Missing mootools blog updates

[Torkil]

What's up with mootools these days? The latest blog post is from june,
and this user group is so cluttered with other things that the
official news are hard to come by.

I'm just curious as to what is happening with the framework itself,
how things are progressing with the collection of plugins, etc. I'm
yearning for official news you might say :)

[Peter-7]

Indeed, what's up Mootools team? I hope this great framework is still
alive and maintained.

On Sep 16, 11:29 am, Torkil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> What's up with mootools these days? The latest blog post is from june,
> and this user group is so cluttered with other things that the
> official news are hard to come by.
>
> I'm just curious as to what is happening with the framework itself,
> how things are progressing with the collection of plugins, etc. I'm
> yearning for official news you might say :)

[loki der quaeler]

there's been several posts in the past week alone concerning progress  
and upcoming 1.2.1 and 1.3 releases.. maybe searching the posts (yes:  
a dead forum sucks) would results in a more immediate response


On Sep 16, 2008, at 4.37 PM, Peter wrote:

>
> Indeed, what's up Mootools team? I hope this great framework is still
> alive and maintained.
>
> On Sep 16, 11:29 am, Torkil <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> What's up with mootools these days? The latest blog post is from  
>> june,
>> and this user group is so cluttered with other things that the
>> official news are hard to come by.
>>
>> I'm just curious as to what is happening with the framework itself,
>> how things are progressing with the collection of plugins, etc. I'm
>> yearning for official news you might say :)

[nwhite-2]

Well they did announce the switch when 1.2 was released in the blog entry: http://blog.mootools.net/2008/6/12/mootools-1-2-it-s-official.
The forum wasn't holding up, so instead of supporting third party forum software they looked for an alternative. 

I know there is a lot of activity with mootools at github. Lots of issues are being addressed slated for 1.2.1. I have also seen where enhancements and some structural changes are going to be made by 1.3. A timeline has not been defined but I recall reading that they want to spend their time and not rush anything something like 3-4 months for 1.3.

The core developers are still very active. Tom Occhino gave a presentation at Fronteers part of it covering Mootools. Harald's site is still an excellent resource ( http://digitarald.de/ ). Jan Kassens has started a blog with some really good advance topics ( http://blog.kassens.net/ ). He even has a area setup for some great mootools code ( http://mootools.kassens.net/ ).  http://www.consideropen.com/ has been doing a 30 days of mootools tutorial.

While I agree that it would be nice to have a centralized hub for all things moo. We have to work with what we have right now. I know that there is work in place to get some kind of plugin repository up, so things are likely to improve over time. I think we all need to be a little patient and do what we can to nurture the community.

On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 10:43 AM, loki der quaeler <[hidden email]> wrote:

there's been several posts in the past week alone concerning progress and upcoming 1.2.1 and 1.3 releases.. maybe searching the posts (yes: a dead forum sucks) would results in a more immediate response

On Sep 16, 2008, at 4.37 PM, Peter wrote:

Indeed, what's up Mootools team? I hope this great framework is still
alive and maintained.

On Sep 16, 11:29 am, Torkil <[hidden email]> wrote:

What's up with mootools these days? The latest blog post is from june,
and this user group is so cluttered with other things that the
official news are hard to come by.

I'm just curious as to what is happening with the framework itself,
how things are progressing with the collection of plugins, etc. I'm
yearning for official news you might say :)

[AwesomeSauce-2]

Indeed...  What is up with mootools?

No updates on the blog, the closing of the forums without explanation,
and functions in 1.2 that still don't have documentation ($unlink()
anybody?)  It's enough to make me regret having chose Mootools as my
javascript framework of choice.  The leadership of the project has
clearly dissolved.

I hate to say it but jQuery is looking pretty good right now.  Awesome
community based support, hosting for user created plugins, and
frequent updates from project leaders...

On Sep 16, 2:29 am, Torkil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> What's up with mootools these days? The latest blog post is from june,
> and this user group is so cluttered with other things that the
> official news are hard to come by.
>
> I'm just curious as to what is happening with the framework itself,
> how things are progressing with the collection of plugins, etc. I'm
> yearning for official news you might say :)

[Valerio Proietti]

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

If you think jQuery is better, by all means, switch to it. jQuery is a great framework.

The state of the MooTools website is not optimal at the moment, but let me assure you that it isnt because we dont care about MooTools code. MooTools is being actively developed, and the fact that the blog isnt updated means we have nothing to say to the "community" at the moment. Developers know where to look for development builds, and thats enough for us, for now. We are not rushers, we have never been, and we will never be. One thing we will always do, when we decide to release, is provide the best possible code we can.

