Independence of State Schools - perthnow comments

[govt school teacher]

Great to see, particularly this one as it debunks the offensive rubbish served up in upper school by so-called English teachers!

" Our high school is one who has been offered the chance to go independent and we're grabbing it, albeit with due care, as ultimately the devil is in the detail and the full details of the freedom vs constraints have not yet been provided. I believe they are still a work in progress. Apart from the opportunities to escape the "provider capture" of a centralised bureaucracy that results in horrific waste and flagrant abuse (by the suppliers and service providers who have been given monopolies) and apart from the opportunity for (in our case) a competent and fair principal and admin to finally get rid of some hopeless teachers, the main attraction is that it will give us the very best opportunity we've had for years to regain a DECENT curriculum after the ravaging by the dysfunctional Curriculum Council. We will remove the appalling outcomes based education garbage and all that went or goes with it. (levels, SIS nCoS) We are already planning to offer the International Baccalaureate for exactly this reason. In other areas, we intend to return to decent knowledge based syllabus and decent assessment - in particular to get rid entirely of the offensive and unmitigated dogshit which is corrupting our students of English - the foul pop psychology and amateur sociology / political brainwashing post modernism / critical literacy / deconstruction lies that have been substituted for a proper, independent and in-depth study of the mechanics of the language we speak. All systems go. THANK YOU, LIZ!!!!"

    Posted by: new broom of 7:26pm today
    Comment 35 of 35

[General Public]

The SSTUWA has not been consulted about these changes and should have been.

See SSTUWA website.

Sounds like this is going to be very controversial. What do teachers think?

[Major Change]

This is inevitable. Both Labor and Liberal are moving towards privatisation of schools although neither of them ever admit it because it's  unpopular with the electorate. The question is what model to follow. Nothing could better demonstrate the abject failure of a centralised bureaucracy than the imposition of the shocking OBE rubbish, the failed Curriculum Framework and its catarrhine jockeys, the Curriculum Council.

'I say "Well said" to the perthnow poster "new broom", particularly the comments about English (2A & 2B). It's downright disgusting that children are forced to listen to this biased PC tripe when most of them are desperately in need and wanting a proper study of the English language. And  to "General public"; unfortunately the question is "do teachers think?" Most don't. That's the reason to a large part why they've found themselves teaching third rate courses in second rate schools for fourth rate pay and conditions. Nobody's expecting much to change in that regard, so nothing much will change, except for those who make the effort to take advantage of opportunities such as this one suggested by the current government and the only education minister to actually DO anything pro-active for decades.

[Michael Findlay]

I find it hard to believe that DET is going to allow full autonomy in curriculum writing, especially in relation to university entry. After all the moderation and standardisation of the past surely they're not about to let students studying common sense compete against those studying NCOS.

I'm a bit behind in my reading and may have missed something relevant here.

[Oberver]

I think we need to be careful of the hidden details in this proposal. Just one example is that the independent public schools would have to pay for services now provided by DET such as school psychologists. At around $3 000 per intellectual assessment that could be a major chunk of a school's budget. There is also no provision for extra time or funding to take on the enormous school-based workload that would be needed for self-management. I wouldn't be rushing into this deal.

[DISCO]

WELL WELL ! So who will win the 30 spots up for grabs? You can bet particular schools with specific principals in certain areas will get the gig as DET would not want this "TRIAL"  to fail.........even though it has been set up with no consultation with the stakeholders, certainly no Union involvement and no parent/community groups included because it is my cynical guess they do not want too much close scrutiny........let alone any accountability now or in the future.....because as we know ACCOUNTABILITY in DET is dead.
LETS'S JUST PRIVATISE EVERYTHING including all schools - that would make all Govts (Lib and Lab ) happy.......no responsibility taken.
My wise and smart principal back in 1984 told me to expect this one day......in my life time as a teacher. I said......when it happens I'll hit the road......... as I will not be on the "Titanic when it really does sink." The iceberg is in the water....we are just a year away.
I see more problems than solutions and when I draw up my PMI chart I cannot find too many plus aspects. SORRY......but I believe everyone rich or poor deserves a GOOD EDUCATION, not dependent on where they live or where they are born or who their parents are.
Tell me....is that so wrong ....to believe in Equity and Fairness.

Please don't sell out PUBLIC EDUCATION - we do not want a two tiered system of public schools.

[realist]

Excellent letter in today's West from Rik THornton of Floreat. Spot on, Rik!!

