Java-collab meeting on geometry

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Jody Garnett-2

Java-collab meeting on geometry

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Andrea has done a good job setting up a collaboration opportunity for
us with the deegree team. Looks like there is an IRC breakout meeting
later today:
- http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2009&month=7&day=8&hour=9&min=30&sec=0&p1=215&p2=240&p3=179&p4=1091

>From my standpoint...
- I want to see collaboration occur; especially on geometry which is a
hard problem
- I would like to see collaboration occur regardless
- hopefully we can set this up on a java-collab svn; or (worst case)
use a distributed version control system to pull changes around

One thing I have gotten stuck on; and this is annoying me; is that I
am unable to talk about the geometry solutions we have here without
appearing to be against collaboration :-(

Specifically there are a couple of things I want to learn from our
implementation (jts-wrapper and geometry):
- it is too much to expect the solution to be solved (this is a large problem)
- just having the data structure is good enough for 90% of the use
cases (WFS publication; rendering; etc...)
- a separation between geometry data structure and operation is needed
for the long term use of a geometry library
- choice of operation needs to occur based on both the type of
geometry primitive (point, curve, surface) and on the coordinate
reference system - this is mostly what Adrian Custer discovered
- ISO 19107 != SFSQL for a few low level operations (I cannot remember
the details we need to ask gdavis)

Jody

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Jody Garnett-2

Re: Java-collab meeting on geometry

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I went over the deegree geometry implementation with Ben.

It seems fine; very similar to jts-wrapper in places, not quite as far
along as gt-geometry module, but a very sensible starting place.

Interestingly their codebase has a trunk/tags per module - here are
some examples:
- http://wald.intevation.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/deegree3/commons/trunk/src/org/deegree/geometry/standard/primitive/DefaultLineString.java?rev=18333&root=deegree&view=markup

Showing the use of control points; something right out of ISO 19107.

- http://wald.intevation.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/deegree3/commons/trunk/src/org/deegree/geometry/standard/primitive/DefaultCurve.java?rev=18333&root=deegree&view=markup

Showing the definition of a buildJTSGeometry method.

- http://wald.intevation.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/deegree3/commons/trunk/src/org/deegree/geometry/standard/primitive/DefaultEnvelope.java?rev=18333&root=deegree&view=markup

Implementation of our friend "Envelope", "BoundingBox", "ReferencedEnvelope".

Jody

On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Jody Garnett<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Andrea has done a good job setting up a collaboration opportunity for
> us with the deegree team. Looks like there is an IRC breakout meeting
> later today:
> - http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2009&month=7&day=8&hour=9&min=30&sec=0&p1=215&p2=240&p3=179&p4=1091
>
> From my standpoint...
> - I want to see collaboration occur; especially on geometry which is a
> hard problem
> - I would like to see collaboration occur regardless
> - hopefully we can set this up on a java-collab svn; or (worst case)
> use a distributed version control system to pull changes around
>
> One thing I have gotten stuck on; and this is annoying me; is that I
> am unable to talk about the geometry solutions we have here without
> appearing to be against collaboration :-(
>
> Specifically there are a couple of things I want to learn from our
> implementation (jts-wrapper and geometry):
> - it is too much to expect the solution to be solved (this is a large problem)
> - just having the data structure is good enough for 90% of the use
> cases (WFS publication; rendering; etc...)
> - a separation between geometry data structure and operation is needed
> for the long term use of a geometry library
> - choice of operation needs to occur based on both the type of
> geometry primitive (point, curve, surface) and on the coordinate
> reference system - this is mostly what Adrian Custer discovered
> - ISO 19107 != SFSQL for a few low level operations (I cannot remember
> the details we need to ask gdavis)
>
> Jody
>

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Rob Atkinson

Re: Java-collab meeting on geometry

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In reply to this post by Jody Garnett-2
I cant make this meeting at short notice, but I'd like to express my
support for the idea of collaboration.

The similarities between Deegree and Geoserver lead to quite
reasonable questions of "which horse do I back", which may result in
failure to commit to anything - having a collaboration makes it look
like both products are going to be around IMHO - i.e. they are not
just duplicating effort but have some different characterisitcs.

The main technical point I'd like to make is the use of a formal data
model (eg ISO 19107) is important for people developing domain data
models - its much harder for uys to care about the particular model an
implementation chooses (this week) - so most of the WFS applications
will want to have geometry models grounded in ISO 19107. This needs to
be the full spatio-temporal support, so things like DirectPosition
can't be blithely assumed to be 2d, or even 3d.

While we are at it, at some stage we'd like to see support for ISO
topology at some stage, so the solution should not close that door.

