Missing mootools blog updates
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subtleGradient
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In reply to this post
by tombmedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll —Thomas Aylott / subtleGradient On Sep 17, 2008, at 11:56 PM, tombmedia wrote: > You are A-Class assholes |
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anutron
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In reply to this post
by Torkil
If you, the core developers, find that forums are just tiresome and Hi, I'm Aaron, and I'm part of the dev group. I thought I'd answer this question directly, since the current state of the forums is, in some part, my responsibility (not wholly, but partially). About a year ago maybe, I'm not 100% sure, we, the dev group, were struggling with the forums. On the one hand, it made the community visible and easy to interact with. On the other hand, it was indeed, full of total noobs. The noobs being there didn't bother us though. It was the interaction between the *lazy* posters and the more advanced users (and even, sometimes, members of the dev group).
The "lazy" users were the ones who just showed up and said "Accordion doesn't work" or whatever. They didn't follow the instructions. They didn't search for an answer first. They rarely supplied code and, when they did, it was often very clear that helping that person was going to be fruitless - they didn't want to learn. They only wanted their page to do something so they could move on to their next copy and paste activity.
The more advanced users, understandably, grew tired of this sort of behavior and increasingly reacted negatively to it. If someone showed up and posted something like "Framework X doesn't do this. This is stupid." then all hell would break loose.
The result was that, increasingly, MooTools was getting a bad rep (and by extension the dev group were, too). The general perception was that we were unfriendly towards new comers and downright brutal towards them sometimes. It was perceived that we had a strong dislike towards jQuery and that we viewed ourselves as superior to all other frameworks. Despite our efforts to say otherwise (for example, http://www.mootorial.com/wiki/mootorial/00a-mootoolsvsothers), this rep persisted.
The debate was between two options: close the forums entirely or just let it run rampant. The latter didn't seem like a good option. It was MY idea to disassociate the forums from the MooTools site entirely, and I'm still glad we did it. How people conduct themselves here in these forums (or mooforum.net) is up to them. The reputation that our community gets is up to or community to earn and shape. But no longer is the project itself responsible for it (well, it never could have been, but at least this way it's less likely that the framework and its developers will be held accountable for it).
I actually suggested first that we set up something like mooforum.net. Just take the exact software and everything and move it to another domain. The devs could, for the most part, stay the hell away from it. I even suggested we set up some generic forum about javascript frameworks and invite other frameworks to send their users there (mootools.jsforums.com, jquery.jsforums.com, etc). That suggestion didn't go over that well, but everyone did agree on moving the forums away from Mootools.net, and so we have what we have now.
I hope that this clears things up a bit. We do want to see MooTools grow and we do want new users to be able to learn it (hello mootorial!), and we are friendly, helpful people (the devs and most of the community alike). But our first priority is to build a solid framework that people can use, and having the forums not be our responsibility is a huge benefit. It's a weight off our minds as well as a daily chore we don't have a lot of time for.
So we charge you - all of you - to be nice and helpful wherever possible. When someone is being lazy or ugly towards you, just walk away. If you can't say anything nice at all... find someone who needs your help and respects you and help them instead.
