Elecraft › [KX1]

KX1 headphones

27 messages

1 2

K7TV

KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

Every time I go out with the KX1, I get annoyed with how my Optimus earbuds hurt my ears and one falls out repeatedly. I know that Koss earbuds have been recommended on the list before, but I assume they too are too large for my ears. The Optimus ones are 0.65" or 16.4 mm in diameter. I do have a pair of Sony MDR-W14 that came with an armband gym type radio. They are connected with an adjustable springy strap over the top of the head (I have seen them worn in other ways too). They are comfortable although the parts at the ears are the same size as the earbuds. They just don't need to be retained by the ears; the flexible strap keeps them from falling off. The problem is that these are less sensitive than the earbuds, and the KX1 doesn't have gain to spare. My question is: Is there a headset that is physically similar to the very light Sony headset but with better sensitivity? Or, is there a brand of sensitive earbuds with a smaller diameter or a soft body? I don't want an out
board amp.

73,
Erik K7TV
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

Erik,

You might want to look into one of the amplified headsets or earbuds.
The amplifier is usually in a plastic 'bump' on the cord, but it may do
the job for you.

73,
Don W3FPR

Erik N Basilier wrote:
> My question is: Is there a headset that is physically similar to the very light Sony headset but with better sensitivity? Or, is there a brand of sensitive earbuds with a smaller diameter or a soft body? I don't want an out
> board amp.
>
> 73,
> Erik K7TV
>
>
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Brian Murrey-3

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by K7TV

I use Klipsch Image X10 headphones with my KX-1....they are absolutely
the best headphones I have ever used.

http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/image-overview/

They are not cheap, but you can find them for less than retail at most
higher end audio stores.

On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 5:06 PM, Erik N Basilier<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Every time I go out with the KX1, I get annoyed with how my Optimus earbuds hurt my ears and one falls out repeatedly. I know that Koss earbuds have been recommended on the list before, but I assume they too are too large for my ears. The Optimus ones are 0.65" or 16.4 mm in diameter. I do have a pair of Sony MDR-W14 that came with an armband gym type radio. They are connected with an adjustable springy strap over the top of the head (I have seen them worn in other ways too). They are comfortable although the parts at the ears are the same size as the earbuds. They just don't need to be retained by the ears; the flexible strap keeps them from falling off. The problem is that these are less sensitive than the earbuds, and the KX1 doesn't have gain to spare. My question is: Is there a headset that is physically similar to the very light Sony headset but with better sensitivity? Or, is there a brand of sensitive earbuds with a smaller diameter or a soft body? I don't want an out
> board amp.
>
> 73,
> Erik K7TV
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Rick Dettinger-3

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

On Aug 20, 2009, at 5:48 AM, Brian Murrey wrote:

> I use Klipsch Image X10 headphones with my KX-1....they are absolutely
> the best headphones I have ever used.
>
> http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/image-overview/
>
> They are not cheap, but you can find them for less than retail at most
> higher end audio stores.

Not only not cheap, they cost more than the KX-1!!

73,

Rick Dettinger K7MW
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Brian Murrey-3

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

Yup. Makes me glad mine were a gift...but BOY do they sound great.

On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Rick Dettinger<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Aug 20, 2009, at 5:48 AM, Brian Murrey wrote:
>
>> I use Klipsch Image X10 headphones with my KX-1....they are absolutely
>> the best headphones I have ever used.
>>
>> http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/image-overview/
>>
>> They are not cheap, but you can find them for less than retail at most
>> higher end audio stores.
>
> Not only not cheap, they cost more than the KX-1!!
>
> 73,
>
> Rick Dettinger K7MW
>

David Woolley (E.L)

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by K7TV

Erik N Basilier wrote:
> Every time I go out with the KX1, I get annoyed with how my Optimus
+ earbuds hurt my ears and one falls out repeatedly. I know that Koss

I have a problem with Walkman type buds falling out, but that is the
shape of my earlobes, which don't have grooves in the right place to
grip them.