 Disco - try another metaphor than that of the Titanic - Rome burns while Nero fiddles.
To you and any other teacher; Get up with it and get involved, or accept responsibility for the crap you're left with and which will be your legacy to future generations.

[Observer with an s]

I'm with you, DISCO. Some pertinent cliches come to mind- Be careful what you wish for, the devil is in the detail, fools rush in.....etc, etc.
If you look at the past 20 years in education when has a government made decisions that are based on what is best for the students, teachers and schools? It's always about money and the bottom line of this one is that principals, who are educators, are going to be expected to be business managers and stretch a set amount of dollars to meet the needs of their students, staff and community. And I bet the budgets will not be sufficient to do that properly- imagine the trade-offs. Do we get an EA for this student with high needs or employ four cleaners instead of three? Do we have smaller classes below formula or employ an extra teacher for support? Those are the nitty gritty decisions that will have to be made.

[Primary Teacher2]

Govt School Teacher makes some fair  points about why the independent school trial COULD be good news .... BUT - this is the system they have in New Zealand and I've had a fair amount of experience with it.  I would say it should be resisted at all costs.  If you get this system, teaching will never be the same. It will affect teachers in ways that you haven't thought of yet!
The NZ experience:
1.  Principals with a tendancy to bully staff will get worse with the extra power they get.
2.  cronyism and jobs for "the boys" is rife.
3. If you are employed by the school and not the state, the whole dynamics of your employment change .... people are very reluctant to take leave, no-one speaks out against the principal, no-one goes against the grain.
4. The promised money is never enough!

[Smithers]

Dear Readers

Good to see the increase in posts of late...

I was there at the PLATO meeting when Collier talked about 'community schools' as he called it then. This was his response to a question  someone posed about how the libs would improve public education in WA should they get in. Needless to say, the audience was unenthusiastic about his ideas...i remember telling him there and then that his 'community schools' idea would do nothing useful unless there was a substantial increase in public school funding.

He got the message but I remember his eyes glazed over as I spoke to him - as though he was looking into the distance.

This is the crux though - the liberal independent government schools concept is a smokescreen, a diversion from the real issue which is the continual underfunding of public schools by both political parties.

This is the core issue, not whether or not government schools become 'independent'.

Kind Regards
Smithers

[MORRIE]

Perhaps it is time to take time to consider the "devolution" process.

Increasing numbers of parents (and perhaps students) have decided, over recent years, to not enrol in the DET school system. Yes, the OBE debacle explains some of this shift but not all of the shift.

My experience is that parents are looking for schools where, notwithstanding religious preference, the Prinicipal and teachers have greater autonomy re discipline and this is closely related to the calibre of the employed teaching staff; particularly with respect to the ability of the Principal to determine the atributes and acumen of the teachers they employ to suit particular needs at the school.

Each of us who have/do work in the DET system know there are currently employed teachers in the system who should look for another form of employment. By allowing "devolution", at least the DET schools system can begin to develop a better reputation to attract clientele.

I agree that the "devolution" approach is not the best way but it is a move in the right direction, in that the long held position [aka SSTUWA] has simply allowed the DET "Human Resources" department to continue to be less than effective re placing teachers in a productive manner that suits the needs of schools and hence students and parents. [ie teachers are treated as numbers and not persons]

Scenario: A young, 4 year out and highly skilled teacher who we hope would stay in teaching, having worked in a remote community DET school, can not gain employment in a 'flag ship' school because of DET bureaucratic rules, stays unwillingly, in the remote location and as a result seeks employment in the private school sector.  This skilled young teacher may well be lost to the DET system unless some of the DET schools can advertise for staff and compete for staff during the season the private schools advertise.

In essence, my argument is that DET has not demonstrated sufficient ability to consistently attract and retain the best of the graduates.  Perhaps "devolution" is the way to go.  Trouble is, how good will be the DET Principals re this task?

[MiM]

I agree with DISCO.

While it is tempting to loosen the DET grasp ASAP, we must also think of the common good.

Sure, we ALL want to get rid of the riff-raff students from our schools!  Let's do it!  IPS sends that messages loud and clear - you can get rid of them!  But to where?  Another public school, of course!

Immediately, we have the start of a two-tiered system.  This is the American experience, where ghetto schools suffer, while the leafy-greens prosper with extra parental funding, corporate resourcing etc..  Is this truly what we want for education in this state?  Or, in this nation?  The 'take-all-and'run's may be happy to walk away from the problems, but is that good governance?  NO!!  We aim to have a system that is fair and equitable to all.  IPSs create an UNFAIR system.  Please ensure your school does not go down this path.  