Sorry this rant is rather long... -Aaron The MooTools Tutorial: www.mootorial.com
Clientcide: www.clientcide.com
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cronix-2
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Very well stated Aaron. And besides the mootorial, there is also Aarons book by Apress, which you can now find a quick link to on the mootools.net website in the lower left (also a link to mooforum.net was added to the Community section on the right). Cmon Aaron...plug plug plug! LOL On Sep 18, 8:44 am, nutron <[hidden email]> wrote: > > If you, the core developers, find that forums are just tiresome and > > none-productive, I totally respect and understand that. You want to > > spend your time developing. How about just setting up a forum (doesn't > > take too long!) and find some dedicated individuals willing to > > moderate it (doesn't take too long either!)? Just set it up and never > > visit it at all. At least you have then given the community an > > official place to hang out, share, connect and most importantly: GROW! > > Hi, I'm Aaron, and I'm part of the dev group. > > I thought I'd answer this question directly, since the current state of the > forums is, in some part, my responsibility (not wholly, but partially). > About a year ago maybe, I'm not 100% sure, we, the dev group, were > struggling with the forums. On the one hand, it made the community visible > and easy to interact with. On the other hand, it was indeed, full of total > noobs. The noobs being there didn't bother us though. It was the interaction > between the *lazy* posters and the more advanced users (and even, sometimes, > members of the dev group). > > The "lazy" users were the ones who just showed up and said "Accordion > doesn't work" or whatever. They didn't follow the instructions. They didn't > search for an answer first. They rarely supplied code and, when they did, it > was often very clear that helping that person was going to be fruitless - > they didn't want to learn. They only wanted their page to do something so > they could move on to their next copy and paste activity. > > The more advanced users, understandably, grew tired of this sort of behavior > and increasingly reacted negatively to it. If someone showed up and posted > something like "Framework X doesn't do this. This is stupid." then all hell > would break loose. > > The result was that, increasingly, MooTools was getting a bad rep (and by > extension the dev group were, too). The general perception was that we were > unfriendly towards new comers and downright brutal towards them sometimes. > It was perceived that we had a strong dislike towards jQuery and that we > viewed ourselves as superior to all other frameworks. Despite our efforts to > say otherwise (for example,http://www.mootorial.com/wiki/mootorial/00a-mootoolsvsothers), this rep > persisted. > > The debate was between two options: close the forums entirely or just let it > run rampant. The latter didn't seem like a good option. > > It was MY idea to disassociate the forums from the MooTools site entirely, > and I'm still glad we did it. How people conduct themselves here in these > forums (or mooforum.net) is up to them. The reputation that our community > gets is up to or community to earn and shape. But no longer is the project > itself responsible for it (well, it never could have been, but at least this > way it's less likely that the framework and its developers will be held > accountable for it). > > I actually suggested first that we set up something like mooforum.net. Just > take the exact software and everything and move it to another domain. The > devs could, for the most part, stay the hell away from it. I even suggested > we set up some generic forum about javascript frameworks and invite other > frameworks to send their users there (mootools.jsforums.com, > jquery.jsforums.com, etc). That suggestion didn't go over that well, but > everyone did agree on moving the forums away from Mootools.net, and so we > have what we have now. > > I hope that this clears things up a bit. We do want to see MooTools grow and > we do want new users to be able to learn it (hello mootorial!), and we are > friendly, helpful people (the devs and most of the community alike). But our > first priority is to build a solid framework that people can use, and having > the forums not be our responsibility is a huge benefit. It's a weight off > our minds as well as a daily chore we don't have a lot of time for. > > So we charge you - all of you - to be nice and helpful wherever possible. > When someone is being lazy or ugly towards you, just walk away. If you can't > say anything nice at all... find someone who needs your help and respects > you and help them instead. > > Sorry this rant is rather long... > > -Aaron > > ----- > The MooTools Tutorial: http://www.mootorial.comwww.mootorial.com > CNET Clientside: http://clientside.cnet.comclientside.cnet.com > -- > View this message in context:http://n2.nabble.com/Missing-mootools-blog-updates-tp1092259p1098560.... > Sent from the MooTools Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. |
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electronbender
