How I hate (some) DBAs

9 messages

Ian-7

How I hate (some) DBAs

Reply Threaded

Hi
We are just coming to the end of our development with a (very) tight
timescale and pretty much on-time due to the use of DBIC and Catalyst.

Development was on MySQL but someone has now decided we have to run on
Oracle. OK, no problem we thought, it should migrate over with very few
issues since we are using DBIC.

However, the Oracle DBA has thrown his teddy out of the pram and refuses
to accept that DBIC can generate efficient code, or code that he can
inspect, and insists that we use an 'API' that he will show us how to
create to use pl/sql statements. From what I have seen of it, it will
take me back about 10 years to where I was trying to generate my own DB
abstraction layer before I learned about CDBI and DBIC. Argghh.

I have pointed out to the project manager that this will break
everything we have written so far. We will have to manually write all
the code to do the heavy lifting and shifting that DBIC does for us so
easily. It is likely to take us at least twice as long as it has already
taken us to redevelop the whole application to write the new database
abstraction layer and modify our application to use it.

Yes I can output the generated SQL from DBIC, but this does not satisfy
our DBA.

How do other developers cope with these people? Are there any DBAs on
here that embrace DBIC that can give me any advice?

Regards
Ian

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Jon Schutz

Re: How I hate (some) DBAs

Reply Threaded

Hi Ian,

Have you profiled your code to demonstrate that the calls to DBIC are an
insignificant component of the overall request cycle time, and as such
choosing a more "efficient" technology is a waste of time, effort and money?

I have used PL/SQL. Dark, terrible days, those.

Regards,

--
Jon Schutz My tech notes http://notes.jschutz.net
Chief Technology Officer http://www.youramigo.com
YourAmigo

Ian wrote:

> > Hi
> > We are just coming to the end of our development with a (very) tight
> > timescale and pretty much on-time due to the use of DBIC and Catalyst.
> >
> > Development was on MySQL but someone has now decided we have to run on
> > Oracle. OK, no problem we thought, it should migrate over with very few
> > issues since we are using DBIC.
> >
> > However, the Oracle DBA has thrown his teddy out of the pram and refuses
> > to accept that DBIC can generate efficient code, or code that he can
> > inspect, and insists that we use an 'API' that he will show us how to
> > create to use pl/sql statements. From what I have seen of it, it will
> > take me back about 10 years to where I was trying to generate my own DB
> > abstraction layer before I learned about CDBI and DBIC. Argghh.
> >
> > I have pointed out to the project manager that this will break
> > everything we have written so far. We will have to manually write all
> > the code to do the heavy lifting and shifting that DBIC does for us so
> > easily. It is likely to take us at least twice as long as it has already
> > taken us to redevelop the whole application to write the new database
> > abstraction layer and modify our application to use it.
> >
> > Yes I can output the generated SQL from DBIC, but this does not satisfy
> > our DBA.
> >
> > How do other developers cope with these people? Are there any DBAs on
> > here that embrace DBIC that can give me any advice?
> >
> > Regards
> > Ian
> >

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Dan Horne

Re: How I hate (some) DBAs

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Ian-7

There's no real advice from a technical point-of-view. Your DBA is being a
petty bureaucrat beacuse he can. It just makes him feel superior, but he's
just an arrogant prat

Dan
Ian said:

> Hi
> We are just coming to the end of our development with a (very) tight
> timescale and pretty much on-time due to the use of DBIC and Catalyst.
>
> Development was on MySQL but someone has now decided we have to run on
> Oracle. OK, no problem we thought, it should migrate over with very few
> issues since we are using DBIC.
>
> However, the Oracle DBA has thrown his teddy out of the pram and refuses
> to accept that DBIC can generate efficient code, or code that he can
> inspect, and insists that we use an 'API' that he will show us how to
> create to use pl/sql statements. From what I have seen of it, it will
> take me back about 10 years to where I was trying to generate my own DB
> abstraction layer before I learned about CDBI and DBIC. Argghh.
>
> I have pointed out to the project manager that this will break
> everything we have written so far. We will have to manually write all
> the code to do the heavy lifting and shifting that DBIC does for us so
> easily. It is likely to take us at least twice as long as it has already
> taken us to redevelop the whole application to write the new database
> abstraction layer and modify our application to use it.
>
> Yes I can output the generated SQL from DBIC, but this does not satisfy
> our DBA.
>
> How do other developers cope with these people? Are there any DBAs on
> here that embrace DBIC that can give me any advice?
>
> Regards
> Ian
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dbix-class
> IRC: irc.perl.org#dbix-class
> SVN: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/repos/bast/DBIx-Class/
> Searchable Archive:
> http://www.grokbase.com/group/dbix-class@...
>

Ian-7

Re: How I hate (some) DBAs

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Jon Schutz

Jon
I don't think the DBAs concern is about the overhead of DBIC, but the
efficiency of the database calls. i.e he wants to ensure that the SQL is
optimised and indexed correctly. He does not believe he can do that when
DBIC is generating the SQL because he 'has no visibility' of the code.