Developers are Developing, and thats the important stuff for a Developers framework. At least thats my own convoluted idea. If you're looking for a flashy website with a forum, you're probably using the wrong framework. MooTools is all about the code.

Also, for everyone reading this post, let me say it again: MooTools will never ever have a forum again. Google groups is working great for us, and we're very happy with it. I know, we still have no official way to promote plugins, but the forum was never a good solution for it. We are working on a solution (actually, i am not, the other developers are) but we are not rushing. If you need it yesterday, again, MooTools is not the right framework for you, and you're very welcome to switch to a framework that suits your needs better.

And now a few clarifications to your post:

the closing of the forums without explanation

Take a look at this blog post, under the section called Offsite Hosting of Version Management, Tickets, and Discussions : http://blog.mootools.net/2008/6/12/mootools-1-2-it-s-official

and functions in 1.2 that still don't have documentation ($unlink()
anybody?) 

They dont have documentation because they're not supposed to be used. If you have an use for $unlink, you can also understand its code.

Hope this clears up a few things :)

 - V

On Sep 16, 2008, at 5:48 PM, AwesomeSauce wrote:

Indeed...  What is up with mootools?

No updates on the blog, the closing of the forums without explanation,
and functions in 1.2 that still don't have documentation ($unlink()
anybody?)  It's enough to make me regret having chose Mootools as my
javascript framework of choice.  The leadership of the project has
clearly dissolved.

I hate to say it but jQuery is looking pretty good right now.  Awesome
community based support, hosting for user created plugins, and
frequent updates from project leaders...

On Sep 16, 2:29 am, Torkil <[hidden email]> wrote:

What's up with mootools these days? The latest blog post is from june,

and this user group is so cluttered with other things that the

official news are hard to come by.

I'm just curious as to what is happening with the framework itself,

how things are progressing with the collection of plugins, etc. I'm

yearning for official news you might say :)

[tombmedia]

Valerio,

I'd just like to maybe inject this one little thought. What happens if
we don't subscribe to the mailing list and come to the actual groups
webpage to find help or new information. That is the advantage of a
forum and the pain a lot of people are facing when coming here for the
first time. It took me a while to think about joining, but after a
while I stopped the email being sent to me. I get enough email, as I'm
sure everyone else on the internet can attest to.

That is why when I continue to ask about the state of things and I get
answers like just setup a filter I wonder if you guys really
understand peoples issues.

If anyone out there wants to take the mootools code and make a
commercial product out of it, so that I can pay for better support
than mootools provides, please do so. I know a lot of people who
would. At this point mootools seems as viable as wall street. Sure its
got a solid foundation, but take a look at what happens when the elite
don't care about the people.

And seriously, a happyface at the end of an email doesn't hide the
elitist attitude the spews from the mootools crew. All hail mootools
they hath spoken. (sorry for sandbagging all the nice ones)

[Guillermo Rauch]

Solutions to your problem:

- If you get too much correspondence: Abridged / Digest subscription type of Google Groups

- If you don't like what Google Groups looks like: Nabble (forums-like interface to a mailing list)

- If you want a full-fledged bulletin board: Mooforum

Enough has been said on this topic. Let's move on

On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 11:57 PM, tombmedia <[hidden email]> wrote:

Valerio,

I'd just like to maybe inject this one little thought. What happens if
we don't subscribe to the mailing list and come to the actual groups
webpage to find help or new information. That is the advantage of a
forum and the pain a lot of people are facing when coming here for the
first time. It took me a while to think about joining, but after a
while I stopped the email being sent to me. I get enough email, as I'm
sure everyone else on the internet can attest to.

That is why when I continue to ask about the state of things and I get
answers like just setup a filter I wonder if you guys really
understand peoples issues.

If anyone out there wants to take the mootools code and make a
commercial product out of it, so that I can pay for better support
than mootools provides, please do so. I know a lot of people who
would. At this point mootools seems as viable as wall street. Sure its
got a solid foundation, but take a look at what happens when the elite
don't care about the people.

And seriously, a happyface at the end of an email doesn't hide the
elitist attitude the spews from the mootools crew. All hail mootools
they hath spoken. (sorry for sandbagging all the nice ones)

--
Guillermo Rauch
http://devthought.com

[Jeremy B]

" the elite
don't care about the people.

And seriously, a happyface at the end of an email doesn't hide the
elitist attitude the spews from the mootools crew. All hail mootools
they hath spoken. (sorry for sandbagging all the nice ones)" ...

this is just stupid bullshit at this point ... elite ... elitist... 

come on ... 

