EPSG:3785

6 messages Options
Embed this post
Permalink
bartvde

EPSG:3785

Reply Threaded More More options
Print post
Permalink
Hi list,

does anyone know what happened to EPSG:3785 (the Google Maps projection)?

It used to be in the EPSG database, but now it's gone, and the only thing
I can find is in the EPSG database SQL scripts:

INSERT INTO epsg_deprecation VALUES ( 1067,
'2009-02-10',
2008.114,
'Coordinate Reference System',
3785,
3857,
'OGP revised its approach to description of Popular Visualisation CRS.' );

TIA.

Best regards,
Bart



_______________________________________________
MetaCRS mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/metacrs
Christopher Schmidt-2

Re: EPSG:3785

Reply Threaded More More options
Print post
Permalink
On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 03:17:31PM +0200, [hidden email] wrote:
> Hi list,
>
> does anyone know what happened to EPSG:3785 (the Google Maps projection)?
>
> It used to be in the EPSG database, but now it's gone, and the only thing
> I can find is in the EPSG database SQL scripts:

Right. It's now 3857 instead of 3785. So far as I can tell, nothing about
how it's represented or handled in WKT or in any other way changed. (Though
perhaps they decided to remove the snarky comment in the description.)

-- Chris

> INSERT INTO epsg_deprecation VALUES ( 1067,
> '2009-02-10',
> 2008.114,
> 'Coordinate Reference System',
> 3785,
> 3857,
> 'OGP revised its approach to description of Popular Visualisation CRS.' );
>
> TIA.
>
> Best regards,
> Bart
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MetaCRS mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/metacrs

--
Christopher Schmidt
MetaCarta
_______________________________________________
MetaCRS mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/metacrs
Mikael Rittri

RE: EPSG:3785

Reply Threaded More More options
Print post
Permalink

Chris wrote:

> It's now 3857 instead of 3785. So far as I can tell, nothing about
> how it's represented or handled in WKT or in any other way changed.

Well, there are some differences.
 
The old EPSG:3785 had a geodetic datum whose reference ellipsoid
was a perfect sphere, and the projection method was "Mercator
(Spherical)",
coord. op. method code 1026, which apparantly is meant to be applied
only
to spheres.
  However, EPSG suggested the datum shift +towgs84=0,0,0 to transform
between the
sphere and the WGS84 ellipsoid, and this would change the latitudes,
which is not
what Google does.

The new EPSG:3857 has WGS84 as geodetic datum, and the projection method
is
now "Popular Visualisation Pseudo Mercator", coord. op. method code
1024,
which is permitted to use on an non-spherical ellipsoid.  
The formulas are the same as for "Mercator (Spherical)", but the
the radius of the internally used sphere is by definition the same
as the equatorial radius of the ellipsoid.

This should give some differences in WKT.  You would see a
true ellipsoid instead of a sphere in the datum definition,
for example.  But I am not sure if any GIS companies support the
"Popular Visualisation Pseudo Mercator" as a projection method in WKT.

--
Mikael Rittri
Carmenta AB
Sweden
www.carmenta.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Christopher
Schmidt
Sent: den 7 oktober 2009 15:22
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [MetaCRS] EPSG:3785

On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 03:17:31PM +0200, [hidden email] wrote:
> Hi list,
>
> does anyone know what happened to EPSG:3785 (the Google Maps
projection)?
>
> It used to be in the EPSG database, but now it's gone, and the only
> thing I can find is in the EPSG database SQL scripts:

Right. It's now 3857 instead of 3785. So far as I can tell, nothing
about how it's represented or handled in WKT or in any other way
changed. (Though perhaps they decided to remove the snarky comment in
the description.)

-- Chris

> INSERT INTO epsg_deprecation VALUES ( 1067, '2009-02-10', 2008.114,
> 'Coordinate Reference System', 3785, 3857, 'OGP revised its approach
> to description of Popular Visualisation CRS.' );
>
> TIA.
>
> Best regards,
> Bart
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MetaCRS mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/metacrs

--
Christopher Schmidt
MetaCarta
_______________________________________________
MetaCRS mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/metacrs
_______________________________________________
MetaCRS mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/metacrs
Norm Olsen

RE: EPSG:3785

Reply Threaded More More options
Print post
Permalink
Hello All . . .