Surely one must have reservations, just given the time-line to submit an application?!!?  This is all about relieving govt of its resposibility to provide free education to everyone, and we all know the horror stories of cronyism and nepotism that exist even under the guise of current arrangements - it will definately be a FEATURE of IPSs!!  One school principal has already told a union rep that staff who get to stay will be the ones he gets on with!!  

People quote Finland as having fabulous schooling outcomes.  But, there are NO private schools there!!!  ALL education is state based.  Hmmm... getting the message, folks?

We ALL like the sound of getting DET off our backs, so that we can administer education properly.  BUT WE MUST MOVE ON THIS TOGETHER.  The healthy changes allowed for IPS schools must be brought in ACROSS all public schools, with many more safeguards put in place, to protect ALL schools and families.  

I BEG OF TEACHERS - DO NOT LET YOUR SCHOOL GO DOWN THIS PATH NOW!
Help us win the right to govern effectively, as a cohort, as a combined force.  
Surely we haven't come down to 'dog eat dog'  Lord-of the-Flies thinking for public education?????

[Russell]

Having seen an emerging IB implementation (and I am no expert), I would suggest to be a little careful what you wish for.  Some of the requirements are difficult for a government school (especially outside the green leafies).  LOTE requirements, personal projects, external marking, understanding the new curriculum, getting accredited, and PD often out of state (and lots of it to do).  The money to do this has to come from somewhere and government schools do not have substantial fees nor generally the "service to community" attitude found in upper private schools.

I'm not criticising state school teachers (after all.. I am one and proud of it) but I do question whether schools have the wherewithall to do IB without systemic help whilst at the same time attempting to gain independence of DET structures.

:-)

[Secondary Teacher]

I certainly do not want a three tier system to operate in WA. I really would like to see the removal of all central and district educators after a period of 5-7 years out of schools.  I would like to see all these people back in the classroom - not as administrators, but as teachers attempting to implement all the rubbish teachers have had to put up with over the past 10-15 years.
These administrators have failed classroom teachers and students big time. I am a firm believer that all kids are entitled to a first class education system and the Independent Public Schools will certainly not bring about a first class public education  system for all kids in this state.

I am waiting for the Union to knock this on the head - the Executive have had plenty of time to make sure this does not eventuate and the half cohort problem has been known for years - what has our Union done about this problem? Better to be proactive rather than reactive - unfortunately, our President appears to be reactive in her approach to handling major issues.

[Michael Findlay]

Government School Teacher,

I'm curious, are you a principal, a raving optimist, or just someone who, for better or for worse, has a completely different attitude to me?

How can this plan, for all schools to become Independent State Schools, possibly be good for WA children. Sure some elite schools (perhaps your own) may benefit but what about those that teach the rest. How are difficult to staff schools going to attract dynamic, young or experienced teachers. How about the schools who get stuck with dud principals or with bullies.

Did you read the bit about the requirement for independent private schools to follow policies such as the mandated curriculum framework. The freedom not to follow 'some' policies is too vague to be promising.

The government is trying to save money not deliver a better education.

[Robert]

Government School Teacher,

Would you build a house without a plan?

There is no plan for IPS it is being made up on the run. This is a very interesting way to organise our schools.

I work in a school that has applied to become an IPS. It is very interesting that there is no answers to any of the questions that have been asked by the staff.

There has been 15 years of OBE which has directly affected the curriculum in schools. Now we are confronted by IPS, being applied the same way that will affect governance of schools.

Have we not learnt anything from the OBE experience?

[ageing hippie]

I've been around a long while, and am astounded at the naivete with which some schools  have enthusiastically  applied for a bucketful of headaches, not even knowing or caring what particular headches they might get.
102 schools have made expressions of interest. I would dearly like to know who is assessing the inflated claims these schools will undoubtedly make in their scramble to be in the first 30. Hmm? worse than shortlisting  applicants for jobs I should think.

[William Dwyer]

In reply to Michael Findlay's last addition - the "real" independent schools also must follow State government curriculum unless they choose IB (another set of rules which don't seem to be an improvement). I predict that the government will follow the usual pathway - thtow money at the first groups of schools to go independent and when this proves to be a success (everything the government does is doomed to success), then watch the funds dry up.