:)

Jeremy

On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 8:02 PM, Guillermo Rauch <[hidden email]> wrote:

Solutions to your problem:

- If you get too much correspondence: Abridged / Digest subscription type of Google Groups

- If you don't like what Google Groups looks like: Nabble (forums-like interface to a mailing list)

- If you want a full-fledged bulletin board: Mooforum

Enough has been said on this topic. Let's move on

On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 11:57 PM, tombmedia <[hidden email]> wrote:

Valerio,

I'd just like to maybe inject this one little thought. What happens if
we don't subscribe to the mailing list and come to the actual groups
webpage to find help or new information. That is the advantage of a
forum and the pain a lot of people are facing when coming here for the
first time. It took me a while to think about joining, but after a
while I stopped the email being sent to me. I get enough email, as I'm
sure everyone else on the internet can attest to.

That is why when I continue to ask about the state of things and I get
answers like just setup a filter I wonder if you guys really
understand peoples issues.

If anyone out there wants to take the mootools code and make a
commercial product out of it, so that I can pay for better support
than mootools provides, please do so. I know a lot of people who
would. At this point mootools seems as viable as wall street. Sure its
got a solid foundation, but take a look at what happens when the elite
don't care about the people.

And seriously, a happyface at the end of an email doesn't hide the
elitist attitude the spews from the mootools crew. All hail mootools
they hath spoken. (sorry for sandbagging all the nice ones)

--
Guillermo Rauch
http://devthought.com

[nwhite-2]

Wake up people! Its evolution. The forum was too accessible, way too many script kiddies asking for help when they had no proper foundation in javascript removing precious resources from mootools. Tom posted earlier how he likes the direction of the site and how it caters to developers. Let's respect that.

If its so bad look at the other frameworks. Jquery and Prototype use google groups.

Yes we all get email but there are ways to manage it. I love having the discussions this way, I am more on top of what is going on with less effort. The only thing I could possibly see down the road is having multiple mail lists.

On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 11:19 PM, Jeremy B <[hidden email]> wrote:

" the elite
don't care about the people.

And seriously, a happyface at the end of an email doesn't hide the
elitist attitude the spews from the mootools crew. All hail mootools

they hath spoken. (sorry for sandbagging all the nice ones)" ...

this is just stupid bullshit at this point ... elite ... elitist... 

come on ... 

:)

Jeremy

On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 8:02 PM, Guillermo Rauch <[hidden email]> wrote:

Solutions to your problem:

- If you get too much correspondence: Abridged / Digest subscription type of Google Groups

- If you don't like what Google Groups looks like: Nabble (forums-like interface to a mailing list)

- If you want a full-fledged bulletin board: Mooforum

Enough has been said on this topic. Let's move on

On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 11:57 PM, tombmedia <[hidden email]> wrote:

Valerio,

I'd just like to maybe inject this one little thought. What happens if
we don't subscribe to the mailing list and come to the actual groups
webpage to find help or new information. That is the advantage of a
forum and the pain a lot of people are facing when coming here for the
first time. It took me a while to think about joining, but after a
while I stopped the email being sent to me. I get enough email, as I'm
sure everyone else on the internet can attest to.

That is why when I continue to ask about the state of things and I get
answers like just setup a filter I wonder if you guys really
understand peoples issues.

If anyone out there wants to take the mootools code and make a
commercial product out of it, so that I can pay for better support
than mootools provides, please do so. I know a lot of people who
would. At this point mootools seems as viable as wall street. Sure its
got a solid foundation, but take a look at what happens when the elite
don't care about the people.

And seriously, a happyface at the end of an email doesn't hide the
elitist attitude the spews from the mootools crew. All hail mootools
they hath spoken. (sorry for sandbagging all the nice ones)

--
Guillermo Rauch
http://devthought.com

[tomocchino]

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

Thank you Nathan and Guillermo.

It seems it's hard for the others to realize that the code is what's important, and I feel like no matter what we do or say, it will never be good enough for some.  I am certain this topic is long from dead, and i will have to address 'when are the forums coming back' at least 25 more times in the next 6 months.  Oh well, such is life...

- Tom

On Sep 17, 2008, at 5:48 AM, Nathan White wrote:

Wake up people! Its evolution. The forum was too accessible, way too many script kiddies asking for help when they had no proper foundation in javascript removing precious resources from mootools. Tom posted earlier how he likes the direction of the site and how it caters to developers. Let's respect that.

If its so bad look at the other frameworks. Jquery and Prototype use google groups.

Yes we all get email but there are ways to manage it. I love having the discussions this way, I am more on top of what is going on with less effort. The only thing I could possibly see down the road is having multiple mail lists.

On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 11:19 PM, Jeremy B <[hidden email]> wrote:

" the elite
don't care about the people.