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Yes, seriously guys. You are the core developers, i dont see why you are getting so cramped up answering newbies on the forums. Those things should be moderated like hell, keeping post like those out of the loop and keeping everyone happy. It seams to me like the downfall of the foums was completly avoidable. I'm sure that there are plenty of people that are active in the forums that would be more than happy to keep the newbies at bay, or at minimum, have them conforming to the forum rules. On Sep 19, 1:59 am, CroNiX <[hidden email]> wrote: > Very well stated Aaron. And besides the mootorial, there is also > Aarons book by Apress, which you can now find a quick link to on the > mootools.net website in the lower left (also a link to mooforum.net > was added to the Community section on the right). Cmon Aaron...plug > plug plug! LOL > > On Sep 18, 8:44 am, nutron <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > If you, the core developers, find that forums are just tiresome and > > > none-productive, I totally respect and understand that. You want to > > > spend your time developing. How about just setting up a forum (doesn't > > > take too long!) and find some dedicated individuals willing to > > > moderate it (doesn't take too long either!)? Just set it up and never > > > visit it at all. At least you have then given the community an > > > official place to hang out, share, connect and most importantly: GROW! > > > Hi, I'm Aaron, and I'm part of the dev group. > > > I thought I'd answer this question directly, since the current state of the > > forums is, in some part, my responsibility (not wholly, but partially). > > About a year ago maybe, I'm not 100% sure, we, the dev group, were > > struggling with the forums. On the one hand, it made the community visible > > and easy to interact with. On the other hand, it was indeed, full of total > > noobs. The noobs being there didn't bother us though. It was the interaction > > between the *lazy* posters and the more advanced users (and even, sometimes, > > members of the dev group). > > > The "lazy" users were the ones who just showed up and said "Accordion > > doesn't work" or whatever. They didn't follow the instructions. They didn't > > search for an answer first. They rarely supplied code and, when they did, it > > was often very clear that helping that person was going to be fruitless - > > they didn't want to learn. They only wanted their page to do something so > > they could move on to their next copy and paste activity. > > > The more advanced users, understandably, grew tired of this sort of behavior > > and increasingly reacted negatively to it. If someone showed up and posted > > something like "Framework X doesn't do this. This is stupid." then all hell > > would break loose. > > > The result was that, increasingly, MooTools was getting a bad rep (and by > > extension the dev group were, too). The general perception was that we were > > unfriendly towards new comers and downright brutal towards them sometimes. > > It was perceived that we had a strong dislike towards jQuery and that we > > viewed ourselves as superior to all other frameworks. Despite our efforts to > > say otherwise (for example,http://www.mootorial.com/wiki/mootorial/00a-mootoolsvsothers), this rep > > persisted. > > > The debate was between two options: close the forums entirely or just let it > > run rampant. The latter didn't seem like a good option. > > > It was MY idea to disassociate the forums from the MooTools site entirely, > > and I'm still glad we did it. How people conduct themselves here in these > > forums (or mooforum.net) is up to them. The reputation that our community > > gets is up to or community to earn and shape. But no longer is the project > > itself responsible for it (well, it never could have been, but at least this > > way it's less likely that the framework and its developers will be held > > accountable for it). > > > I actually suggested first that we set up something like mooforum.net. Just > > take the exact software and everything and move it to another domain. The > > devs could, for the most part, stay the hell away from it. I even suggested > > we set up some generic forum about javascript frameworks and invite other > > frameworks to send their users there (mootools.jsforums.com, > > jquery.jsforums.com, etc). That suggestion didn't go over that well, but > > everyone did agree on moving the forums away from Mootools.net, and so we > > have what we have now. > > > I hope that this clears things up a bit. We do want to see MooTools grow and > > we do want new users to be able to learn it (hello mootorial!), and we are > > friendly, helpful people (the devs and most of the community alike). But our > > first priority is to build a solid framework that people can use, and having > > the forums not be our responsibility is a huge benefit. It's a weight off > > our minds as well as a daily chore we don't have a lot of time for. > > > So we charge you - all of you - to be nice and helpful wherever possible. > > When someone is being lazy or ugly towards you, just walk away. If you can't > > say anything nice at all... find someone who needs your help and respects > > you and help them instead. > > > Sorry this rant is rather long... > > > -Aaron > > > ----- > > The MooTools Tutorial: http://www.mootorial.comwww.mootorial.com > > CNET Clientside: http://clientside.cnet.comclientside.cnet.com > > -- > > View this message in context:http://n2.nabble.com/Missing-mootools-blog-updates-tp1092259p1098560.... > > Sent from the MooTools Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. |
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camspiers
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It has been good watching the google group over the last few weeks (with all this discussion over MooTools communication medium) I have been most impressed by Aaron and Thomas completely answering peoples questions about the forum and the mailing group.
Go MooTools. On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 10:04 PM, electronbender <[hidden email]> wrote:
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anutron
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In reply to this post
by electronbender
It's easy to say that the forums and their activity are easy to control, except that's never true of any environment (just look at these groups - anyone can post anything, and we are all free to disagree with each other - hey, that's the internet). The problem was that the forums, when they work, are great. But when they are bad, they can be really bad. We get dragged into dealing with them. Even this thread, which is civil and not bad but a bit pedantic, requires us to act.
