EO-1 Hyperion and ALI Imagery Now in the Public Domain

[Alexandre Leroux]

Hi list,

New satellite imagery data in the public domain. Might interest some
folks on the list :-)

http://slashgeo.org/article.pl?sid=09/08/24/187250


Cheers!

Alex
--
Alexandre Leroux, M.Sc., Ing.
Environnement Canada / Environment Canada
Centre météorologique canadien / Canadian Meteorological Centre
Section de la réponse aux urgences environnementales /
Environmental Emergency Response Section
[hidden email]
_______________________________________________
Geodata mailing list
[hidden email]
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[Pat Cappelaere]

It is great to make geodata free.  However, we could get more of it if  
we could quantify the value of that data.
We need to justify the business case.

Interestingly, for opensource software projects, you can compute the  
potential cost of developing that software.
This is an approximation of the value of that code [but not the value  
that is enabled by the code]
So I am looking for a similar and still imperfect metric.

Any suggestion?

Cost of similar commercial imagery?
Economic value of imaged area?
Potential damage assessment (disaster)?
Scientific value of imagery?

How do we estimate this?

Thanks,
Pat.
_______________________________________________
Geodata mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

[Rafal Wawer]

Interesting question indeed, Pat.

Well, the old Roman wisdom says, that the item is worth as much as customer wants to pay for it. (-;
So I think your first suggestion is close to the objective. (-:

For raster it could apply easily, however for vector... these maybe difficult to use, as even the same themes of the same geometric quality (scale) have sometimes extended attributes, which acquisition in the real world is maybe expensive - in this case I would add total cost of the generation of additional information. A good example would be cadaster parcels. The geometry itself is usually accompanied with plot number, but when it comes with additional attributes of owner and 4eg. commercial value -  well, that's completely different story, because you have to finanse the valuation of the parcels and building/connection of the owner database. Other examlpe could be soil or other environmental  maps - where number of physical or chemical attributes may grow into huge databases. So cost of the geometry itself may be one thing and the cost of the attributes - other.

Best regards:
Raf

Dr. Rafal Wawer
K.U.Leuven
R&D Division SADL (Spatial Application Division)
Celestijnenlaan 200e bus 2224
BE-3001 Leuven-Heverlee
Belgium
tel. [phone]





-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pat Cappelaere
Sent: 11 September 2009 16:57
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?

It is great to make geodata free.  However, we could get more of it if we could quantify the value of that data.
We need to justify the business case.

Interestingly, for opensource software projects, you can compute the potential cost of developing that software.
This is an approximation of the value of that code [but not the value that is enabled by the code] So I am looking for a similar and still imperfect metric.

Any suggestion?

Cost of similar commercial imagery?
Economic value of imaged area?
Potential damage assessment (disaster)?
Scientific value of imagery?

How do we estimate this?

Thanks,
Pat.
_______________________________________________
Geodata mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata
_______________________________________________
Geodata mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

[Mark, Jonathan]

I don't know what the value of free data is, but at some point in the
next while, the City of Vancouver will be soft launching a website from
which GIS and other data will be freely available without restrictions
on use.  I would expect comments to come back about what types of
additional data people would like and have value to them and what they
might do with it if we publish it. The data and formats on our site will
grow over time.

Jonathan


Jonathan Mark, GIS Manager
IT Department
Financial Services Group
City of Vancouver
604-873-7987 phone
604-873-7875 fax
vancouver.ca/vanmap



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Rafal Wawer
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 8:54 AM
To: Pat Cappelaere; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?

Interesting question indeed, Pat.

Well, the old Roman wisdom says, that the item is worth as much as
customer wants to pay for it. (-; So I think your first suggestion is
close to the objective. (-:

For raster it could apply easily, however for vector... these maybe
difficult to use, as even the same themes of the same geometric quality
(scale) have sometimes extended attributes, which acquisition in the
real world is maybe expensive - in this case I would add total cost of
the generation of additional information. A good example would be
cadaster parcels. The geometry itself is usually accompanied with plot
number, but when it comes with additional attributes of owner and 4eg.
commercial value -  well, that's completely different story, because you
have to finanse the valuation of the parcels and building/connection of
the owner database. Other examlpe could be soil or other environmental
maps - where number of physical or chemical attributes may grow into
huge databases. So cost of the geometry itself may be one thing and the
cost of the attributes - other.