And seriously, a happyface at the end of an email doesn't hide the
elitist attitude the spews from the mootools crew. All hail mootools

they hath spoken. (sorry for sandbagging all the nice ones)" ...

this is just stupid bullshit at this point ... elite ... elitist... 

come on ... 

:)

Jeremy

On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 8:02 PM, Guillermo Rauch <[hidden email]> wrote:

Solutions to your problem:

- If you get too much correspondence: Abridged / Digest subscription type of Google Groups

- If you don't like what Google Groups looks like: Nabble (forums-like interface to a mailing list)

- If you want a full-fledged bulletin board: Mooforum

Enough has been said on this topic. Let's move on

On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 11:57 PM, tombmedia <[hidden email]> wrote:

Valerio,

I'd just like to maybe inject this one little thought. What happens if
we don't subscribe to the mailing list and come to the actual groups
webpage to find help or new information. That is the advantage of a
forum and the pain a lot of people are facing when coming here for the
first time. It took me a while to think about joining, but after a
while I stopped the email being sent to me. I get enough email, as I'm
sure everyone else on the internet can attest to.

That is why when I continue to ask about the state of things and I get
answers like just setup a filter I wonder if you guys really
understand peoples issues.

If anyone out there wants to take the mootools code and make a
commercial product out of it, so that I can pay for better support
than mootools provides, please do so. I know a lot of people who
would. At this point mootools seems as viable as wall street. Sure its
got a solid foundation, but take a look at what happens when the elite
don't care about the people.

And seriously, a happyface at the end of an email doesn't hide the
elitist attitude the spews from the mootools crew. All hail mootools
they hath spoken. (sorry for sandbagging all the nice ones)

--
Guillermo Rauch
http://devthought.com

[tombmedia]

Some of those script kiddies actually learn your tools and become
proficient users. I'm just trying to point out how everyone who isn't
on the moo-royalty might feel. Do you really think that anyone looking
for a library now will feel comfortable with mootools knowing that you
obviously look down upon anyone who doesn't have the skill set of
yourselves. We all started out somewhere, don't forget that.

I'm not even using mootools anymore, I'm just trying to point out that
the little guys feels like you don't give a sh*t. Thanks for the
proof.

On Sep 17, 5:30 am, Tom Occhino <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thank you Nathan and Guillermo.
>
> It seems it's hard for the others to realize that the code is what's  
> important, and I feel like no matter what we do or say, it will never  
> be good enough for some.  I am certain this topic is long from dead,  
> and i will have to address 'when are the forums coming back' at least  
> 25 more times in the next 6 months.  Oh well, such is life...
>
> - Tom
>
> On Sep 17, 2008, at 5:48 AM, Nathan White wrote:
>
>
>
> > Wake up people! Its evolution. The forum was too accessible, way too  
> > many script kiddies asking for help when they had no proper  
> > foundation in javascript removing precious resources from mootools.  
> > Tom posted earlier how he likes the direction of the site and how it  
> > caters to developers. Let's respect that.
>
> > If its so bad look at the other frameworks. Jquery and Prototype use  
> > google groups.
>
> > Yes we all get email but there are ways to manage it. I love having  
> > the discussions this way, I am more on top of what is going on with  
> > less effort. The only thing I could possibly see down the road is  
> > having multiple mail lists.
>
> > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 11:19 PM, Jeremy B <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > " the elite
> > don't care about the people.
>
> > And seriously, a happyface at the end of an email doesn't hide the
> > elitist attitude the spews from the mootools crew. All hail mootools
> > they hath spoken. (sorry for sandbagging all the nice ones)" ...
>
> > this is just stupid bullshit at this point ... elite ... elitist...
>
> > come on ...
>
> > :)
> > Jeremy
>
> > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 8:02 PM, Guillermo Rauch <[hidden email]>  
> > wrote:
> > Solutions to your problem:
> > - If you get too much correspondence: Abridged / Digest subscription  
> > type of Google Groups
> > - If you don't like what Google Groups looks like: Nabble (forums-
> > like interface to a mailing list)
> > - If you want a full-fledged bulletin board: Mooforum
>
> > Enough has been said on this topic. Let's move on
>
> > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 11:57 PM, tombmedia <[hidden email]>  
> > wrote:
>
> > Valerio,
>
> > I'd just like to maybe inject this one little thought. What happens if
> > we don't subscribe to the mailing list and come to the actual groups
> > webpage to find help or new information. That is the advantage of a
> > forum and the pain a lot of people are facing when coming here for the
> > first time. It took me a while to think about joining, but after a
> > while I stopped the email being sent to me. I get enough email, as I'm
> > sure everyone else on the internet can attest to.
>
> > That is why when I continue to ask about the state of things and I get
> > answers like just setup a filter I wonder if you guys really
> > understand peoples issues.
>
> > If anyone out there wants to take the mootools code and make a
> > commercial product out of it, so that I can pay for better support
> > than mootools provides, please do so. I know a lot of people who
> > would. At this point mootools seems as viable as wall street. Sure its
> > got a solid foundation, but take a look at what happens when the elite
> > don't care about the people.
>
> > And seriously, a happyface at the end of an email doesn't hide the
> > elitist attitude the spews from the mootools crew. All hail mootools
> > they hath spoken. (sorry for sandbagging all the nice ones)
>
> > --
> > Guillermo Rauch
> >http://devthought.com

