How easy is it to customise Plone, really?
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Katya
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How easy is it to customise Plone, really?
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Hello,
I'm about to quote for a job which uses Plone so will need to get to grips with it on some level. Now I'm a designer, absolutely nothing techie about me - XHTML and CSS, yes, programming languages definitely not. Can anyone tell me how easy it is for a non-techie to customise Plone? I have read a couple of articles which suggest that with no programming experience you are better off using the default XHTML template and simply editing the CSS. Is this true? |
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Diego Rubert
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Re: How easy is it to customise Plone, really?
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Depends on what level of customization do you wants...
Simple to low-medium customizations or most of visual changes can be made only with css, but heavy (me, for example) you need at least algorithms knowledge...
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Meyer, Erika
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RE: How easy is it to customise Plone, really?
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Sort of a related question... I thought I'd go in to fix some layout bugs on a customized plone site (a recent, but maybe not the latest, version of Plone)... thinking it would be a simple CSS layout, only to find a relatively complex table layout. It appears that the default HTML is a table layout. ? I'm wondering how important the HTML tables are to Plone's functionality, and are there plans to change to a CSS-based layout?
Thanks Erika ------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of diegorubert Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 11:04 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Plone-UI] How easy is it to customise Plone, really? Depends on what level of customization do you wants... Simple to low-medium customizations or most of visual changes can be made only with css, but heavy (me, for example) you need at least algorithms knowledge... Katya wrote: > > Hello, > > I'm about to quote for a job which uses Plone so will need to get to grips > with it on some level. Now I'm a designer, absolutely nothing techie about > me - XHTML and CSS, yes, programming languages definitely not. > > Can anyone tell me how easy it is for a non-techie to customise Plone? I > have read a couple of articles which suggest that with no programming > experience you are better off using the default XHTML template and simply > editing the CSS. Is this true? > > -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/How-easy-is-it-to-customise-Plone%2C-really--tp837182p1095998.html Sent from the User Interface & Design mailing list archive at Nabble.com. _______________________________________________ UI mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ui _______________________________________________ UI mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ui |
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vedaw
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Re: How easy is it to customise Plone, really?
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In reply to this post
by Diego Rubert
I think that you need to be savvy, but you don't need to be a programmer.
You won't get far just using CSS to skin Plone, though. You also need to be able to move stuff around, which requires understanding some fairly dense concepts and some light programming. If you really want this project, you will need to read up on the background of Plone (Definitive Guide to Plone -- outdated, but conceptually good) to understand how skin layers, acquisition, and TAL templating work. After that, you'll need to get your head wrapped around the idea of Zope 3 components (Martin Aspeli's book will come in handy here). Don't get too hung up here: A lot of theming comes down to knowing where stuff is and understanding where to put it. You'll also need these two tutorials: Create a Theme Product: http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/use-paster Move Stuff Around: http://plone.org/documentation/tutorial/customizing-main-template-viewlets Since you say that you are not a Plone programmer, you have to make a decision as to whether you're willing to make the time investment to learn Plone. I'm not sure I would bother learning all of this for just one project. This isn't like building sites with Dreamweaver, but it's incredibly rewarding. I wouldn't go back to Dreamweaver for any amount of money. If you show us what you have in mind, we can give you an idea of what will be difficult. If you have a lot of stuff happening in the center of the page -- which amounts to custom templating -- that will increase the difficulty. If it's not too complex, we can probably walk you through the steps if you need help. In the meantime, my suggestion is that if you can read these two tutorials and it doesn't scare the hell out of you, you've got a good chance of succeeding: http://plone.org/documentation/tutorial/buildout http://plone.org/documentation/tutorial/customizing-main-template-viewlets - Veda On 9/17/08 11:04 AM, "diegorubert" <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Depends on what level of customization do you wants... > Simple to low-medium customizations or most of visual changes can be made > only with css, but heavy (me, for example) you need at least algorithms > knowledge... > > > Katya wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> I'm about to quote for a job which uses Plone so will need to get to grips >> with it on some level. Now I'm a designer, absolutely nothing techie about >> me - XHTML and CSS, yes, programming languages definitely not. >> >> Can anyone tell me how easy it is for a non-techie to customise Plone? I >> have read a couple of articles which suggest that with no programming >> experience you are better off using the default XHTML template and simply >> editing the CSS. Is this true? >> >> _______________________________________________ UI mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ui |
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vedaw
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Re: How easy is it to customise Plone, really?
