More GAFCON

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Gordon Cheng

Muriel Porter

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Muriel Porter comments on Peter Jensen's involvement in GAFCON:

The prominent Melbourne liberal Muriel Porter said she regarded the movement as subversive and would raise the matter at a meeting of the general synod's standing committee in Sydney next month. "The decision to host GAFCON is going to cause real concern among many Anglicans in Australia," she said. "It is an alternative international Anglican structure rivalling the archbishop of Canterbury and the primates and all of the other bodies of the Anglican Communion."
From here.

What is the general attitude within Melbourne circles to Muriel's comments?

(The Stand Firm comment is pretty unambiguous. I couldn't find anything in today's Age about this, however.)
solapanel.org <--- Matthias Media blog including GAFCON reports.
ingmarhingwah.blogspot.com <--- Personal blog including chuck steak recipe.
Matt Williams

Re: Muriel Porter

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I don't think I'm telling anyone anything when I say there is no such thing as a 'general attitude' in Melbourne diocese. There are plenty of uninformed opinions, which we try to help by sharing the truth; but there are also some divisive people who seek to cultivate uninformed opinions, and they show no interest in the truth. The church has always had its share of such people, so I am saddened but not surprised about that (Jude 3, 19).

A few corrections, then:

(1) Sydney is not 'hosting' GAFCON. GAFCON already happened, and it was in Jerusalem. As far as is presently known, it was and will remain a one-off.

(2) Sydney is not the 'headquarters' of the Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans. Peter Jensen has agreed to be their secretary (I guess he can touch-type) and he is receiving correspondence relating to that role using his own post-box (presumably he finds it awkward to check one in Lagos regularly). My understanding of diocesan independence in Australia is that it extends to sovereignty over the use of one's own post-box, but I suppose we could ask the Appellate Tribunal...

(3) The Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans is not a 'breakaway group' but a renewal movement from within. There are and have been many such renewal movements and confessional alignments in the history of the Anglican Church.

(4) Those who were involved in GAFCON are not actually trying to do anything within the Australian context they weren't doing beforehand anyway: encouraging people to hold fast to Anglican orthodoxy.

Blessings
Matt

P.S. Can I suggest the thread title be changed, since it is not about a person and would be inappropriate to make it so?
Tim Patrick

Re: Muriel Porter

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[Moderator's note]

I've pulled the post from 'Peter' as it was bitter and does not represent healthy Christian discussion and does not represent Jesus well. If 'Peter' would like to repost making the same points but without the vitriol, that would be welcome.

Unfortunately, when a post is pulled all responses are pulled at the same time so we've also lost Matt William's helpful response. If Matt would like to repost, that would be welcome too.

In the future, can I please ask that threads are not named after people. We're on here to discuss ideas and issues. If it happens that a particular person is the issue, then can I perhaps encourage you to please follow something like a Mt 18:14ff process. (Maybe if you get to v17 you could make an appropriate comment on a web forum.)

Many thanks,

Tim
Cat Patrick

More GAFCON

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A re-named thread.
Matt Williams

Re: Muriel Porter

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In reply to this post by Tim Patrick
Thanks Tim,

I can't really repost it because I don't keep copies outside the forum.

Thanks for renaming the thread too.

Matt
Gordon Cheng

Re: Muriel Porter

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I'm sorry I was too late to catch Peter's comment. I turned my e-mail notifications off and so missed it. The notifications are back on now!

I am also a bit sorry to see the thread title changed, as Muriel Porter's comments are the focus of the OP, and I don't really want to deviate from that into a general GAFCON discussion. Could I suggest that "Dr Muriel Porter's comments" (or something similar) would be slightly more useful in indicating what this thread is about? Or at least, what I was intending it to be about.

But whatever the case may be, the original question stands. How are Melbourne Anglicans responding to what has been said?

There are plenty of uninformed opinions, which we try to help by sharing the truth; but there are also some divisive people who seek to cultivate uninformed opinions, and they show no interest in the truth.
Matt, I don't completely understand this comment. But are you meaning that Muriel's opinion is, in your view, 'uninformed'?

I wonder too if Dr Porter could be invited to make a response? I think you are right, Matt, but I am guessing she would take a different view.
solapanel.org <--- Matthias Media blog including GAFCON reports.
ingmarhingwah.blogspot.com <--- Personal blog including chuck steak recipe.
Matt Williams

Re: Muriel Porter

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I'll leave it by saying what I said before: my comments are not about an individual person, because that would be inappropriate, and should not be read as such.
Gordon Cheng

Re: Muriel Porter

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This seems to be a thread of disappearing and edited comments!

I'll repeat some of what I said in the hope that it sticks this time—which is that I am very interested in hearing how the comments Muriel has made are viewed within Melbourne Anglicanism. She seems to have been given a de facto role in speaking up on behalf of the diocese, and it would be good to hear of other responses. Are her comments seen as essentially irrelevant and to be ignored (as one contributor was suggesting before his comments disappeared)? Or are they seen as expressive of a mainstream liberal view within the diocese (which was the other suggestion being put)?

