Lack of description

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Dolphinia

Lack of description

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Sorry it's just I write my heart out, edit my heart out, and finally get a letter back from an editor. However much we like your writing it is not as detailed as we would like, please feel free to submit future articles as we are interested in your ideas. What exactly does that mean? Darn editors are so hard to deal with sometimes. I rewrite adding whatever they ask and still they ask for more all the while telling me I'm a great writer.
I mean what does it mean when they think you are a great writer, I actually mean great because that is what they tell me, but they think I don't have enough detail, or dialogue, or whatever. I hate it no matter what I add they tell me it's not enough but they love the writing so please send more. Once I kid you not I saw my idea in a movie but hey who is to say it was my copy written  idea. Again sorry I just, I don't know I am at a loss. What am I supposed to do when they love my writing but could I please change this and that? I t never ends does it?
Cordilow

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Are you getting this from multiple companies or just one?

Although I've heard of such responses before, it's not the sort of response I've heard about most.

From my understanding, if editors like the book, *they* will often (not always, as in your case) be the ones to change things like that that they don't like, rather than the authors. How long was the content you submitted? If it wasn't very long I would be suspicious. If it would be entirely difficult to add that stuff in that they mentioned, it's more excusable.

It sounds like they could just be trying to glean ideas from you, without giving you compensation because they might not have liked everything about the way it was written. If it's just the one company, I recommend trying others. If you get the same from multiple others, too, then—hmm.

Have you taken their advice, and they still complained similarly? Are you /sure/ you've taken their advice? They might have meant another aspect of the meaning you received from them.

Actually, I'm personally deviating away from wanting to publish through a standard publishing company (or any, for that matter), or even submit stuff to them. It /can/ be a good route and all, but I find an increasing need to keep certain rights for myself that I know they would want to horde and stow away in a closet somewhere, unused. I wouldn't doubt if there were conspiracies going on, but I'm not about to say it's true, either. Whatever the case, it's entirely possible. They could easily control many aspects about the markets how they wanted, if they wanted (and to a certain degree, I'm sure they do this, by having certain authors write certain tales: but, where do they get the ideas for them? Perhaps from rejected authors with different writing styles. It sounds to me like this is your fear. It's possible, whether or not it's purposeful. And, of course, it's legal, seeing as you can't copyright an idea. They should at least have people sign a waver before submission.) /But/, it's not necessarily true, either—possible, but the truth is unverified, and I wouldn't waste time worrying about it.

Anyway, the whole route is insecure, even if it is the current prestigious way to get published—and out of the current ways, it's probably the one to go by unless you're willing to hold out a while longer before getting published and wait or create other successful methods (or risk a chancy one). [Don't worry, if no one else paves a way, I certainly know ways I hope to implement some day, although my methods shouldn't disrupt the traditional companies in their current way of things, seeing as they don't rely on the same economic dimension and paradigm.] You basically have to go on faith that no one will steal your ideas. Plus, even if you get published, you can sign away tons of power over your work such that you no longer have the freedom to do as you please with it (as far as such as movies, games, redistribution, audiobooks, other forms of media, etc. go)—but the publisher has the power and you have to convince or persuade them to do with your work what you want (and as often as not, it may be against company policy, anyway, or may require authorization from an untouchable source). Of course, there are lots of nice traditional publishers out there that are willing to work with authors more than that, I hope, but I wouldn't bet on it without confirmation.

Also, you have to consider that even if someone steals your ideas, you still have them yourself and you can do whatever you want with them. All they've 'stolen' is people's opinions of where the ideas came from first (if anyone is bothering to pay attention).

However, I should also note that coincidence occurs quite often—even with remarkably 'unique' ideas. There often seems to be no logical explanation. I know I've had some wild ideas, told no one, and yet I've seen them surface here and there within a couple years of the ideas' formations. Actually, as often as not, the idea was already in use a short time before I came up with it (and I certainly had never heard the idea before).

This isn't a prime example of what I'm talking about (since the idea here is simple), but, I remember back in 1999, Harry Potter was already out, I think. I saw some art for it, but that's about all I knew—and no one ever mentioned any plot details to me. I had no idea what it was about (I figured just a magical adventure story involving witches). However, I wrote a book involving a sort of school in which magic was taught. However, the mood, character, setting and background of the book was entirely different to that of the Harry Potter series—nevertheless, if I published it now, I'm sure people would construe it as a Harry Potter derivative (no matter how different it really is), and I'm sure that would grate on my nerves, seeing as the idea was new to me (although I didn't consider it 'my' idea, per se, seeing as it was such a natural and general sort of thing that I think any child in its right mind could come up with). I'll probably include the school in the rewrite—but it's not strictly necessary (however much it might seem so if you read it as is). In fact, the entire book is not strictly necessary. It could be entirely different as long as it contained a few constant parameters—but I'd rather not lose everything I wrote there, unless I publish the drafts, too.

