OLTL's gay storyline better than ATWT and why!

[OSU21Male]

So I have been watching the Kyle and Fish storyline on OLTL.  I find this storyline to be a lot better than the Luke and Noah storyline overall.  Even the start is much more realistic than that of Luke and Noah's.  In Noah's case, his father was a lunatic who tried to kill Luke.  While this is plausible in extreme circumstances, the coming out storyline of Fish to his parents was much more realistic.  His father disapproved, almost left town without saying goodbye, but eventually did and said he still loved his son, just couldn't be with him.  Of course I think he added something about praying for him as well.  Now they have uped the storyline by doing a gay wedding.  The writers on OLTL have already had Kyle and his current boyfriend Nick sleep together and they have only been together a couple of months (once again a more realistic approach to current relationships).  The obstacles in Kyle and Fish's way are very realistic, self-loathing, time elapsed, new relationship forming, though sorts of things as opposed to psycho dads and Iraq War Brides.

I am not sure if OLTL is doing so much better in telling the story because the characters are older, because they were not the first to do a gay storyline, or if the writing is just better in generally.  I am going to say its a combination of all three.  I am curious what others think of the Kyle and Fish storyline compared to the Luke and Noah storyline as far as writing is concerned.

I guess I wrote this post as I am sort of bored with Luke and Noah at this point.  They have been very stagnant and most of the storyline development has been due to outside influences rather than internal conflicts within each other and their relationship.  The Mason triangle is the first storyline that has been truly about the relationship but it moved soooo slowly.  Now that it finally got interesting again its on hiatus, though they have to do this to allow for vacations and other story lines.  If I were CG I would have filmed the storyline ahead of the vacation and allowed it to unfold amongst the other stories on the show so it would be such a long drawn out wait that just felt like it was loosing steam.

[jbsoapfan]

I don't watch OLTL so I can't compare.  However, Luke's coming out story was really well done I thought.  Lily had a very hard time at first..Holden was more accepting.  Damian showed up and pretended to be accepting but then tried to send Luke off to a 'scared straight' type camp.  At the time I thought it was all really well done.

Also, I do think that when Noah and Luke were just friends and Noah was dating Maddie but realized he had feelings for Luke...THAT part was pretty well done.  I totally agree that the psycho dad part ruined it and that so much since that point has been utterly unbelievable and overly contrived.

I keep hoping that Mason will breathe some new life into this pair...one way or the other.  I kind of think Mason is cute and wouldn't mind seeing him is less clothing once or twice soon!!

[OSU21Male]

JB,

You made some valuable points.  I agree that the Luke coming out story was very well done.  I also think the Noah struggling was done pretty well, but the minute Noah came out things started to go wrong and were way over the top.  The moments after the shooting and Luke's recovery was also well done and well acted by both Van and Jake.  Though the trigger happy dad was bad, I think it really started getting way too stretched when Ameera got on the scene (though I loved the actress, Teela Ashe, she did a great job, I wish they would have kept her around as a love interest for Casey).  I also think they should have Mason shirtless more often.  For a while I was rutting for Mason and Noah to start something, but the way they have made Noah so put off by the idea since Mason declared his attraction, makes one not want it anymore.  

So far OLTL has handled Fish's coming out well, though his girlfriend took things a little too easy, that part was a bit bad.  Now they have a citywide gay wedding in the works, with a Mayoral candidate playing gay to win votes.  Its actually very interesting.  Also, the love triangle between the two former lovers, Fish and Kyle and Kyle's new boyfriend is also very well done.  There is a part of the audience that wants Fish and Kyle to rekindle what they had in college and for Kyle to own up to his feelings and get Fish back now that he is completely out of the closet.  There is also part of the viewer that wants to see Kyle and Nick get together because Nick is such a good guy.  Though right now they are starting to paint him a little decietful which makes the viewer want the Kyle and Fish rekindling a little more.  Its all being done really well, it has funny moments, sad moments, and cliff hangers that make you wonder where things are going next (Writers of ATWT, please take note here, cliffhangers are what make an audience continue to watch a show, you all need to work on this element of soap writing and pronto!)  

[SnyderFan8]

I don't watch OLTL, but it sounds like I should.  Getting a better and more realistic story line on a gay relationship looks like OLTL may have it.