I'm sure it must be possible to discuss the comments themselves without needing to say anything unhelpful about the person who made them.
solapanel.org <--- Matthias Media blog including GAFCON reports.
ingmarhingwah.blogspot.com <--- Personal blog including chuck steak recipe.
Tim Patrick

Re: Muriel Porter

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Gordon Cheng wrote:
This seems to be a thread of disappearing and edited comments!
[Moderator's note]

My appologies for this. I made a genuine administrative bungle today when I was trying to organise some material and lost some posts. Perhaps I should leave it to someone more web-savvy in the future.

Appologies again.

Tim
Gordon Cheng

Re: Muriel Porter

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Thanks Tim, honestly I'm trying to be on my best behaviour here, I realize that it is a sensitive issue. But I realize I shouldn't be so paranoid. Glitches happen!
solapanel.org <--- Matthias Media blog including GAFCON reports.
ingmarhingwah.blogspot.com <--- Personal blog including chuck steak recipe.
Phil Weickhardt (Phool)

Re: More GAFCON

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(This post was updated on )
In reply to this post by Cat Patrick
In my time in Melbourne  I viewed certain people as self appointed spokespersons. They sometimes have a paid a job to do and do it very well - does everybody agree with them? No.

Sometimes I took a dislike to people in these roles.

Their comments are quoted in other fora, just like this example.

There are other examples, often quoted. Partly, I think, because the secular media either likes to sell newspapers and they provide great fodder OR likes to present the church as divided. I would say that choices to publish comments about the current situation in the Anglican Church fits into the latter category.

Some commentators are consistent in supporting women in ordained ministry or supporting liberal theology and others supporting biblical orthodoxy. I found an interesting speech from a book launch, that I found on TMA website: http://www.melbourne.anglican.com.au/main.php?pg=news&news_id=6138 (some insights into Sydney Diocese and Moore College as well!)

GAFCon will be a divisive issue in the Anglican church. Everything I read on GAFCon and the assembly of confessing Anglicans suggests that those who are faithful to the 39 Articles want to be a reformation within the communion. Those that are attacking GAFCon also attack the foundations of the Anglican Church and the work of Ridley, Cranmer, Lattimer and others. Unfortunately, because the evangelicals have been boycotting synods and such they have given power to others for too many years. Others have been very happy to take control and steer the church away from its origins.

Do we dare say "I will follow, even unto death"?
Phil Weickhardt
Kalgoorlie, WA
Jereth

Re: Muriel Porter

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(This post was updated on )
In reply to this post by Gordon Cheng
Gordon Cheng wrote:
I'll repeat some of what I said in the hope that it sticks this time—which is that I am very interested in hearing how the comments Muriel has made are viewed within Melbourne Anglicanism. She seems to have been given a de facto role in speaking up on behalf of the diocese, and it would be good to hear of other responses. Are her comments seen as essentially irrelevant and to be ignored (as one contributor was suggesting before his comments disappeared)? Or are they seen as expressive of a mainstream liberal view within the diocese (which was the other suggestion being put)?
Gordon,

I'm going to speak generally because this is a "public" forum and there appears to be a general discomfort out there about get too specific. We can discuss specifics in our private email.

Melbourne diocese is not uniform. There are fairly distinct, and often mutually incompatible, theological parties. (I'm sure you remember this from your time down here.) No individual speaks on behalf of the entire diocese (except perhaps the Archbishop?). Any other individual claiming to speak on behalf of the diocese, whoever they might be, is probably either misled or suffering from a mild case of grandiosity. He/she/they may be respected and taken seriously by one party but not necessarily by others. If any such individual may be so (un?)fortunate as to get their personal opinions published in the secular press, this does not change the fact that they are only likely to be representing one viewpoint among many. The flip side of course is that no one is "essentially irrelevant and to be ignored" (quoting you). Everyone, even the most extreme among us, will have some  other people to whom they are highly relevant.

I think Phool's comments are also very helpful. Thank you Phool. (Try not to mention so many names next time because that is frowned upon here.)

I refer you to the statistics hosted on this site, prepared by Jenny George, which demonstrate the variegated nature of Melbourne diocese. These statistics may give you an indication of just how much support may be behind (or not behind) the public remarks of any given individual, assuming you can figure out which party's view that individual represents. But even then you can't assume that everyone within a single "party" will think the same way about things! Life is complex, and so are people.

Let me finish by reminding you, dear Gordo, that we are, in theory at least, living in a democracy where each individual is entitled to their personal opinion and freedom of speech without fear of censorship. People can therefore be expected to speak up publicly from time to time -- they may even express views which you and I might find quite bizzare -- and the rest of us can freely choose whether to agree or disagree with them. Thank God that even the Anglican church does not have a Gestapo or KGB forcing us all to conform to a single point of view!

Hope that helps!