And so when someone shows up that's a pain, or disagrees with how the moderators are doing their work, or whatever, it reflects poorly on the community, poorly on us (the developers whose names are attached to and responsible for the site), and, worse, poorly on the framework. So to say that we could do this or that, when no matter what we do there will always be a) people who disagree with our choices and b) people who are trouble no matter what (again, hey, it's the internet), our main priority was to ensure that the framework is not affected by these uncontrollable factors. -aaron
The MooTools Tutorial: www.mootorial.com
Clientcide: www.clientcide.com
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tombmedia
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In reply to this post
by camspiers
Really not trying to start something. But this will happen over and over. New users have no idea they have to subscribe to this group and get email for each new post. They go to the website, then the forum. Once they see that the forum is read only (or catch wind to come over here) they will surf to this group in their web browser and possibly bookmark it. Then they will start clicking page by page through all the posts. Eventually they will get to the info they need, and hopefully they will subscribe, but a lot of the people testing the waters want to know whats going on. I understand that you shouldn't be bothered with all this bs, but probably a hundred posts could be saved if just something was put up to let people know the new routine. Especially if you are in a bind, need some help and are already short on patience. A blog entry like "Google groups is permanent. Forum will never be back. See mooforum. Thx" I understand blog purity, and I understand not having to be bothered with all of us wondering what is going on. But unless you have lost the password to update the blog or something, I have no idea why you will continue to create this problem for yourselves when a simple blog update would fix it. Your blog post is old and getting older. And I'm not not trolling. This is not about the forum. Please don't kick me out of the group again. Thanks Aaron and Nathan for your posts they were perfect, if there was only some way to pin down information like that on the front page of the groups. |
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tomocchino
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*cough* http://mootools.net/blog http://mootools.net/blog/2008/09/23/whats-going-on-with-mootools/ On Sep 23, 2008, at 10:37 AM, tombmedia wrote: > > Really not trying to start something. But this will happen over and > over. New users have no idea they have to subscribe to this group and > get email for each new post. They go to the website, then the forum. > Once they see that the forum is read only (or catch wind to come over > here) they will surf to this group in their web browser and possibly > bookmark it. Then they will start clicking page by page through all > the posts. Eventually they will get to the info they need, and > hopefully they will subscribe, but a lot of the people testing the > waters want to know whats going on. I understand that you shouldn't be > bothered with all this bs, but probably a hundred posts could be saved > if just something was put up to let people know the new routine. > Especially if you are in a bind, need some help and are already short > on patience. A blog entry like "Google groups is permanent. Forum will > never be back. See mooforum. Thx" > > I understand blog purity, and I understand not having to be bothered > with all of us wondering what is going on. But unless you have lost > the password to update the blog or something, I have no idea why you > will continue to create this problem for yourselves when a simple blog > update would fix it. Your blog post is old and getting older. > > And I'm not not trolling. This is not about the forum. Please don't > kick me out of the group again. Thanks Aaron and Nathan for your posts > they were perfect, if there was only some way to pin down information > like that on the front page of the groups. |
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keif
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*cough*
at the top of the old forum: Attention: The forum is now read-only. Please see the MooTools Development Wiki for current support options. That link gives us: What about Forums? There are no official MooTools forums. There are a number of unofficial places where you can discuss MooTools and ask for support. Unofficial MooForum Why no official forum? Soooo if someone is interested in learning, they can find it. If they're looking for a place to post once, asking for someone to give them code, then they probably won't make it to the first link.