I agree with JB that many facets of the Luke/Noah romance including Luke's coming out were done well.  The folly lay with the psycho dad.  It was a mistake to begin with.  The s/l could have been much better if Noah had appeared on the scene with a "normal" background, without the strict and unreasonable upbringing he had.  I agree that the Ameera intrusion was just a bad idea.

Luke has always acted in an immature way, which irks me.  He shows little desire to grow up and act more like an adult.  Balancing with Noah's wise approach to most matters provides an excellent pairing for Luke.  Some of this should rub off on him.  When the s/l continues in another week or so, perhaps Luke and Noah will work on their relationship, talk through their issues, and discover that they are truly meant for each other; or come to a conclusion they truly are not matched well.  

The writers need to put other story lines on the back burner for a time and really delve into the relationship between Luke and Noah.  Enough of Traci, Audrey, Henry, Craig, Rosanna, Dusty, and Uncle What'sHisName!  The only good s/l recently was that of Katie and Brad, sadly ending in Brad's demise.  Great acting on the actor who plays Katie.  We need a whole two weeks of nothing but Luke and Noah and let their relationship really develop and mature.

[OSU21Male]

Dave,

I agree they need to delve into Luke and Noah's relationship and have them have a heart to heart on screen.  The writers are horrible when it comes to having the characters in relationships actually take the time to talk to one another directly about what is going on.  At this point the writers either need to have Noah show an interest in Mason and realize that Luke is too immature or have Luke show signs that he is truly maturing and would make a good long term parnter for Noah.  Noah has always been more mature but they have made him more so this year while at the same time not allowing Luke to mature much.  A few of Luke's positive growths have been that he stopped drinking and helped his mom when Holden was assumed dead.  But in terms of his relationship, he never thinks of Noah ahead of time.  Noah on the other hand is always thinking of Luke.  Its interesting because when the relationship started, and especially when Ameera was on the scene, it was the other way around.  The writers just can't really get these two on the same page and as a result, the relationship is no longer balanced and is starting to fall to pieces in even to the most loyal of Nuke fans.  Maybe it is time for the two to separate for a few months, allow Noah to have a trist with Mason, then reunite them before shows end.  

[SnyderFan8]

Chris,

Not sure this is appropriate for this thread; or for that matter, if this thread should have been under the "other show" category.  But that said, I'm going to add my two cents for another show that IMO portrays gay relationships far better than ATWT.

The show is Brothers and Sisters.  Basically, it's a soap, but a highly refined and well-written show about a family that sometimes is highly disfunctional, and at times the characters are very supportive of each other.  One of the brothers is gay and recently married his partner.  This couple is given good air time, and it is amazing to watch them as they work through issues on which they disagree.  They discuss their feelings and talk through the issues that come up.  Currently, they are wanting to have a baby, and are seeking a surrogate.  They have differing opionions about how this should be done.  Scotty has a female friend who he would like to be the surrogate, but Kevin wants to go in another direction through an agency.  Kevin's a lawyer and very cut and dry and legalistic in his opinions.  Scotty is more artistic, a master chef in an upscale restaurant, and flexible in his outlook.  This in itself creates drama for the two, but it also provides strength to both characters.  It shows that people who basically love each other but not agree on all aspects of life can make a success of their partnership/marriage.  Both characters were honest when they discussed who would stay home and take care of the new baby.  Neither wants to give up his profession.  Ultimately their love for each other will come out on top, and they either modify their opinions or seek middle ground--perhaps help from a Nanny?

I realize the writers on B&S are of a higher professional quality than on ATWT; also I'm sure they are more highly paid; the show has a bigger budget; and the pressures of doing a once a week show are different than a daily one.  But my point is that the interactions between Scotty and Kevin on this show are completely believeable!  No silly interfering situations are put in their paths.  They are real people who work through their daily challenges.  The audience must appreciate these two characters, who are fun to watch as some situations are truly comical, and others dead serious.  They IMO carry the best s/l on the show.