+ earbuds have been recommended on the list before, but I assume they too
+ are too large for my ears. The Optimus ones are 0.65" or 16.4 mm in

16mm buds are Walkman style and therefore no longer fashionable. The
current fashion is i-Pod, which do fit in the ear canal and generally
have soft foam. I think most of the recommendations you have had are
for i-Pod "in the ear" style.

However, the ultimate is to have custom earmoulds made. These are
typically used with expensive ear-buds, but it is possible to have them
made with cheap Walkman drivers and, in the UK at least, one can even
get adaptors to use generic 16mm drivers, rather than having them cast
into the mould.

A hearing aid centre may be able to do the whole job, as prime
contractor, otherwise you go to a hearing aid centre to have castings
made of your ears, then send them off to a specialist in custom ear
mould headphones. (The hearing aid centre will normally also send off
the casting to have the final moulds made.)

(I have had poor hearing since childhood and had moulds made for both
ears then. I was changed to one aid, on my worst ear, but stopped
wearing that quite soon. I've recently realised that was a mistake and
now have a modern aid for that ear, with a different style of mould, but
the old moulds fit well enough to retain themselves, and I tried using
an inductive coupler for the aid ear, and a generic earbud adapter for
the other ear.

The custom ear moulds used by hi-fi enthusiasts will be recent castings,
and therefore produce a sound tight seal.)

--
David Woolley
"we do not overly restrict the subject matter on the list, and we
encourage postings on a wide range of amateur radio related topics"
List Guidelines <http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm>
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Brett Howard

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

Yes I was referring to something very similar to this... If you end up ever
owning a pair of Etymotic ER-4's then you can get Westone to make you a set
of these to give you a custom fit:

http://www.westone.com/content/194.html

Also note that if you to go style No. 7 you can get a custom fit for the
standard ear buds. You simply slide the mold over the bud and then the rest
of it is the custom fit mold for your canal.

~Brett (KC7OTG)

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Woolley (E.L)
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 3:15 PM
To: Erik N Basilier
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX1 headphones

Erik N Basilier wrote:
> Every time I go out with the KX1, I get annoyed with how my Optimus
+ earbuds hurt my ears and one falls out repeatedly. I know that Koss

I have a problem with Walkman type buds falling out, but that is the
shape of my earlobes, which don't have grooves in the right place to
grip them.

+ earbuds have been recommended on the list before, but I assume they too
+ are too large for my ears. The Optimus ones are 0.65" or 16.4 mm in

16mm buds are Walkman style and therefore no longer fashionable. The
current fashion is i-Pod, which do fit in the ear canal and generally
have soft foam. I think most of the recommendations you have had are
for i-Pod "in the ear" style.

However, the ultimate is to have custom earmoulds made. These are
typically used with expensive ear-buds, but it is possible to have them
made with cheap Walkman drivers and, in the UK at least, one can even
get adaptors to use generic 16mm drivers, rather than having them cast
into the mould.

A hearing aid centre may be able to do the whole job, as prime
contractor, otherwise you go to a hearing aid centre to have castings
made of your ears, then send them off to a specialist in custom ear
mould headphones. (The hearing aid centre will normally also send off
the casting to have the final moulds made.)

(I have had poor hearing since childhood and had moulds made for both
ears then. I was changed to one aid, on my worst ear, but stopped
wearing that quite soon. I've recently realised that was a mistake and
now have a modern aid for that ear, with a different style of mould, but
the old moulds fit well enough to retain themselves, and I tried using
an inductive coupler for the aid ear, and a generic earbud adapter for
the other ear.

The custom ear moulds used by hi-fi enthusiasts will be recent castings,
and therefore produce a sound tight seal.)

