P2: When Time and Label Tracks present and linking on, cannot delete a region by selecting only in the label track

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André Pinto

P2: When Time and Label Tracks present and linking on, cannot delete a region by selecting only in the label track

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This should now be fixed.

Thanks to the "bug reporter" (I guess it was Gale).

André.

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Martyn Shaw-2

Re: P2: When Time and Label Tracks present and linking on, cannot delete a region by selecting only in the label track

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Another one confirmed here.
Martyn

André Pinto wrote:

> This should now be fixed.
>
> Thanks to the "bug reporter" (I guess it was Gale).
>
> André.
>
>
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Gale (Audacity Team)

Re: P2: When Time and Label Tracks present and linking on, cannot delete a region by selecting only in the label track

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André Pinto said:
> This should now be fixed.
>
> Thanks to the "bug reporter" (I guess it was Gale).

Hi André

It was me, but in Unicode Release the same issue is still there.


Gale
 
André Pinto

Re: P2: When Time and Label Tracks present and linking on, cannot delete a region by selecting only in the label track

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Hi Gale,

Thanks for the reply. Probably I misunderstood the bug. I thought it was this one:

- Create a timetrack, a wavetrack and a label.
- Select the label (press Enter if you went to the edit label name field). A vertical selection should be created.
- Press Delete.

Before my commit the Clear was not working in this situation. That was the bug I fixed and I thought it was the one on the Checklist.

But now I guess I already know what that release checklist bug is (Selecting only a region within the label track and clearing it). I've commited a fix for it. Can you confirm this is fixed please?

About the commit my condition to verify if the labeltrack is part of a group was checking if there is a track before it and checking if that track is not a labeltrack neither a timetrack. Right now, I think this is equivalent to not WaveTrack, but maybe we will add new types of tracks (like Notes right?) so I thought it was better to do it that way. If you have any different opinion tell me please.

André.

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 7:46 AM, Gale (Audacity Team) <[hidden email]> wrote:


André Pinto said:
> This should now be fixed.
>
> Thanks to the "bug reporter" (I guess it was Gale).

Hi André

It was me, but in Unicode Release the same issue is still there.


Gale

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Sent from the audacity-devel mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Gale (Audacity Team)

Re: P2: When Time and Label Tracks present and linking on, cannot delete a region by selecting only in the label track

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| From André Pinto <[hidden email]>
| Fri, 10 Jul 2009 21:01:11 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] P2: When Time and Label Tracks present and linking on, cannot delete a region by selecting only in the label track

> Thanks for the reply. Probably I misunderstood the bug. I thought it was
> this one:
>
> - Create a timetrack, a wavetrack and a label.
> - Select the label (press Enter if you went to the edit label name field). A
> vertical selection should be created.
> - Press Delete.
>
> Before my commit the Clear was not working in this situation. That was the
> bug I fixed and I thought it was the one on the Checklist.
>
>
> But now I guess I already know what that release checklist bug is (Selecting
> only a region within the label track and clearing it). I've commited a fix
> for it. Can you confirm this is fixed please?

Hi André

Yes I guess "steps to reproduce" would have helped. Sorry for any
confusion. The bug I saw was what you have now successfully got
rid of: select a region in the label track only (the region may or may
not include a label), then delete or cut to remove that region in the
label track and also in the linked audio tracks.  

However when linking is off, deleting or cutting a region can still
cause labels to move, although (correctly) the audio isn't affected.
When linking is off, I think deleting or cutting a region in only the
label track should do nothing, except when you draw a region
encompassing a label. In that case the label should be removed,
but not move any unselected labels as a result. I think we need this
as another means of just removing the label without affecting other
labels, now that Edit > Silence Audio does not do this.  

This is a bit subjective like much of label behaviour, but I think it's
a fringe case to want to delete one label and affect the other labels,
but without affecting the audio. It's more likely if you don't want  
linking that you want to leave other labels alone when you delete
one.

So unless someone argues strongly otherwise, can you make labels
not move in sympathy if you delete one when linking is off? This is
lower priority than if you're needed to help with the Linux crashes
we have at present, of course.  


> About the commit my condition to verify if the labeltrack is part of a group
> was checking if there is a track before it and checking if that track is not
> a labeltrack neither a timetrack. Right now, I think this is equivalent to
> not WaveTrack, but maybe we will add new types of tracks (like Notes right?)
> so I thought it was better to do it that way. If you have any different
> opinion tell me please.

It makes no sense to include a Time Track in a Group because they don't
support pieces being cut out or inserted into them. I think Note Tracks
*should* be included in Groups if we want to be able to compare audio
and MIDI tracks.

Right now, if you have Audio Track above Note Track above Label Track,
you have no Track Group, so deleting a region with only the Label Track
selected does not affect labels or audio, yet does affect the Note Track.
I find that a confusing "half-way house". Whether Note Tracks are
"mature" enough yet to be properly part of a Group, I don't know.  