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In reply to this post
by Meyer, Erika
Default Plone does use a table layout, which in turns pulls in code that
renders the page. You can use a tableless layout if you want, which I understand works pretty well in 3.0. It wasn't really supported in 2.0, but I understand it worked ok. Plone-2.0 uses a fairly complex main_template with some TAL / METAL templating. This is where the table structure lives. On the plus side (in terms of how easy it is for newbies), it uses templates that can be customized fairly easily without knowing much programming. You can do it easily through the web, too, if you don't have to deliver a filesystem product. Plone 3.0+ is more complicated and more programmer-y. It relies on a slimmer main_template and the idea of viewlets, which are snippets of code that you have to wire into place with some boilerplate code. Here's a 3.0 theme product that uses tableless: http://plone.org/products/webcouturier-hosting-theme On 9/17/08 11:14 AM, "Meyer, Erika" <[hidden email]> wrote: > Sort of a related question... I thought I'd go in to fix some layout bugs on a > customized plone site (a recent, but maybe not the latest, version of > Plone)... thinking it would be a simple CSS layout, only to find a relatively > complex table layout. It appears that the default HTML is a table layout. ? > I'm wondering how important the HTML tables are to Plone's functionality, and > are there plans to change to a CSS-based layout? > > Thanks > > Erika > > ------------------------------------------------- > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On > Behalf Of diegorubert > Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 11:04 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Plone-UI] How easy is it to customise Plone, really? > > > > Depends on what level of customization do you wants... > Simple to low-medium customizations or most of visual changes can be made > only with css, but heavy (me, for example) you need at least algorithms > knowledge... > > > Katya wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> I'm about to quote for a job which uses Plone so will need to get to grips >> with it on some level. Now I'm a designer, absolutely nothing techie about >> me - XHTML and CSS, yes, programming languages definitely not. >> >> Can anyone tell me how easy it is for a non-techie to customise Plone? I >> have read a couple of articles which suggest that with no programming >> experience you are better off using the default XHTML template and simply >> editing the CSS. Is this true? >> >> _______________________________________________ UI mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ui |
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David Little
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Re: How easy is it to customise Plone, really?
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In reply to this post
by vedaw
Hi,
Just to add that if you're not too put off by the initial complexities of Plone theming, then it's definitely worth checking out Anne Bowtell's Plone theming guide on Plone.org: http://plone.org/documentation/manual/theme-reference It's pretty big but it's a reference more than a tutorial. As for tables: in the theme I'm working on at the moment, I just customised the main_template file and replaced the table statements with <div>s. I don't see any reason why you shouldn't do this and I wouldn't be put off my those developers who tell you not to change main_template (if Joel Burton and Alex Limi say it's alright, then that's fine by me). Finally, if the Plone site you have to work on follows the basic layout of "out of the box" Plone you could just add your own styles in ploneCustom.css, although as already suggested, there's only so far you'll be able to get with this approach. Best wishes, David 2008/9/17 Veda Williams <[hidden email]>: > I think that you need to be savvy, but you don't need to be a programmer. > You won't get far just using CSS to skin Plone, though. You also need to be > able to move stuff around, which requires understanding some fairly dense > concepts and some light programming. > > If you really want this project, you will need to read up on the background > of Plone (Definitive Guide to Plone -- outdated, but conceptually good) to > understand how skin layers, acquisition, and TAL templating work. > > After that, you'll need to get your head wrapped around the idea of Zope 3 > components (Martin Aspeli's book will come in handy here). Don't get too > hung up here: A lot of theming comes down to knowing where stuff is and > understanding where to put it. > > You'll also need these two tutorials: > > Create a Theme Product: http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/use-paster > > Move Stuff Around: > http://plone.org/documentation/tutorial/customizing-main-template-viewlets > > Since you say that you are not a Plone programmer, you have to make a > decision as to whether you're willing to make the time investment to learn > Plone. I'm not sure I would bother learning all of this for just one > project. This isn't like building sites with Dreamweaver, but it's > incredibly rewarding. I wouldn't go back to Dreamweaver for any amount of > money. > > If you show us what you have in mind, we can give you an idea of what will > be difficult. If you have a lot of stuff happening in the center of the page > -- which amounts to custom templating -- that will increase the difficulty. > If it's not too complex, we can probably walk you through the steps if you > need help. > > In the meantime, my suggestion is that if you can read these two tutorials > and it doesn't scare the hell out of you, you've got a good chance of > succeeding: > > http://plone.org/documentation/tutorial/buildout > http://plone.org/documentation/tutorial/customizing-main-template-viewlets > > - Veda > > > On 9/17/08 11:04 AM, "diegorubert" <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> >> Depends on what level of customization do you wants... >> Simple to low-medium customizations or most of visual changes can be made >> only with css, but heavy (me, for example) you need at least algorithms >> knowledge... >> >> >> Katya wrote: >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I'm about to quote for a job which uses Plone so will need to get to grips >>> with it on some level. Now I'm a designer, absolutely nothing techie about >>> me - XHTML and CSS, yes, programming languages definitely not. >>> >>> Can anyone tell me how easy it is for a non-techie to customise Plone? I >>> have read a couple of articles which suggest that with no programming >>> experience you are better off using the default XHTML template and simply >>> editing the CSS. Is this true? >>> >>> > > > _______________________________________________ > UI mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ui > -- David Little www.littled.net _______________________________________________ UI mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ui |
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Espen Moe-Nilssen
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Re: How easy is it to customise Plone, really?