[OSU21Male]

Dave,

I think this is a little off topic but I will allow it, lol.  We have discussed brothers and sisters before.  Its a well written show as you pointed out.  I have not seen it since season 2 I believe, maybe it was season one.  The twins were born is basically where I left off.  For the longest time you could not get season 2 so that is why I am behind.  The writers do have more time, money, and frankly talent.  Then again, I think a majority of the actors on that show are also better than on ATWT.  I would have to say the strongest female actress on ATWT is Maura West followed closely by Julie.  As for men, its a toss up.  I used to really love watching Van as an actor, but due the horrible story lines as of recent months, I think his acting is just not as up to par as he used to be.  The when he shed tears for Holden, that was very good.  Van and Billy are also strong contenders.

Getting back to the story lines, ATWT just has a habit of doing reruns of their own stories.  In the last year alone we have seen Noah kidnapped twice, two women both try to drown themselves in the Snyder pond, two mischarages caused by falls, two incidents of psychotic women claiming to be raped by men who they had the hots for but refused them, and lets not forget about all the PEG crap that was slung at us.  ATWT needs to do some house cleaning of their writing staff and figure out who is truly the gyms as there are a few that must be talented because every once in a great while we will have a solid week or two of strong story telling or a great story arch such as Luke coming out.  

Chris

[ceeceetee]

Love Brothers and Sisters -- just got into it last season. It's a high class soap, for sure, with top-rate actors and writing. Nothing on daytime will ever come close, I fear. But you'd think those daytime writers would watch some top-notch evening series and come up with a CLUE! As for B&S, they offer drama, humor and surprises. And when they invited Gilles (that gorgeous Frenchman) into the mix a couple of weeks ago, I KNEW I was a goner on Sunday nights at 10 pm! Just had to add my two cents! LOL

[SnyderFan8]

I hadn't remembered that I discussed Brothers and Sisters before.  It's obvious that I'm obsessed with this show!   LOL

Chris, I can't believe you let this slide!  Surely it must be on Youtube or some other site.  You would most certainly love this s/l on B&S.  From what you have been saying about the gay story lines on ATWT and OLTL it's just your kind of drama.  Do try to catch up on it.  You've missed a lot of good, good drama.

[OSU21Male]

I have season three on my netflix list.  I am a little annoyed that they made Rebecca no longer a Walker and had her become Justin's love interest.  I found this out when I saw a clip that revealed she was no longer their sister and then saw a article in a magazine talking about her outfit during her engagement party. Have they introduced the mystery brother?

[SnyderFan8]

Yes, Chris, it was a bit of a shock when Rebecca turned out not to be a Walker.  But IMO they did it well, although there were a few awkward moments between Justin and Rebecca at first--as you could imagine.  They are a cute couple, and I enjoy watching them evolve.

Yes, a bastard son of William Walker was introduced last season.  He's a skunk and I don't think he will last long.  His name is Ryan.

I'm glad you are starting season three with Netflix.  I predict you will really enjoy it.  Please let me know as it unfolds what your reactions are.  I'm particularly interested in your take on Scotty and Kevin's relationship.  There are some really good scenes with them coming up!

[jbsoapfan]

I agree with you about B&S...but as you pointed out, they have a lot going for them in terms of money, actors, etc.  Also...those are truly ADULT characters with careers, etc., so they naturally have more 'meat' for stories.  Luke and Noah started out as a college couple...and as you know, most college students don't have TOO much going on in their lives other than school work, parties and possibly some family issues.  College is still a time of figuring out who you are, what you want, etc. and is still a selfish period of life.  Luke and Noah couldn't possibly have as much 'real' drama as adults do...it just isn't plausible.

That said...you know I feel the ATWT writers give ALL the characters short shrift when it comes to stories, dialogue, etc.  But, writing for an every day show vs. a 23 episode show...it is surely harder to stay original when you have to put out so much material without fail.

[ceeceetee]

Yes, writing a daily story creates challenges that any weekly series does not confront. But wouldn't you think that any writer (worth her/his particular sense of personal pride) would strive towards credibility? a sense of pride in her/his writing? a respect for the audience it hopes to engage/involve? I don't know what the standards are for anyone hired on as a daytime soap opera writer. I imagine those standards are rather low, based on what I've experienced while watching ATWT. But, as I always say, those "writers" (and I use the term VERY LIGHTLY) are probably awfully happy to have a job. Too bad they don't understand that an audience (regardless of age, education level, or geographical location) deserves complete respect when asked to accept any storyline. Sadly, ATWT is headed towards that big, black hole known as CANCELLATION DUE TO LACK OF INTEREST.