--
David Woolley
"we do not overly restrict the subject matter on the list, and we
encourage postings on a wide range of amateur radio related topics"
List Guidelines <http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm>
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

K7TV

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by David Woolley (E.L)

Thanks all for the suggestions!
Not having fallen yet for the fashionable pocket music players, I wasn't
aware of how much money young people can spend on earbuds, nor that the
in-ear style is back into fashion. OK, I have an expensive headset for phone
operation, and I appreciate expensive units for music, but I can't see
paying a lot for frequency response when the radio is cw only. When I looked
up all the earbuds etc available from RS, the selection is quite staggering,
but the "spec's" don't say anything about sensitivity; the fine audio brands
mostly don't specify sensitivity either. I think my next step will be to
visit the nearby RS where the mgr recognizes me, and then try as many models
as he will let me...

73,
Erik K7TV

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Woolley (E.L)" <[hidden email]>
To: "Erik N Basilier" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX1 headphones

> 16mm buds are Walkman style and therefore no longer fashionable. The
> current fashion is i-Pod, which do fit in the ear canal and generally have
> soft foam. I think most of the recommendations you have had are for i-Pod
> "in the ear" style.
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Brett Howard

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

If sensitivity isn't specified often impedance is and the lower the
impedances usually result in higher efficiencies.

~Brett (KC7OTG)

On Thu, 2009-08-20 at 22:27 -0700, Erik N Basilier wrote:

> Thanks all for the suggestions!
> Not having fallen yet for the fashionable pocket music players, I wasn't
> aware of how much money young people can spend on earbuds, nor that the
> in-ear style is back into fashion. OK, I have an expensive headset for phone
> operation, and I appreciate expensive units for music, but I can't see
> paying a lot for frequency response when the radio is cw only. When I looked
> up all the earbuds etc available from RS, the selection is quite staggering,
> but the "spec's" don't say anything about sensitivity; the fine audio brands
> mostly don't specify sensitivity either. I think my next step will be to
> visit the nearby RS where the mgr recognizes me, and then try as many models
> as he will let me...
>
> 73,
> Erik K7TV
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Woolley (E.L)" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Erik N Basilier" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 3:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX1 headphones
>
>
> > 16mm buds are Walkman style and therefore no longer fashionable. The
> > current fashion is i-Pod, which do fit in the ear canal and generally have
> > soft foam. I think most of the recommendations you have had are for i-Pod
> > "in the ear" style.
> >
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

K7TV

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

Brett, I think you are referring to the fact that many audio amplifiers have
an output impedance which is much lower than the load they are designed for,
with the result that a lower impedance load receives more power. This is not
the same as sensitivity, which is measured in sound pressure dB per
milliwatt. That said, more power helps create more sound pressure, so in
practice you should be right in many cases. One person sent me a pm
recommending Creative (thanks!). They do list sensitivity on their web site:

http://us.creative.com/products/welcomenew.asp?category=437&#subcat861

The Aurvana in-ear at $99 has one of the higher sensitivities I have seen at
115 dB. The impedance of 42 ohms is rather high, illustrating that high
sensitivity can come with high impedance, but o.t.o.h. the high impedance
might counteract the sensitivity so that it is not very loud with a KX1.
Hmmm... the LM386N in the KX1 is spec'd for an 8 ohm load. The actual output
impedance is not specified, but I would guess that it is much lower, which
means that the amplifier is a voltage source. Then with a load of 42 ohms
instead of 8 ohms, the electrical output power is reduced by about 7 dB. If
I instead look at the EP-220, which looks similar to my existing Optimus
earbuds, it is specified at 110 dB sensitivity and 16 ohms.
The impedance of 16 instead of 8 means a loss of electrical output power of
3 dB. 115-7 = 108 dB for the Aurvana, and 110-3 = 107 dB for the EP-220.
Thus, *IF* the EP-220 were identical to my Optimus, then I would gain 1 dB
by getting the Aurvana. However, I can't see paying the $99 for the Aurvana
unless I could try it for comfort first.