 
Thanks,


Gale
 


> On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 7:46 AM, Gale (Audacity Team) <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > André Pinto said:
> > > This should now be fixed.
> > >
> > > Thanks to the "bug reporter" (I guess it was Gale).
> >
> > Hi André
> >
> > It was me, but in Unicode Release the same issue is still there.
> >
> >
> > Gale
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> > http://n2.nabble.com/P2%3A-When-Time-and-Label-Tracks-present-and-linking-on%2C-cannot-delete-%09a-region-by-selecting-only-in-the-label-track-tp3225901p3236006.html
> > Sent from the audacity-devel mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > vendors submitting new applications to BlackBerry App World(TM) will have
> > the opportunity to enter the BlackBerry Developer Challenge. See full prize
> > details at: http://p.sf.net/sfu/Challenge
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> > audacity-devel mailing list
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> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-devel
> >



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Richard Ash (audacity-help)

Re: P2: When Time and Label Tracks present and linking on, cannot delete a region by selecting only in the label track

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On Sat, 2009-07-11 at 02:15 +0100, Gale Andrews wrote:

> However when linking is off, deleting or cutting a region can still
> cause labels to move, although (correctly) the audio isn't affected.
> When linking is off, I think deleting or cutting a region in only the
> label track should do nothing, except when you draw a region
> encompassing a label. In that case the label should be removed,
> but not move any unselected labels as a result. I think we need this
> as another means of just removing the label without affecting other
> labels, now that Edit > Silence Audio does not do this.  
>
> This is a bit subjective like much of label behaviour, but I think it's
> a fringe case to want to delete one label and affect the other labels,
> but without affecting the audio. It's more likely if you don't want  
> linking that you want to leave other labels alone when you delete
> one.

Would this mean that with linking off, selecting a region across all the
tracks in a project (including some label tracks, and some audio), then
pressing delete would cause some tracks to move and others (the label
tracks) no to? I think that's confusing. I know you could turn linking
on just to do that operation and then back off, but that's a hack if the
nature of your edit workflow is that you never use link, because you are
changing the timing and position of clips all the time.

The problem is that we have never really decided whether the gaps
between labels on label tracks are significant or not. If you treat them
as empty space, then deleting them is a no-op, as you describe.

If you think of the spaces between labels being just as important as the
labels (e.g. if you have used labels to lay out the fixed timing of an
edit, but not labelled every single link between sections), then you
want the track to be as much like a strip of paper with markings on as
possible - so you can cut a section out anywhere, and the total length
changes by exactly that much, regardless of where you are when you cut.

Richard


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André Pinto

Re: P2: When Time and Label Tracks present and linking on, cannot delete a region by selecting only in the label track

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In reply to this post by Gale (Audacity Team)


On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 2:15 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

| From André Pinto <[hidden email]>
| Fri, 10 Jul 2009 21:01:11 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] P2: When Time and Label Tracks present and linking on, cannot delete a region by selecting only in the label track
 
However when linking is off, deleting or cutting a region can still
cause labels to move, although (correctly) the audio isn't affected.
When linking is off, I think deleting or cutting a region in only the
label track should do nothing, except when you draw a region
encompassing a label. In that case the label should be removed,
but not move any unselected labels as a result. I think we need this
as another means of just removing the label without affecting other
labels, now that Edit > Silence Audio does not do this.

This is a bit subjective like much of label behaviour, but I think it's
a fringe case to want to delete one label and affect the other labels,
but without affecting the audio. It's more likely if you don't want
linking that you want to leave other labels alone when you delete
one.

So unless someone argues strongly otherwise, can you make labels
not move in sympathy if you delete one when linking is off? This is
lower priority than if you're needed to help with the Linux crashes
we have at present, of course.

As there is some discussion about this, I'll wait for a final decision. Meanwhile I'll be working on other bugs.


> About the commit my condition to verify if the labeltrack is part of a group
> was checking if there is a track before it and checking if that track is not
> a labeltrack neither a timetrack. Right now, I think this is equivalent to
> not WaveTrack, but maybe we will add new types of tracks (like Notes right?)
> so I thought it was better to do it that way. If you have any different
> opinion tell me please.

It makes no sense to include a Time Track in a Group because they don't
support pieces being cut out or inserted into them. I think Note Tracks
*should* be included in Groups if we want to be able to compare audio
and MIDI tracks.

Right now, if you have Audio Track above Note Track above Label Track,
you have no Track Group, so deleting a region with only the Label Track
selected does not affect labels or audio, yet does affect the Note Track.
I find that a confusing "half-way house". Whether Note Tracks are
"mature" enough yet to be properly part of a Group, I don't know.

From what I saw on the code, NoteTracks haven't any group behavior yet (eg for Paste and Clear).

André.

