vaughan Johnson wrote:
>> >>>>> It has a point in that if you want to just start over with something
>> >>>>> completely different, it saves you moving lots of points. Rather than
>> >>>>> the button, make it just another predefined curve and get rid of the
>> >>>>> button?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Martyn Shaw wrote:
>> >>>>>> Sam's fix is good, thanks Sam, so I committed.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I agree that a default 'flat' curve is both pointless, and pointless
>> >>>>>> ;-), but if that's what people want...
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> And I'd say it's a curve of zero curvature!
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> TTFN
>> >>>>>> Martyn
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Gale Andrews wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> | From Steve <[hidden email]> | Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:52:30
>> >>>>>>> +0100
>> >>>>>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Is it a bug? The button says "flat", it does not say "clear custom".
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> The workaround to saving a "flat curve" is as simple as pressing the
>> >>>>>>>> flat button and setting at least one point on the "curve"(or pressing
>> >>>>>>>> the "flat" button twice).
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I'm not sure why anyone would want to save a "flat curve";
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> 1) Is "flat" a "curve"?
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> 2) Applying a flat curve does nothing. It reminds me of the "anechoic
>> >>>>>>>> echo chamber" effect.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> 3) It's important that a "fix" does not prevent the user from switching
>> >>>>>>>> from the custom curve, to a saved (preset) curve and back to the custom
>> >>>>>>>> curve (for comparing a "tweaked" curve with a saved version).
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Well, I've seen five "complaints" about this so thought I
>> >>>>>>> had to record it at least so we can decide what to do
>> >>>>>>> about it. I'm not sure the workarounds are that obvious,
>> >>>>>>> and I think because people sense that pressing "Flat" may really not
>> >>>>>>> be a "curve", they want the security of saving it as a "curve".
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> If they try to do so now, I think you'll agree it really could look
>> >>>>>>> like a bug (for example, you could be looking at the RIAA preset,
>> >>>>>>> press Flat, Save it as "Flat", seems fine ("Flat" shows in "Select
>> >>>>>>> curve" and the "flat curve"
>> >>>>>>> shows in the graph). Click OK, go back into EQ and you
>> >>>>>>> will see the last custom curve, click the Flat preset and the graph
>> >>>>>>> does not change (Flat "curve" not saved).
>> >>>>>>> Plus there is Martyn's point that pressing "Flat" shows
>> >>>>>>> "Custom" then reselecting Custom shows something else.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> A different small issue on the Equalizer; there is a small display
>> >>>>>>>> anomaly (I'm on Ubuntu 9.04 - not checked on other platforms). The
>> >>>>>>>> words
>> >>>>>>>> "Length of Filter" are slightly higher than the words "Linear Frequency
>> >>>>>>>> Scale".
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Confirmed on Ubuntu 9.04 in CVS, but not a problem on Windows XP.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Gale
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, 2009-09-30 at 11:15 +0800, sam lewis wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I noticed that,at the beginning of EqualizationDialog::OnClear,
>> >>>>>>>>> EnvelopeUpdated is called. And this function update custom curve
>> >>>>>>>>> according to the change of envelop. So I think call this function at
>> >>>>>>>>> the end of EqualizationDialog::OnClear might solve this problem.
>> >>>>>>>>> Did I make any mistakes?
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks
>> >>>>>>>>> Sam
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Martyn Shaw
>> >>>>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> EqualizationDialog::OnClear does not actually clear the custom curve,
>> >>>>>>>>>> perhaps it should.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Select a curve, modify it a little so that 'custom' get selected,
>> >>>>>>>>>> 'Flat', reselect 'custom'. See, still there! (Quicker way to
>> >>>>>>>>>> demonstrate 'bug'.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> HTH
>> >>>>>>>>>> Martyn
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> sam lewis wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I am going to look at this bug. Any suggestions?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sam
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> >>>>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> >>>>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
>> >>>>>>> stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009.
>> >>>>>>> Register now!
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>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>> >>>>>>> [hidden email]
>> >>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
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>> >>>>>>
>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Martyn Shaw-2

Re: P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

Reply Threaded

Hi Sam

Good to see you back, hope you had a good time.

It would be really good if you could stick to bug-fixing at this time,
and move on to new features when we have 2.0 out. New features aren't
going in to 2.0 anyway.

The bug you mentioned in Noise removal could be worth a stab!

