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Limits of mp3

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Allistair Bywater

Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

I have just now upgraded my mobile/cell phone to one that can store and play
mp3 files. To save myself hours of experimentation, can anyone say roughly
how far one can go before compression artefacts are noticeable. I generally
listen to the music not the sound, won't be toooo picky.

Kind Regards

Allistair
ra.bywater@...

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Rob Kudla

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

On Sunday 03 February 2008 09:44, Allistair Bywater wrote:
> I have just now upgraded my mobile/cell phone to one that can store
> and play mp3 files. To save myself hours of experimentation, can
> anyone say roughly how far one can go before compression artefacts
> are noticeable. I generally listen to the music not the sound,
> won't be toooo picky.

It depends on the source material and the playback hardware. My
friend just got a phone that plays mp3s too, and we've gone as low as
16kbit on most files but needed to go as high as 64kbit on a few of
them.

The bigger problem for us was simply the poor quality of the ringer
speaker; making some waveforms loud enough to be heard from a
distance often makes them distort on the phone even if they play fine
on the laptop. Turning down the volume on the phone reduced the
distortion but defeated the purpose, so clearly the phone's speaker
is mismatched with its amp or something.

Rob

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Gale Andrews

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 11:54:44 -0500
Rob <sourceforge-raindog2@...> wrote:

> On Sunday 03 February 2008 09:44, Allistair Bywater wrote:
> > I have just now upgraded my mobile/cell phone to one that can store
> > and play mp3 files. To save myself hours of experimentation, can
> > anyone say roughly how far one can go before compression artefacts
> > are noticeable. I generally listen to the music not the sound,
> > won't be toooo picky.
>
> It depends on the source material and the playback hardware. My
> friend just got a phone that plays mp3s too, and we've gone as low as
> 16kbit on most files but needed to go as high as 64kbit on a few of
> them.
> The bigger problem for us was simply the poor quality of the ringer
> speaker; making some waveforms loud enough to be heard from a
> distance often makes them distort on the phone even if they play fine
> on the laptop. Turning down the volume on the phone reduced the
> distortion but defeated the purpose, so clearly the phone's speaker
> is mismatched with its amp or something.

Using Effect > Compressor in Audacity before exporting the MP3
will help because it reduces the difference between loud and
soft. Also consider using Equalization to reduce the low and high
frequencies that the phone speaker won't be able to cope with.
If you are using a very low bit rate like 16 kbps LAME should
apply a Low Pass filter to reduce the high frequencies anyway,
as processing these for the encoding takes up a disproportionate
amount of the available bits, but you can always reduce them
before export as well.

Gale

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Allistair Bywater

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

Thanks, I should mention I plan to listen on earphones only.

Kind Regards

Allistair
ra.bywater@...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob" <sourceforge-raindog2@...>
To: <audacity-users@...>
Sent: 03 February 2008 16:54
Subject: Re: [Audacity-users] Limits of mp3

> On Sunday 03 February 2008 09:44, Allistair Bywater wrote:
>> I have just now upgraded my mobile/cell phone to one that can store
>> and play mp3 files. To save myself hours of experimentation, can
>> anyone say roughly how far one can go before compression artefacts
>> are noticeable. I generally listen to the music not the sound,
>> won't be toooo picky.
>
> It depends on the source material and the playback hardware. My
> friend just got a phone that plays mp3s too, and we've gone as low as
> 16kbit on most files but needed to go as high as 64kbit on a few of
> them.
>
> The bigger problem for us was simply the poor quality of the ringer
> speaker; making some waveforms loud enough to be heard from a
> distance often makes them distort on the phone even if they play fine
> on the laptop. Turning down the volume on the phone reduced the
> distortion but defeated the purpose, so clearly the phone's speaker
> is mismatched with its amp or something.
>
> Rob
>
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Rob Kudla

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

On Sunday 03 February 2008 13:16, Gale Andrews wrote:
> Using Effect > Compressor in Audacity before exporting the MP3
> will help because it reduces the difference between loud and
> soft.

This is exactly what we've been doing. Without the compression, the
loudest bits were distorted and the softest bits were inaudible.