73,
Erik K7TV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brett Howard" <[hidden email]>
To: "Erik N Basilier" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "David Woolley (E.L)" <[hidden email]>;
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX1 headphones

> If sensitivity isn't specified often impedance is and the lower the
> impedances usually result in higher efficiencies.
>
> ~Brett (KC7OTG)
>
> On Thu, 2009-08-20 at 22:27 -0700, Erik N Basilier wrote:
>> Thanks all for the suggestions!
>> Not having fallen yet for the fashionable pocket music players, I wasn't
>> aware of how much money young people can spend on earbuds, nor that the
>> in-ear style is back into fashion. OK, I have an expensive headset for
>> phone
>> operation, and I appreciate expensive units for music, but I can't see
>> paying a lot for frequency response when the radio is cw only. When I
>> looked
>> up all the earbuds etc available from RS, the selection is quite
>> staggering,
>> but the "spec's" don't say anything about sensitivity; the fine audio
>> brands
>> mostly don't specify sensitivity either. I think my next step will be to
>> visit the nearby RS where the mgr recognizes me, and then try as many
>> models
>> as he will let me...
>>
>> 73,
>> Erik K7TV
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Woolley (E.L)" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Erik N Basilier" <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 3:15 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX1 headphones
>>
>>
>> > 16mm buds are Walkman style and therefore no longer fashionable. The
>> > current fashion is i-Pod, which do fit in the ear canal and generally
>> > have
>> > soft foam. I think most of the recommendations you have had are for
>> > i-Pod
>> > "in the ear" style.
>> >
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

K7TV

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Don,

Do you have any particular brands/types in mind? If the bump in the cable is
small, it would indeed be worth looking into. I do assume that these units
would be battery-powered, so that one might be stuck with an exhausted
battery though. BTW, just to clarify, I don't suffer from hearing loss.

73,
Erik K7TV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]>
To: "Erik N Basilier" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 5:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX1 headphones

> Erik,
>
> You might want to look into one of the amplified headsets or earbuds. The
> amplifier is usually in a plastic 'bump' on the cord, but it may do the
> job for you.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> Erik N Basilier wrote:
>> My question is: Is there a headset that is physically similar to the
>> very light Sony headset but with better sensitivity? Or, is there a brand
>> of sensitive earbuds with a smaller diameter or a soft body? I don't want
>> an out
>> board amp.
>> 73,
>> Erik K7TV
>>
>

Brett Howard

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by K7TV

Exactly... You get the idea... The statement I was making was more of a
rule of thumb than a law and it depends on whats driving it. Thankfully
my short hand reply was not lost on you and from your comments you seem
fully aware of the balances you must consider.

~Brett

On Thu, 2009-08-20 at 23:14 -0700, Erik N Basilier wrote:

> Brett, I think you are referring to the fact that many audio amplifiers have
> an output impedance which is much lower than the load they are designed for,
> with the result that a lower impedance load receives more power. This is not
> the same as sensitivity, which is measured in sound pressure dB per
> milliwatt. That said, more power helps create more sound pressure, so in
> practice you should be right in many cases. One person sent me a pm
> recommending Creative (thanks!). They do list sensitivity on their web site:
>
> http://us.creative.com/products/welcomenew.asp?category=437&#subcat861
>
> The Aurvana in-ear at $99 has one of the higher sensitivities I have seen at
> 115 dB. The impedance of 42 ohms is rather high, illustrating that high
> sensitivity can come with high impedance, but o.t.o.h. the high impedance
> might counteract the sensitivity so that it is not very loud with a KX1.
> Hmmm... the LM386N in the KX1 is spec'd for an 8 ohm load. The actual output
> impedance is not specified, but I would guess that it is much lower, which
> means that the amplifier is a voltage source. Then with a load of 42 ohms
> instead of 8 ohms, the electrical output power is reduced by about 7 dB. If
> I instead look at the EP-220, which looks similar to my existing Optimus
> earbuds, it is specified at 110 dB sensitivity and 16 ohms.
> The impedance of 16 instead of 8 means a loss of electrical output power of
> 3 dB. 115-7 = 108 dB for the Aurvana, and 110-3 = 107 dB for the EP-220.
> Thus, *IF* the EP-220 were identical to my Optimus, then I would gain 1 dB
> by getting the Aurvana. However, I can't see paying the $99 for the Aurvana
> unless I could try it for comfort first.
>
> 73,
> Erik K7TV
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brett Howard" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Erik N Basilier" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "David Woolley (E.L)" <[hidden email]>;
> <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 10:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX1 headphones
>
>
> > If sensitivity isn't specified often impedance is and the lower the
> > impedances usually result in higher efficiencies.
> >
> > ~Brett (KC7OTG)
> >
> > On Thu, 2009-08-20 at 22:27 -0700, Erik N Basilier wrote:
> >> Thanks all for the suggestions!
> >> Not having fallen yet for the fashionable pocket music players, I wasn't
> >> aware of how much money young people can spend on earbuds, nor that the
> >> in-ear style is back into fashion. OK, I have an expensive headset for
> >> phone
> >> operation, and I appreciate expensive units for music, but I can't see
> >> paying a lot for frequency response when the radio is cw only. When I
> >> looked
> >> up all the earbuds etc available from RS, the selection is quite
> >> staggering,
> >> but the "spec's" don't say anything about sensitivity; the fine audio
> >> brands
> >> mostly don't specify sensitivity either. I think my next step will be to
> >> visit the nearby RS where the mgr recognizes me, and then try as many
> >> models
> >> as he will let me...
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Erik K7TV
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "David Woolley (E.L)" <[hidden email]>
> >> To: "Erik N Basilier" <[hidden email]>
> >> Cc: <[hidden email]>
> >> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 3:15 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX1 headphones
> >>
> >>
> >> > 16mm buds are Walkman style and therefore no longer fashionable. The
> >> > current fashion is i-Pod, which do fit in the ear canal and generally
> >> > have
> >> > soft foam. I think most of the recommendations you have had are for
> >> > i-Pod
> >> > "in the ear" style.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> >
>
>

Anthony Hardwick

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by K7TV

I would not have spent the money on my Etymotics just for listening to
CW, but since they are great for listening to music with great
fidelity while traveling on planes, which is something I do a lot of,
I look at it as a bonus that they will be nice to use in conjunction
with my KX-1 once I build it. Time to heat up the soldering iron!

73,
Anthony W6GC

On Thu, 2009-08-20 at 22:27 -0700, Erik N Basilier wrote:

> Thanks all for the suggestions!
> Not having fallen yet for the fashionable pocket music players, I
> wasn't
> aware of how much money young people can spend on earbuds, nor that
> the
> in-ear style is back into fashion. OK, I have an expensive headset
> for phone
> operation, and I appreciate expensive units for music, but I can't see
> paying a lot for frequency response when the radio is cw only. When
> I looked
> up all the earbuds etc available from RS, the selection is quite
> staggering,
> but the "spec's" don't say anything about sensitivity; the fine
> audio brands
> mostly don't specify sensitivity either. I think my next step will
> be to
> visit the nearby RS where the mgr recognizes me, and then try as
> many models
> as he will let me...
>
> 73,
> Erik K7TV

_________________
Anthony Hardwick
[hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Mike Morrow-3

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by K7TV

>I would not have spent the money on my Etymotics just for listening to
>CW, but since they are great for listening to music with great fidelity
>while traveling on planes, which is something I do a lot of, I look at it
>as a bonus that they will be nice to use in conjunction with my KX-1
>once I build it.

The absolute worst thing one can have in a speaker or headphones for
communications use is "high fidelity" and broad frequency response!!!

Communications-quality audio devices are deliberately *designed* for limited
frequency response (typically about 300 to 3000 Hz). Anything of higher
"fidelity" is adverse to quality in a communications device.