HTH
Martyn

sam lewis wrote:

> Hi Martyn,
>
> I have just returned from my 'busy' holiday preparing for the IELTS
> test. And it is quite interesting to find there are
>
> already so much discussion in this thread. Some of the ideas do
> interest me a lot, even though I cannot understand
>
> them all clearly. I would like to continue to make improvement of the
> EQ effect. I have checked the items on the
>
> Features Request page
> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Feature_Requests#Other_Improvements_to_Effects
>
> and the idea of an "Eq Curve manager".
>
> Would you please give me some advice about where to get start? Or, do
> you think it is more proper for me to fix other
>
> bugs on the release check list?
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Sam
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 8:30 AM, Steve <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 00:24 +0100, Martyn Shaw wrote:
>>> Hi Steve
>>>
>>> Steve wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 2009-10-04 at 00:36 +0100, Martyn Shaw wrote:
>>>>> Hi there
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve wrote:
>>>>>> The fix works perfectly here (Ubuntu 9.04).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There have been several requests on the forum for the ability to
>>>>>> import/export Eq curves and I notice that it is also on the Features
>>>>>> Request page, (albeit with a mere 3 votes)
>>>>>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Feature_Requests#Other_Improvements_to_Effects
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While it is true that a processor/speaker/room dependant curve is
>>>>>> unlikely to match someone else's requirements, there are situations
>>>>>> where importing/exporting curves would be useful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Example - I record someone playing the pub piano on my Zoom H2 recorder
>>>>>> and make a nice curve to Eq it to perfection. I probably don't want that
>>>>>> (and 1000 other curves) in my list of pre-sets all the time, but if I
>>>>>> can put it onto a disk with my backup raw recordings, then I have it in
>>>>>> the event that I want it again.
>>>>> This is a good idea, adding to what I had. Search the directory with
>>>>> the data in for EQ files. I don't know how we would manage putting
>>>>> them there in the first place though.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Example - "Hey Dad, I'm trying to Eq this track and can't get it quite
>>>>>> right. Can you give me a hand with it - here's a short sample."
>>>>>> "Sure thing Son. Try this Eq curve."
>>>>> This is posting an EQ curve to someone, as a file, having them put it
>>>>> somewhere sensible and then finding it. What if it has the same name
>>>>> as one loaded earlier? Add a '-1' to the visible name?
>>>> What I had in mind (but not being a programmer I don't know the
>>>> feasibility), is as follows:
>>>>
>>>> When the user clicks on "Save As..." they are prompted to enter a name
>>>> for the curve and it is written into the EQCurves.xml file. There is
>>>> already checking for duplicate names and if the curve name exists they
>>>> are asked if they want to overwrite the existing curve. (this part we
>>>> have already).
>>>>
>>>> The new bits;
>>>>
>>>> IMPORT
>>>> When the user click on the "Import" button, they browse for an XML file
>>>> that should contain a curve definition in the same format as used by
>>>> EQCurves.xml. At this point there are various options;
>>> Using an "Import" button is probably a better thing than us searching
>>> automatically for all sensible places for EQ curves (which I think I
>>> suggested) since it gives more user control, and won't add clutter to
>>> the EQ list unless requested.
>>>
>>>> 1) The new-curve.xml file contains just one curve and it is read and
>>>> becomes the "custom" curve. This can then be saved in EQCurves.xml in
>>>> the normal way.
>>> We lose information that way (the name of the curve).
>> Is that important? When the user has imported the curve they can then
>> decide whether or not they want to save it (they probably do not know if
>> it is what they want until they try it out). If they decide that they
>> want to save it, they can name it to whatever they like.
>>
>> For example, you send me a curve called "bass-boost". I try it, I like
>> it, I re-open Equalization and I save it (the current "custom" curve) as
>> "martyns-bass-boost".
>>
>>
>>
>>>> 2) The new-curve.xml may contain one or more curves in the EQCurves.xml
>>>> format. All valid curve names are then displayed and the user can the
>>>> select which curves to import. The selected curves are then written
>>>> directly into the EQCurves.xml file as new pre-sets. If a duplicate name
>>>> is found it would probably be necessary to add a suffix such as
>>>> "my-new-curve", "my-new-curve(1)", "my-new-curve(2)".
>>> This is a better alternative to (1). Good idea! I think that at the
>>> moment EQCurves.xml only actually gets written when Audacity exits
>>> normally, but I might be wrong on that. Needs a little investigation.
>> Audacity 1.3 writes the custom curve to the EQCurves.xml file when the
>> "Save As.." button is pressed. I've no idea how (if) this could be
>> implemented in idea (2). In idea (1) saving would be no different from
>> what we already have.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> EXPORT
>>>> When the user clicks on the "Export" button, the action is similar to
>>>> the normal "Save As.." except that a browser is opened to allow the
>>>> current curve to be written to a new .XML file.
>>> Or to re-name 'custom' for export (if modified) and then select a
>>> number of other curves to be written to the file. So I could make and
>>> save 'myCurve1', 'myCurve2' and modify if further, hit "Export", name
>>> the current 'custom' as 'myCurve3' and then export 'myCurve1' and
>>> 'myCurve3' to a file to send to my mate.
>>>
>>>> ALTERNATIVE - EQ CURVE MANAGER
>>>> An alternative to all of this would be to have an external program or
