Joint Promotions V Independent Promotions

[Dennis Lord]

  I was asked the other day on my views on Joint Promotions V Independent  Promotions
  I have no real views one way or the other  I started with Don Robbinson in the early 60s and ended up running my own Promotions I was friendly with all Wrestlers and still have lots of Wrestling friends I talk to
 as I have said I have no views one way or the other,  So I thought I would post on the Heritage site
 and ask all our friends to air their views, and please try to be as fair as possible.
 We have Joint & Independent Supporters  so we should get some good posts
        all the best Dennis Lord ( the worst Wrestler in the World unless you know a worse one)
 

[Tigertiger2]

Hi Dennis, Ann here. I wouldn't say you were the worst but I remember you taking a bit of a beating at Tynemouth Plaza the first time I met you, I think I have a photo of you leaving the ring.

As with everything some promoters were worse than others, including those under the JP banner. However I loved Relwyskow and Green promotions, George was a gentleman and he always gave us a good nights wrestling.

Hope all is well up in Cullercoats.

[Dennis Lord]

Hi Ann
 You are very Kind but when I stated Wrestling I was only put in the Ring to make the Starrs look good
 I think I spent more time outside the Ring Trying to get back in  The First person to throw me out of the Ring was Lord Bertie Toppam  and I was not even Wrestling him  I think Don Robbinson saw this and thought this the crowd will like. I was a skinny Teenager in thoughes days  The Blue Angel used to laugh at me and say one day you will make a good Wrestler and guess what I am still trying
 Cullercoats is just the same as when you were here  Sorry to say the Plaza has gone
 I watched it Burn Down nothing to do with me, there was only the "rats" that spent more time than me there
 I think I Wrestled there more than any other Wrestlers, two of many Wrestlers started their Wrestling life there
 Johny Saint & Sue Britton I worked with both of them over the years Johny Saint was on the last Show I did as a Promoter

[Boston Crab]

joint promotions had the best wrestlers. you wouldn't see mick mcmanus on an independents show would you? and you knew you would see good wrestlers. seemed to be just a lot of gimmicks in the independent shows

[Hack]

Boston Crab wrote:

joint promotions had the best wrestlers. you wouldn't see mick mcmanus on an independents show would you? and you knew you would see good wrestlers. seemed to be just a lot of gimmicks in the independent shows

Really?

It's more difficult to think of wrestlers who have never worked for the independents. Most of the big names worked for the oppostion at one tme or another...

Farmer Johnny Allan, Leon Arras, Bert Assirati, Zoltan Boscik, Count Bartelli, Wayne Bridges, Wild Angus, Eddie Capelli, Linde Caulder, Tony Charles, Shirley Crabtree, Roy Bull Davis, Jack Dempsey, Joe D'Orazio, Dr Death, Barry Douglas, Bruno Elrington, Fit Finlay, Alan Garfield, Giant Haystacks, Georges Gordienko, Al hayes, Ray Hunter, Jim Hussey, Les Kellett, George Kidd, Ski Hi Lee, Danny Lynch, Mike Marino, Dennis Mitchell,  Kendo Nagasaki, Jackie Pallo, Quasimodo, Pat Roach, Johnny Saint, Ricky Starr, Adrian Street, Eric Taylor, Brian Trevors, Crusher Verdu, Steve Veidor, Norman Walsh.....

The Independent Promoters
Independent We Stand

[mickc]

Al MIQUET,DON MENDOZA,DAI SULLIVAN,TOM HOLTON,THE LAPAQUES,PETE ROBERTS,AL
MARQUETTE,ABE GINSBURG,CATWEAZLE,RAY GLENDENNING,KEVIN CONNEELY,and Ime sure theres more on the way.

[Boston Crab]

I think I'm getting the message.

[GHOST of SANDY SCOTT]

had the "independant promoters" got a look in regarding TV coverage, would of these "independants" , gone the same way as "JOINT" , who wanted to monopolise everything including the "WATER" supplied to Wrestlers, in the breaks between the rounds ..... remember those ?

[Eddie Rose]

Hi Dennis!

Most wrestlers worked both camps, so to speak. I remember on several occasions wrestling an opponent on an 'independent, show in Manchester one night and sharing a changing room with him two nights later on a Wryton show in Bolton. (Probably under different names, too).

Some started off with one side and swapped over and then back again several times during their careers. Many independent shows were small, in working mens clubs and the like but other were big affairs with class presentation and top of the range wrestlers - Paul Lincoln, Brian Dixon, Orig Williams. Oatley & Bartelli.

Regular 'Joints' wrestlers got plenty of TV exposure and, in the eyes of the average man in the street, this perhaps gave them more credibility and glamour.

It's a bit confidential but quite often, the wages did not quite match the popularity ratings and it was possible to earn better money at a relatively small Manchester venue than a two hundred mile round trip for an alleged big promoter.

No sour grapes: I loved it all and once received £3 for a bout in East Anglia and less than seven bob for a bout at Hyde Town Hall because there were no bums on the seats and the promoter was skint! Ask about the wages (and expenses) for a trip around the Butlin's Camps for Wryton promotions. Wow!

And, Dennis, I loved going over to Scarborugh for Don Robinson except he (or Tommy/Toma) often gave us a cheque that we had to go to a nearby pub to have cashed: I always wondered why?

Eddie Rose

[Boston Crab]

Thank you Eddie for your detailed reply and hack and Mick for putting me right. But didn't Joint have rules about wrestlers working outside Joint so wrestlers wouldn't work for both at the same time would they?

