Effects questions

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Markus Meyer
Effects questions
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Hi,

I'm currently working through the effects for the 1.3. release. Can
everyone who knows about one of the following enlighten me (those are
just questions, if you have written any of these effects please don't
take offense):

Amplify: Didn't we have a patch for 1.2 which changes "Don't allow
clipping" to "Allow clipping"?

Compressor: Why doesn't "apply gain after clipping" normalize to 0 db?

Equalization: Is the Equalizer now usable after the fixes or is there
still work to do?

FFT Filter: Does this have practical uses over the use of the Equalizer?

Leveler: What is the reason to use the leveller rather than the compressor?

Noise Removal: It has been discussed that the default value for noise
removal is too high. I see that now a lower value is the default. Is
this correct? Should we decrease the range in which noise removal can be
done, or should we provide the user with the possibility to set even
lower values?

Normalize: What is the point of normalizing to -3 db instead of 0 db?
Should I make this configurable? If yes, why should -3 db be the default?

That's all for now.


Markus



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Alexandre Prokoudine
Re: Effects questions
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On 8/8/05, Markus Meyer <meyer@...> wrote:

> Noise Removal: It has been discussed that the default value for noise
> removal is too high. I see that now a lower value is the default. Is
> this correct? Should we decrease the range in which noise removal can be
> done, or should we provide the user with the possibility to set even
> lower values?

I would say that sometimes even the minimum value is too much ;)

Alexandre


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mgbrubeck
Re: Effects questions
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Markus Meyer wrote:

> Amplify: Didn't we have a patch for 1.2 which changes "Don't allow
> clipping" to "Allow clipping"?

There's a patch in Bugzilla:

  http://audacity.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=31

Feel free to apply it.

> Normalize: What is the point of normalizing to -3 db instead of 0 db?
> Should I make this configurable? If yes, why should -3 db be the
> default?

I think the original idea was to allow additional mixing of normalized
tracks.  I don't know what the default should be.


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Richard Ash (audacity-help)
Re: Effects questions
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On Mon, 2005-08-08 at 08:22 -0700, Matt Brubeck wrote:
> > Normalize: What is the point of normalizing to -3 db instead of 0 db?
> > Should I make this configurable? If yes, why should -3 db be the
> > default?
I've always found normalise confusing, because I expected it to be the
same as Amplify with new maximum amplitude 0dB.
On that basis setting the default at 0dB seems to make sense, and it's
debatable how much a preference adds given that you can normalise to any
amplitude via the Amplify menu.

The alternative approach, taken by the Normalise command-line utility
(http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~cvaill/normalize/) is to say that
normalise should be a perceptual (volume-based) adjustment, and so use
the RMS value of the signal, in which case you need to adjust to a much
lower level (-12dBFS in Normalize). This makes files sound the same
loudness, but is much more complex and can cause clipping if you're not
careful. It might be nice in the long run but I don't think we can
implement it now.

So in summary, I'd set the normalise level to 0dB (people can always
turn the track gain sliders down), and not worry about a preference.
Other people will probably disagree with me.

Richard Ash



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Vaughan Johnson
Re: Effects questions
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Markus Meyer wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm currently working through the effects for the 1.3. release. Can
> everyone who knows about one of the following enlighten me (those are
> just questions, if you have written any of these effects please don't
> take offense):
>
> Amplify: Didn't we have a patch for 1.2 which changes "Don't allow
> clipping" to "Allow clipping"?


I think it should be in there. Never saw the patch, but this kept
getting postponed, I think for translator reasons, but 1.3 is a major
release.


>
> Compressor: Why doesn't "apply gain after clipping" normalize to 0 db?
>
> Equalization: Is the Equalizer now usable after the fixes or is there
> still work to do?
>
> FFT Filter: Does this have practical uses over the use of the Equalizer?
>
> Leveler: What is the reason to use the leveller rather than the
> compressor?
>
> Noise Removal: It has been discussed that the default value for noise
> removal is too high. I see that now a lower value is the default. Is
> this correct? Should we decrease the range in which noise removal can
> be done, or should we provide the user with the possibility to set
> even lower values?



I vote for greater range, i.e., expanding the lower end of the range and
thereby moving the default at center. I find I *always* use the minimum.


>
> Normalize: What is the point of normalizing to -3 db instead of 0 db?
> Should I make this configurable? If yes, why should -3 db be the default?