>>>> module as a "Eq-curves Manager". Ideally this could be launched from a
>>>> button on the Equalization window. I would imagine this as a two window
>>>> browser where the left window displays the curve names that exist in
>>>> EQCurves.xml and the right window is populated by selecting another XML
>>>> file. Curves could then be copied from one file to the other or deleted.
>>>> As all the curve names are visible, there would be no need to add a
>>>> suffix to duplicate names as that should be left to the user.
>>> That would be good, but well into the future. An entirely separate
>>> project that would take a keen developer. Maybe a GSoC 2010 idea?
>> An "Eq Curve manager" is certainly the most powerful solution, and
>> probably the most work for that keen developer, but now that the "flat
>> curve bug" is fixed I would not expect any of these "feature requests"
>> to be taken up in the near future.
>>
>> Steve D
>>
>>
>>>>>> Example - "I don't want my Eq pre-set list cluttered with all those RIAA
>>>>>> type curves, but I'd rather not loose them forever just in case I do
>>>>>> ever need them - I know, I'll save them to disk."
>>>>> We should remove them from the code and make them available on the web
>>>>> somewhere, so you can get them if you want them. Or install them as a
>>>>> file on an install (remembering that not everybody has t'internet
>>>>> always-on? Either way, remove them from the code, I think.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Martyn has thought about making an 'inverse RIAA' curve.
>>>>> But I won't add that to the code, ever. I would add an 'invert'
>>>>> button if I had time, that would invert any curve..
>>>>>
>>>>> I have thought
>>>>>> about making a 'generic' set of curves (for quick 'ballpark' Eq). Yes
>>>>>> these can be copied and pasted into EQCurves.xml but it would be much
>>>>>> easier to have Import/Export.
>>>>> Indeed. And (hopefully) somebody else has another set, their opinion.
>>>>> It's a bit like Nyquist plug-ins, some standard ones and people able
>>>>> to add others from various sources?
>>>>>
>>>>> Would somebody please create a wiki page that will be a
>>>>> description/specification of what we have discussed/decided so far?
>>>>> It's obviously not going to be in 2.0 so lets create a good design and
>>>>> get it implemented later. The wiki page can become a Manual page in
>>>>> the future.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just so as not to forget, "Length of Filter" is still out of line with
>>>>>> "Linear Frequency Scale".
>>>>> Can you post an image of that please, for those of us without *nix?
>>>>> Also in Graphic mode, where we have a fairly trivial alignment problem
>>>>> in Win also.
>>>> Screen shots attached. The alignment problem is only really visible in
>>>> the "Draw curves" mode.
>>> Thanks Steve. Shouldn't have been part of this thread, will take it
>>> to another.
>>>
>>> TTFN
>>> Martyn
>>>
>>>> Steve D
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Martyn
>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve D
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 00:28 +0100, Martyn Shaw wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I disagree about getting rid of the 'flat' button and having a default
>>>>>>> curve instead, for many reasons (which I think you'll agree with).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And I've used this thread (below) to expand on some ideas for EQ
>>>>>>> curves handling, maybe not the best place.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Many people will probably want to start off at 'flat' and build
>>>>>>> something from there, so the button is useful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People should be able to remove the default curves and install their
>>>>>>> own, without losing the ability to 'flat' and start again. This can
>>>>>>> be done by replacing EQCurves.xml in C:\Documents and
>>>>>>> Settings\Martyn\Application Data\Audacity (or wherever), so we need
>>>>>>> the button.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The default curves are, mostly, not very useful I feel, unless you
>>>>>>> have a record player system that has no default EQ and play/record old
>>>>>>> records with unusual EQ. Most record player systems these days will
>>>>>>> have RIAA built in, so in this (rather specialist) case of people
>>>>>>> digitising old records with a modern record playing system I guess we
>>>>>>> really need an 'inverse RIAA' in the default list, or (better) a means
>>>>>>> (button) to 'invert' any curve (which is, I believe, on the 'request'
>>>>>>> list but I have never got around to doing it, but would be good). (I
>>>>>>> also have an idea to generate an EQ curve from a spectrum analysis,
>>>>>>> but that should probably be a plug-in that I haven't even started.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would like it if users would distribute their own EQ curves for
>>>>>>> various situations, so that other users could just add them to
>>>>>>> EQCurves.xml if they wanted them, but I believe that I have been told
>>>>>>> that this would be too complicated for general users. There are other
>>>>>>> solutions, such as users getting an EQ file from another user, putting
>>>>>>> it in "C:\Documents and Settings\Martyn\Application Data\Audacity" and
>>>>>>> then us searching for parseable files there), but that must be
>>>>>>> post-2.0, I guess. I imagine a link in the EQ taking a user to a web
>>>>>>> site where people can share EQ curves/files easily. Maybe there are
>>>>>>> some standards already out-there that I am not aware of for the format
>>>>>>> of these files. If not, maybe we can set one and call it ECSS (EQ
>>>>>>> Curve Sharing System) (pronounced 'Ex').
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I should stop now, since I probably don't have any readers. Let me
>>>>>>> know if you are interested in developing such a thing, or if I'm off-beam.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TTFN