One might as well eliminate receiver IF and front-end filtering if high
fidelity is the goal. But, of course, high fidelity is not the goal. Just as
receiver IFs with limited bandpass are desirable, especially for CW
communications, so are headphones with narrow frequency response.
Narrow frequency response helps eliminate undesired signals as surely
as that IF filter. And since the front-end and IF filtering in the KX-1 is
limited, hi-fi entertainment headsets are the last thing one needs.

QRP rig designers usually provide a headphone jack that accepts the common
entertainment-quality headphones with stereo connections. That seems to
encourage the use of these unsatisfactory entertainment audio devices,
whether they be $5 Walmart specials or much worse, those wildly overpriced
"specialty" hi-fi headsets.

The best earbuds for communications use that I've ever found are Kenwood
HS-7 mono earbuds, with the essential limited frequency response.
Unfortunately they haven't been available for more than a decade.

If you have headsets that are spec'd for entertainment audio purposes, that
should immediately be a warning that they are far from optimal for communications
use unless nothing else is available.

Mike / KK5F
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Brett Howard

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

The filtering should be done before the audio gets to the headphones.
A low end pair of headphones only acts to cover up flaws in receiver
design. A good broadband pair of uncolored headphones should be good
for reproducing audio as it was intended to be done so. While some
audio reproduction systems are designed to be colored they are by
nature much less versatile and have narrower usage cases.

~BTH

On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Mike Morrow<[hidden email]> wrote:

>>I would not have spent the money on my Etymotics just for listening to
>>CW, but since they are great for listening to music with great fidelity
>>while traveling on planes, which is something I do a lot of, I look at it
>>as a bonus that they will be nice to use in conjunction with my KX-1
>>once I build it.
>
> The absolute worst thing one can have in a speaker or headphones for
> communications use is "high fidelity" and broad frequency response!!!
>
> Communications-quality audio devices are deliberately *designed* for limited
> frequency response (typically about 300 to 3000 Hz). Anything of higher
> "fidelity" is adverse to quality in a communications device.
>
> One might as well eliminate receiver IF and front-end filtering if high
> fidelity is the goal. But, of course, high fidelity is not the goal. Just as
> receiver IFs with limited bandpass are desirable, especially for CW
> communications, so are headphones with narrow frequency response.
> Narrow frequency response helps eliminate undesired signals as surely
> as that IF filter. And since the front-end and IF filtering in the KX-1 is
> limited, hi-fi entertainment headsets are the last thing one needs.
>
> QRP rig designers usually provide a headphone jack that accepts the common
> entertainment-quality headphones with stereo connections. That seems to
> encourage the use of these unsatisfactory entertainment audio devices,
> whether they be $5 Walmart specials or much worse, those wildly overpriced
> "specialty" hi-fi headsets.
>
> The best earbuds for communications use that I've ever found are Kenwood
> HS-7 mono earbuds, with the essential limited frequency response.
> Unfortunately they haven't been available for more than a decade.
>
> If you have headsets that are spec'd for entertainment audio purposes, that
> should immediately be a warning that they are far from optimal for communications
> use unless nothing else is available.
>
> Mike / KK5F
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Wes Stewart

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by K7TV

I concur 100% with Brett (for a change). Filtering should be done electronically where it can be controlled, not mechanically where all it does is add distortion.

It was a revelation when I was first working EME in the early eighties and was still using some military "communications" headphones and I changed over to some Koss "hi-fi" phones and an in-line 200 Hz wide LC filter. There were signals buried in that mush that was all I was hearing with the "communications" phones.

Later I bought into the brand "H" hype and got a headset at my local ham emporium. After about five minutes of listening, I took them back. They were simply awful! I don't think much of the microphones either, even though they are wildly popular.

It's hard to beat a nice passive LC brute force filter. They can clean up a multitude of sins that we are presented with by the afterthought audio stages in modern transceivers.