IMO he is doing premature optimisation in that the database is very
small in Oracle terms and he can always be given sight of the actual SQL
queries generated.

I suppose next he will say we can't use a high level language because he
can't be sure that optimising compilers generate absolutely the most
efficient machine code!

Regards
Ian

Jon Schutz wrote:

> Hi Ian,
>
> Have you profiled your code to demonstrate that the calls to DBIC are an
> insignificant component of the overall request cycle time, and as such
> choosing a more "efficient" technology is a waste of time, effort and money?
>
> I have used PL/SQL. Dark, terrible days, those.
>
> Regards,
>

Jon Schutz

Re: How I hate (some) DBAs

Reply Threaded

Let me rephrase, then:

Has your DBA profiled his Oracle set-up to demonstrate that the DBIC
database calls are such a significant component of database load that
they need to be optimised?

I'd be calling for some hard data on which a sensible decision can be made.

Regards,

--
Jon Schutz My tech notes http://notes.jschutz.net
Chief Technology Officer http://www.youramigo.com
YourAmigo

Ian wrote:

> > Jon
> > I don't think the DBAs concern is about the overhead of DBIC, but the
> > efficiency of the database calls. i.e he wants to ensure that the SQL is
> > optimised and indexed correctly. He does not believe he can do that when
> > DBIC is generating the SQL because he 'has no visibility' of the code.
> >
> > IMO he is doing premature optimisation in that the database is very
> > small in Oracle terms and he can always be given sight of the actual SQL
> > queries generated.
> >
> > I suppose next he will say we can't use a high level language because he
> > can't be sure that optimising compilers generate absolutely the most
> > efficient machine code!
> >
> > Regards
> > Ian
> >
> > Jon Schutz wrote:
>> >> Hi Ian,
>> >>
>> >> Have you profiled your code to demonstrate that the calls to DBIC

are an
>> >> insignificant component of the overall request cycle time, and as such
>> >> choosing a more "efficient" technology is a waste of time, effort and
>> >> money?
>> >>
>> >> I have used PL/SQL. Dark, terrible days, those.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>

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demerphq

Re: How I hate (some) DBAs

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Ian-7

2009/8/3 Ian <[hidden email]>:

Setting up a stored proc API is actually not a bad way to isolate the
application for the db and allow the DBA to focus on optimising the db
without impacting the ap or the DB. At least that is the theory.

>
> I have pointed out to the project manager that this will break everything we
> have written so far. We will have to manually write all the code to do the
> heavy lifting and shifting that DBIC does for us so easily. It is likely to
> take us at least twice as long as it has already taken us to redevelop the
> whole application to write the new database abstraction layer and modify our
> application to use it.
>
> Yes I can output the generated SQL from DBIC, but this does not satisfy our
> DBA.
>
> How do other developers cope with these people? Are there any DBAs on here
> that embrace DBIC that can give me any advice?

Get a new DBA. If you are dealing with someone who really thinks that
Oracle is not up to dynamic query loads then you probably arent going
to get far convincing them. OTOH, you might point out that with mysql
dealing with issues from dynamic queries is relatively straight
forward, so why should oracle have issues with it.

Yves

--
perl -Mre=debug -e "/just|another|perl|hacker/"

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John Napiorkowski

Re: How I hate (some) DBAs

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Ian-7

----- Original Message ----

> From: Ian <[hidden email]>
> To: Class user and developer list <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, August 3, 2009 1:49:03 AM
> Subject: [Dbix-class] How I hate (some) DBAs
>
> Hi
> We are just coming to the end of our development with a (very) tight timescale
> and pretty much on-time due to the use of DBIC and Catalyst.
>
> Development was on MySQL but someone has now decided we have to run on Oracle.
> OK, no problem we thought, it should migrate over with very few issues since we
> are using DBIC.
>
> However, the Oracle DBA has thrown his teddy out of the pram and refuses to
> accept that DBIC can generate efficient code, or code that he can inspect, and
> insists that we use an 'API' that he will show us how to create to use pl/sql
> statements. From what I have seen of it, it will take me back about 10 years to
> where I was trying to generate my own DB abstraction layer before I learned
> about CDBI and DBIC. Argghh.

Is your application going to run in a shared Oracle cluster? That could account for
the DBA being very touchy, since s/he might be worried about how the load of your
application will affect the other applications. If so, try to demostrate load and
how you system impacts the site.

I can understand the whole "stored procedures are the API" thing. It was a
pretty normal way to introduce a layer between the database and the application
and would give the DBA more control.

Is your DBA under fire? The economy is not so good and people are looking to
make sure they have work to do...