>>>>>>> Martyn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Vaughan Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>> It has a point in that if you want to just start over with something
>>>>>>>> completely different, it saves you moving lots of points. Rather than
>>>>>>>> the button, make it just another predefined curve and get rid of the
>>>>>>>> button?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Martyn Shaw wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Sam's fix is good, thanks Sam, so I committed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree that a default 'flat' curve is both pointless, and pointless
>>>>>>>>> ;-), but if that's what people want...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And I'd say it's a curve of zero curvature!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> TTFN
>>>>>>>>> Martyn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> | From Steve <[hidden email]> | Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:52:30
>>>>>>>>>> +0100
>>>>>>>>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Is it a bug? The button says "flat", it does not say "clear custom".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The workaround to saving a "flat curve" is as simple as pressing the
>>>>>>>>>>> flat button and setting at least one point on the "curve"(or pressing
>>>>>>>>>>> the "flat" button twice).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure why anyone would want to save a "flat curve";
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1) Is "flat" a "curve"?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2) Applying a flat curve does nothing. It reminds me of the "anechoic
>>>>>>>>>>> echo chamber" effect.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 3) It's important that a "fix" does not prevent the user from switching
>>>>>>>>>>> from the custom curve, to a saved (preset) curve and back to the custom
>>>>>>>>>>> curve (for comparing a "tweaked" curve with a saved version).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, I've seen five "complaints" about this so thought I
>>>>>>>>>> had to record it at least so we can decide what to do
>>>>>>>>>> about it. I'm not sure the workarounds are that obvious,
>>>>>>>>>> and I think because people sense that pressing "Flat" may really not
>>>>>>>>>> be a "curve", they want the security of saving it as a "curve".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If they try to do so now, I think you'll agree it really could look
>>>>>>>>>> like a bug (for example, you could be looking at the RIAA preset,
>>>>>>>>>> press Flat, Save it as "Flat", seems fine ("Flat" shows in "Select
>>>>>>>>>> curve" and the "flat curve"
>>>>>>>>>> shows in the graph). Click OK, go back into EQ and you
>>>>>>>>>> will see the last custom curve, click the Flat preset and the graph
>>>>>>>>>> does not change (Flat "curve" not saved).
>>>>>>>>>> Plus there is Martyn's point that pressing "Flat" shows
>>>>>>>>>> "Custom" then reselecting Custom shows something else.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A different small issue on the Equalizer; there is a small display
>>>>>>>>>>> anomaly (I'm on Ubuntu 9.04 - not checked on other platforms). The
>>>>>>>>>>> words
>>>>>>>>>>> "Length of Filter" are slightly higher than the words "Linear Frequency
>>>>>>>>>>> Scale".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Confirmed on Ubuntu 9.04 in CVS, but not a problem on Windows XP.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 2009-09-30 at 11:15 +0800, sam lewis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I noticed that,at the beginning of EqualizationDialog::OnClear,
>>>>>>>>>>>> EnvelopeUpdated is called. And this function update custom curve
>>>>>>>>>>>> according to the change of envelop. So I think call this function at
>>>>>>>>>>>> the end of EqualizationDialog::OnClear might solve this problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Did I make any mistakes?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Martyn Shaw
>>>>>>>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> EqualizationDialog::OnClear does not actually clear the custom curve,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps it should.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Select a curve, modify it a little so that 'custom' get selected,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'Flat', reselect 'custom'. See, still there! (Quicker way to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> demonstrate 'bug'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Martyn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sam lewis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going to look at this bug. Any suggestions?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>>>>>>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>>>>>>>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
>>>>>>>>>> stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009.
>>>>>>>>>> Register now!
>>>>>>>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>>>>>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>>>>>>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
>>>>>>>>> stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009.
>>>>>>>>> Register now!
>>>>>>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>>>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>>>>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>>>>>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
>>>>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>>>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>>>>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
>>>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> audacity-devel mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
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>> _______________________________________________
>> audacity-devel mailing list
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>>
>