My understanding is that Dominic set it to -3dB as a good default for
individual tracks such that mixes don't clip, and that's proven true in
my usage. However, I think most other audio software uses "normalize" to
mean 0dB and there are occasional questions on audacity-help about why
our Normalize doesn't mean 0dB. We talked about adding a "remove DC
offset" checkbox to Amplify, but I think it makes more sense to combine
the two effects, i.e., move Amplify functionality into Normalize, and
maybe add 2 or 3 radio buttons ("...to 0dB", "...to -3dB", and maybe
"...to -6dB" -- which I find useful for some of my hotter tracks). If
everybody agrees (especially Dominic!), I'm happy to do the work.

-Vaughan



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Vaughan Johnson
Re: Effects questions
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In reply to this post by Alexandre Prokoudine
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

>On 8/8/05, Markus Meyer <meyer@...> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Noise Removal: It has been discussed that the default value for noise
>>removal is too high. I see that now a lower value is the default. Is
>>this correct? Should we decrease the range in which noise removal can be
>>done, or should we provide the user with the possibility to set even
>>lower values?
>>    
>>
>
>I would say that sometimes even the minimum value is too much ;)
>
>Alexandre
>
>
>  
>

I agree. I wrote that I always use the minimum, but that's often too
much and I just then do without any Noise Removal. There's been recent
discussion, I think on audacity-users, about how people reduce the
amplitude of the noise region before getting the profile in order to
effectively get a lower minimum on the range, so I think several people
have had this problem

-Vaughan


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Markus Meyer
Re: Effects questions
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Vaughan Johnson schrieb:

>>
>> Amplify: Didn't we have a patch for 1.2 which changes "Don't allow
>> clipping" to "Allow clipping"?
>
>
> I think it should be in there. Never saw the patch, but this kept
> getting postponed, I think for translator reasons, but 1.3 is a major
> release.

I have a patch ready for this locally, but I cannot connect to the
sf.net servers at the moment. I'll try to commit this later.


>> Noise Removal: It has been discussed that the default value for noise
>> removal is too high. I see that now a lower value is the default. Is
>> this correct? Should we decrease the range in which noise removal can
>> be done, or should we provide the user with the possibility to set
>> even lower values?
>
> I vote for greater range, i.e., expanding the lower end of the range
> and thereby moving the default at center. I find I *always* use the
> minimum.

I never really used noise removal. It would be very helpful if you could
change the lower end of the range and then make the default value
something that makes sense for a normal "cassette-tape"-type signal. I
know that it is probably hard to come up with a one-size-fits-all
default value in this case, but since we agree that the default is way
too much, why not just make the new default a tenth or fifth of the old
value or so...

>> Normalize: What is the point of normalizing to -3 db instead of 0 db?
>> Should I make this configurable? If yes, why should -3 db be the
>> default?
>
> My understanding is that Dominic set it to -3dB as a good default for
> individual tracks such that mixes don't clip, and that's proven true
> in my usage. However, I think most other audio software uses
> "normalize" to mean 0dB and there are occasional questions on
> audacity-help about why our Normalize doesn't mean 0dB. We talked
> about adding a "remove DC offset" checkbox to Amplify, but I think it
> makes more sense to combine the two effects, i.e., move Amplify
> functionality into Normalize, and maybe add 2 or 3 radio buttons
> ("...to 0dB", "...to -3dB", and maybe "...to -6dB" -- which I find
> useful for some of my hotter tracks). If everybody agrees (especially
> Dominic!), I'm happy to do the work.

It's fine with me that they are two separate effects, although they
share some functionality. As of now, most people who choose "Normalize"
just want "Amplify" with the default settings (the DC offset thingy is
really not needed most of the time), but they don't find it. I think
"Normalize" should just normalize to 0 db, -3db or -6db (choosable by
radiobuttons), with the default being 0 db, and the Amplify effect is
fine as it is today.


Markus



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Anthony Airon Oetzmann
Re: Effects questions
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On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:22:07 -0700, Vaughan Johnson wrote:


>My understanding is that Dominic set it to -3dB as a good default for
>individual tracks such that mixes don't clip, and that's proven true in
>my usage. However, I think most other audio software uses "normalize" to
>mean 0dB and there are occasional questions on audacity-help about why
>our Normalize doesn't mean 0dB. We talked about adding a "remove DC
>offset" checkbox to Amplify, but I think it makes more sense to combine
>the two effects, i.e., move Amplify functionality into Normalize, and
>maybe add 2 or 3 radio buttons ("...to 0dB", "...to -3dB", and maybe
>"...to -6dB" -- which I find useful for some of my hotter tracks). If
>everybody agrees (especially Dominic!), I'm happy to do the work.

When the sum clips, I'm shure people would like to know by how much.