Best regards:
Raf

Dr. Rafal Wawer
K.U.Leuven
R&D Division SADL (Spatial Application Division) Celestijnenlaan 200e
bus 2224
BE-3001 Leuven-Heverlee
Belgium
tel. [phone]





-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pat Cappelaere
Sent: 11 September 2009 16:57
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?

It is great to make geodata free.  However, we could get more of it if
we could quantify the value of that data.
We need to justify the business case.

Interestingly, for opensource software projects, you can compute the
potential cost of developing that software.
This is an approximation of the value of that code [but not the value
that is enabled by the code] So I am looking for a similar and still
imperfect metric.

Any suggestion?

Cost of similar commercial imagery?
Economic value of imaged area?
Potential damage assessment (disaster)?
Scientific value of imagery?

How do we estimate this?

Thanks,
Pat.
_______________________________________________
Geodata mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata
_______________________________________________
Geodata mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata
_______________________________________________
Geodata mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

[Pat Cappelaere]

We are doing the same at NASA.  The problem is that it is not  
sustainable over the long run.
There is a cost to doing this. As money gets tighter, you need to be  
able to justify it.  Hence the need for the business case.

Asking people may or may not work until you build a value model with a  
fairly solid foundation.


Can we use the economic value of people and infrastructure within an  
image?  I think that there is a value for a human being.
Value of trees...water...???

I think that there are population density and infrastructure density  
maps that could be used and then infer a price tag.

any better idea to can get us to some hard metric?

Anyone with experience in that area?

Thanks,
Pat.


On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:29 PM, Mark, Jonathan wrote:

> I don't know what the value of free data is, but at some point in the
> next while, the City of Vancouver will be soft launching a website  
> from
> which GIS and other data will be freely available without restrictions
> on use.  I would expect comments to come back about what types of
> additional data people would like and have value to them and what they
> might do with it if we publish it. The data and formats on our site  
> will
> grow over time.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> Jonathan Mark, GIS Manager
> IT Department
> Financial Services Group
> City of Vancouver
> 604-873-7987 phone
> 604-873-7875 fax
> vancouver.ca/vanmap
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Rafal Wawer
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 8:54 AM
> To: Pat Cappelaere; [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?
>
> Interesting question indeed, Pat.
>
> Well, the old Roman wisdom says, that the item is worth as much as
> customer wants to pay for it. (-; So I think your first suggestion is
> close to the objective. (-:
>
> For raster it could apply easily, however for vector... these maybe
> difficult to use, as even the same themes of the same geometric  
> quality
> (scale) have sometimes extended attributes, which acquisition in the
> real world is maybe expensive - in this case I would add total cost of
> the generation of additional information. A good example would be
> cadaster parcels. The geometry itself is usually accompanied with plot
> number, but when it comes with additional attributes of owner and 4eg.
> commercial value -  well, that's completely different story, because  
> you
> have to finanse the valuation of the parcels and building/connection  
> of
> the owner database. Other examlpe could be soil or other environmental
> maps - where number of physical or chemical attributes may grow into
> huge databases. So cost of the geometry itself may be one thing and  
> the
> cost of the attributes - other.
>
> Best regards:
> Raf
>
> Dr. Rafal Wawer
> K.U.Leuven
> R&D Division SADL (Spatial Application Division) Celestijnenlaan 200e
> bus 2224
> BE-3001 Leuven-Heverlee
> Belgium
> tel. [phone]
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pat Cappelaere
> Sent: 11 September 2009 16:57
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?
>
> It is great to make geodata free.  However, we could get more of it if
> we could quantify the value of that data.
> We need to justify the business case.
>
> Interestingly, for opensource software projects, you can compute the
> potential cost of developing that software.
> This is an approximation of the value of that code [but not the value
> that is enabled by the code] So I am looking for a similar and still
> imperfect metric.
>
> Any suggestion?
>
> Cost of similar commercial imagery?
> Economic value of imaged area?
> Potential damage assessment (disaster)?
> Scientific value of imagery?
>
> How do we estimate this?
>
> Thanks,
> Pat.
> _______________________________________________
> Geodata mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata
> _______________________________________________
> Geodata mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