sam lewis-2

Re: P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve

Reply Threaded

Hi Martyn,

I remember I have mentioned the bug

'SBSMS, Change Speed, Change Tempo do not keep labels in sync'.

Do you mean to refer to this one when mentioning ' the bug you
mentioned in Noise removal' ?

I realized the problems related to labels are far more complex than I
had thougth and a little frustrating when multi tracks

exist. Is this bug ' P3 Truncate Silence does not keep labels in
sync' a little simpler? Because it seems not to cover multi track

cases. If so, I would like to work on latter first and start looking
at the former one when I am more familiar with Audacity.

Would you please give some your advice on this?

Thanks.
Sam

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 5:28 AM, Martyn Shaw
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Sam
>
> Good to see you back, hope you had a good time.
>
> It would be really good if you could stick to bug-fixing at this time, and
> move on to new features when we have 2.0 out. New features aren't going in
> to 2.0 anyway.
>
> The bug you mentioned in Noise removal could be worth a stab!
>
> HTH
> Martyn
>
> sam lewis wrote:
>>
>> Hi Martyn,
>>
>> I have just returned from my 'busy' holiday preparing for the IELTS
>> test. And it is quite interesting to find there are
>>
>> already so much discussion in this thread. Some of the ideas do
>> interest me a lot, even though I cannot understand
>>
>> them all clearly. I would like to continue to make improvement of the
>> EQ effect. I have checked the items on the
>>
>> Features Request page
>>
>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Feature_Requests#Other_Improvements_to_Effects
>>
>> and the idea of an "Eq Curve manager".
>>
>> Would you please give me some advice about where to get start? Or, do
>> you think it is more proper for me to fix other
>>
>> bugs on the release check list?
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Sam
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 8:30 AM, Steve <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 00:24 +0100, Martyn Shaw wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Steve
>>>>
>>>> Steve wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 2009-10-04 at 00:36 +0100, Martyn Shaw wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi there
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fix works perfectly here (Ubuntu 9.04).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There have been several requests on the forum for the ability to
>>>>>>> import/export Eq curves and I notice that it is also on the Features
>>>>>>> Request page, (albeit with a mere 3 votes)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Feature_Requests#Other_Improvements_to_Effects
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While it is true that a processor/speaker/room dependant curve is
>>>>>>> unlikely to match someone else's requirements, there are situations
>>>>>>> where importing/exporting curves would be useful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Example - I record someone playing the pub piano on my Zoom H2
>>>>>>> recorder
>>>>>>> and make a nice curve to Eq it to perfection. I probably don't want
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> (and 1000 other curves) in my list of pre-sets all the time, but if I
>>>>>>> can put it onto a disk with my backup raw recordings, then I have it
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the event that I want it again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a good idea, adding to what I had. Search the directory with
>>>>>> the data in for EQ files. I don't know how we would manage putting
>>>>>> them there in the first place though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Example - "Hey Dad, I'm trying to Eq this track and can't get it
>>>>>>> quite
>>>>>>> right. Can you give me a hand with it - here's a short sample."
>>>>>>> "Sure thing Son. Try this Eq curve."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is posting an EQ curve to someone, as a file, having them put it
>>>>>> somewhere sensible and then finding it. What if it has the same name
>>>>>> as one loaded earlier? Add a '-1' to the visible name?
>>>>>
>>>>> What I had in mind (but not being a programmer I don't know the
>>>>> feasibility), is as follows:
>>>>>
>>>>> When the user clicks on "Save As..." they are prompted to enter a name
>>>>> for the curve and it is written into the EQCurves.xml file. There is
>>>>> already checking for duplicate names and if the curve name exists they
>>>>> are asked if they want to overwrite the existing curve. (this part we
>>>>> have already).
>>>>>
>>>>> The new bits;
>>>>>
>>>>> IMPORT
>>>>> When the user click on the "Import" button, they browse for an XML file
>>>>> that should contain a curve definition in the same format as used by
>>>>> EQCurves.xml. At this point there are various options;
>>>>
>>>> Using an "Import" button is probably a better thing than us searching