[tombmedia]

And I've been to the mooforum, and nabble. It's not bad. Paradigm
shift, old dog, new tricks, etc. It is something everyone can migrate
to.

This isn't, and I stress, IS NOT a code, forum or groups issue. It is
an attitude problem. Plain and simple.

On Sep 17, 5:30 am, Tom Occhino <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thank you Nathan and Guillermo.
>
> It seems it's hard for the others to realize that the code is what's  
> important, and I feel like no matter what we do or say, it will never  
> be good enough for some.  I am certain this topic is long from dead,  
> and i will have to address 'when are the forums coming back' at least  
> 25 more times in the next 6 months.  Oh well, such is life...
>
> - Tom
>
> On Sep 17, 2008, at 5:48 AM, Nathan White wrote:
>
>
>
> > Wake up people! Its evolution. The forum was too accessible, way too  
> > many script kiddies asking for help when they had no proper  
> > foundation in javascript removing precious resources from mootools.  
> > Tom posted earlier how he likes the direction of the site and how it  
> > caters to developers. Let's respect that.
>
> > If its so bad look at the other frameworks. Jquery and Prototype use  
> > google groups.
>
> > Yes we all get email but there are ways to manage it. I love having  
> > the discussions this way, I am more on top of what is going on with  
> > less effort. The only thing I could possibly see down the road is  
> > having multiple mail lists.
>
> > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 11:19 PM, Jeremy B <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > " the elite
> > don't care about the people.
>
> > And seriously, a happyface at the end of an email doesn't hide the
> > elitist attitude the spews from the mootools crew. All hail mootools
> > they hath spoken. (sorry for sandbagging all the nice ones)" ...
>
> > this is just stupid bullshit at this point ... elite ... elitist...
>
> > come on ...
>
> > :)
> > Jeremy
>
> > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 8:02 PM, Guillermo Rauch <[hidden email]>  
> > wrote:
> > Solutions to your problem:
> > - If you get too much correspondence: Abridged / Digest subscription  
> > type of Google Groups
> > - If you don't like what Google Groups looks like: Nabble (forums-
> > like interface to a mailing list)
> > - If you want a full-fledged bulletin board: Mooforum
>
> > Enough has been said on this topic. Let's move on
>
> > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 11:57 PM, tombmedia <[hidden email]>  
> > wrote:
>
> > Valerio,
>
> > I'd just like to maybe inject this one little thought. What happens if
> > we don't subscribe to the mailing list and come to the actual groups
> > webpage to find help or new information. That is the advantage of a
> > forum and the pain a lot of people are facing when coming here for the
> > first time. It took me a while to think about joining, but after a
> > while I stopped the email being sent to me. I get enough email, as I'm
> > sure everyone else on the internet can attest to.
>
> > That is why when I continue to ask about the state of things and I get
> > answers like just setup a filter I wonder if you guys really
> > understand peoples issues.
>
> > If anyone out there wants to take the mootools code and make a
> > commercial product out of it, so that I can pay for better support
> > than mootools provides, please do so. I know a lot of people who
> > would. At this point mootools seems as viable as wall street. Sure its
> > got a solid foundation, but take a look at what happens when the elite
> > don't care about the people.
>
> > And seriously, a happyface at the end of an email doesn't hide the
> > elitist attitude the spews from the mootools crew. All hail mootools
> > they hath spoken. (sorry for sandbagging all the nice ones)
>
> > --
> > Guillermo Rauch
> >http://devthought.com

[Guillermo Rauch]

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 10:58 PM, tombmedia <[hidden email]> wrote:

Some of those script kiddies actually learn your tools and become
proficient users. I'm just trying to point out how everyone who isn't
on the moo-royalty might feel. Do you really think that anyone looking
for a library now will feel comfortable with mootools knowing that you
obviously look down upon anyone who doesn't have the skill set of
yourselves. We all started out somewhere, don't forget that.

If I had to advise someone who is "starting out", I wouldn't tell him to go straight to MooTools.