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Gale (Audacity Team)

Re: P2: When Time and Label Tracks present and linking on, cannot delete a region by selecting only in the label track

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In reply to this post by Richard Ash (audacity-help)

| From Richard Ash <[hidden email]>
| Sat, 11 Jul 2009 12:00:24 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] P2: When Time and Label Tracks present and linking on, cannot delete a region by selecting only in the label track

> On Sat, 2009-07-11 at 02:15 +0100, Gale Andrews wrote:
> > However when linking is off, deleting or cutting a region can still
> > cause labels to move, although (correctly) the audio isn't affected.
> > When linking is off, I think deleting or cutting a region in only the
> > label track should do nothing, except when you draw a region
> > encompassing a label. In that case the label should be removed,
> > but not move any unselected labels as a result. I think we need this
> > as another means of just removing the label without affecting other
> > labels, now that Edit > Silence Audio does not do this.  
> >
> > This is a bit subjective like much of label behaviour, but I think it's
> > a fringe case to want to delete one label and affect the other labels,
> > but without affecting the audio. It's more likely if you don't want  
> > linking that you want to leave other labels alone when you delete
> > one.
>
> Would this mean that with linking off, selecting a region across all the
> tracks in a project (including some label tracks, and some audio), then
> pressing delete would cause some tracks to move and others (the label
> tracks) no to? I think that's confusing. I know you could turn linking
> on just to do that operation and then back off, but that's a hack if the
> nature of your edit workflow is that you never use link, because you are
> changing the timing and position of clips all the time.
>
> The problem is that we have never really decided whether the gaps
> between labels on label tracks are significant or not. If you treat them
> as empty space, then deleting them is a no-op, as you describe.
>
> If you think of the spaces between labels being just as important as the
> labels (e.g. if you have used labels to lay out the fixed timing of an
> edit, but not labelled every single link between sections), then you
> want the track to be as much like a strip of paper with markings on as
> possible - so you can cut a section out anywhere, and the total length
> changes by exactly that much, regardless of where you are when you cut.
>
>
> Richard

Well, my first concern is retaining an intuitive way to just delete the
label without affecting the other labels (for when you just put it in
the wrong place). Clicking in the label, END then backspace isn't
that intuitive (is there some other way)?

In the case where linking is off, and you are selecting a region across
a number of audio tracks and a label track, I think I would find it
confusing if labels did move. If they did, it seems to imply they are
moving in sympathy with the audio, which is the purpose of linking,
and in fact behaving exactly the same as if linking were on. That
doesn't look like an option to me.

I notice we have a bug in this situation now. If you have:

* linking off
* two audio tracks above a label track containing two labels
* select a region encompassing the first label
* drag the region up into the audio tracks
* delete

the first audio track is shortened as expected, but there is no effect
in the second audio track (wrong), and no effect in the label track
(hmm, did we actually design it that way as I recall, and was that
the correct decision)? My feeling is that the label that was selected
across should disappear, but the other label should not move.  

In the case where linking is either off or on, and you are only selecting
a region in the label track, it seems to me there are use cases both to
delete a label affecting the others, and not to do so.  Maybe this is
what we want to tackle?

 


Gale


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André Pinto

Re: P2: When Time and Label Tracks present and linking on, cannot delete a region by selecting only in the label track

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On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well, my first concern is retaining an intuitive way to just delete the
label without affecting the other labels (for when you just put it in
the wrong place). Clicking in the label, END then backspace isn't
that intuitive (is there some other way)?

In the case where linking is off, and you are selecting a region across
a number of audio tracks and a label track, I think I would find it
confusing if labels did move. If they did, it seems to imply they are
moving in sympathy with the audio, which is the purpose of linking,
and in fact behaving exactly the same as if linking were on. That
doesn't look like an option to me.

should this be the final way to go? Linking off -> no labels move, or does it need more discussion about how important are the gaps between the labels as Richard said?

I notice we have a bug in this situation now. If you have:

* linking off
* two audio tracks above a label track containing two labels
* select a region encompassing the first label
* drag the region up into the audio tracks
* delete

the first audio track is shortened as expected, but there is no effect
in the second audio track (wrong), and no effect in the label track
(hmm, did we actually design it that way as I recall, and was that
the correct decision)? My feeling is that the label that was selected
across should disappear, but the other label should not move.

the bug should be fixed now (however the behaviour of removing a label is still the old one - the other label still moves).

Thanks to both of you,
André.

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André Pinto

Re: P2: When Time and Label Tracks present and linking on, cannot delete a region by selecting only in the label track

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On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 8:08 PM, André Pinto <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well, my first concern is retaining an intuitive way to just delete the
label without affecting the other labels (for when you just put it in
the wrong place). Clicking in the label, END then backspace isn't
that intuitive (is there some other way)?

In the case where linking is off, and you are selecting a region across
a number of audio tracks and a label track, I think I would find it
confusing if labels did move. If they did, it seems to imply they are
moving in sympathy with the audio, which is the purpose of linking,
and in fact behaving exactly the same as if linking were on. That
doesn't look like an option to me.

should this be the final way to go? Linking off -> no labels move, or does it need more discussion about how important are the gaps between the labels as Richard said?

I've implemented this. When linking is on the default behavior is still present.

André.

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