_______________________________________________
Geodata mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

[Bob Basques]

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

All,

We're in the middle of these same sorts of discussions about making data freely available, both at the City and in the metro area in general.

Here at the City we use the same system for internal and external access, and the extra costs have thus far been marginal to allowing access.   There are some potential problems with this though in the future, in that if a datasets becomes popular, it may impact bandwidth negatively and cause a rethink of the publishing.

One big business need that this solves for us, is in being able to see other regional data owners data since they do the same as we do in the publishing department so we can see each others datasets and not have to worry about keeping a local set available and up to date.  While this is not happening across the board with all regional data owners, more and more are coming online all the time.

A bigger concern is how to share data that is sensitive in nature between jurisdictions, that each agency should have access to but the general public shouldn't.  I know this thread is aimed at the public use, but I would suggest that there are a middle class/level of user, where the data usage needs to be tracked.  Not exactly closed off from viewing, but in many cases for security reasons, the usage needs to be tracked in some form.  This is something that is continuously being wrestled with here.

bobb

 

>>> Pat Cappelaere <[hidden email]> wrote:

We are doing the same at NASA.  The problem is that it is not 
sustainable over the long run.
There is a cost to doing this. As money gets tighter, you need to be 
able to justify it.  Hence the need for the business case.

Asking people may or may not work until you build a value model with a 
fairly solid foundation.


Can we use the economic value of people and infrastructure within an 
image?  I think that there is a value for a human being.
Value of trees...water...???

I think that there are population density and infrastructure density 
maps that could be used and then infer a price tag.

any better idea to can get us to some hard metric?

Anyone with experience in that area?

Thanks,
Pat.


On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:29 PM, Mark, Jonathan wrote:

> I don't know what the value of free data is, but at some point in the
> next while, the City of Vancouver will be soft launching a website 
> from
> which GIS and other data will be freely available without restrictions
> on use.  I would expect comments to come back about what types of
> additional data people would like and have value to them and what they
> might do with it if we publish it. The data and formats on our site 
> will
> grow over time.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> Jonathan Mark, GIS Manager
> IT Department
> Financial Services Group
> City of Vancouver
> 604-873-7987 phone
> 604-873-7875 fax
> vancouver.ca/vanmap
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Rafal Wawer
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 8:54 AM
> To: Pat Cappelaere; [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?
>
> Interesting question indeed, Pat.
>
> Well, the old Roman wisdom says, that the item is worth as much as
> customer wants to pay for it. (-; So I think your first suggestion is
> close to the objective. (-:
>
> For raster it could apply easily, however for vector... these maybe
> difficult to use, as even the same themes of the same geometric 
> quality
> (scale) have sometimes extended attributes, which acquisition in the
> real world is maybe expensive - in this case I would add total cost of
> the generation of additional information. A good example would be
> cadaster parcels. The geometry itself is usually accompanied with plot
> number, but when it comes with additional attributes of owner and 4eg.
> commercial value -  well, that's completely different story, because 
> you
> have to finanse the valuation of the parcels and building/connection 
> of
> the owner database. Other examlpe could be soil or other environmental
> maps - where number of physical or chemical attributes may grow into
> huge databases. So cost of the geometry itself may be one thing and 
> the
> cost of the attributes - other.
>
> Best regards:
> Raf
>
> Dr. Rafal Wawer
> K.U.Leuven
> R&D Division SADL (Spatial Application Division) Celestijnenlaan 200e
> bus 2224
> BE-3001 Leuven-Heverlee
> Belgium
> tel. [phone]
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pat Cappelaere
> Sent: 11 September 2009 16:57
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?
>
> It is great to make geodata free.  However, we could get more of it if
> we could quantify the value of that data.
> We need to justify the business case.
>
> Interestingly, for opensource software projects, you can compute the
> potential cost of developing that software.
> This is an approximation of the value of that code [but not the value
> that is enabled by the code] So I am looking for a similar and still
> imperfect metric.
>
> Any suggestion?
>
> Cost of similar commercial imagery?
> Economic value of imaged area?
> Potential damage assessment (disaster)?
> Scientific value of imagery?
>
> How do we estimate this?
>
> Thanks,
> Pat.
> _______________________________________________
> Geodata mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata
> _______________________________________________
> Geodata mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

