P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability

12 messages

P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability

Reply Threaded

Is this bug related to specific screen readers?

I just tested using NVDA on Win XP. When cells having the time get
focus, it reads out the time correctly.
For example, if the time is 00 h, 00 m, 05 s it reads "zero zero h
zero zero m zero five s."

When editing the time, suppose the initial time is 12h 34m 56s. Then
if we take the focus to 5, it first reads out "five six s. five text 5
of 6 selected". Then, when the value of 5 is changed to another
number, it reads out only the new number. I also tried different
representations of time. It seemed to work fine.

Am I missing something? Is there any other screen reading ability that
is broken?

Can someone confirm the behaviour on NVDA or other screen readers if available?

Thanks

Vidyashankar

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Gale (Audacity Team)

Re: P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability

Reply Threaded

| From Vidyashankar Vellal <[hidden email]>
| Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:10:24 +0530
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability

I get the same behaviour as you in NVDA. David Bailes would be able to
tell you more if he was reading (address in the Cc). I can't find the initial
report but it was generalised IIRC (something like "labels are not read
out").

Gale

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David Bailes-2

Re: P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability

Reply Threaded

On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> | From Vidyashankar Vellal <[hidden email]>
> | Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:10:24 +0530
> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability
>> Is this bug related to specific screen readers?
>>
>> I just tested using NVDA on Win XP. When cells having the time get
>> focus, it reads out the time correctly.
>> For example, if the time is 00 h, 00 m, 05 s it reads "zero zero h
>> zero zero m zero five s."
>>
>> When editing the time, suppose the initial time is 12h 34m 56s. Then
>> if we take the focus to 5, it first reads out "five six s. five text 5
>> of 6 selected". Then, when the value of 5 is changed to another
>> number, it reads out only the new number. I also tried different
>> representations of time. It seemed to work fine.
>>
>> Am I missing something? Is there any other screen reading ability that
>> is broken?
>>
>> Can someone confirm the behaviour on NVDA or other screen readers if available?
>
> I get the same behaviour as you in NVDA. David Bailes would be able to
> tell you more if he was reading (address in the Cc). I can't find the initial
> report but it was generalised IIRC (something like "labels are not read
> out").

Do you know which labels are being referred to? The time controls in
the selection bar read ok due to work done a few months ago by Leland.
The labels in a label track don't read, but that's a long standing
issue, which Leland has said would take quite a bit of work to get
sorted out.

David.

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Gale (Audacity Team)

Re: P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability

Reply Threaded

| From David Bailes <[hidden email]>
| Wed, 4 Nov 2009 09:09:34 +0000
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability

> On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > | From Vidyashankar Vellal <[hidden email]>
> > | Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:10:24 +0530
> > | Subject: [Audacity-devel] P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability
> >> Is this bug related to specific screen readers?
> >>
> >> I just tested using NVDA on Win XP. When cells having the time get
> >> focus, it reads out the time correctly.
> >> For example, if the time is 00 h, 00 m, 05 s it reads "zero zero h
> >> zero zero m zero five s."
> >>
> >> When editing the time, suppose the initial time is 12h 34m 56s. Then
> >> if we take the focus to 5, it first reads out "five six s. five text 5
> >> of 6 selected". Then, when the value of 5 is changed to another
> >> number, it reads out only the new number. I also tried different
> >> representations of time. It seemed to work fine.
> >>
> >> Am I missing something? Is there any other screen reading ability that
> >> is broken?
> >>
> >> Can someone confirm the behaviour on NVDA or other screen readers if available?
> >
> > I get the same behaviour as you in NVDA. David Bailes would be able to
> > tell you more if he was reading (address in the Cc). I can't find the initial
> > report but it was generalised IIRC (something like "labels are not read
> > out").
>
> Do you know which labels are being referred to? The time controls in
> the selection bar read ok due to work done a few months ago by Leland.

I finally found what triggered the Checklist entry on August 16th:
http://n2.nabble.com/Re-Audacity-cvs-audacity-src-src-widgets-TimeTextCtrl-cpp-1-64-1-65-tp3449981p3449981.html

Leland said that Michael commenting:

ControlsToValue();

in TimeTextCtrl.cpp "will break what Jaws and/or Window Eyes will
present to the user". That cpp file hasn't been changed since.