Rob Atkinson



On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Jody Garnett<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Andrea has done a good job setting up a collaboration opportunity for
> us with the deegree team. Looks like there is an IRC breakout meeting
> later today:
> - http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2009&month=7&day=8&hour=9&min=30&sec=0&p1=215&p2=240&p3=179&p4=1091
>
> >From my standpoint...
> - I want to see collaboration occur; especially on geometry which is a
> hard problem
> - I would like to see collaboration occur regardless
> - hopefully we can set this up on a java-collab svn; or (worst case)
> use a distributed version control system to pull changes around
>
> One thing I have gotten stuck on; and this is annoying me; is that I
> am unable to talk about the geometry solutions we have here without
> appearing to be against collaboration :-(
>
> Specifically there are a couple of things I want to learn from our
> implementation (jts-wrapper and geometry):
> - it is too much to expect the solution to be solved (this is a large problem)
> - just having the data structure is good enough for 90% of the use
> cases (WFS publication; rendering; etc...)
> - a separation between geometry data structure and operation is needed
> for the long term use of a geometry library
> - choice of operation needs to occur based on both the type of
> geometry primitive (point, curve, surface) and on the coordinate
> reference system - this is mostly what Adrian Custer discovered
> - ISO 19107 != SFSQL for a few low level operations (I cannot remember
> the details we need to ask gdavis)
>
> Jody
>
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> This is your chance to win up to $100,000 in prizes! For a limited time,
> vendors submitting new applications to BlackBerry App World(TM) will have
> the opportunity to enter the BlackBerry Developer Challenge. See full prize
> details at: http://p.sf.net/sfu/Challenge
> _______________________________________________
> Geotools-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/geotools-devel
>

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aaime

Re: Java-collab meeting on geometry

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In reply to this post by Jody Garnett-2
Jody Garnett ha scritto:

> Andrea has done a good job setting up a collaboration opportunity for
> us with the deegree team. Looks like there is an IRC breakout meeting
> later today:
> - http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2009&month=7&day=8&hour=9&min=30&sec=0&p1=215&p2=240&p3=179&p4=1091
>
>>From my standpoint...
> - I want to see collaboration occur; especially on geometry which is a
> hard problem
> - I would like to see collaboration occur regardless
> - hopefully we can set this up on a java-collab svn; or (worst case)
> use a distributed version control system to pull changes around
>
> One thing I have gotten stuck on; and this is annoying me; is that I
> am unable to talk about the geometry solutions we have here without
> appearing to be against collaboration :-(

Well, as far as I'm concerned the "solutions we have" seem to be
dead and buried, no work went on in these in a long time, and no
usage of them has been reported.

DeeGree on the other side has used in production a similar geometry
model and is evolving it for DeeGree 3 to use it again in production,
and they will use it regardless of whether we participate or not,
meaning that library already has long term commitment backing it.
I also had the impression DeeGree people value pragmatism as opposed
to "implement every ISO spec under the Sun", something I have the
feeling is also the position of the current GeoTools PMC.

As you said making a geom library is a lot of work, it makes sense
to team up and share the load.
Wasting this occasion would be a major setback for GeoTools in my opinion.

Cheers
Andrea

--
Andrea Aime
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
Expert service straight from the developers.

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Justin Deoliveira

Re: Java-collab meeting on geometry

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A big +1 here. We are already spread pretty thin in GeoTools in terms of
developer resources vs number of modules so sharing maintainence burden
with another community outweighs any edge that the code that is sitting
unmaintained at the moment might have.

And as Andrea states what they have is being used in production. I have
heard "stories" of people using the modules in GeoTools in production,
but only through the grapevine, i have never seen any proof of that. So
I would much rather use something I know and can verify is being used
rather than something that someones tells me is being used but can't
verify it.

Andrea Aime wrote:

> Jody Garnett ha scritto:
>> Andrea has done a good job setting up a collaboration opportunity for
>> us with the deegree team. Looks like there is an IRC breakout meeting
>> later today:
>> - http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2009&month=7&day=8&hour=9&min=30&sec=0&p1=215&p2=240&p3=179&p4=1091
>>
>> >From my standpoint...
>> - I want to see collaboration occur; especially on geometry which is a
>> hard problem
>> - I would like to see collaboration occur regardless
>> - hopefully we can set this up on a java-collab svn; or (worst case)
>> use a distributed version control system to pull changes around
>>
>> One thing I have gotten stuck on; and this is annoying me; is that I
>> am unable to talk about the geometry solutions we have here without
>> appearing to be against collaboration :-(
>
> Well, as far as I'm concerned the "solutions we have" seem to be
> dead and buried, no work went on in these in a long time, and no
> usage of them has been reported.
>
> DeeGree on the other side has used in production a similar geometry
> model and is evolving it for DeeGree 3 to use it again in production,
> and they will use it regardless of whether we participate or not,
> meaning that library already has long term commitment backing it.
> I also had the impression DeeGree people value pragmatism as opposed
> to "implement every ISO spec under the Sun", something I have the
> feeling is also the position of the current GeoTools PMC.
>
> As you said making a geom library is a lot of work, it makes sense
> to team up and share the load.
> Wasting this occasion would be a major setback for GeoTools in my opinion.
>
> Cheers
> Andrea
>


--
Justin Deoliveira
OpenGeo - http://opengeo.org
Enterprise support for open source geospatial.

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