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Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)
I little about how I think of it (to keep it simple) =THE APPROACH I WOULD TAKE T0 LEARN IT 1) How it looks (css) 2) Where stuff is, for exmple you want a navigaion meny or a searchbox (portlets viewlets etc) 3) What (thing you have to make or install) 4) Making the theme "a product". I would start with this: (.... it is possible to do most of 1-3 TTW (through the web).) 1) do all css in ploneCustom.css (you find it and customize it) 2) you move things around and hides with: After you have managed to make a site look like you want, I would start to learn 3 and 4. (=css is the first thing you will have to learn) Den 18. sep. 2008 kl. 10.34 skrev David Little:
who wouldnt ?
_______________________________________________ UI mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ui |
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vedaw
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Re: How easy is it to customise Plone, really?
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Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)
On 9/19/08 2:45 AM, "Espen Moe-Nilssen" <[hidden email]> wrote: I little about how I think of it (to keep it simple) _______________________________________________ UI mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ui |
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Greg Miller
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Re: How easy is it to customise Plone, really?
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In reply to this post
by vedaw
I've found I'm in this exact same boat, except I was hired by a company to build web designs/skins for Plone/eCommerce. My company employs a very good Python developer. However, I do not think they (the company higher-ups) know much about Plone.
I am very good at learning on my own--but I wasn't prepared for this.
I've got quite a bit of experience working in interface design and web design but strictly no Python programming experience. I've also done quite a bit of stuff with ActionScript. I've been spending the past four weeks pouring over tutorials, manuals, and reading selective chapters of the Cooper and Aspeli's books.
This actually makes a lot of sense, I've been playing around with base_properties, the idea of the CSS layers and etc, but no-where was there info about how to upload a folder of images and point to them using the CSS pages.
I would be very interested in working with the Plone Forum to build out my skin idea as, my company is creating a long, long list of clients who want eCommerce sites and me to design them all. Yikes!
--blueMonkey
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vedaw
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Re: How easy is it to customise Plone, really?
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Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)
I was just looking at your other email... If paster scares you, don't worry too much. You can generate a theme product using: http://paster.joelburton.com. It's just a TTW representation of paster and it's basic recipes. Eventually, if you get to where you can use paster using your Terminal window, you can, since when you install Plone it installs paster, ZopeSkel, etc. for you. Now, as for building out websites... First the ecommerce bit. I assume you've been looking at GetPaid? That's pretty much your only serious ecommerce option for Plone. Your other option would be to skin around a different ecommerce product and make it look like a Plone site. We've done that for snowleopard.org, with ZenCart, I think. As for skinning, you're right, it's tough. But yes, you can get away without knowing anything about Python. I think at this point, your best resource, other than the tutorials I've already shown you, would be to buy the new Practical Plone book which is about 1 week away from going into print and is currently accepting preorders. I worked with David Convent on a really great chapter on skinning for Plone that I think will help a lot of people, or at least I hope so. http://packtpub.com/building-plone-websites-through-the-graphical-interface/book Martin Aspeli's Practical Plone Development also covers theming, but his treatment is really fast and a bit obtuse. I'm sorry that my own theming book isn't done yet, it's probably going to be March before it's finished, as the rate I'm going. As far as the top tutorials I'd recommend: http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/how-to-create-a-plone-3-theme-product-on-the-filesystem http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/how-to-install-a-3-x-theme-using-buildout http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/how-to-make-your-css-changes-take-effect-instantly http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/change-the-logo-in-plone-3 http://plone.org/documentation/tutorial/customizing-main-template-viewlets (this one is hands down the best of them all in terms of trying to walk you through the step by step process) http://plone.org/documentation/manual/theme-reference (worth spending some quality time with this one) When you get to the point of needing a new home page design, you're going to need some programming expertise -- probably TAL instead of Python, or you can always come back and ask. Maybe one of us will have a solution for you. I think that's the nature of any CMS you work with. By the way, James Cameron Cooper’s book is good, but it is *quite* outdated, so bear that in mind. I’d recommend a combination of Definitive Guide to Plone and Martin Aspeli’s book to start with. Let me know if this does not answer your question... - Veda On 11/26/08 8:35 AM, "bluemonkey" <[hidden email]> wrote: I've found I'm in this exact same boat, except I was hired by a company to build web designs/skins for Plone/eCommerce. My company employs a very good Python developer. However, I do not think they (the company higher-ups) know much about Plone. I am very good at learning on my own--but I wasn't prepared for this. I've got quite a bit of experience working in interface design and web design but strictly no Python programming experience. I've also done quite a bit of stuff with ActionScript. I've been spending the past four weeks pouring over tutorials, manuals, and reading selective chapters of the Cooper and Aspeli's books. This actually makes a lot of sense, I've been playing around with base_properties, the idea of the CSS layers and etc, but no-where was there info about how to upload a folder of images and point to them using the CSS pages. I would be very interested in working with the Plone Forum to build out my skin idea as, my company is creating a long, long list of clients who want eCommerce sites and me to design them all. Yikes! --blueMonkey _______________________________________________ UI mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/ui |
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