Vidyashankar, can you figure what commenting ControlsToValue();
would do? Maybe that has broken not Edit Labels but some wider
screen reading ability in other locations? Can you see a way of
uncommenting ControlsToValue(); while still preventing the
start/end times in Edit Labels reading zero?

> The labels in a label track don't read, but that's a long standing
> issue, which Leland has said would take quite a bit of work to get
> sorted out.

I noted that at the time, but now trying that myself in NVDA and
tabbing to subsequent labels and hearing nothing seems really bad
to me. Should we release note that, along with the issues reading
the Preferences screen?

Gale

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Michael Chinen

Re: P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability

Reply Threaded

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:34 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> | From David Bailes <[hidden email]>
> | Wed, 4 Nov 2009 09:09:34 +0000
> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability
>> On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > | From Vidyashankar Vellal <[hidden email]>
>> > | Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:10:24 +0530
>> > | Subject: [Audacity-devel] P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability
>> >> Is this bug related to specific screen readers?
>> >>
>> >> I just tested using NVDA on Win XP. When cells having the time get
>> >> focus, it reads out the time correctly.
>> >> For example, if the time is 00 h, 00 m, 05 s it reads "zero zero h
>> >> zero zero m zero five s."
>> >>
>> >> When editing the time, suppose the initial time is 12h 34m 56s. Then
>> >> if we take the focus to 5, it first reads out "five six s. five text 5
>> >> of 6 selected". Then, when the value of 5 is changed to another
>> >> number, it reads out only the new number. I also tried different
>> >> representations of time. It seemed to work fine.
>> >>
>> >> Am I missing something? Is there any other screen reading ability that
>> >> is broken?
>> >>
>> >> Can someone confirm the behaviour on NVDA or other screen readers if available?
>> >
>> > I get the same behaviour as you in NVDA. David Bailes would be able to
>> > tell you more if he was reading (address in the Cc). I can't find the initial
>> > report but it was generalised IIRC (something like "labels are not read
>> > out").
>>
>> Do you know which labels are being referred to? The time controls in
>> the selection bar read ok due to work done a few months ago by Leland.
>
> I finally found what triggered the Checklist entry on August 16th:
> http://n2.nabble.com/Re-Audacity-cvs-audacity-src-src-widgets-TimeTextCtrl-cpp-1-64-1-65-tp3449981p3449981.html
>
> Leland said that Michael commenting:
>
> ControlsToValue();
>
> in TimeTextCtrl.cpp "will break what Jaws and/or Window Eyes will
> present to the user". That cpp file hasn't been changed since.
>
> Vidyashankar, can you figure what commenting ControlsToValue();
> would do? Maybe that has broken not Edit Labels but some wider
> screen reading ability in other locations? Can you see a way of
> uncommenting ControlsToValue(); while still preventing the
> start/end times in Edit Labels reading zero?

I should say that I asked Leland about this further, proposing a
workaround, and he said that it wasn't actually my change that broke
the screen reader.

Michael

>
>
>> The labels in a label track don't read, but that's a long standing
>> issue, which Leland has said would take quite a bit of work to get
>> sorted out.
>
> I noted that at the time, but now trying that myself in NVDA and
> tabbing to subsequent labels and hearing nothing seems really bad
> to me. Should we release note that, along with the issues reading
> the Preferences screen?
>
>
>
>
> Gale
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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David Bailes-2

Re: P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Gale (Audacity Team)

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 7:34 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I noted that at the time, but now trying that myself in NVDA and
> tabbing to subsequent labels and hearing nothing seems really bad
> to me. Should we release note that, along with the issues reading
> the Preferences screen?

It might be worth noting it. What are the issues reading the preferences screen?

Also, it appears that Jaws 11 (but not 10) has a problem reading the
cells in the table of the Label editor. Very strange.

David.