_______________________________________________
Geodata mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

[Landon Blake]

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

I think we have started identifying a great list of the components of the value of geodata, free or otherwise. Here is the list I have put together from the messages so far:

- The cost to create the geometry of vector data.

- The cost to create the attributes of vector data.

- The cost to acquire and process imagery data.

- The cost to serve or distribute geodata.

- The cost to address security concerns surrounding the use of geodata.

- The inherent value contained in the geodata.

I think it is important to recognize two (2) truths:

- Cost and value are not the same thing, although they are related. When the value of something is more than its cost, everyone benefits. When the cost of something is more than the value, someone is loosing.

- Costs are easier to quantify than value. That is because value is relative. A helicopter may be worth a lot to a police department or a news station, but it won’t do a prison inmate much good.

I think some of this should go on a wiki page. Good discussion!

Landon

 

---

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob Basques
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 11:24 AM
To: Pat Cappelaere; Jonathan Mark
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?

 

All,

 

We're in the middle of these same sorts of discussions about making data freely available, both at the City and in the metro area in general.

 

Here at the City we use the same system for internal and external access, and the extra costs have thus far been marginal to allowing access.   There are some potential problems with this though in the future, in that if a datasets becomes popular, it may impact bandwidth negatively and cause a rethink of the publishing.

 

One big business need that this solves for us, is in being able to see other regional data owners data since they do the same as we do in the publishing department so we can see each others datasets and not have to worry about keeping a local set available and up to date.  While this is not happening across the board with all regional data owners, more and more are coming online all the time.

 

A bigger concern is how to share data that is sensitive in nature between jurisdictions, that each agency should have access to but the general public shouldn't.  I know this thread is aimed at the public use, but I would suggest that there are a middle class/level of user, where the data usage needs to be tracked.  Not exactly closed off from viewing, but in many cases for security reasons, the usage needs to be tracked in some form.  This is something that is continuously being wrestled with here.

 

bobb

 

 

>>> Pat Cappelaere <[hidden email]> wrote:

We are doing the same at NASA.  The problem is that it is not 
sustainable over the long run.
There is a cost to doing this. As money gets tighter, you need to be 
able to justify it.  Hence the need for the business case.

Asking people may or may not work until you build a value model with a 
fairly solid foundation.


Can we use the economic value of people and infrastructure within an 
image?  I think that there is a value for a human being.
Value of trees...water...???

I think that there are population density and infrastructure density 
maps that could be used and then infer a price tag.

any better idea to can get us to some hard metric?

Anyone with experience in that area?

Thanks,
Pat.