[Eddie Rose]

You are right about that: but even amongst some independent promoters if you worked for one promoter it could mean, on occasions, that another would not book you. It happened to me once and the ban lasted for about five years.

Joints were fairly strict but there was a fair bit of leeway and some wrestlers never strayed and other dodged about a bit. Pat Curry and Pete Curry were one and the same and I never knew who Pat (as I knew him) was actually working for. Hee'd be on TV on Saturday and top of the bill for an independent promoter in mid week.

Incidentally, has anyone heard anything of Pat Curry. I saw him at a reunion at Ellesmere Port a couple of years ago and he was due for heart surgery within a few weeks. News would be appreciated.


Eddie Rose

[Hack]

I don't think we should take any credit away from the original Joint Promotion members. They had a love for the sport, and risked their money and their reputation to drag the sport out of the doldrums in the post war years. They were dependable and could be relied on to produce good quality professioanl shows suitable for all the family.

Less reputable promoters inevitably came from the independent side. This masks the fact that there were many reputable independent promoters who did put on shows that equalled, or excelled, the Join Promotion product. Paul Lincoln, Cape Promotions, Jack Taylor and Don Robinson put on excellent shows. Eddie Rose spoke highly of  Spartan Promotions. I would imagine that Independent Joint Promotions, A&T, Anglia and many other independent promoters were just as reliable.    

[Dennis Lord]

Hack I like your views you will not be surprised I do not agree.  I think you are being unfair to label certain Independent Promoters as Less Reptuble  As you know I have folowed Wrestling since the early 60s I have listend To Promoters,Wrestlers and fans all the moans and growns  as you know I never take sides  and never knock anybody well just once.Without Promoters where would wrestling be, I will put my hand on heart and say I never met a bad Promoter I might not agree with there style but they all put Wrestling First.
 So I think this is one for Heritage people to put the case for Promoters
 THE GOOD THE BAD AND IN MY CASE THE UGLY
 Please be fair with your coments  as I have said we all played our part in Wrestling history

[Hack]

You know that I don't knock the independents Dennis, my support for them goes back to the days when you were good looking!

You say you never met a bad promoter. That's good. I only went to one really bad independent show (put on by a promoter who at other times put on good shows) so I'm not speaking from experience.

If there was a disreputable promoter, though, they would inevitably be an independent, and I was saying that this should not change our view of the 99.9% of good independent promoters.

Is that any better sunshine?

I'm away till Sunday night and so if I don't reply to any further comments I'm not sulking!

[Dennis Lord]

Things have dried up on Joint v Independent Promotion Question   the reason I have posted today is that I get a lot of e-mails of people asking my views  I always give the same answer check out the Heritage site it would be a lie if I said I did not have a view, but I like to keep that private  I do not mind Debating the issue.
 I have been talking to someone off a well know site  about Wrestling today against the World of sport days  These days Promoters advertise shows then just do not show up and it seems to be common.
 I only remember this ever happening once in all the time I was Wrestling and I was so disgusted I never worked for that Promoter again.  It seems that wrestling in the WOS days we worried more about the fans that paid our wages, please post your views as there is still a lot of interest

[Riot Squad]

Maybe the question is inappropriate?  Was there really such a conflict?

I reckon the independent promoters were just as much in competition with each other as with Joint Promotions.  I'm sure it wasn't all hunky-dory amongst them.

The existence of so many promotions, shows, and therefore wrestlers is just another sign of the popularity of the sport.  Joint Promotions got the whole business publicised through tv exposure.  All their strictness is justifiable in satisfyting ITV.  The independents prospered off the tv exposure created by JPs, and without the responsibility of having to play things too straight.

Then the independents served to be a training ground for new talent for JPs;  or a compound for lost, wayward, naughty or in one way or another unusable JP wrestlers.

If either one group were so much better than the other, there wouldn't have been so much criss-crossing.

Sounds like a pretty fair match-up to me, one which ends as a No Contest.

[Dennis Lord]

Hi Anglo
  I like your comment a no contest, but then you go on say that the Independent Promoters
 did not have to play it straight. It is no seceret you were more of a Joint fan, but to be fair the Independent Promoters did a awfull lot for British Wrestling. It would be nice if we could get a lot more posts of peoples views

[Boston Crab]

When i said that all the best wrestlers worked for Joint Promotions I think you've shown I was wrong. Wasn't it true that Joint were more reliable? Their wrestlers usually showed up but there were a lot more changes on independent shows.

[jadenbex]

Hi Ann, i wondered if you could possibly help me, i am trying to find some information about Relwyskow + Green promotions in particular a Mr Mark Green who i believe was a master of ceremonies at the wrestling events. I have been reading the forum and noticed you have mentioned these promotors and wondered if you may have known them. Any information would be of great interest to me. Thanks Vicky.

[Eddie Rose]

Mark Green succeeded Ben Green as MC at the King's Hall, Belle Vue, Manchester. That was where I first met him and we became good friends over a number of years.

He was small, slim, very neatly turned out for his work as MC and had a very good microphone voice and manner. On a number of occasions I gave him a lift from Belle Vue down to Victoria Station to catch his train for Leeds for which he always took the time to thank me (more than some others ever did!).

His knowledge of wrestling and wrestlers was excellent and he was a fund of stories about some of the goings-on, feuds, comedy and outright daftness that some of the wrestlers got up to from time to time.

I came across on occasions at other shows and he always treated me and the other wrestlers courteously and respectfully and was a popular MC who added much to the shows at which he officiated.

Remembered with affection.
Eddie Rose