Regardless, reality shows many beginners attempt to use it anyway, and I've seen them

succeed at it with help from both the forums and the mailing list.

 

I'm not even using mootools anymore, I'm just trying to point out that
the little guys feels like you don't give a sh*t. Thanks for the
proof.

I think you're failing to see the whole picture. All the official developers are saying

is that their focus is mootools code. And personally I'm glad it is! 

That doesn't mean they give a shit about novices, and I'm really sorry you don't see that. 

Stating such a thing equals ignoring all the effort invested by MT devs: the docs, the

demos, the mootorial, the blog articles, and so on. As a side note, I've personally never seen

a beginner-level resource as valuable as Aaron's mootorial.

If you feel MT is not as beginner-friendly as you wish it was, you could perfectly be contributing

to the mooforum or writing a tutorial.

--
Guillermo Rauch
http://devthought.com

[cronix-2]

Im sorry, but where in the hell is it written that people using a free
product are entitled to support?  The devs have jobs and lives to
live, and then they work for free developing mootools and are NICE
enough to SHARE it freely with the rest of the world.  Just about all
of my 'support' questions have been answered by regular users, not the
dev team, although from time to time they do chime in as well.  Im
tired of all of the mootools bashing.  If you are unsatisfied with
this FREE product, use something else and quit jamming up this group
with extraneous bitching.

-CroNiX

On Sep 16, 7:57 pm, tombmedia <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Valerio,
.....
> If anyone out there wants to take the mootools code and make a
> commercial product out of it, so that I can pay for better support
> than mootools provides, please do so. I know a lot of people who
> would. At this point mootools seems as viable as wall street. Sure its
> got a solid foundation, but take a look at what happens when the elite
> don't care about the people.

[nwhite-2]

I speak only for myself. There was a period of time where I was very active in the forums. As 1.2 was approaching I saw the best place to contribute was taking an active role with "support". I love helping people, I enjoy sharing code and ideas.

While there was a "read before you post" message. This was largely ignored by a majority of the posters. For a long time I gave people the benefit of the doubt, providing code snippets, resources and time. This usually lead to more questions like "can you write this?".  If I was lucky to get sample code from the user it was usually work related. The common theme that came across to me was a general lack of respect for not following the rules and putting effort forth, a general attitude of "you need to support me".  This has a tendency to leave a bad taste in your mouth.

Mootools is a gift, no one is getting paid. Perusing through the code you begin to realize the intense amount of background knowledge and theory that goes into every line of code, years and years of experience given to you for free.  The core team is truly talented. More importantly with software development they are extremely focused and disciplined and have kept the vision and purpose clear.

My "script kiddies" comment above may have been a tad out of line considering the current state of affairs and the arguments that are still taking place. I want to clarify that I am still more then happy to help anyone provided they show some effort. I think the mootools community as a whole is extremely receptive to helping others. To me it appears the issues arise when individuals inject into the community the way things should or shouldn't be done. When a direction has been made clear from day 1 these remarks are at best naive, at worse offensive. Being pushed into a corner, one generally pushes back.

With the migration to the google-groups I still see troubleshooting questions asked, and many of them are responded to in very fast time frames. The difference, the people asking now are really trying. They are identifying what they are trying to do and where they are getting stuck. Users like this will only help the community to grow and mature as mootools grows they grow.

I think part of the perceived "attitude" problem stems from Moo.Fx being incredibly successful. The interface was so smart and slick that it attracted a very large audience. Attached were all the negative connotations of Web 2.0. As a developing framework it was not in its best interest to cater to all. As most of these users are fickle and will throw their loyalty to the wind for the next buzzword. So I feel it was wise for the framework to concentrate on the core of the community, there is a very strong foundation here. 

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 10:02 PM, tombmedia <[hidden email]> wrote:

And I've been to the mooforum, and nabble. It's not bad. Paradigm
shift, old dog, new tricks, etc. It is something everyone can migrate
to.

This isn't, and I stress, IS NOT a code, forum or groups issue. It is
an attitude problem. Plain and simple.

