Lessons learned thus far from OOTB theming sprint

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vedaw () Lessons learned thus far from OOTB theming sprint
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I wanted to point out a few things that I've learned during the first wave
of the OOTB theming project, as I'm seeing some trends. In some cases, I may
be completely off base, but I'd love to throw these out for feedback.

1) We need a readme for all of our themes that give guidelines on the kinds
of things that should be included (how to install, contact information,
prerequisites, browsers it was tested against, licensing, etc.). There's
apparently one for WordPress that we could pretty easily Plone-ify with some
input. This would be included as part of the paster template.

2) We need an instruction set on plone.org that advocates best practices.
We're collecting this information now.

3) In inspecting a lot of the themes going past, I'm noticing that there are
css and theming-related files turning up in both a skins directory and the
browser directory. Personally, I don't see the value of having theming stuff
inside the browser directory, and we're ending up with a lot of empty, junky
stylesheets. It feels like mixing apples and oranges, and I'd like to see
the theming stuff wind up only in the skins folder. This would mean a change
to the paster template.

4) In addition to #3, I realized that the plone stylesheets are pulled in
very nebulously by buildout, and the only way to gain access to these
stylesheets is by referencing an old non-buildout installation of the site.
This is especially problematic for new themers who won't have the historical
knowledge of what stylesheets are available to them. I'd like to either a)
alter the paster theme recipe so that those themes are pulled into each and
every theme, or b) provide a resource to make those available to themers.

5) I'm not very satisfied with the current solution the paster template uses
to override public.css or base.css (nor do I like the fact that it overrides
these in the first place). It needs to be optional, and more cleanly
handled. I'd like to see better instructions on how to override plone css
files (ie, via the stylesheets.xml file). There's too much magic in it right
now and empty stylesheets feel like clutter.

6) I'd like any generated css files to support dtml out of the box.

7) I'd like there to be a theming champion for the long haul who can review
themes for correctness, much like we want editors for various sections of
the Documentation area. A theme submission process would be necessary, but I
don't want to see things get backlogged, so this could be optional.

8) I'd like to see sitemap styling pulled out into its own stylesheet.
Either that, or clean up the base plone.css so it's not so unattractive out
of the box.

9) Favicon addition would be something neat that could be added via the new
CSS Manager product, perhaps?

10) @@manage-viewlets window desperately needs to be enhanced so that for
complex themes, it's easy to see the pieces and parts you're dealing with.
With a complex theme, items often run over each other and it's hard to read
/ move items. On a super-wish-list, it would be nice to use this area to
actually create / manage viewlets, but that's a product amongst itself.

Many more ideas coming, I just had to get these out of my head. Thoughts on
these?

Thanks,

- Veda


------------------------
Veda Williams
Project Manager/Skinner
ONE/Northwest

New tools and strategies for engaging people in protecting the environment

veda@...
http://www.onenw.org
Skype ID: vedawms
Phone: 206.286-1235 x24
Fax: 206.260.2737

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shurik () Re: Lessons learned thus far from OOTB theming sprint
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hi, thank you for all the work!

i have a couple of comments bellow.

vedaw wrote:
I wanted to point out a few things that I've learned during the first wave
of the OOTB theming project, as I'm seeing some trends. In some cases, I may
be completely off base, but I'd love to throw these out for feedback.

1) We need a readme for all of our themes that give guidelines on the kinds
of things that should be included (how to install, contact information,
prerequisites, browsers it was tested against, licensing, etc.). There's
apparently one for WordPress that we could pretty easily Plone-ify with some
input. This would be included as part of the paster template.

2) We need an instruction set on plone.org that advocates best practices.
We're collecting this information now.

3) In inspecting a lot of the themes going past, I'm noticing that there are
css and theming-related files turning up in both a skins directory and the
browser directory. Personally, I don't see the value of having theming stuff
inside the browser directory, and we're ending up with a lot of empty, junky
stylesheets. It feels like mixing apples and oranges, and I'd like to see
the theming stuff wind up only in the skins folder. This would mean a change
to the paster template.
* +1, there're times when it may be necessary to register a css/js resource for a
browser page. but i don't see any reason not to use skins for everything in an ootb
theme. what if the paster template asked to disable/enable browser resources?