[luvjakevan]

I have been watching OLTL and I agree with you maybe because the characters are older OLTL can have a same sex marriage s/l but the writing has been so outstanding and Nuke has had the most ridiculous s/l's.I agree the first one with Noah's father was the best but it has been down hill from there.I love the actors and OLTL showing Kyle/Oliver/Nick interacting with each other and other characters and I hate ATWT for not having Nuke on so little and acting like they are a happy gay couple living together.OLTL has shown the gay character's in public at a dinner like ATWT does,but also shows them in each other's apartment.What is so awesome is that OLTL has done this in such a short time and they aren't beating around the bush,they are going full speed ahead and getting to the point with a serious topic that is in the news.I don't know if I can go back to watching ATWT even just to see Nuke and it be the same ol same ol.

[OSU21Male]

Luv,

As you can already see from my previous writings, I completely agree with you about the writing.  Well with the exception that I think Noah's psycho dad was a way over the top storyline, but some of the fall out was really good.  

You made great points about OLTL moving fast and furious with the gay storyline.  They have already had Kyle and Fish as well as Kyle and Nick makeout several times.  Nick has spent the night at Kyle's place many times over the course of their short relationship (a couple of months).  Granted, these characters are in their mid 20s or early 30s and have previous romances, but their lives are still greatly more realistic.  Also, the other day they had a bunch of same sex couples kiss.  They have their teen characters supporting gay people, even going so far as to pose as gay couples to upset protesters.  They even interjected humor by having Roxy kiss a protesting woman and then having the protester smile with delight afterward.  What I also think is wonderful about the writing, as much as they are putting Kyle and Fish as the front runner couple that should be together in the end, they didn't make Nick a villain.  He wasn't out to breakup Kyle and Fish.  He repeatedly asked if Kyle was ready to move on from Fish, he was genuine in his feelings for Kyle and you felt bad for him when Kyle finally declared his feelings for Fish and Nick went off crying.  

ATWT has created characters that were hellbent on breaking up Luke and Noah either because they could not accept them being gay (Col./Ameera) or because they wanted one of them despite knowing that they were already taken (Ameera/Reg/Tony/Z and Z/Mason).  Granted Z and Z were really all about the money, but nevertheless they put the moves on them to break them up.  Now that I think of it, these boys have had a bunch of pential sutors, the most viable of course being Reg and Tony but they have never shown signs of even entertaining the thought of being with someone else which is extremely far fetched for any guy, especially ones that are suppose to be this young.

The one bad element these soaps both have in common is that they don't really talk about the sexual aspects of being gay.  They dance around this issue completely.  With ATWT we have never really seen Luke and Noah in a classic soap love scene (then again, ATWT doesn't do much of these anyways).  With OLTL when Christian asked Fish what his type was, the only response he had was "Kyle", so in a way these characters are emotionally gay, not sexually so, which I don't really like.  I hope that TV in general will find a place where they can have gay characters express their sexual desire and display this openly.  Nip/Tuck does an awesome job with this, even in gay story lines and Queer as Folk did as well.  Maybe one day basic TV will be able to do this with a level of comfort without being so bawdy so that viewers of various ages can watch it.

[OSU21Male]

Cee,

First let me explain a little about what I know of the writing team of ATWT.  

I can only speak about three of the ATWT writers credentials.  The two hears writes have been in soaps for several years. JP actually did writing for other soaps prior to becoming head writer.  I believe she was involved with General Hospital.  The new co-head writer who's name I am forgetting worked on Guiding Light prior to its cancellation, in my opinion you shouldn't get your writing staff from shows canceled due to low ratings, this is not likely to increase viewership in a struggling show, but this is just me, lol.  

Susan Dansby, a writer who is directly below the two co-head writers has a degree in directing from Carnagey Melon (sp?).  She wrote a book during the writers strike about how she got her job in soap writing called "How did you get that Job? My dream jobs and how they came true".  Its actually a really good book and helped to re-inspire me to give my dreams a shot.  She basically worked on soaps for several years in various positions including directing some episodes of Guiding Light and General Hospital as well as did some freelance directing which served as a precursor to her writing career.   She had to do several practice scripts prior to getting hired.  I believe Martha Byrne also did this prior to getting her writing gig.