On Sep 17, 5:30 am, Tom Occhino <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thank you Nathan and Guillermo.
>
> It seems it's hard for the others to realize that the code is what's  
> important, and I feel like no matter what we do or say, it will never  
> be good enough for some.  I am certain this topic is long from dead,  
> and i will have to address 'when are the forums coming back' at least  
> 25 more times in the next 6 months.  Oh well, such is life...
>
> - Tom
>
> On Sep 17, 2008, at 5:48 AM, Nathan White wrote:
>
>
>
> > Wake up people! Its evolution. The forum was too accessible, way too  
> > many script kiddies asking for help when they had no proper  
> > foundation in javascript removing precious resources from mootools.  
> > Tom posted earlier how he likes the direction of the site and how it  
> > caters to developers. Let's respect that.
>
> > If its so bad look at the other frameworks. Jquery and Prototype use  
> > google groups.
>
> > Yes we all get email but there are ways to manage it. I love having  
> > the discussions this way, I am more on top of what is going on with  
> > less effort. The only thing I could possibly see down the road is  
> > having multiple mail lists.
>

> > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 11:19 PM, Jeremy B <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > " the elite
> > don't care about the people.
>
> > And seriously, a happyface at the end of an email doesn't hide the
> > elitist attitude the spews from the mootools crew. All hail mootools
> > they hath spoken. (sorry for sandbagging all the nice ones)" ...
>
> > this is just stupid bullshit at this point ... elite ... elitist...
>
> > come on ...
>
> > :)
> > Jeremy
>

> > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 8:02 PM, Guillermo Rauch <[hidden email]>  

> > wrote:
> > Solutions to your problem:
> > - If you get too much correspondence: Abridged / Digest subscription  
> > type of Google Groups
> > - If you don't like what Google Groups looks like: Nabble (forums-
> > like interface to a mailing list)
> > - If you want a full-fledged bulletin board: Mooforum
>
> > Enough has been said on this topic. Let's move on
>

> > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 11:57 PM, tombmedia <[hidden email]>  

> > wrote:
>
> > Valerio,
>
> > I'd just like to maybe inject this one little thought. What happens if
> > we don't subscribe to the mailing list and come to the actual groups
> > webpage to find help or new information. That is the advantage of a
> > forum and the pain a lot of people are facing when coming here for the
> > first time. It took me a while to think about joining, but after a
> > while I stopped the email being sent to me. I get enough email, as I'm
> > sure everyone else on the internet can attest to.
>
> > That is why when I continue to ask about the state of things and I get
> > answers like just setup a filter I wonder if you guys really
> > understand peoples issues.
>
> > If anyone out there wants to take the mootools code and make a
> > commercial product out of it, so that I can pay for better support
> > than mootools provides, please do so. I know a lot of people who
> > would. At this point mootools seems as viable as wall street. Sure its
> > got a solid foundation, but take a look at what happens when the elite
> > don't care about the people.
>
> > And seriously, a happyface at the end of an email doesn't hide the
> > elitist attitude the spews from the mootools crew. All hail mootools
> > they hath spoken. (sorry for sandbagging all the nice ones)
>
> > --
> > Guillermo Rauch
> >http://devthought.com

[tombmedia]

No one bashes mootools. It's funny how you all say that. We all love
it.

I used to suggest to EVERYONE starting out with javascript TO use
mootools. The way it standardizes everything, creates a single library
that works flawlessly across all browsers. Browser compatibly is a
huge hurdle in developing with javascript and with that not a concern
developers are able to spend more time being creative. That's why you
see the wide variety of creative juices with all these libraries.
Browser compatibility and flawless execution (at least in some). It is
very fluent, and is well documented. It also had a good community.
Mootools is/was great for all levels of developers, and I'd rather
novices learn the right way off the bat.

But, once again, this is not a bash on mootools. This is not asking
for support (unless someone wants to create a company and bill me).
This is not a kick in the teeth to all the wonderful contributors and
programmers. But seriously. I have stated that sometimes people don't
subscribe to this list and surf to the page to find their support. I
still don't see that you guys get that. And telling them to subscribe
or else is a little too draconian. I'm not trying to get people upset,
I'm not trying to get people to provide services. I understand you
have your priorities. But read over the responses you guys make to
people. You are A-Class assholes. Which you can totally do, you don't
ask for money, you don't care about the state of the community. The
code speaks for itself.

Well it does to a certain point, but I get a LOT more from everyones
attitude. There is nothing in the code to make anyone stop using
mootools. Remember that. No one leaves your community for the code.
You need to think about that people. Why would they leave then?

It sounds like the success of mootools has gone to peoples heads. I
certainly didn't stop using mootools because the code was faulty. I
left because 12 replies to this thread and still no one has
acknowledged the scenario where you don't subscribe, get lost in the
groups and go to an old blog. Probably 10 more responses telling me to
stop demanding support from mootools. Lynch Mob Mentality. Burn the
Witch!

[nwhite-2]

In your opinion what makes jquery or prototype any different? They have the same model of support.

I use to share the same opinion with you. Using mootools as a teaching platform but I have been more cautious for a number of reasons.
1. I make sure the individual has a very solid understanding of css and is aware of different issues across browsers. Proper css and html structure can avoid many problems.
2. I teach simple javascript to learn and explain the DOM. Yes, some of this involves inline, clarity is key to foundation.
3. I work on the fundamental of javascript structures and concepts.