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tomocchino
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I give up... officially. I should probably just knock door to door all over the world and see if anyone is interested in learning more about MooTools and is also incapable of clicking two links. I mean, I have nothing else to do... :P The next person to post to this thread will be forever on my shit list. :) On Sep 23, 2008, at 4:55 PM, keif wrote: > > > *cough* > > at the top of the old forum: > Attention: The forum is now read-only. Please see the MooTools > Development > Wiki for current support options. > > That link gives us: > What about Forums? > There are no official MooTools forums. > > There are a number of unofficial places where you can discuss > MooTools and > ask for support. > > Unofficial MooForum > Why no official forum? > > Soooo if someone is interested in learning, they can find it. If > they're > looking for a place to post once, asking for someone to give them > code, then > they probably won't make it to the first link. > > > > > tomocchino wrote: >> >> >> *cough* >> >> http://mootools.net/blog >> >> http://mootools.net/blog/2008/09/23/whats-going-on-with-mootools/ >> >> >> On Sep 23, 2008, at 10:37 AM, tombmedia wrote: >> >>> >>> Really not trying to start something. But this will happen over and >>> over. New users have no idea they have to subscribe to this group >>> and >>> get email for each new post. They go to the website, then the forum. >>> Once they see that the forum is read only (or catch wind to come >>> over >>> here) they will surf to this group in their web browser and possibly >>> bookmark it. Then they will start clicking page by page through all >>> the posts. Eventually they will get to the info they need, and >>> hopefully they will subscribe, but a lot of the people testing the >>> waters want to know whats going on. I understand that you >>> shouldn't be >>> bothered with all this bs, but probably a hundred posts could be >>> saved >>> if just something was put up to let people know the new routine. >>> Especially if you are in a bind, need some help and are already >>> short >>> on patience. A blog entry like "Google groups is permanent. Forum >>> will >>> never be back. See mooforum. Thx" >>> >>> I understand blog purity, and I understand not having to be bothered >>> with all of us wondering what is going on. But unless you have lost >>> the password to update the blog or something, I have no idea why you >>> will continue to create this problem for yourselves when a simple >>> blog >>> update would fix it. Your blog post is old and getting older. >>> >>> And I'm not not trolling. This is not about the forum. Please don't >>> kick me out of the group again. Thanks Aaron and Nathan for your >>> posts >>> they were perfect, if there was only some way to pin down >>> information >>> like that on the front page of the groups. >> >> >> > > -- > View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Missing-mootools-blog-updates-tp1092259p1112669.html > Sent from the MooTools Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > |
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anutron
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First!
The MooTools Tutorial: www.mootorial.com
Clientcide: www.clientcide.com
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Iván N Paz
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Seriously... 1st time I join such threads... :-) (and great to know im 2nd on tomocchino list!!! ;-) 1. We have GoogleGroups: Ok, not a forum, a bit messy, BUt what about GoogleSearch inside the group??? It BEATS ANY forum SEARCH FUNCTION!!!! 2. We have mooforum, unofficial.... SO WHAT??????? I mean.. DOES IT MATTER its not official??/ common people, common sense here... a forum is just a social place to meet, find answers, post questions, etc.... who cares who hosts it???? Leave the god'm developers alone doing their job and join the mooforum and thats it!!!! RantOver... :-) |
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carise
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In reply to this post
by anutron
Well stated, Aaron. I'm all for helping people who need honest help, but I have to say, it was getting a little tiresome having to help people who couldn't bother to... 1) Learn Javascript (Javascript has been around for quite some time.) 2) Learn Mootools (There are tons of resources on MooTools.) 3) Learn to post more information about your coding problem... The MT community can't figure out what in the world your problem is if you don't post code or a link. Complaining that the docs, demos, and community help are lacking in 1.2 release is mostly unnecessary. I'm a really slow learner -- it took me nearly a year to figure out XmlHttpRequest, callbacks, closures... but I'm glad I kept at it, because now I understand it and it's helped me a lot when learning MooTools. So saying you don't have time to figure out what the docs and stuff are saying... that's a bad excuse. I'm glad MooTools dev is putting their priorities in the right place, i.e. developing MooTools. MooTools dev shouldn't have to spend precious time "babysitting" the community when they could use it to fix bugs and work on more code. And it's good to have a userbase of people who will use MooTools the way it was intended to -- elegantly, cleanly, and thoughtfully... not just plug and play. On Sep 18, 8:44 am, nutron <[hidden email]> wrote: > > If you, the core developers, find that forums are just tiresome and > > none-productive, I totally respect and understand that. You want to > > spend your time developing. How about just setting up a forum (doesn't > > take too long!) and find some dedicated individuals willing to > > moderate it (doesn't take too long either!)