Notwithstanding all I said above, this forum is currently targeted mainly at writing for such standard companies (though we talk about other stuff, for sure). You just said some stuff that got me started.

So, I might recommend figuring out if there is some stock in what they've been telling you. Do you really need more/less of this and that? Pull out some samples and have people critique it (samples that you're not worried about people seeing, but that will still give you an idea). You can try the critique forums here, or, I might recommend critters.org (you'd get a load of responses there—although you'd have to work at critiquing other people's stuff—but doing that should help you with your own writing style, too, and it's good mental exercise of a sort). Don't make your conclusion right away. People with more experience can see things that people with less experience don't know how to see (and this is not always, if ever, apparent to the less experienced party). Become more experienced yourself before making a true judgment.

Read a lot of books and watch the writing styles. See if you can imitate some of them.
Dolphinia

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Thank you for the response it has given me some things to think on. To answer your question I got it from two separate editors, but they aren't the only ones I've submitted work to who wrote back to me. I sent my fantasy novel to a non-fiction publisher on accident, long story ending with I clicked the wrong file on my computer. They sent me back a response, which was really nice of them, saying they liked the story but it was not in their area of expertise. Oops! When I sent them the proper story, which was only 5,000 words so a short story they did buy it for $0.10 a word. I know not great but rent was due and my name is not widely known.
Here I am running on about little nothings, I just didn't want you to think I had no experience dealing with publishers it's just irritating I can't get them to accept my ideas that I have envisioned and work a few years on but silly things like tech. manuals sell.

My book, the first of three two of which are completed, is 200 pages long. I have a friend who is in college studying to be an editor actually she read the first one before I sent it to anyone and she told me to work on a few things like dialogue so I did. When she reread it she told me it was better and that she thought I should start submitting it. The two editors I mentioned are the first to respond out of the ten I sent it too.  Hopefully some others will like it and buy it, if they all think it lacks something I will then try rewriting once again, but to be honest as much as I love my little created world I am ready to complete the third novel and take a break from it to visit other places in my mind.

I did try to take their advice, they said it needed more description in some of the more climatic parts so I rewrote those, then sent the whole thing back. Only one of them has responded telling me it's still not quite what they were looking for, the other has yet to get back to me.

Cordilow wrote:
So, I might recommend figuring out if there is some stock in what they've been telling you. Do you really need more/less of this and that? Pull out some samples and have people critique it (samples that you're not worried about people seeing, but that will still give you an idea).
This was a good idea too, not only have I pulled out the original pages that led to this whole adventure but found some other ideas I had jotted down in the margins then forgotten about.

Anyway I should stop rambling on and get to the end of this, thank you for the advice and even the rant for I too have been becoming disenchanted with the whole idea of publishing companies. Perhaps when my name is better known I will try self-publishing or e-publishing as an alternative.

Just for the record I promise you I read more books in a month than most people do in a year, I study the styles, pros, and great literature of all my favorite authors. Rice, Shakespeare, King, Poe, Bryce, Jane Austin, etc. it goes on for quiet a while I won't bore you with it.
 Thanks D.
Cordilow

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How many drafts have you written of the book(s) at hand?

Rewriting is common practice. Sometimes people just edit a story, but I honestly think rewriting it altogether (even if it's the exact same plot, scene and such) can help (it's usually easier the second time, I think—although writing the final draft can be tricky).

I mean, let's say someone writes a novel (first draft). The person edits it and goes on to write other things. The person learns a lot of stuff in the mean time. The person reads over the draft again, finds some things that need to be changed, and changes them. However, the person's feelings about the things originally written may blind the person to recognizing that they're problematic. Plus, it's easy to miss things. I've found that at this point, it's often wise to rewrite the first story rather than going back to edit it, for a few reasons:

It's difficult to see all the rough spots in a first draft, even if we know better. The rewriting is so that we don't have to worry about finding all those spots. Basically, you're reconstructing it all with the new things you've learned in mind the entire time (instead of just the spots you edit). It's easier to avoid the same problems the second time (although there might be new problems, easier to spot). Plus you can learn things subconsciously that may help in a rewrite whereas you might not know to apply those principles in normal editing (or they may pertain to the framework of your style, thus making it extremely difficult to apply them in anything but a rewrite).