On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:29 PM, Mark, Jonathan wrote:

> I don't know what the value of free data is, but at some point in the
> next while, the City of Vancouver will be soft launching a website 
> from
> which GIS and other data will be freely available without restrictions
> on use.  I would expect comments to come back about what types of
> additional data people would like and have value to them and what they
> might do with it if we publish it. The data and formats on our site 
> will
> grow over time.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> Jonathan Mark, GIS Manager
> IT Department
> Financial Services Group
> City of Vancouver
> 604-873-7987 phone
> 604-873-7875 fax
> vancouver.ca/vanmap
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Rafal Wawer
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 8:54 AM
> To: Pat Cappelaere; [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?
>
> Interesting question indeed, Pat.
>
> Well, the old Roman wisdom says, that the item is worth as much as
> customer wants to pay for it. (-; So I think your first suggestion is
> close to the objective. (-:
>
> For raster it could apply easily, however for vector... these maybe
> difficult to use, as even the same themes of the same geometric 
> quality
> (scale) have sometimes extended attributes, which acquisition in the
> real world is maybe expensive - in this case I would add total cost of
> the generation of additional information. A good example would be
> cadaster parcels. The geometry itself is usually accompanied with plot
> number, but when it comes with additional attributes of owner and 4eg.
> commercial value -  well, that's completely different story, because 
> you
> have to finanse the valuation of the parcels and building/connection 
> of
> the owner database. Other examlpe could be soil or other environmental
> maps - where number of physical or chemical attributes may grow into
> huge databases. So cost of the geometry itself may be one thing and 
> the
> cost of the attributes - other.
>
> Best regards:
> Raf
>
> Dr. Rafal Wawer
> K.U.Leuven
> R&D Division SADL (Spatial Application Division) Celestijnenlaan 200e
> bus 2224
> BE-3001 Leuven-Heverlee
> Belgium
> tel. [phone]
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pat Cappelaere
> Sent: 11 September 2009 16:57
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?
>
> It is great to make geodata free.  However, we could get more of it if
> we could quantify the value of that data.
> We need to justify the business case.
>
> Interestingly, for opensource software projects, you can compute the
> potential cost of developing that software.
> This is an approximation of the value of that code [but not the value
> that is enabled by the code] So I am looking for a similar and still
> imperfect metric.
>
> Any suggestion?
>
> Cost of similar commercial imagery?
> Economic value of imaged area?
> Potential damage assessment (disaster)?
> Scientific value of imagery?
>
> How do we estimate this?
>
> Thanks,
> Pat.
> _______________________________________________
> Geodata mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata
> _______________________________________________
> Geodata mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

_______________________________________________
Geodata mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

Warning:
Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.

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[Dave Patton]

On 2009/09/11 7:57 AM, Pat Cappelaere wrote:
> It is great to make geodata free.  However, we could get more of it
> if we could quantify the value of that data. We need to justify the
> business case.

What is the cost of not doing something?
How do you measure value?

Here's a "business case": produce the free data or die.
A bit extreme, but it could be argued that without
free access to worldwide datasets as well as local data
researchers may not be able to properly measure effects
and causes of global warming, and a subsequent lack of
"answers" may lead to 'the death of the human race'.

Framing the discussions with 'the powers that be' about
the "cost and value" of the product/service/data within
the larger context might help some people to look beyond
their 'local' perspective.

--
Dave Patton
CIS Canadian Information Systems
Victoria, B.C.

Degree Confluence Project:
Canadian Coordinator
Technical Coordinator
http://www.confluence.org/

Personal website:
Maps, GPS, etc.
http://members.shaw.ca/davepatton/
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[Pat Cappelaere]

I would argue that providing data for science research can still be  
measured in terms of value.
How many papers are generated from the data and how much research  
references those papers?

I believe that we do have to measure value even if it is hard.

You can at least measure how much the data is used and how effective  
it is.

Pat.

On Sep 11, 2009, at 6:38 PM, Dave Patton wrote:

> On 2009/09/11 7:57 AM, Pat Cappelaere wrote:
>> It is great to make geodata free.  However, we could get more of it
>> if we could quantify the value of that data. We need to justify the
>> business case.
>
> What is the cost of not doing something?
> How do you measure value?
>
> Here's a "business case": produce the free data or die.
> A bit extreme, but it could be argued that without
> free access to worldwide datasets as well as local data
> researchers may not be able to properly measure effects
> and causes of global warming, and a subsequent lack of
> "answers" may lead to 'the death of the human race'.
>
> Framing the discussions with 'the powers that be' about
> the "cost and value" of the product/service/data within
> the larger context might help some people to look beyond
> their 'local' perspective.
>
> --
> Dave Patton
> CIS Canadian Information Systems
> Victoria, B.C.
>
> Degree Confluence Project:
> Canadian Coordinator
> Technical Coordinator
> http://www.confluence.org/
>
> Personal website:
> Maps, GPS, etc.
> http://members.shaw.ca/davepatton/
> _______________________________________________
> Geodata mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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[Rafal Wawer]