Wes N7WS

--- On Sat, 8/22/09, Brett Howard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Brett Howard <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX1 headphones
> To:
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Date: Saturday, August 22, 2009, 7:05 PM
> The filtering should be done before
> the audio gets to the headphones.
> A low end pair of headphones only acts to cover up flaws in
> receiver
> design. A good broadband pair of uncolored headphones
> should be good
> for reproducing audio as it was intended to be done
> so. While some
> audio reproduction systems are designed to be colored they
> are by
> nature much less versatile and have narrower usage cases.
>
> ~BTH
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Mike Morrow<[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>I would not have spent the money on my Etymotics
> just for listening to
> >>CW, but since they are great for listening to music
> with great fidelity
> >>while traveling on planes, which is something I do
> a lot of, I look at it
> >>as a bonus that they will be nice to use in
> conjunction with my KX-1
> >>once I build it.
> >
> > The absolute worst thing one can have in a speaker or
> headphones for
> > communications use is "high fidelity" and broad
> frequency response!!!
> >
> > Communications-quality audio devices are deliberately
> *designed* for limited
> > frequency response (typically about 300 to 3000 Hz).
> Anything of higher
> > "fidelity" is adverse to quality in a communications
> device.
> >
> > One might as well eliminate receiver IF and front-end
> filtering if high
> > fidelity is the goal. But, of course, high fidelity
> is not the goal. Just as
> > receiver IFs with limited bandpass are desirable,
> especially for CW
> > communications, so are headphones with narrow
> frequency response.
> > Narrow frequency response helps eliminate undesired
> signals as surely
> > as that IF filter. And since the front-end and IF
> filtering in the KX-1 is
> > limited, hi-fi entertainment headsets are the last
> thing one needs.
> >
> > QRP rig designers usually provide a headphone jack
> that accepts the common
> > entertainment-quality headphones with stereo
> connections. That seems to
> > encourage the use of these unsatisfactory
> entertainment audio devices,
> > whether they be $5 Walmart specials or much worse,
> those wildly overpriced
> > "specialty" hi-fi headsets.
> >
> > The best earbuds for communications use that I've ever
> found are Kenwood
> > HS-7 mono earbuds, with the essential limited
> frequency response.
> > Unfortunately they haven't been available for more
> than a decade.
> >
> > If you have headsets that are spec'd for entertainment
> audio purposes, that
> > should immediately be a warning that they are far from
> optimal for communications
> > use unless nothing else is available.
> >
> > Mike / KK5F
> >

Mike Morrow-3

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by K7TV

>The filtering should be done before the audio gets to the headphones.
>A low end pair of headphones only acts to cover up flaws in receiver
>design.

What an imaginative and creative response! You say in effect that all
those purpose-designed limited frequency response audio devices that
communcations engineers have created for many decades are completely
unnecessary if only one has a properly designed receiver. Please, give us some
examples of such receivers which are not aided by the use of properly
designed narrow response audio devices.

We were discussing the KX1. Is that on your list? Do you contest the benefit
of narrow response headphones here? (HINT: I have many receivers better
than the KX1, still proper frequency response limited headsets help.)

If you have no valid list, your assertion is gratuitous.

Aside from this <null> list, most people do not design the receiver they are using,
nor do they choose one designed elsewhere, with the goal of obtaining one that
allows them to use entertainment quality headphones to no disadvantage, when
when something of narrower response is better.

Here are the facts: Regardless of receiver design, even for communication receivers
of the highest quality, it is ALWAYS very helpful to use properly designed
communications headsets, as opposed to expensive (or cheap) hi-fi entertainment sets.
There are NO exceptions to this.

Mike / KK5F
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Wes Stewart

Wes,

I agree with you completely. The headphone response should not be the
limiting factor. - headphones should be designed for fidelity, not a
constrained response.

If the audio response must be tailored, it should be done before the
headphones - the RX response or though the use of an AF low pass filter.

Some may disagree, but I believe good high fidelity response in the
headphones is important. If the response is not right, the place to fix
it is in whatever is before the headphones.

I do accept that 'communications headphones' will do the job, but they
are usually an effective low pass filter in combination with a full
range set of headphone transducers.