Now, I'm not saying that this advice applies to your situation (since I honestly don't know), but it's good to have on mind, at least.

If you're wanting to go on to other things, I might recommend doing it, and returning to this some other time (if you need to).

Something that is good to practice rewriting on is prologues (such as the ones you submitted over there)—they're short, usually, so it doesn't take a huge time commitment. Although, as I already noted, the style is different from other writing. However, you still learn important principles of rewriting in the process. I know I've rewritten certain prologues tons of times, and plan to do it again, and perhaps again. I've learned new things every time, and learned new presentation methods. It really is good practice, I think, to rewrite things—maybe even better practice than editing.

Anyway, I hope this helps.
Dolphinia

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Thanks I'm gonna give it a shot, just rewriting the whole things. I did have to go back during the outlining of the second book to change a few minor things to make it all fit together, so I'll probably end up rewriting all three of them when I am done with the first draft of the third book. I thought it would go easier writing them independently of one another but the more I reread and look over it all the more I realize I must at least have the entire outline of all three books finished before trying to get any of them published just to make sure the story all fits together.
All these things you say are good ideas, thank you for the help. D.
Cordilow

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Ah, thanks.

Yeah, outlines can be interesting. I should probably work on getting a good one set up for my series. I've just written a synopsis of each book, drafts for a couple of the middle books, and random documents and starts here and there.

My issue is this:
I wanted to write the fourth book first (intending it to be the first). However, I was having trouble, so I wrote something else that ended up being the second book. Then I wrote the third, and started the fourth. I later realized that I needed to flesh out the first book so that everything could fit together nicely and follow the pattern I wanted. The problem is, the first book is more like a history than something with a plot and individual characters, and making the transition has been difficult. Also, another issue is that the first book covers so much time that a regular plot might not make sense, without . . . Hmm, I better not reveal too much here. So, yeah, an outline. It can be difficult. I think for me I just need to make the right characters and somehow put a few plots into the history.

Anyway, I was just trying to relate.
Dolphinia

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Cordilow wrote:
The problem is, the first book is more like a history than something with a plot and individual characters, and making the transition has been difficult
Have you thought about taking this first book tearing it apart and interspersing it throughout the other books as part of the story? Something else you might consider, perhaps this first book is just part of the back story. It may well be a story in its own right but do you absolutely need it to tell this part of your story. Just a thought hope it helps. D.
Cordilow

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Dolphinia wrote:
Have you thought about taking this first book tearing it apart and interspersing it throughout the other books as part of the story? Something else you might consider, perhaps this first book is just part of the back story. It may well be a story in its own right but do you absolutely need it to tell this part of your story. Just a thought hope it helps. D.
I need it, but the readers don't, particularly.

The story has two kinds of plots—inner plots, and an outer plot. You don't need to know much, if anything, about the outer plot if you're just reading one book. Each book has an inner plot, and that should be what superficial readers will care about. The deeper readers will care about the outer plot. Also, if you're reading it as a series, the outer plot may be more important for you. The 'first' book, although it was originally meant to be back-story, is essential to the outer plot. Plus, I just really want to write it. It won't feel complete to me, otherwise, and I see it as a challenge that I want to meet head on.
Cordilow

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Also, the first book will explain how and why everything came to be. Referencing it as history won't do that without holes, although it's difficult to explain why, except that the holes might not be filled in until I write the first book. I just want an official reference, and not some ambiguous, yet mystical history.
Dolphinia

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I do understand that, Tolkien did a lot of that at first but in later days the lack of a real history bothered not only him but his son. Between the two of them they did fill in the history before The Hobbit was written.
Also as a fellow writer I can understand wanting your story to be just the way you want it to be. It would bother me greatly if people took my novels apart leaving out what I thought was important to the overall story. Night, D.
Cordilow

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It's good to hear about Tolkien. I used to be all into his stuff. It was pretty much the first fantasy I had heard about and read from (in fact, I didn't really know of much other fantasy at the time, and when I finally did find out about other fantasy novels, I was taken with them enough that I didn't get back to finished The Return of the King until a few years ago—but I did pick up where I left off, and it still made sense, somehow).

Yeah, part of the reason I want to write a/some book(s) for the 'history' is so it can be fully planned out such that I can write the books based on the history, rather than the history based on the books (although I started it with history based on books, partly).

The funny thing is, that even when I went back and started with the intention of writing the history into a novel, I found that even more history existed—so much history that it went back to the creation of another world altogether, and that world has it's own history. Fortunately, the other world is abstract from my story enough that I don't feel a huge need to write it all out beforehand (just a bit of it).