As of revision 1619 (15 Sept 2009) CS_MAP now supports the Popular "Visualisation Pseudo Mercator" projection.  A coordinate reference system definition named "WGS84.PseudoMercator" is now included in the dictionaries.  It is referenced to the WGS84 datum, as its name implies.  All other parameters are equivalent to that specified by EPSG::3857.

Norm

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mikael Rittri
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 7:45 AM
To: Christopher Schmidt; [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [MetaCRS] EPSG:3785


Chris wrote:

> It's now 3857 instead of 3785. So far as I can tell, nothing about
> how it's represented or handled in WKT or in any other way changed.

Well, there are some differences.
 
The old EPSG:3785 had a geodetic datum whose reference ellipsoid
was a perfect sphere, and the projection method was "Mercator
(Spherical)",
coord. op. method code 1026, which apparantly is meant to be applied
only
to spheres.
  However, EPSG suggested the datum shift +towgs84=0,0,0 to transform
between the
sphere and the WGS84 ellipsoid, and this would change the latitudes,
which is not
what Google does.

The new EPSG:3857 has WGS84 as geodetic datum, and the projection method
is
now "Popular Visualisation Pseudo Mercator", coord. op. method code
1024,
which is permitted to use on an non-spherical ellipsoid.  
The formulas are the same as for "Mercator (Spherical)", but the
the radius of the internally used sphere is by definition the same
as the equatorial radius of the ellipsoid.

This should give some differences in WKT.  You would see a
true ellipsoid instead of a sphere in the datum definition,
for example.  But I am not sure if any GIS companies support the
"Popular Visualisation Pseudo Mercator" as a projection method in WKT.

--
Mikael Rittri
Carmenta AB
Sweden
www.carmenta.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Christopher
Schmidt
Sent: den 7 oktober 2009 15:22
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [MetaCRS] EPSG:3785

On Wed, Oct 07, 2009 at 03:17:31PM +0200, [hidden email] wrote:
> Hi list,
>
> does anyone know what happened to EPSG:3785 (the Google Maps
projection)?
>
> It used to be in the EPSG database, but now it's gone, and the only
> thing I can find is in the EPSG database SQL scripts:

Right. It's now 3857 instead of 3785. So far as I can tell, nothing
about how it's represented or handled in WKT or in any other way
changed. (Though perhaps they decided to remove the snarky comment in
the description.)

-- Chris

> INSERT INTO epsg_deprecation VALUES ( 1067, '2009-02-10', 2008.114,
> 'Coordinate Reference System', 3785, 3857, 'OGP revised its approach
> to description of Popular Visualisation CRS.' );
>
> TIA.
>
> Best regards,
> Bart
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MetaCRS mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/metacrs

--
Christopher Schmidt
MetaCarta
_______________________________________________
MetaCRS mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/metacrs
_______________________________________________
MetaCRS mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/metacrs
_______________________________________________
MetaCRS mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/metacrs
Frank Warmerdam

Re: EPSG:3785

Reply Threaded More More options
Print post
Permalink
Norm Olsen wrote:
> Hello All . . .
>
> As of revision 1619 (15 Sept 2009) CS_MAP now supports the Popular "Visualisation Pseudo Mercator" projection.  A coordinate reference system definition named "WGS84.PseudoMercator" is now included in the dictionaries.  It is referenced to the WGS84 datum, as its name implies.  All other parameters are equivalent to that specified by EPSG::3857.

Folks,

I would really appreciate it if we as MetaCRS could come to some reasonable
firm conclusion on a recommendation for how this coordinate system should
be represented.

I asked here before and there were various responses with approaches in
CS_MAP, ArcGIS, Geotoolkit and others but I don't feel like we reached any
conclusion as to a recommendation.

I have to admit I am leery of treating this coordinate system as a special
projection method.  It is just normal mercator except that we want to
use different ellipsoidal parameters in the projection calculation than
we want to use in geographic interpretation of the lat/long (which we
wish to treat as WGS84).  I'm pretty sure there are several other projections
that operate similarly in common scientific usage.