>>>> automatically for all sensible places for EQ curves (which I think I
>>>> suggested) since it gives more user control, and won't add clutter to
>>>> the EQ list unless requested.
>>>>
>>>>> 1) The new-curve.xml file contains just one curve and it is read and
>>>>> becomes the "custom" curve. This can then be saved in EQCurves.xml in
>>>>> the normal way.
>>>>
>>>> We lose information that way (the name of the curve).
>>>
>>> Is that important? When the user has imported the curve they can then
>>> decide whether or not they want to save it (they probably do not know if
>>> it is what they want until they try it out). If they decide that they
>>> want to save it, they can name it to whatever they like.
>>>
>>> For example, you send me a curve called "bass-boost". I try it, I like
>>> it, I re-open Equalization and I save it (the current "custom" curve) as
>>> "martyns-bass-boost".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> 2) The new-curve.xml may contain one or more curves in the EQCurves.xml
>>>>> format. All valid curve names are then displayed and the user can the
>>>>> select which curves to import. The selected curves are then written
>>>>> directly into the EQCurves.xml file as new pre-sets. If a duplicate
>>>>> name
>>>>> is found it would probably be necessary to add a suffix such as
>>>>> "my-new-curve", "my-new-curve(1)", "my-new-curve(2)".
>>>>
>>>> This is a better alternative to (1). Good idea! I think that at the
>>>> moment EQCurves.xml only actually gets written when Audacity exits
>>>> normally, but I might be wrong on that. Needs a little investigation.
>>>
>>> Audacity 1.3 writes the custom curve to the EQCurves.xml file when the
>>> "Save As.." button is pressed. I've no idea how (if) this could be
>>> implemented in idea (2). In idea (1) saving would be no different from
>>> what we already have.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> EXPORT
>>>>> When the user clicks on the "Export" button, the action is similar to
>>>>> the normal "Save As.." except that a browser is opened to allow the
>>>>> current curve to be written to a new .XML file.
>>>>
>>>> Or to re-name 'custom' for export (if modified) and then select a
>>>> number of other curves to be written to the file. So I could make and
>>>> save 'myCurve1', 'myCurve2' and modify if further, hit "Export", name
>>>> the current 'custom' as 'myCurve3' and then export 'myCurve1' and
>>>> 'myCurve3' to a file to send to my mate.
>>>>
>>>>> ALTERNATIVE - EQ CURVE MANAGER
>>>>> An alternative to all of this would be to have an external program or
>>>>> module as a "Eq-curves Manager". Ideally this could be launched from a
>>>>> button on the Equalization window. I would imagine this as a two window
>>>>> browser where the left window displays the curve names that exist in
>>>>> EQCurves.xml and the right window is populated by selecting another XML
>>>>> file. Curves could then be copied from one file to the other or
>>>>> deleted.
>>>>> As all the curve names are visible, there would be no need to add a
>>>>> suffix to duplicate names as that should be left to the user.
>>>>
>>>> That would be good, but well into the future. An entirely separate
>>>> project that would take a keen developer. Maybe a GSoC 2010 idea?
>>>
>>> An "Eq Curve manager" is certainly the most powerful solution, and
>>> probably the most work for that keen developer, but now that the "flat
>>> curve bug" is fixed I would not expect any of these "feature requests"
>>> to be taken up in the near future.
>>>
>>> Steve D
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> Example - "I don't want my Eq pre-set list cluttered with all those
>>>>>>> RIAA
>>>>>>> type curves, but I'd rather not loose them forever just in case I do
>>>>>>> ever need them - I know, I'll save them to disk."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We should remove them from the code and make them available on the web
>>>>>> somewhere, so you can get them if you want them. Or install them as a
>>>>>> file on an install (remembering that not everybody has t'internet
>>>>>> always-on? Either way, remove them from the code, I think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Martyn has thought about making an 'inverse RIAA' curve.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I won't add that to the code, ever. I would add an 'invert'
>>>>>> button if I had time, that would invert any curve..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have thought
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> about making a 'generic' set of curves (for quick 'ballpark' Eq). Yes
>>>>>>> these can be copied and pasted into EQCurves.xml but it would be much
>>>>>>> easier to have Import/Export.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed. And (hopefully) somebody else has another set, their opinion.
>>>>>> It's a bit like Nyquist plug-ins, some standard ones and people able
>>>>>> to add others from various sources?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would somebody please create a wiki page that will be a