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Gale (Audacity Team)

Re: P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability

Reply Threaded

| From David Bailes <[hidden email]>
| Thu, 5 Nov 2009 16:55:54 +0000
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 7:34 AM, Gale Andrews <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I noted that at the time, but now trying that myself in NVDA and
> > tabbing to subsequent labels and hearing nothing seems really bad
> > to me. Should we release note that, along with the issues reading
> > the Preferences screen?
>
> It might be worth noting it. What are the issues reading the preferences
> screen?

Those ones where the "&" in accelerators are read out as "and".

> Also, it appears that Jaws 11 (but not 10) has a problem reading the
> cells in the table of the Label editor. Very strange.

Does it do that in tables in other applications, if so a JAWS problem?

Then Michael said:
> I should say that I asked Leland about this further, proposing a
> workaround, and he said that it wasn't actually my change that
> broke the screen reader.

Yes further down the thread I cited, you said:

" The problem appears to stem from the fact that it doesn't have its
format string or mFields set up in the constructor, and
ControlsToValue() depends on this. (Grid.cpp:172 is one example where
the format string is set after the constructor)."

and Leland said he'd noticed that before. I don't know more than that
and am not apportioning blame, just trying to find out what the extent
of the screen reader problem is.

So if uncommenting ControlsToValue(); isn't going to help whatever the
problems are, perhaps we should Release Note the screen reader problems
we do know about (Preferences and Labels) making them a P3, with a link
to this discussion. We can always split the bugs into a lower priority later
if it's clear they are separate. The Preferences problem goes back to quite
early Betas, in any case.

Thanks for confirming your help with the Manual, David.

Gale

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Leland (Audacity Team)

Re: P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Vidyashankar Vellal

I believe I corrected this a while back, but I'll try it again with
NVDA, Window Eyes, and Jaws.

Leland

Vidyashankar Vellal wrote:

> Is this bug related to specific screen readers?
>
> I just tested using NVDA on Win XP. When cells having the time get
> focus, it reads out the time correctly.
> For example, if the time is 00 h, 00 m, 05 s it reads "zero zero h
> zero zero m zero five s."
>
> When editing the time, suppose the initial time is 12h 34m 56s. Then
> if we take the focus to 5, it first reads out "five six s. five text 5
> of 6 selected". Then, when the value of 5 is changed to another
> number, it reads out only the new number. I also tried different
> representations of time. It seemed to work fine.
>
> Am I missing something? Is there any other screen reading ability that
> is broken?
>
> Can someone confirm the behaviour on NVDA or other screen readers if available?
>
> Thanks
>
> Vidyashankar
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
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Leland (Audacity Team)

Re: P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Michael Chinen

Michael Chinen wrote:

>> Leland said that Michael commenting:
>>
>> ControlsToValue();
>>
>> in TimeTextCtrl.cpp "will break what Jaws and/or Window Eyes will
>> present to the user". That cpp file hasn't been changed since.
>>
>> Vidyashankar, can you figure what commenting ControlsToValue();
>> would do? Maybe that has broken not Edit Labels but some wider
>> screen reading ability in other locations? Can you see a way of
>> uncommenting ControlsToValue(); while still preventing the
>> start/end times in Edit Labels reading zero?
> I should say that I asked Leland about this further, proposing a
> workaround, and he said that it wasn't actually my change that broke
> the screen reader.
>

Correct. But, I'm still having a heck of a time convincing Jaws and
Windows Eyes to use the correct value. They seem to be using the
initial value (which is 0) and not the updated value (like 30 seconds)
once that value gets set. NVDA handles it (what I consider) properly.

This is probably why I gave up on it the first time around. :-) It
hasn't beaten me yet this time though.

Leland

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David Bailes-2

Re: P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability

Reply Threaded

Hi Leland,

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Leland <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Michael Chinen wrote:
>>> Leland said that Michael commenting:
>>>
>>> ControlsToValue();
>>>
>>> in TimeTextCtrl.cpp "will break what Jaws and/or Window Eyes will
>>> present to the user". That cpp file hasn't been changed since.
>>>
>>> Vidyashankar, can you figure what commenting ControlsToValue();
>>> would do? Maybe that has broken not Edit Labels but some wider
>>> screen reading ability in other locations? Can you see a way of
>>> uncommenting ControlsToValue(); while still preventing the
>>> start/end times in Edit Labels reading zero?
>> I should say that I asked Leland about this further, proposing a
>> workaround, and he said that it wasn't actually my change that broke
>> the screen reader.
>>
> Correct. But, I'm still having a heck of a time convincing Jaws and
> Windows Eyes to use the correct value. They seem to be using the
> initial value (which is 0) and not the updated value (like 30 seconds)
> once that value gets set. NVDA handles it (what I consider) properly.
>
> This is probably why I gave up on it the first time around. :-) It
> hasn't beaten me yet this time though.