For what it's worth, I'm using these representations which
takes advantage of the my extension hack.  This is clearly useless
as an interoperable representation.

PROJCS["Popular Visualisation CRS / Mercator (deprecated)",
     GEOGCS["Popular Visualisation CRS",
         DATUM["Popular_Visualisation_Datum",
             SPHEROID["Popular Visualisation Sphere",6378137,0,
                 AUTHORITY["EPSG","7059"]],
             TOWGS84[0,0,0,0,0,0,0],
             AUTHORITY["EPSG","6055"]],
         PRIMEM["Greenwich",0,
             AUTHORITY["EPSG","8901"]],
         UNIT["degree",0.01745329251994328,
             AUTHORITY["EPSG","9122"]],
         AUTHORITY["EPSG","4055"]],
     UNIT["metre",1,
         AUTHORITY["EPSG","9001"]],
     PROJECTION["Mercator_1SP"],
     PARAMETER["central_meridian",0],
     PARAMETER["scale_factor",1],
     PARAMETER["false_easting",0],
     PARAMETER["false_northing",0],
     EXTENSION["PROJ4","+proj=merc +a=6378137 +b=6378137 +lat_ts=0.0 +lon_0=0.0 +
x_0=0.0 +y_0=0 +k=1.0 +units=m +nadgrids=@null +wktext  +no_defs"],
     AUTHORITY["EPSG","3785"],
     AXIS["X",EAST],
     AXIS["Y",NORTH]]

PROJCS["WGS 84 / Pseudo-Mercator",
     GEOGCS["WGS 84",
         DATUM["WGS_1984",
             SPHEROID["WGS 84",6378137,298.257223563,
                 AUTHORITY["EPSG","7030"]],
             AUTHORITY["EPSG","6326"]],
         PRIMEM["Greenwich",0,
             AUTHORITY["EPSG","8901"]],
         UNIT["degree",0.01745329251994328,
             AUTHORITY["EPSG","9122"]],
         AUTHORITY["EPSG","4326"]],
     UNIT["metre",1,
         AUTHORITY["EPSG","9001"]],
     PROJECTION["Mercator_1SP"],
     PARAMETER["central_meridian",0],
     PARAMETER["scale_factor",1],
     PARAMETER["false_easting",0],
     PARAMETER["false_northing",0],
     EXTENSION["PROJ4","+proj=merc +a=6378137 +b=6378137 +lat_ts=0.0 +lon_0=0.0
+x_0=0.0 +y_0=0 +k=1.0 +units=m +nadgrids=@null +wktext  +no_defs"],
     AUTHORITY["EPSG","3857"],
     AXIS["X",EAST],
     AXIS["Y",NORTH]]


--
---------------------------------------+--------------------------------------
I set the clouds in motion - turn up   | Frank Warmerdam, [hidden email]
light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
and watch the world go round - Rush    | Geospatial Programmer for Rent

_______________________________________________
MetaCRS mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/metacrs
Martin Desruisseaux

Re: EPSG:3785

Reply Threaded More More options
Print post
Permalink
Hello all

Frank Warmerdam a écrit :

> I have to admit I am leery of treating this coordinate system as a special
> projection method.  It is just normal mercator except that we want to
> use different ellipsoidal parameters in the projection calculation than
> we want to use in geographic interpretation of the lat/long (which we
> wish to treat as WGS84).

I have the same feeling... Geotoolkit and GeoTools have an approach applicable
to arbitrary projections while sticking to the standard WKT format, except for
the occurence of two PARAMETER elements in addition of the usual ones:

     http://www.geotoolkit.org/modules/referencing/faq.html#Google

This approach avoid the introduction of new WKT keywords or projection name. But
the EPSG approach is also supported. Given that we don't have much choice to
support the EPSG approach anyway, maybe the incensitive to agree on an
alternative approach has been slightly reduced compared to the time before EPSG
defined 3857...

But if this group still feel the need to agree on an alternative approach to
EPSG:3857, maybe the starting point would be to list on a wiki page the various
known approaches with their pros and cons?

        Martin
_______________________________________________
MetaCRS mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/metacrs