I've discovered the "Fast Lookahead Limiter" plugin (I don't know
where it's from, probably the cwt package) seems to compress more
aggressively than the built-in compressor without introducing any
noticeable clicks or other artifacts of overcompression. I don't
know whether it's the lookahead aspect that helps, or the ability to
set attack time (delay time, in this case) lower than the 100msec
allowed by the built-in compressor.

> If you are using a very low bit rate like 16 kbps LAME should
> apply a Low Pass filter to reduce the high frequencies anyway,

This is what I've been relying on, but I've also tried converting to
16KHz or 11025Hz before running it through lame, which should remove
those considerations altogether (and as I said, I've been checking
them on the laptop prior to mailing them to the phone.)

I don't see this as an Audacity problem at all, nor as a limitation of
mp3 compression, but one with the phone's lousy speaker and/or amp.
I've read on other forums that it's possible the phone and/or her
carrier are transcoding the mp3 files on the fly into some Qualcomm
codec. (It's a Samsung U700 "Gleam" in case anyone's currently phone
shopping. Try with your own tones before you buy.)

Rob

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Alain Mouette

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

There are some hints here: http://jthz.com/mp3/

And I edited this old thread that can help:

> > 2) "The best and most standard sample rate is 44.1 KHz only. That
> > converts to MP3 most easily."
For all I could learn from many sources around the internet, the best is
to resample with LAME at encoding time, as it will be done with high
resolution and non linear interpolation.

>> >> 3) "For maximum compression you shoud use VBR. It is safe,
>> >> *every* player accepts it." - the elapsed/remaining
>> >> time/duration may not be displayed correctly
> > - when you fast forward or rewind, you may suddenly end up to
> > unwanted positions (hmm, sounds a bit more than intended...)
> > or tracks, or at least *now* the elapsed time is displayed
> > incorrectly
OK, threre could be these "minor inconvenients". But I believe this
should be wheighted aganinst other aspects.

> > Finally, the quality issue. I have not verified that I audio can be
> > encoded into smaller files by using VBR mode, retaining the equal or
> > superior quality when compared to CBR. Quite the opposite. I've
> > found that (with lame) lower bitrates (128 kbps or below for stereo)
> > benefit from CBR and medium or high (around 160 kbps and up for
> > stereo) benefit from VBR.
> > I may not know about the latest version of lame, but lame has not
> > been designed to produce small files - it is designed for creating
> > high quality files.

I made many tests, and what happens is this: with 128k, some high
pitched high volume sound get really bad. With 256k they are *usualy* ok.

With VBR and a little filtering, I have an average 140k and *all* high
piched sounds are perfect. So I understand that this brings both
impouvements in size and quality.

This is what I use for CAR and OFFICE quality, not for home hearing:
"-V5 --vbr-new -q0 -Y --lowpass 16.5 --scale 0.99", please don't say
that this is bad or whatever, it *sounds* very good in a car...

As to how to set these parameters in Audacity, I also would like some
help...

Alain

Allistair Bywater escreveu:

> I have just now upgraded my mobile/cell phone to one that can store and play
> mp3 files. To save myself hours of experimentation, can anyone say roughly
> how far one can go before compression artefacts are noticeable. I generally
> listen to the music not the sound, won't be toooo picky.
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Allistair
> ra.bywater@...
>

Alain Mouette

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

Gale Andrews escreveu:
>
> Using Effect > Compressor in Audacity before exporting the MP3

Do you know of a standalone compressor (for Linux)? I already spent a
lot of time searching for one without success

Thanks,
Alain

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Robert C

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

sox.sf.net can do it, although I haven't tried their compressor.

Robert

Alain M. wrote:

> Gale Andrews escreveu:
>
>> Using Effect > Compressor in Audacity before exporting the MP3
>>
>
> Do you know of a standalone compressor (for Linux)? I already spent a
> lot of time searching for one without success
>
> Thanks,
> Alain
>
>
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Alain Mouette

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

Rob escreveu:
> On Sunday 03 February 2008 13:16, Gale Andrews wrote:
>> Using Effect > Compressor in Audacity before exporting the MP3
>> will help because it reduces the difference between loud and
>> soft.
>
> This is exactly what we've been doing. Without the compression, the
> loudest bits were distorted and the softest bits were inaudible.