I usually end up pushing some people away from mootools because of the advance OO paradigm that is in place. These "developers" never want to hear the word polymorphic. This is ok. While to me mootools code is beautiful and elegant there is a lot of magic in the syntax if you don't understand basic OO concepts, closures and the prototype chain.

With that said it seems that almost anyone can implement a well written mootools class.

This is the dichotomy that creates the tension, the perception of a-holes. 

I personally believe that this problem is also being addressed by the mootools team with the plugin system that is in development. This will give the world a wonderful resource for drop in scripts. While mantaining a focus towards the core community.

Growing pains.

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 11:56 PM, tombmedia <[hidden email]> wrote:

No one bashes mootools. It's funny how you all say that. We all love
it.

I used to suggest to EVERYONE starting out with javascript TO use
mootools. The way it standardizes everything, creates a single library
that works flawlessly across all browsers. Browser compatibly is a
huge hurdle in developing with javascript and with that not a concern
developers are able to spend more time being creative. That's why you
see the wide variety of creative juices with all these libraries.
Browser compatibility and flawless execution (at least in some). It is
very fluent, and is well documented. It also had a good community.
Mootools is/was great for all levels of developers, and I'd rather
novices learn the right way off the bat.

But, once again, this is not a bash on mootools. This is not asking
for support (unless someone wants to create a company and bill me).
This is not a kick in the teeth to all the wonderful contributors and
programmers. But seriously. I have stated that sometimes people don't
subscribe to this list and surf to the page to find their support. I
still don't see that you guys get that. And telling them to subscribe
or else is a little too draconian. I'm not trying to get people upset,
I'm not trying to get people to provide services. I understand you
have your priorities. But read over the responses you guys make to
people. You are A-Class assholes. Which you can totally do, you don't
ask for money, you don't care about the state of the community. The
code speaks for itself.

Well it does to a certain point, but I get a LOT more from everyones
attitude. There is nothing in the code to make anyone stop using
mootools. Remember that. No one leaves your community for the code.
You need to think about that people. Why would they leave then?

It sounds like the success of mootools has gone to peoples heads. I
certainly didn't stop using mootools because the code was faulty. I
left because 12 replies to this thread and still no one has
acknowledged the scenario where you don't subscribe, get lost in the
groups and go to an old blog. Probably 10 more responses telling me to
stop demanding support from mootools. Lynch Mob Mentality. Burn the
Witch!

[Torkil]

This was NOT meant to be another one of those "why did you close the
forums" things.

I have read tons of posts concerning the closed forums, and I did not
want to start another one of those discussions!

I can perfectly well understand that developers actively contributing
to mootools find the newbie questions in the forums tiresome, and it
really takes time away from the development part of being a developer.
It's not very fulfilling to spend 90% of your time to support your
product, if your product is not a commercial one.

Those things aside:

I was just wondering about the progress of things. Since the official
blog has not been updated in 3 months, I think that is a valid
question. The blog also functions as a marketing tool, promoting
MooTools at the very least, and if there are no new MooTools releases
to speak of, one can at least keep the users wanting more by giving
small teasers on what is to come. New features, performance
improvements, implementation of W3C selector api, etc.

Posting to a blog is not something that takes nearly as much time as
keeping forum users happy with free and unlimited support ;)

Since we are already discussing forums in this thread, here are my
thoughts:

- Having a public forum on the official site gives the MooTools
community a common place to hang out, meet, share, help one another
and GROW. That's important for any community.
- Having a public forum where core developers don't hang out at all,
is better than no forum what so ever. A forum can run itself with the
help of dedicated followers willing to step in as moderators. We can
survive a few threads with "where are the developers?" whining. I will
volunteer to reply to those threads myself, explaining why the
developers are busy developing.

If you, the core developers, find that forums are just tiresome and
none-productive, I totally respect and understand that. You want to
spend your time developing. How about just setting up a forum (doesn't
take too long!) and find some dedicated individuals willing to
moderate it (doesn't take too long either!)? Just set it up and never
visit it at all. At least you have then given the community an
official place to hang out, share, connect and most importantly: GROW!

[Yuffster]

On Sep 18, 3:23 am, Torkil <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If you, the core developers, find that forums are just tiresome and
> none-productive, I totally respect and understand that. You want to
> spend your time developing. How about just setting up a forum (doesn't
> take too long!) and find some dedicated individuals willing to
> moderate it (doesn't take too long either!)? Just set it up and never
> visit it at all. At least you have then given the community an
> official place to hang out, share, connect and most importantly: GROW!

Great idea: http://mooforum.net/