The actual maximum level of amix is not shown anywhere in dB. The graphical
output of the meter is all there is and it's not enough if you want to tell
by how much it clipped. At the very least, I suggest you place a dB value
in the meter that holds the maximum level played so far.

Should it be possible, and it seems to be a lot easier doing this in
floating-point math, indicate with a RED background under the values, by
how much the mix clips, so people can turn down all faders of their mix by
that amount. Double clicking on a clipping value could do that for the
user, which would be kinda convenient.

The question is, where should that numerical indicator be placed. Right of
the meter is my suggestion, just right of the 0dB mark of the meters. You
could also place them in the meters.

Is this useful?

 Tony



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Markus Meyer
Re: Effects questions
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Markus Meyer schrieb:

> Vaughan Johnson schrieb:
>
>>>
>>> Amplify: Didn't we have a patch for 1.2 which changes "Don't allow
>>> clipping" to "Allow clipping"?
>>
>>
>>
>> I think it should be in there. Never saw the patch, but this kept
>> getting postponed, I think for translator reasons, but 1.3 is a major
>> release.
>
>
> I have a patch ready for this locally, but I cannot connect to the
> sf.net servers at the moment. I'll try to commit this later.

Commited.

Checking in effects/Amplify.cpp;
/cvsroot/audacity/audacity-src/src/effects/Amplify.cpp,v  <--  Amplify.cpp
new revision: 1.27; previous revision: 1.26
done


Markus



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Markus Meyer
Re: Effects questions
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Tony,

I proposed before the creation of a master gain control, which would
address this problem.

There could be an automatic mode and an manual mode. In automatic mode
(switched on by default to assist newbies), the "Master Gain" would be
automatically decreased as to remove the possibility of clipping. It is
debatable if this should be checked while playing only or after every
change (effects and so on), or at least when exporting/saving the
project. I think that would help many newbies to find the correct gains
for their projects. Additionally, this would make a better user
interface, because decreasing the overall loudness of the mix by
decreasing 10 controls as it is now is really bad UI design (and you
effectively have to decrease the gains everytime you add a new track).

In any case (and as a minimum proposal), there could at least be a
button "auto-adjust master gain" in the toolbar next to the master gain
control which would set the master gain to a value so the mix gets 0 db
(or another value settable in the preferences). This would also be a
good alternative to the "Normalize" effect because it doesn't change the
samples.


Markus

Anthony Airon Oetzmann schrieb:

>On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:22:07 -0700, Vaughan Johnson wrote:
>
>
>  
>
>>My understanding is that Dominic set it to -3dB as a good default for
>>individual tracks such that mixes don't clip, and that's proven true in
>>my usage. However, I think most other audio software uses "normalize" to
>>mean 0dB and there are occasional questions on audacity-help about why
>>our Normalize doesn't mean 0dB. We talked about adding a "remove DC
>>offset" checkbox to Amplify, but I think it makes more sense to combine
>>the two effects, i.e., move Amplify functionality into Normalize, and
>>maybe add 2 or 3 radio buttons ("...to 0dB", "...to -3dB", and maybe
>>"...to -6dB" -- which I find useful for some of my hotter tracks). If
>>everybody agrees (especially Dominic!), I'm happy to do the work.
>>    
>>
>
>When the sum clips, I'm shure people would like to know by how much.
>
>The actual maximum level of amix is not shown anywhere in dB. The graphical
>output of the meter is all there is and it's not enough if you want to tell
>by how much it clipped. At the very least, I suggest you place a dB value
>in the meter that holds the maximum level played so far.
>
>Should it be possible, and it seems to be a lot easier doing this in
>floating-point math, indicate with a RED background under the values, by
>how much the mix clips, so people can turn down all faders of their mix by
>that amount. Double clicking on a clipping value could do that for the
>user, which would be kinda convenient.
>
>The question is, where should that numerical indicator be placed. Right of
>the meter is my suggestion, just right of the 0dB mark of the meters. You
>could also place them in the meters.
>
>Is this useful?
>
> Tony
>
>
>
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>
>  
>



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l_d_allan
Re: Effects questions
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> Leveler: What is the reason to use the leveller rather than the
compressor?

Summary:
problems with the compressor effect

Details:
<alert comment="not an audio engineer">

Earlier in the year, I had heard that there were flaws in the
Compressor effect, which I verified with some sine wave tests (see
attachment with screen shots ... spikes and clipping at the start).