For some reason I just can't work out what this thread is refering to.
Could you give me a brief description of what you're trying to fix,

thanks,
David.

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Leland (Audacity Team)

Re: P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability

Reply Threaded

David Bailes wrote:

> Hi Leland,
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Leland <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Michael Chinen wrote:
>>>> Leland said that Michael commenting:
>>>>
>>>> ControlsToValue();
>>>>
>>>> in TimeTextCtrl.cpp "will break what Jaws and/or Window Eyes will
>>>> present to the user". That cpp file hasn't been changed since.
>>>>
>>>> Vidyashankar, can you figure what commenting ControlsToValue();
>>>> would do? Maybe that has broken not Edit Labels but some wider
>>>> screen reading ability in other locations? Can you see a way of
>>>> uncommenting ControlsToValue(); while still preventing the
>>>> start/end times in Edit Labels reading zero?
>>> I should say that I asked Leland about this further, proposing a
>>> workaround, and he said that it wasn't actually my change that broke
>>> the screen reader.
>>>
>> Correct. But, I'm still having a heck of a time convincing Jaws and
>> Windows Eyes to use the correct value. They seem to be using the
>> initial value (which is 0) and not the updated value (like 30 seconds)
>> once that value gets set. NVDA handles it (what I consider) properly.
>>
>> This is probably why I gave up on it the first time around. :-) It
>> hasn't beaten me yet this time though.
>
> For some reason I just can't work out what this thread is refering to.
> Could you give me a brief description of what you're trying to fix,
>

Sure thing. I too had difficulty remembering/recreating the problem.

When using either Jaws or Window Eyes, start and empty project and
select Generate -> Silence from the menu. This will display the dialog
and Jaws or Window Eyes reports the time as 000,000 seconds. But, the
displayed value is 30 seconds.

Leland

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David Bailes-2

Re: P2: Edit labels...fix breaks screen reading ability

Reply Threaded

thanks, I remember this one now,
David.

On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Leland <[hidden email]> wrote:

> David Bailes wrote:
>> Hi Leland,
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Leland <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Michael Chinen wrote:
>>>>> Leland said that Michael commenting:
>>>>>
>>>>> ControlsToValue();
>>>>>
>>>>> in TimeTextCtrl.cpp "will break what Jaws and/or Window Eyes will
>>>>> present to the user". That cpp file hasn't been changed since.
>>>>>
>>>>> Vidyashankar, can you figure what commenting ControlsToValue();
>>>>> would do? Maybe that has broken not Edit Labels but some wider
>>>>> screen reading ability in other locations? Can you see a way of
>>>>> uncommenting ControlsToValue(); while still preventing the
>>>>> start/end times in Edit Labels reading zero?
>>>> I should say that I asked Leland about this further, proposing a
>>>> workaround, and he said that it wasn't actually my change that broke
>>>> the screen reader.
>>>>
>>> Correct. But, I'm still having a heck of a time convincing Jaws and
>>> Windows Eyes to use the correct value. They seem to be using the
>>> initial value (which is 0) and not the updated value (like 30 seconds)
>>> once that value gets set. NVDA handles it (what I consider) properly.
>>>
>>> This is probably why I gave up on it the first time around. :-) It
>>> hasn't beaten me yet this time though.
>>
>> For some reason I just can't work out what this thread is refering to.
>> Could you give me a brief description of what you're trying to fix,
>>
> Sure thing. I too had difficulty remembering/recreating the problem.
>
> When using either Jaws or Window Eyes, start and empty project and
> select Generate -> Silence from the menu. This will display the dialog
> and Jaws or Window Eyes reports the time as 000,000 seconds. But, the
> displayed value is 30 seconds.
>
> Leland
>
>
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