4) In addition to #3, I realized that the plone stylesheets are pulled in
very nebulously by buildout, and the only way to gain access to these
stylesheets is by referencing an old non-buildout installation of the site.
This is especially problematic for new themers who won't have the historical
knowledge of what stylesheets are available to them. I'd like to either a)
alter the paster theme recipe so that those themes are pulled into each and
every theme, or b) provide a resource to make those available to themers.

5) I'm not very satisfied with the current solution the paster template uses
to override public.css or base.css (nor do I like the fact that it overrides
these in the first place). It needs to be optional, and more cleanly
handled. I'd like to see better instructions on how to override plone css
files (ie, via the stylesheets.xml file). There's too much magic in it right
now and empty stylesheets feel like clutter.
* afaik, the paster template asks if the user wants to override or include plone
styles, i've chosen not to a number of times and came to regret it.
6) I'd like any generated css files to support dtml out of the box.

7) I'd like there to be a theming champion for the long haul who can review
themes for correctness, much like we want editors for various sections of
the Documentation area. A theme submission process would be necessary, but I
don't want to see things get backlogged, so this could be optional.

8) I'd like to see sitemap styling pulled out into its own stylesheet.
Either that, or clean up the base plone.css so it's not so unattractive out
of the box.

9) Favicon addition would be something neat that could be added via the new
CSS Manager product, perhaps?

10) @@manage-viewlets window desperately needs to be enhanced so that for
complex themes, it's easy to see the pieces and parts you're dealing with.
With a complex theme, items often run over each other and it's hard to read
/ move items. On a super-wish-list, it would be nice to use this area to
actually create / manage viewlets, but that's a product amongst itself.
+10 i've been playing with jquery/jqueryui and it is possible to build nice translucent
interfaces that happily float above content and can be used here...
Many more ideas coming, I just had to get these out of my head. Thoughts on
these?

Thanks,

- Veda


------------------------
Veda Williams
Project Manager/Skinner
ONE/Northwest

New tools and strategies for engaging people in protecting the environment

veda@onenw.org
http://www.onenw.org
Skype ID: vedawms
Phone: 206.286-1235 x24
Fax: 206.260.2737

Subscribe to ONEList, our email newsletter!
Practical advice for effective online engagement
http://www.onenw.org/full_signup



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peter Fraterdeus-2 () Re: Lessons learned thus far from OOTB theming sprint
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Is there a OOTB theme sig/bof?
I'm not able to get to the sprints these days, but would love to be able to contribute...

Ciao
PF

At 10:50 PM -0700 28 04 08, shurik wrote:

>hi, thank you for all the work!
>
>i have a couple of comments bellow.
>
>
>vedaw wrote:
>>
>> I wanted to point out a few things that I've learned during the first wave
>> of the OOTB theming project, as I'm seeing some trends. In some cases, I
>> may
> > be completely off base, but I'd love to throw these out for feedback.
...

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Wichert Akkerman () Re: Lessons learned thus far from OOTB theming sprint
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In reply to this post by vedaw
Previously Veda Williams wrote:
> 3) In inspecting a lot of the themes going past, I'm noticing that there are
> css and theming-related files turning up in both a skins directory and the
> browser directory. Personally, I don't see the value of having theming stuff
> inside the browser directory, and we're ending up with a lot of empty, junky
> stylesheets. It feels like mixing apples and oranges, and I'd like to see
> the theming stuff wind up only in the skins folder. This would mean a change
> to the paster template.

I feel that the decision in DIYPloneStye/theme ZopeSkel template to use
browser resouces was premature. Browser resources do not get the proper
caching handling that skins get, which is a performance problem.

Personally I find the URLs produced by browser resources quite ugly
as well, but that is not a technical argument.

> 4) In addition to #3, I realized that the plone stylesheets are pulled in
> very nebulously by buildout, and the only way to gain access to these
> stylesheets is by referencing an old non-buildout installation of the site.
> This is especially problematic for new themers who won't have the historical
> knowledge of what stylesheets are available to them. I'd like to either a)
> alter the paster theme recipe so that those themes are pulled into each and
> every theme, or b) provide a resource to make those available to themers.