Jereth
Andrew Stagg

More Gafcon ~ Or What You Will

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Jereth wrote:
Let me finish by reminding you, dear Gordo, that we are, in theory at least, living in a democracy where each individual is entitled to their personal opinion and freedom of speech without fear of censorship. People can therefore be expected to speak up publicly from time to time -- they may even express views which you and I might find quite bizzare -- and the rest of us can freely choose whether to agree or disagree with them.
Of course those individuals who do speak up publicly from time to time should expect that their personal opinion might get critiqued and questioned from time to time. After all, surely those individuals wouldn't want us to just accept their personal opinion at face value without testing it, checking it against scripture and exposing it to a bit of light from time to time. Would they??
Jereth

Re: More Gafcon ~ Or What You Will

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Andrew Stagg wrote:
Of course those individuals who do speak up publicly from time to time should expect that their personal opinion might get critiqued and questioned from time to time. After all, surely those individuals wouldn't want us to just accept their personal opinion at face value without testing it, checking it against scripture and exposing it to a bit of light from time to time. Would they??
Indeed, this sort of "weighing" of expressed views, besides being mandated by Scripture (eg. 1 Thessalonians 5:21; 1 John 4:1), is a sign of a healthy democracy! Thank you Andrew.

Oh, and Andrew, please get rid of that silly dog. It is most unbecoming of you.
Jordan

Re: Muriel Porter

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Tim Patrick wrote:
[Moderator's note]

In the future, can I please ask that threads are not named after people. We're on here to discuss ideas and issues. If it happens that a particular person is the issue, then can I perhaps encourage you to please follow something like a Mt 18:14ff process. (Maybe if you get to v17 you could make an appropriate comment on a web forum.)
Hi Tim, Matthew 18 refers to personal, private grievances between two people. The principle is one of involving as few people as needed to resolve a dispute, and only involving the whole church if that has to happen.

What we're talking about here is discussion and critique of Muriel Porter's views, which she has expressed publicly in the church and in the world. It's a very different situation. Seeing as Muriel is acting as a public Christian witness, it is appropriate to comment publicly on what she has said - and to evaluate whether or not she is faithfully representing Christ and his body.

Jordan
Phil Weickhardt (Phool)

Re: More Gafcon ~ Or What You Will

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Jereth,

you are obviously to young to remember Kimba the white lion and the catchy theme tune! Andrew's avatar is not a dog but a proud and friendly lion. "Who's the one from deepest, darkest Africa ..."

By the way, thanks for the heads up on etiquette - edit made.

Phil Weickhardt
Kalgoorlie, WA
Anonymous

Re: Muriel Porter

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What we're talking about here is discussion and critique of Muriel Porter's views, which she has expressed publicly in the church and in the world. It's a very different situation. Seeing as Muriel is acting as a public Christian witness, it is appropriate to comment publicly on what she has said - and to evaluate whether or not she is faithfully representing Christ and his body.
right on. Muriel Porter has been on the public record for years, advocating constantly for homosexual marriage, sexual promiscuity, divorce, abortion, in short she is an unashamed crusader for immoral and godless living against the teachings of our holy bible. not only that, she has launched savage attacks in print against faithful brothers in sydney. no one in the anglican church has called this woman to account. for years she has brought discredit to the gospel and to the church. God's name is blasphemed amongst the pagans because of her. her destructive behaviour is a consistent pattern and she is clearly unrepentant. when will somebody in the melbourne church be brave enough to exercise some biblical discipline against this false prophet?

look at this http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23650444-7583,00.html
and this http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/10/17/1066364486769.html
and this (public insubordination to her archbishop!) http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/08/09/1092022399318.html

none of this has been said in a dark place, it is all out there in the media and non-christians are reading it, to our shame and humiliation.
Alex Milner

Re: Anonymous' post

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Hi Anonymous,

My view is that it is inappropriate to be posting on this forum (and purporting to comment on Dr Porter's comments) under anonymity and the post should be deleted.

PS Comments like "public insubordination to her archbishop!" is a such a dead giveaway (Peter?).

Kind regards
Alex
Tim Patrick

Re: Muriel Porter

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[Moderator's note]

Hi Anonymous,

I just want to make sure you can back up everything you say in your post.

I am aware of Muriel Porter being on the public record advocating for some of the things you've flagged. However, there are also some things you've attributed to her that I've not heard before. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it would be good to make sure you have clear examples of everything you claim as you make such statements.

Also, I'd like to encourage you to give us your real identity. The problem with pseudonyms is that they're unaccountable. You're calling for someone in the Melbourne Church to be brave enough to discipline Muriel Porter - I think it would be consistent if you were brave enough to own that call.

Ta, Tim

Andrew Stagg

Re: More Gafcon ~ Or What You Will

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Jereth wrote:
Oh, and Andrew, please get rid of that silly dog. It is most unbecoming of you.

Phil Weickhardt (Phool) wrote:
Jereth,

you are obviously to young to remember Kimba the white lion and the catchy theme tune! Andrew's avatar is not a dog but a proud and friendly lion. "Who's the one from deepest, darkest Africa ..."

Hi Phil, I'm glad someone else here is also old enough to remember - ah the youth of today - they know nothing!!


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