Could you please send some sets of parameters that you used with good
results? Thanks

----------
Robert and Christine Coleman escreveu:
> sox.sf.net can do it, although I haven't tried their compressor.

Hi, thanks, it looks interesting. And... I already have it in my
computer ;-)

Alain

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Rob Kudla

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

On Tuesday 05 February 2008 16:03, Alain M. wrote:
> Could you please send some sets of parameters that you used with
> good results? Thanks

Well, attack time was always the minimum, compression level varied
from 4:1 to 10:1, and threshold varied from -9db to -30db, all
depending on the sound. Wish I had a magic set of parameters, but
random sounds you get from the net or from ripping CDs tend to have
different levels. Even with all the trial and error on the PC side,
I still had to do a few of them over because of the lousy sound
hardware on the phone.

There used to be a really aggressive compression plugin I used in Cool
Edit in the late 90's that would take anything above the noise
threshold and raise it to like -3db. I've recorded a few telephone
interviews lately and wish I had that now, because with my recording
apparatus, my side comes through at mic levels while the other person
comes through at headphone levels. I have to compress it repeatedly
using Audacity's compressor, or even with the "fast lookahead
limiter" plugin, to even be able to hear myself.

Rob

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Stephane Ascoet-3

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

Gale Andrews :
> Using Effect > Compressor in Audacity before exporting the MP3
> will help because it reduces the difference between loud and
> soft.
Hi, this is a VERY BAD idea. This trend is one of the worst thing of our
century:
<http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/17777619/the_death_of_high_fidelity/print>
> frequencies that the phone speaker won't be able to cope with.
Listening to music with a phone speaker... Well, perhaps that you want
to go the cave age again?

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Gale Andrews

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 01:41:15 +0100
Stephane Ascoet <stephaneascoet@...>///NOT SUBSCRIBED/// wrote:

> Gale Andrews :
> > Using Effect > Compressor in Audacity before exporting the MP3
> > will help because it reduces the difference between loud and
> > soft.
> Hi, this is a VERY BAD idea. This trend is one of the worst thing of our
> century:
> <http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/17777619/the_death_of_high_fidelity/print>
>
> > frequencies that the phone speaker won't be able to cope with.
> Listening to music with a phone speaker... Well, perhaps that you want
> to go the cave age again?

I agree compression is a bad thing for the music I mostly listen
to (classical). Not everyone will agree it's bad for pop, and if you
must listen on a phone it's essential or you won't hear it properly at
all.

Gale

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Rob Kudla

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

On Saturday 09 February 2008 19:41, Stephane Ascoet wrote:
> > frequencies that the phone speaker won't be able to cope with.
>
> Listening to music with a phone speaker... Well, perhaps that you
> want to go the cave age again?

We were talking about making ringtones, not listening to music on a
phone. Catch up.

Rob

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Gale Andrews

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 15:38:28 +0100
Stephane Ascoet <sascoet@...> wrote:
> Gale Andrews a écrit :
> > must listen on a phone it's essential or you won't hear it properly at
> > all.
> >
> Why?

Because of the low quality of phone speakers. Quiet parts of the
music can't be heard unless you turn the volume up so high that
the loud parts then distort.

Gale

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Billy Geiger-2

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

Yes, Stephane,

The phone amplifier has a vocal range
(100hz to 1Khz {?})....unlike the 20hz
to 20Khz musical range....

BG:) <scalemodeler@...>

Gale Andrews wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 15:38:28 +0100
> Stephane Ascoet <sascoet@...> wrote:
>> Gale Andrews a écrit :
>>> must listen on a phone it's essential or you won't hear it properly at
>>> all.
>>>
>> Why?
>
> Because of the low quality of phone speakers. Quiet parts of the
> music can't be heard unless you turn the volume up so high that
> the loud parts then distort.
>
> Gale
>
>
>
>
>
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Alain Mouette

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

Gale Andrews escreveu:

> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 01:41:15 +0100
> Stephane Ascoet <stephaneascoet@...>///NOT SUBSCRIBED/// wrote:
>> Gale Andrews :
>>> Using Effect > Compressor in Audacity before exporting the MP3
>>> will help because it reduces the difference between loud and
>>> soft.
>> Hi, this is a VERY BAD idea. This trend is one of the worst thing of our
>> century:
>> <http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/17777619/the_death_of_high_fidelity/print>
>>
>>> frequencies that the phone speaker won't be able to cope with.
>> Listening to music with a phone speaker... Well, perhaps that you want
>> to go the cave age again?
>
> I agree compression is a bad thing for the music I mostly listen
> to (classical). Not everyone will agree it's bad for pop, and if you
> must listen on a phone it's essential or you won't hear it properly at
> all.