I'm afraid I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

> 5) I'm not very satisfied with the current solution the paster template uses
> to override public.css or base.css (nor do I like the fact that it overrides
> these in the first place). It needs to be optional, and more cleanly
> handled. I'd like to see better instructions on how to override plone css
> files (ie, via the stylesheets.xml file). There's too much magic in it right
> now and empty stylesheets feel like clutter.

For a full skin you always want to override those completely. For
minimal themes of the add-some-colour-and-a-bit-of-bling style themes
you can use them.

Wichert.

--
Wichert Akkerman <wichert@...>    It is simple to make things.
http://www.wiggy.net/                   It is hard to make things simple.

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vedaw () Re: Lessons learned thus far from OOTB theming sprint
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Not sure what the implications are of your comment on using browser resources in these themes, but I'd be curious to know more. And yes, the URLs are horrific, indeed.

Ignore my #4, I completely missed seeing parts/plone/CMFPlone.

Re: #5, I think it should be optional whether you override styles or not. I personally keep all of the stylesheets turned on and build on top of them, even for our more elaborate themes. It's worked pretty well for us in terms of ensuring consistency across themes, although maybe it does encourage some bloat.

My point is more that if stylesheets are going to be overridden, do it in cssregistry.xml (sorry, I erroneously said stylesheets.xml) with true/false flags , rather than inserting blank stylesheets.


wichert wrote:
I feel that the decision in DIYPloneStye/theme ZopeSkel template to use
browser resouces was premature. Browser resources do not get the proper
caching handling that skins get, which is a performance problem.

Personally I find the URLs produced by browser resources quite ugly
as well, but that is not a technical argument.

> 4) ... I realized that the plone stylesheets are pulled in
> very nebulously by buildout, and the only way to gain access to these
> stylesheets is by referencing an old non-buildout installation of the site.

I'm afraid I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

> 5) I'm not very satisfied with the current solution the paster template uses
> to override public.css or base.css (nor do I like the fact that it overrides
> these in the first place).

For a full skin you always want to override those completely. For
minimal themes of the add-some-colour-and-a-bit-of-bling style themes
you can use them.

Wichert.
vedaw () Re: Lessons learned thus far from OOTB theming sprint
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In reply to this post by shurik
shurik wrote:
* +1, there're times when it may be necessary to register a css/js resource for a
browser page. but i don't see any reason not to use skins for everything in an ootb
theme. what if the paster template asked to disable/enable browser resources?
I do this by hand right now anyways, but it would be a lot easier / faster to do it by script method.


* afaik, the paster template asks if the user wants to override or include plone
styles, i've chosen not to a number of times and came to regret it.


My point is more that I want to be able to control this via the cssregistry.xml file (like we've always done in the css registry) rather than by adding empty files.
vedaw () Re: Lessons learned thus far from OOTB theming sprint
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In reply to this post by peter Fraterdeus-2
Hi Peter,

If people are interested, they can sign up here to participate:

http://www.openplans.org/projects/ootb-plone-themes/

It's a remote, ongoing sprint at the moment. We're getting ready to start a second round of theming, and I've started working on proposed UI modifications to plone.org to better support the themes. It's a good time to jump in. Sign up and stay tuned for the next round of instructions.

Cheers,

- Veda

peter Fraterdeus-2 wrote:
Is there a OOTB theme sig/bof?
I'm not able to get to the sprints these days, but would love to be able to contribute...

Ciao
PF
Eric Steele (esteele) () Re: Lessons learned thus far from OOTB theming sprint
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In reply to this post by vedaw

vedaw wrote:
...
10) @@manage-viewlets window desperately needs to be enhanced so that for
complex themes, it's easy to see the pieces and parts you're dealing with.
With a complex theme, items often run over each other and it's hard to read
/ move items. On a super-wish-list, it would be nice to use this area to
actually create / manage viewlets, but that's a product amongst itself.
...
I've actually been working on this. I started messing around with making all of the @@manage-viewlets actions work inline as a way to teach myself KSS and it's kinda taken on a life of its own. So far inline actions work, inline template editing is nearly done, and I'd like to take a look at adding new viewlets. I'll run it by our layout gurus here to see if we can't get it handling other skins well (NuPlone breaks it completely).