73,
Don W3FPR

Wes Stewart wrote:

> I concur 100% with Brett (for a change). Filtering should be done electronically where it can be controlled, not mechanically where all it does is add distortion.
>
> It was a revelation when I was first working EME in the early eighties and was still using some military "communications" headphones and I changed over to some Koss "hi-fi" phones and an in-line 200 Hz wide LC filter. There were signals buried in that mush that was all I was hearing with the "communications" phones.
>
> Later I bought into the brand "H" hype and got a headset at my local ham emporium. After about five minutes of listening, I took them back. They were simply awful! I don't think much of the microphones either, even though they are wildly popular.
>
> It's hard to beat a nice passive LC brute force filter. They can clean up a multitude of sins that we are presented with by the afterthought audio stages in modern transceivers.
>
> Wes N7WS
>
>
>
>

K7TV

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

For the Amateur Service with its variations in modulation specifications, it
doesn't make any sense to me to put response shaping in the headphones, as
we then might want multiple sets for multiple modes. Also, it doesn't make
sense to limit the bandwidth at a point where it doesn't affect AGC sensing.
Many years ago when it was hard to come by good selectivity at the IF, some
bandwidth limitation in the headphones may have been justified for reasons
of economical implementation. I don't know if airplane pilots' headsets
limit frequency response, but if they do, I suspect it is a matter of
standards being hard to change, and manufacturers not wanting cheaper
products made for other purposes to work well.

Anyway, I went to RS and bought a pair of MDR-J10 for about $15. These have
hooks that go around the ears to hold them securely. I checked them in the
store against my old Optimus, and they were about the same loudness on just
the hiss from the KX1. Another brand which also had hooks was clearly
inferior. Most other types in the store had printed impedance and
sensitivity spec's, and were judged inferior based on the spec's alone.

73,
Erik K7TV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2009 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX1 headphones

> Wes,
>
> I agree with you completely. The headphone response should not be the
> limiting factor. - headphones should be designed for fidelity, not a
> constrained response.
>
> If the audio response must be tailored, it should be done before the
> headphones - the RX response or though the use of an AF low pass filter.
>
> Some may disagree, but I believe good high fidelity response in the
> headphones is important. If the response is not right, the place to fix
> it is in whatever is before the headphones.
>
> I do accept that 'communications headphones' will do the job, but they
> are usually an effective low pass filter in combination with a full
> range set of headphone transducers.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>

Brett Howard

Re: KX1 headphones

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

I've worked as a design engineer in the audio industry for quite a
while... Rather than provide a list I'll just agree to disagree.

Personally I see "communications" specific headphones as a product
designed to separate people from their money and in that task they are
quite effective.

~BTH

On Sat, 2009-08-22 at 22:21 -0400, Mike Morrow wrote:

> >The filtering should be done before the audio gets to the headphones.
> >A low end pair of headphones only acts to cover up flaws in receiver
> >design.
>
> What an imaginative and creative response! You say in effect that all
> those purpose-designed limited frequency response audio devices that
> communcations engineers have created for many decades are completely
> unnecessary if only one has a properly designed receiver. Please, give us some
> examples of such receivers which are not aided by the use of properly
> designed narrow response audio devices.
>
> We were discussing the KX1. Is that on your list? Do you contest the benefit
> of narrow response headphones here? (HINT: I have many receivers better
> than the KX1, still proper frequency response limited headsets help.)
>
> If you have no valid list, your assertion is gratuitous.
>
> Aside from this <null> list, most people do not design the receiver they are using,
> nor do they choose one designed elsewhere, with the goal of obtaining one that
> allows them to use entertainment quality headphones to no disadvantage, when
> when something of narrower response is better.
>
> Here are the facts: Regardless of receiver design, even for communication receivers
> of the highest quality, it is ALWAYS very helpful to use properly designed
> communications headsets, as opposed to expensive (or cheap) hi-fi entertainment sets.
> There are NO exceptions to this.
>
> Mike / KK5F
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

1 2