Do you say that if I am driving cross country, I have either to a) not
listen to classic music at all or b) byt a very expensive car that does
not produce ambient nois?

I like to listen to music in my car. stop. So I need compression for
many music styles. That is a personal option, and of course I keep the
originals for whenever I can use them.

DON'T CONDEMN WHAT YOU DONT LIKE. The name of that is dictatorship.

Alain

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Gale Andrews

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:54:43 -0200
"Alain M." <alainm@...> wrote:

> Gale Andrews escreveu:
> > On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 01:41:15 +0100
> > Stephane Ascoet <stephaneascoet@...>///NOT SUBSCRIBED/// wrote:
> >> Gale Andrews :
> >>> Using Effect > Compressor in Audacity before exporting the MP3
> >>> will help because it reduces the difference between loud and
> >>> soft.
> >> Hi, this is a VERY BAD idea. This trend is one of the worst thing of our
> >> century:
> >> <http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/17777619/the_death_of_high_fidelity/print>
> >>
> >>> frequencies that the phone speaker won't be able to cope with.
> >> Listening to music with a phone speaker... Well, perhaps that you want
> >> to go the cave age again?
> >
> > I agree compression is a bad thing for the music I mostly listen
> > to (classical). Not everyone will agree it's bad for pop, and if you
> > must listen on a phone it's essential or you won't hear it properly at
> > all.
>
> Do you say that if I am driving cross country, I have either to a) not
> listen to classic music at all or b) byt a very expensive car that does
> not produce ambient nois?

Of course not. Just like if you must listen to classical music on a
phone, you'll need compression if you do so in a car - this was the
very reason Chris Capel created his lookahead compressor I
mentioned the other day.
>
> I like to listen to music in my car. stop. So I need compression for
> many music styles.

Agreed (though bear in mind if you have it too loud it's dangerous
because you might be less aware of other road users).

> of course I keep the originals for whenever I can use them.

Also agreed, I was referring to listening to classical music in the
proper environment at home, in a quiet room, where you can
appreciate it properly and with full concentration.

> DON'T CONDEMN WHAT YOU DONT LIKE.

If you read my message you will see I said "I agree compression is a
bad thing", not "compression is a bad thing", so it was just my
personal opinion like you are voicing yours (maybe based on hearing
some overcompressed classical CDs).

Gale

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Alain Mouette

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

Gale Andrews escreveu:
> Just like if you must listen to classical music on a
> phone, you'll need compression if you do so in a car - this was the
> very reason Chris Capel created his lookahead compressor I
> mentioned the other day.

Which I tested and liked very much :)

> If you read my message you will see I said "I agree compression is a
> bad thing", not "compression is a bad thing", so it was just my
> personal opinion like you are voicing yours

:)

> (maybe based on hearing some overcompressed classical CDs).

That might have been caused by "Hooked on classics" ;-)

Bye

Alain

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David Smith-14

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded

It was 17 Feb 2008, when Gale Andrews commented:

Another factor. The standard for POTS phones allows for voice limited to
30 Hz to 3000 Hz. A bare minimum for speech only. Amplification and
compression doesn't change the limitations of that bandwidth. When Sprint
started the whole "pin drop" promotion, the difference was boosting the
bass, IIRC, but the high end was the same.

The limits were established based on the limitations of the hardware a
century ago. Some of the other electrical tolerances are still the same
also, and can cause serious problems with newer electronics. The phone co
says "well, that's what the standard allows, and we lived up to the
standard, and if smoke comes out of your new phone, hey, sucks to be you."

Doesn't always happen, but it happens. Look for "loop current" in
particular as what might turn out to be a serious issue with some phone
electronics.

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David Smith-14

Re: Limits of mp3

Reply Threaded