This problem with the Compressor effect seemed to be low priority, and
it didn't seem like any progress was being made on a fix. Therefore, I
implemented the simplified "Leveler" effect, which was initially to be
strictly for CleanSpeech.  At that time, CleanSpeech was a "spin-off"
of Audacity and specialized for speech processing (rather than being
more of a "mode" like it is now). "Leveling" is perhaps the most
important effect that CleanSpeech provides, so I considered it high
priority.

I am not at all an audio engineer, but the Leveler effect has
something of a "banana shaped" amplification curve with six adjustment
bands. There is an end-user specified "inflection point" below which
signals are rolled off. Above this inflection point (e.g. -55db), the
signal is amplified for a range, and then rolled off to cut back on
the loudest signals. This is a relatively fast effect since no FFT is
involved, so "lighter" and "heaver" leveling is accomplished by making
multiple passes to "smooth" the transitions between the bands.

I used two test files:
1hz sine wave at 0db at 192,000 sampling rate to be able to see what
was going on

50hz sine wave at 0db at 22050 sampling rate to be able to hear what
was going on

Here is a link to these files, and before/after screen shots of using
the Compressor effect at its default settings.

http://cleanspeech.sf.net/misc/Leveler_Compressor_Tests.zip

</alert>




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l_d_allan
Re: Effects questions
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> Noise Removal: It has been discussed that the default value for
noise
> removal is too high. I see that now a lower value is the default. Is
> this correct? Should we decrease the range in which noise removal
can be
> done, or should we provide the user with the possibility to set even
> lower values?

<alert comment="not an audio engineer ... may not know what I am
talking about">

Audacity 1.2.3 has 15 selectable "levels", with a default of 8 in the
middle.

My experience is that level 8 is almost invariably too strong, and
level 1 is often too strong. As part of CleanSpeech development, the
range was increased from 0 to 30 (zero indicates skip effect for
batch/script processing) and each level was halved in strength. Thus,
the "new" level 30 is the same as the "old" level 15, and the "new"
level 1 is half the strength of the "old" level 1.

These changes were put into CVS by James Crook when CleanSpeech was
merged with the baseline Audacity 1.3.x beta code back in mid June.

A case can be made to half the level 1 again, with a range of zero to
sixty. Or perhaps have a range of zero to one hundred, with level one
being about 1/10th of what it is in 1.2.3

original in ver 1.2.3
if (plog[i] < m_noiseGate[i] + (mLevel / 2.0))


revised for CleanSpeech
if (plog[i] < m_noiseGate[i] + (mLevel / 4.0))


alternative for level 1 to be 1/10 of ver 1.2.3
if (plog[i] < m_noiseGate[i] + (mLevel / 20.0))

> Normalize: What is the point of normalizing to -3 db instead of 0
db?
> Should I make this configurable? If yes, why should -3 db be the
default?

My impression is that -3 db is a "reference level" for calibration
purposes and (used to be?) the optimal recording level for maximum
frequency range and minimum distortion.

My personal preference is -1db. -3db seems too low and 0db seems too
high.

</alert>




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andyb-2
Re: Effects questions
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Lynn,

I was not able to DL your zip File, so I don't know about the details of
your problems.  However, referring to the dynamic range Compressor
Effect, are you aware of Build 1.2.4?

So far I've used build 1.2.4. to Compress about 20 hours of Classical
music.  I am _very_ satisfied with the results, and plan on much more
continued use of it.

This includes compressing as much as a 50dB dynamic range to a 20 dB DR
    (using: Threshold 50 dB, Slope 2.5:1, and Attack Time 0.1 sec).

=> Very Importantly:  Uncheck "Apply gain after compressing"
    This secondary function operates very badly:
      It produces severe clipping on crescendos.

=> Instead use the Amplify effect, and be sure to check
       "Don't Allow Clipping"
    (I then may reduce the level by up to 3 dB.)

There is a minor imperfection in applying Compress as above:
The actual attack time is not zero, so on a very abrupt crescendo, a
brief overshoot may occur. This only occurs rarely with actual music
material, but when it does it's generally about 1 to 3 dB (although I've
seen as much as 6 dB).

One can get a larger overshoot effect using a test tone:
For example, I used a 400 Hz triangle wave that has an abrupt 24 dB
step, going from -24 dB to 0 dB from one cycle to the next.  I used
Compress, with a 2:1 slope, and Amplify as above.  This resulted in
a 12 dB overshoot that settled out in about 40 msec.

There is a similar problem on a large, sudden (less than 500 msec)
decrease in level: undershoot can occur.  Although I've rarely (and
barely) noticed it with actual music, this can be readily observed using
a abrupt step decrease in a test tone.  (The recovery time is dependent
on the step dB decease, and can be up to 400 msec.)