>>>>>> description/specification of what we have discussed/decided so far?
>>>>>> It's obviously not going to be in 2.0 so lets create a good design and
>>>>>> get it implemented later. The wiki page can become a Manual page in
>>>>>> the future.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just so as not to forget, "Length of Filter" is still out of line
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> "Linear Frequency Scale".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you post an image of that please, for those of us without *nix?
>>>>>> Also in Graphic mode, where we have a fairly trivial alignment problem
>>>>>> in Win also.
>>>>>
>>>>> Screen shots attached. The alignment problem is only really visible in
>>>>> the "Draw curves" mode.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Steve. Shouldn't have been part of this thread, will take it
>>>> to another.
>>>>
>>>> TTFN
>>>> Martyn
>>>>
>>>>> Steve D
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Martyn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve D
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 2009-10-02 at 00:28 +0100, Martyn Shaw wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I disagree about getting rid of the 'flat' button and having a
>>>>>>>> default
>>>>>>>> curve instead, for many reasons (which I think you'll agree with).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And I've used this thread (below) to expand on some ideas for EQ
>>>>>>>> curves handling, maybe not the best place.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Many people will probably want to start off at 'flat' and build
>>>>>>>> something from there, so the button is useful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> People should be able to remove the default curves and install their
>>>>>>>> own, without losing the ability to 'flat' and start again. This can
>>>>>>>> be done by replacing EQCurves.xml in C:\Documents and
>>>>>>>> Settings\Martyn\Application Data\Audacity (or wherever), so we need
>>>>>>>> the button.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The default curves are, mostly, not very useful I feel, unless you
>>>>>>>> have a record player system that has no default EQ and play/record
>>>>>>>> old
>>>>>>>> records with unusual EQ. Most record player systems these days will
>>>>>>>> have RIAA built in, so in this (rather specialist) case of people
>>>>>>>> digitising old records with a modern record playing system I guess
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> really need an 'inverse RIAA' in the default list, or (better) a
>>>>>>>> means
>>>>>>>> (button) to 'invert' any curve (which is, I believe, on the
>>>>>>>> 'request'
>>>>>>>> list but I have never got around to doing it, but would be good).
>>>>>>>> (I
>>>>>>>> also have an idea to generate an EQ curve from a spectrum analysis,
>>>>>>>> but that should probably be a plug-in that I haven't even started.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would like it if users would distribute their own EQ curves for
>>>>>>>> various situations, so that other users could just add them to
>>>>>>>> EQCurves.xml if they wanted them, but I believe that I have been
>>>>>>>> told
>>>>>>>> that this would be too complicated for general users. There are
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> solutions, such as users getting an EQ file from another user,
>>>>>>>> putting
>>>>>>>> it in "C:\Documents and Settings\Martyn\Application Data\Audacity"
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> then us searching for parseable files there), but that must be
>>>>>>>> post-2.0, I guess. I imagine a link in the EQ taking a user to a
>>>>>>>> web
>>>>>>>> site where people can share EQ curves/files easily. Maybe there are
>>>>>>>> some standards already out-there that I am not aware of for the
>>>>>>>> format
>>>>>>>> of these files. If not, maybe we can set one and call it ECSS (EQ
>>>>>>>> Curve Sharing System) (pronounced 'Ex').
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I should stop now, since I probably don't have any readers. Let me
>>>>>>>> know if you are interested in developing such a thing, or if I'm
>>>>>>>> off-beam.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TTFN
>>>>>>>> Martyn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vaughan Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It has a point in that if you want to just start over with
>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>> completely different, it saves you moving lots of points. Rather
>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> the button, make it just another predefined curve and get rid of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> button?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Martyn Shaw wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sam's fix is good, thanks Sam, so I committed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I agree that a default 'flat' curve is both pointless, and
>>>>>>>>>> pointless