? Just set it up and never > > visit it at all. At least you have then given the community an > > official place to hang out, share, connect and most importantly: GROW! > > Hi, I'm Aaron, and I'm part of the dev group. > > I thought I'd answer this question directly, since the current state of the > forums is, in some part, my responsibility (not wholly, but partially). > About a year ago maybe, I'm not 100% sure, we, the dev group, were > struggling with the forums. On the one hand, it made the community visible > and easy to interact with. On the other hand, it was indeed, full of total > noobs. The noobs being there didn't bother us though. It was the interaction > between the *lazy* posters and the more advanced users (and even, sometimes, > members of the dev group). > > The "lazy" users were the ones who just showed up and said "Accordion > doesn't work" or whatever. They didn't follow the instructions. They didn't > search for an answer first. They rarely supplied code and, when they did, it > was often very clear that helping that person was going to be fruitless - > they didn't want to learn. They only wanted their page to do something so > they could move on to their next copy and paste activity. > > The more advanced users, understandably, grew tired of this sort of behavior > and increasingly reacted negatively to it. If someone showed up and posted > something like "Framework X doesn't do this. This is stupid." then all hell > would break loose. > > The result was that, increasingly, MooTools was getting a bad rep (and by > extension the dev group were, too). The general perception was that we were > unfriendly towards new comers and downright brutal towards them sometimes. > It was perceived that we had a strong dislike towards jQuery and that we > viewed ourselves as superior to all other frameworks. Despite our efforts to > say otherwise (for example,http://www.mootorial.com/wiki/mootorial/00a-mootoolsvsothers), this rep > persisted. > > The debate was between two options: close the forums entirely or just let it > run rampant. The latter didn't seem like a good option. > > It was MY idea to disassociate the forums from the MooTools site entirely, > and I'm still glad we did it. How people conduct themselves here in these > forums (or mooforum.net) is up to them. The reputation that our community > gets is up to or community to earn and shape. But no longer is the project > itself responsible for it (well, it never could have been, but at least this > way it's less likely that the framework and its developers will be held > accountable for it). > > I actually suggested first that we set up something like mooforum.net. Just > take the exact software and everything and move it to another domain. The > devs could, for the most part, stay the hell away from it. I even suggested > we set up some generic forum about javascript frameworks and invite other > frameworks to send their users there (mootools.jsforums.com, > jquery.jsforums.com, etc). That suggestion didn't go over that well, but > everyone did agree on moving the forums away from Mootools.net, and so we > have what we have now. > > I hope that this clears things up a bit. We do want to see MooTools grow and > we do want new users to be able to learn it (hello mootorial!), and we are > friendly, helpful people (the devs and most of the community alike). But our > first priority is to build a solid framework that people can use, and having > the forums not be our responsibility is a huge benefit. It's a weight off > our minds as well as a daily chore we don't have a lot of time for. > > So we charge you - all of you - to be nice and helpful wherever possible. > When someone is being lazy or ugly towards you, just walk away. If you can't > say anything nice at all... find someone who needs your help and respects > you and help them instead. > > Sorry this rant is rather long... > > -Aaron > > ----- > The MooTools Tutorial: http://www.mootorial.comwww.mootorial.com > CNET Clientside: http://clientside.cnet.comclientside.cnet.com > -- > View this message in context:http://n2.nabble.com/Missing-mootools-blog-updates-tp1092259p1098560.... > Sent from the MooTools Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. |
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cronix-2
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Good to see ya Carise, your not around much :) |
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carise
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Yeah, I kinda got swallowed up by some new projects at work (which don't involve MooTools ='( ) and haven't had as much free time to hang around the MT community... I sure do miss it though. I think with some new side projects I might be trying to push for MT usage though, so perhaps I'll be around more! =D On Sep 23, 9:29 pm, CroNiX <[hidden email]> wrote: > Good to see ya Carise, your not around much :) |
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Rey Bango
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In reply to this post
by Valerio Proietti
Hi Valerio, On Sep 16, 2:34 pm, Valerio Proietti <[hidden email]> wrote: > If you think jQuery is better, by all means, switch to it. jQuery is a > great framework. > Just reiterating what I said to Tom. Thanks for the kind words. I hope you know that you know that the feeling is mutual and I have the utmost respect for your work. Rey... jQuery Project |
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