Now to my critique.  In general I have to agree with you that writers should take great pride in their work.  However, I think with the way a soap is written, there is not a lot of time for comparing notes between the collaborators of the script (I believe each writer writes a week worth of scripts every other week or something to that affect).  This is one thing I believe needs to be changed.  If this genre is going to stay alive they need to adopt a more collaborative process like that of prime time shows.  As a result of this lack of collaboration there are major wholes in scripts.  On top of that there is often times really bad dialogue and recycled scripts should still be easily spotted despite this bad writing system.  Given that this writing team has been together for a few years they should know better to and be able to spot and stop the recycling of scripts from previous months for example, Noah getting kidnapped twice in the span of 3 months, ugh.

[SnyderFan8]

Chris,

Interesting and thoughtful summary of what might go on in the secretive meetings where story lines and dialogues are written.  Truth is that we don't know what happens behind those closed doors.  You and others can only surmise what the dynamics are when these plots are drawn up.  You don't really know what discussions, arguments, and compromises are reached when the writers talk about designing the general direction of the story lines as well as specific episode development.  We know nothing about how the story lines are developed.  It's all assumptions based on little fact.

We can only assume that there is either chaos among the writers or if it's a collaboration of amateur writers who don't really care about the genre or just don't have the RIGHT kind of experience.  You mentioned about some of the writers who have had experience on other shows.  If they had all this experience, why did they leave those shows?  It seems to me that they were NOT successful there, and ATWT took them on.  What a charade!  I think we all agree the writing on ATWT is sub-par.  But do you know what?  We're stuck with it. All we can do is complain amonst ourselves and try to rationalize what the trouble is.  It's not going to get better unless truly professional writers who really care about story lines, history of the show, and making the characters more believeable are hired.  Is that going to happen?  No, of course not.  That's my two cents.

[ceeceetee]

Chris,

Thanks for taking the time to explain some of what might be going on behind the scenes at ATWT. If you're right, and the writers rarely collaborate, it explains the ragtag storylines in some way. It seems nuts to have a group of people creating plots and dialog, yet never being in close contact with one another. If I were an actor trying to give a credible performance, I'd be pulling my hair out in frustration!

I've never paid close attention to who's writing this stuff or what their background/credentials might be. I wonder if once you're categorized as a daytime soap writer, you're stuck there for the rest of your writing career? Or are there writers who move on or out of the genre? Whatever the case, I imagine these writers are also constrained by the fact that they have little range in terms of scene setting -- Oakdale's only got a few sets, and scenes are rarely shot outdoors (and when they are, you can hardly hear what anyone is saying!)

As Snyderfan wrote, we're sort of stuck with this if we are at all addicted to this program (or other soaps, for that matter). But I do often compare ATWT to AMC (my "other" soap), and I find the latter to be far superior in terms of acting. Even when the stories get preposterous on AMC, I find the actors seem to be able to carry it off. This is just my opinion, of course. LOL

[Oakdale Confidential]

Here is proof for those who have not seen this story.  I love Scott Evans and Brett Claywell.  I hope you will enjoy this wonderful romance in the wonderful way Agnes Nixon who writes socially relevant story , brilliantly!

Enjoy!!!

Myles

[luvjakevan]

OSU21 male,


I went back and reread this thread and I have to say you are dead on about the writing and lack of a romantic story for Nuke and they do rerun the same s/l's for all of their characters which is why I love this gay s/l on OLTL.I look at their characters Oliver is a police officer/Nick is a school teacher who is very out and proud/Kyle is going back to med-school and their characters are I think are balanced where on ATWT the writers flip flop with Luke having a foundation that he hasn't been running lately or a job at Damian's that suddenly disappears again.A lot of excuses like you and other have posted that always get in the way.Reruns for the past 2 years.Noah is pretty much solid working at Java and wanting to work in the film industry.I was excited by Mason at the beginning but now I'm really not very interested.I like what you said about Nick,not being the villian.When he got down on his knee and asked Kyle to marry him was one of my favorite scenes.American soaps don't show really sex scenes realistic like say Verbotene Liebe and the soap with Roman & Deniz,but I think OLTL might go there with Oliver & Kyle.I don't have much hope with ATWT.Great topic you brought up.