>>>>>>>>>> ;-), but if that's what people want...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And I'd say it's a curve of zero curvature!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> TTFN
>>>>>>>>>> Martyn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Gale Andrews wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> | From Steve <[hidden email]> | Wed, 30 Sep 2009
>>>>>>>>>>> 17:52:30
>>>>>>>>>>> +0100
>>>>>>>>>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] P4 EQ: Can't save a flat curve
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it a bug? The button says "flat", it does not say "clear
>>>>>>>>>>>> custom".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The workaround to saving a "flat curve" is as simple as pressing
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> flat button and setting at least one point on the "curve"(or
>>>>>>>>>>>> pressing
>>>>>>>>>>>> the "flat" button twice).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure why anyone would want to save a "flat curve";
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) Is "flat" a "curve"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) Applying a flat curve does nothing. It reminds me of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> "anechoic
>>>>>>>>>>>> echo chamber" effect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) It's important that a "fix" does not prevent the user from
>>>>>>>>>>>> switching
>>>>>>>>>>>> from the custom curve, to a saved (preset) curve and back to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> custom
>>>>>>>>>>>> curve (for comparing a "tweaked" curve with a saved version).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I've seen five "complaints" about this so thought I
>>>>>>>>>>> had to record it at least so we can decide what to do
>>>>>>>>>>> about it. I'm not sure the workarounds are that obvious,
>>>>>>>>>>> and I think because people sense that pressing "Flat" may really
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> be a "curve", they want the security of saving it as a "curve".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If they try to do so now, I think you'll agree it really could
>>>>>>>>>>> look
>>>>>>>>>>> like a bug (for example, you could be looking at the RIAA preset,
>>>>>>>>>>> press Flat, Save it as "Flat", seems fine ("Flat" shows in
>>>>>>>>>>> "Select
>>>>>>>>>>> curve" and the "flat curve"
>>>>>>>>>>> shows in the graph). Click OK, go back into EQ and you
>>>>>>>>>>> will see the last custom curve, click the Flat preset and the
>>>>>>>>>>> graph
>>>>>>>>>>> does not change (Flat "curve" not saved).
>>>>>>>>>>> Plus there is Martyn's point that pressing "Flat" shows
>>>>>>>>>>> "Custom" then reselecting Custom shows something else.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> A different small issue on the Equalizer; there is a small
>>>>>>>>>>>> display
>>>>>>>>>>>> anomaly (I'm on Ubuntu 9.04 - not checked on other platforms).
>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>> words
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Length of Filter" are slightly higher than the words "Linear
>>>>>>>>>>>> Frequency
>>>>>>>>>>>> Scale".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Confirmed on Ubuntu 9.04 in CVS, but not a problem on Windows XP.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Gale
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 2009-09-30 at 11:15 +0800, sam lewis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I noticed that,at the beginning of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> EqualizationDialog::OnClear,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> EnvelopeUpdated is called. And this function update custom
>>>>>>>>>>>>> curve
>>>>>>>>>>>>> according to the change of envelop. So I think call this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> function at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the end of EqualizationDialog::OnClear might solve this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did I make any mistakes?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Martyn Shaw
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EqualizationDialog::OnClear does not actually clear the custom
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> curve,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps it should.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Select a curve, modify it a little so that 'custom' get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> selected,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'Flat', reselect 'custom'. See, still there! (Quicker way to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demonstrate 'bug'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Martyn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sam lewis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going to look at this bug. Any suggestions?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
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