=== === === ===
Let me emphasize that the Compressor Effect in 1.2.4 works _far better_
than that of other products that I have tested, including commercial.

AndyB

Lynn Allan wrote:

> * Replies will be sent through Spamex to audacity-devel@...
> * For additional info click -> http://www.spamex.com/i/?v=6850724
>
>
>>Leveler: What is the reason to use the leveller rather than the
>
> compressor?
>
> Summary:
> problems with the compressor effect
>
> Details:
> <alert comment="not an audio engineer">
>
> Earlier in the year, I had heard that there were flaws in the
> Compressor effect, which I verified with some sine wave tests (see
> attachment with screen shots ... spikes and clipping at the start).
>
> This problem with the Compressor effect seemed to be low priority, and
> it didn't seem like any progress was being made on a fix. Therefore, I
> implemented the simplified "Leveler" effect, which was initially to be
> strictly for CleanSpeech.  At that time, CleanSpeech was a "spin-off"
> of Audacity and specialized for speech processing (rather than being
> more of a "mode" like it is now). "Leveling" is perhaps the most
> important effect that CleanSpeech provides, so I considered it high
> priority.
>
> I am not at all an audio engineer, but the Leveler effect has
> something of a "banana shaped" amplification curve with six adjustment
> bands. There is an end-user specified "inflection point" below which
> signals are rolled off. Above this inflection point (e.g. -55db), the
> signal is amplified for a range, and then rolled off to cut back on
> the loudest signals. This is a relatively fast effect since no FFT is
> involved, so "lighter" and "heaver" leveling is accomplished by making
> multiple passes to "smooth" the transitions between the bands.
>
> I used two test files:
> 1hz sine wave at 0db at 192,000 sampling rate to be able to see what
> was going on
>
> 50hz sine wave at 0db at 22050 sampling rate to be able to hear what
> was going on
>
> Here is a link to these files, and before/after screen shots of using
> the Compressor effect at its default settings.
>
> http://cleanspeech.sf.net/misc/Leveler_Compressor_Tests.zip
>
> </alert>
>
>
>
>
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Markus Meyer
Re: Effects questions
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AndyB@... schrieb:

> => Very Importantly:  Uncheck "Apply gain after compressing"
>    This secondary function operates very badly:
>      It produces severe clipping on crescendos.

I've noticed this before. This problem persist even with the compressor
fixes recently commited to CVS HEAD. Seems that this is a real bug.


Markus



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andyb-2
Re: Effects questions
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Markus Meyer observed:

> AndyB@... schrieb:
>
>> => Very Importantly:  Uncheck "Apply gain after compressing"
>>    This secondary function operates very badly:
>>      It produces severe clipping on crescendos.
>
>
> I've noticed this before. This problem persist even with the compressor
> fixes recently commited to CVS HEAD. Seems that this is a real bug.
> Markus

Yes, a real bug. I would be happy with replacing the current function
with "Apply Amplify Effect after Compressing", using whatever parameters
had been set for Amplify. E.g.: No Clipping checked, and 0 dB entered.
This "automatic" Amplify would use the same range as selected for
Compress. (This should be an entirely "safe" approach, even for beginners.)

Then, if I ever wanted to further adjust the waveform, it would be easy
to tweak it by using Amplify manually.

I tend not to use Normalize, as frequently a track may have a nearly
instantaneous peak that's, say, 3 dB above all the other (frequent)
peaks.  Using current Normalize would place these frequent peaks at -6
to -7 dB dB.

=== Start of long-winded part  ===
The actual setting of the level for a track is a bit more of an art, or
personal judgment, than a science.  Some pieces have much of thiner
material at a "full level", while others may have only one or two brief
crescendos.

Consider a 60-track mp3 CD for car-highway use, having a wide range of
material, and where I want, typically, a compressed dynamic range of 20
dB. If I use Amplify-0dB-NoClip for all tracks, and, while traveling,
adjust the volume once for an appropriate listening level, some tracks
will sound significantly louder than others.

Accordingly, I am considering the following approach:
    "Instantaneous" peak:   0 dB
     Brief Crescendos:    -3 dB
     Basic Peak level:    -6 dB
     Low end level:      -26 dB

I would then, in principal, adjust the volume such that Basic Peak level
material results in an an appropriate listening level (what this level
is depends on whether my spouse is present).  I would then have the
occasional crescendo going to -3 db.  I don't hear, nor care about, the
Instantaneous peak.
=== ===

AndyB






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