>
> I have pointed out to the project manager that this will break everything we
> have written so far. We will have to manually write all the code to do the heavy
> lifting and shifting that DBIC does for us so easily. It is likely to take us at
> least twice as long as it has already taken us to redevelop the whole
> application to write the new database abstraction layer and modify our
> application to use it.
>
> Yes I can output the generated SQL from DBIC, but this does not satisfy our DBA.
>
> How do other developers cope with these people? Are there any DBAs on here that
> embrace DBIC that can give me any advice?
>
> Regards
> Ian
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dbix-class
> IRC: irc.perl.org#dbix-class
> SVN: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/repos/bast/DBIx-Class/
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Ian-7

Re: How I hate (some) DBAs

Reply Threaded

John Napiorkowski wrote:

>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Ian <[hidden email]>
>> To: Class user and developer list <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Monday, August 3, 2009 1:49:03 AM
>> Subject: [Dbix-class] How I hate (some) DBAs
>>
>> Hi
>> We are just coming to the end of our development with a (very) tight timescale
>> and pretty much on-time due to the use of DBIC and Catalyst.
>>
>> Development was on MySQL but someone has now decided we have to run on Oracle.
>> OK, no problem we thought, it should migrate over with very few issues since we
>> are using DBIC.
>>
>> However, the Oracle DBA has thrown his teddy out of the pram and refuses to
>> accept that DBIC can generate efficient code, or code that he can inspect, and
>> insists that we use an 'API' that he will show us how to create to use pl/sql
>> statements. From what I have seen of it, it will take me back about 10 years to
>> where I was trying to generate my own DB abstraction layer before I learned
>> about CDBI and DBIC. Argghh.
>
> Is your application going to run in a shared Oracle cluster? That could account for
> the DBA being very touchy, since s/he might be worried about how the load of your
> application will affect the other applications. If so, try to demostrate load and
> how you system impacts the site.
>

Yes I think this is part of the problem

> I can understand the whole "stored procedures are the API" thing. It was a
> pretty normal way to introduce a layer between the database and the application
> and would give the DBA more control.
>
Control is the word here I think.

> Is your DBA under fire? The economy is not so good and people are looking to
> make sure they have work to do...
No, I just think from talking to others that he is a difficult person to
work with!

>
>> I have pointed out to the project manager that this will break everything we
>> have written so far. We will have to manually write all the code to do the heavy
>> lifting and shifting that DBIC does for us so easily. It is likely to take us at
>> least twice as long as it has already taken us to redevelop the whole
>> application to write the new database abstraction layer and modify our
>> application to use it.
>>
>> Yes I can output the generated SQL from DBIC, but this does not satisfy our DBA.
>>
>> How do other developers cope with these people? Are there any DBAs on here that
>> embrace DBIC that can give me any advice?
>>
>> Regards
>> Ian
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> List: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dbix-class
>> IRC: irc.perl.org#dbix-class
>> SVN: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/repos/bast/DBIx-Class/
>> Searchable Archive: http://www.grokbase.com/group/dbix-class@...
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List: http://lists.scsys.co.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dbix-class
> IRC: irc.perl.org#dbix-class
> SVN: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/repos/bast/DBIx-Class/
> Searchable Archive: http://www.grokbase.com/group/dbix-class@...
>
>

Ian-7

Re: How I hate (some) DBAs

Reply Threaded

In reply to this post by Dan Horne

Dan Horne wrote:

> There's no real advice from a technical point-of-view. Your DBA is being a
> petty bureaucrat beacuse he can. It just makes him feel superior, but he's
> just an arrogant prat
>
> Dan
> Ian said:
>> Hi
>> We are just coming to the end of our development with a (very) tight
>> timescale and pretty much on-time due to the use of DBIC and Catalyst.
>>
>> Development was on MySQL but someone has now decided we have to run on
>> Oracle. OK, no problem we thought, it should migrate over with very few
>> issues since we are using DBIC.
>>
>> However, the Oracle DBA has thrown his teddy out of the pram and refuses
>> to accept that DBIC can generate efficient code, or code that he can
>> inspect, and insists that we use an 'API' that he will show us how to
>> create to use pl/sql statements. From what I have seen of it, it will
>> take me back about 10 years to where I was trying to generate my own DB
>> abstraction layer before I learned about CDBI and DBIC. Argghh.
>>
>> I have pointed out to the project manager that this will break
>> everything we have written so far. We will have to manually write all
>> the code to do the heavy lifting and shifting that DBIC does for us so
>> easily. It is likely to take us at least twice as long as it has already
>> taken us to redevelop the whole application to write the new database
>> abstraction layer and modify our application to use it.
>>
>> Yes I can output the generated SQL from DBIC, but this does not satisfy
>> our DBA.
>>
>> How do other developers cope with these people? Are there any DBAs on
>> here that embrace DBIC that can give me any advice?
>>
>> Regards
>> Ian
>>

Thanks everyone for your advice (or at least your support).

I have documented my objection to the approach giving what I think are
realistic estimates on how much extra work it will take us to change
(twice the time it has taken us to develop the app in the first place).
I have also documented my technical objections that it will be less
flexible to change, more difficult to test and support etc.

I think it has struck home (or at least made it clear that we can't do
this in the timescales allowed) and now there is a possible move towards
SQL Server but keeping DBIC.

So I think a reasonable outcome.

Thanks
Ian

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