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

Hi Bob,

Regarding the accessibility of the sensitive datasets. My colleages from the Catholic University of Leuven: Katleen Janssen and Danny Vandenbroucke;  investigate the issues of the access to sensitive data within the framework of European INSPIRE directive and some general SDI projects. They are currently finishing an internal report for the Nature SDIplus project and a scientific paper will follow the report soon. I will announce it on the [geodata] list as soon the text will be released (report) or published (paper).

 

Best regards:

Raf

 

Dr. Rafal Wawer
K.U.Leuven
R&D Division SADL (Spatial Application Division)
Celestijnenlaan 200e bus 2224
BE-3001 Leuven-Heverlee
Belgium
tel. [phone]

 

 

---

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob Basques
Sent: 11 September 2009 20:24
To: Pat Cappelaere; Jonathan Mark
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?

All,

We're in the middle of these same sorts of discussions about making data freely available, both at the City and in the metro area in general.

Here at the City we use the same system for internal and external access, and the extra costs have thus far been marginal to allowing access.   There are some potential problems with this though in the future, in that if a datasets becomes popular, it may impact bandwidth negatively and cause a rethink of the publishing.

One big business need that this solves for us, is in being able to see other regional data owners data since they do the same as we do in the publishing department so we can see each others datasets and not have to worry about keeping a local set available and up to date.  While this is not happening across the board with all regional data owners, more and more are coming online all the time.

A bigger concern is how to share data that is sensitive in nature between jurisdictions, that each agency should have access to but the general public shouldn't.  I know this thread is aimed at the public use, but I would suggest that there are a middle class/level of user, where the data usage needs to be tracked.  Not exactly closed off from viewing, but in many cases for security reasons, the usage needs to be tracked in some form.  This is something that is continuously being wrestled with here.

bobb

>>> Pat Cappelaere <[hidden email]> wrote:

We are doing the same at NASA.  The problem is that it is not 
sustainable over the long run.
There is a cost to doing this. As money gets tighter, you need to be 
able to justify it.  Hence the need for the business case.

Asking people may or may not work until you build a value model with a 
fairly solid foundation.


Can we use the economic value of people and infrastructure within an 
image?  I think that there is a value for a human being.
Value of trees...water...???

I think that there are population density and infrastructure density 
maps that could be used and then infer a price tag.

any better idea to can get us to some hard metric?

Anyone with experience in that area?

Thanks,
Pat.


On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:29 PM, Mark, Jonathan wrote:

> I don't know what the value of free data is, but at some point in the
> next while, the City of Vancouver will be soft launching a website 
> from
> which GIS and other data will be freely available without restrictions
> on use.  I would expect comments to come back about what types of
> additional data people would like and have value to them and what they
> might do with it if we publish it. The data and formats on our site 
> will
> grow over time.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> Jonathan Mark, GIS Manager
> IT Department
> Financial Services Group
> City of Vancouver
> 604-873-7987 phone
> 604-873-7875 fax
> vancouver.ca/vanmap
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Rafal Wawer
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 8:54 AM
> To: Pat Cappelaere; [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?
>
> Interesting question indeed, Pat.
>
> Well, the old Roman wisdom says, that the item is worth as much as
> customer wants to pay for it. (-; So I think your first suggestion is
> close to the objective. (-:
>
> For raster it could apply easily, however for vector... these maybe
> difficult to use, as even the same themes of the same geometric 
> quality
> (scale) have sometimes extended attributes, which acquisition in the
> real world is maybe expensive - in this case I would add total cost of
> the generation of additional information. A good example would be
> cadaster parcels. The geometry itself is usually accompanied with plot
> number, but when it comes with additional attributes of owner and 4eg.
> commercial value -  well, that's completely different story, because 
> you
> have to finanse the valuation of the parcels and building/connection 
> of
> the owner database. Other examlpe could be soil or other environmental
> maps - where number of physical or chemical attributes may grow into
> huge databases. So cost of the geometry itself may be one thing and 
> the
> cost of the attributes - other.
>
> Best regards:
> Raf
>
> Dr. Rafal Wawer
> K.U.Leuven
> R&D Division SADL (Spatial Application Division) Celestijnenlaan 200e
> bus 2224
> BE-3001 Leuven-Heverlee
> Belgium
> tel. [phone]
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pat Cappelaere
> Sent: 11 September 2009 16:57
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?
>
> It is great to make geodata free.  However, we could get more of it if
> we could quantify the value of that data.
> We need to justify the business case.
>
> Interestingly, for opensource software projects, you can compute the
> potential cost of developing that software.
> This is an approximation of the value of that code [but not the value
> that is enabled by the code] So I am looking for a similar and still
> imperfect metric.
>
> Any suggestion?
>
> Cost of similar commercial imagery?
> Economic value of imaged area?
> Potential damage assessment (disaster)?
> Scientific value of imagery?
>
> How do we estimate this?
>
> Thanks,
> Pat.
> _______________________________________________
> Geodata mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata
> _______________________________________________
> Geodata mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

_______________________________________________
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[Pat Cappelaere]

Some javascript/style in this post has been disabled (why?)

Interesting but off topic for this thread.

I was hoping for a follow-up question:  If the data usage has to be tracked, how can we track value along with that usage?

If we cannot clearly demonstrate value or clear business cases, free data will stay marginal.

Pat.

On Sep 13, 2009, at 4:28 AM, Rafal Wawer wrote:

Hi Bob,

Regarding the accessibility of the sensitive datasets. My colleages from the Catholic University of Leuven: Katleen Janssen and Danny Vandenbroucke;  investigate the issues of the access to sensitive data within the framework of European INSPIRE directive and some general SDI projects. They are currently finishing an internal report for the Nature SDIplus project and a scientific paper will follow the report soon. I will announce it on the [geodata] list as soon the text will be released (report) or published (paper).

 

Best regards:

Raf

 

Dr. Rafal Wawer
K.U.Leuven
R&D Division SADL (Spatial Application Division)
Celestijnenlaan 200e bus 2224
BE-3001 Leuven-Heverlee
Belgium
tel. [phone]

 

 

---

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob Basques
Sent: 11 September 2009 20:24
To: Pat Cappelaere; Jonathan Mark
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?

All,

We're in the middle of these same sorts of discussions about making data freely available, both at the City and in the metro area in general.

Here at the City we use the same system for internal and external access, and the extra costs have thus far been marginal to allowing access.   There are some potential problems with this though in the future, in that if a datasets becomes popular, it may impact bandwidth negatively and cause a rethink of the publishing.

One big business need that this solves for us, is in being able to see other regional data owners data since they do the same as we do in the publishing department so we can see each others datasets and not have to worry about keeping a local set available and up to date.  While this is not happening across the board with all regional data owners, more and more are coming online all the time.

A bigger concern is how to share data that is sensitive in nature between jurisdictions, that each agency should have access to but the general public shouldn't.  I know this thread is aimed at the public use, but I would suggest that there are a middle class/level of user, where the data usage needs to be tracked.  Not exactly closed off from viewing, but in many cases for security reasons, the usage needs to be tracked in some form.  This is something that is continuously being wrestled with here.

bobb

>>> Pat Cappelaere <[hidden email]> wrote:

We are doing the same at NASA.  The problem is that it is not 
sustainable over the long run.
There is a cost to doing this. As money gets tighter, you need to be 
able to justify it.  Hence the need for the business case.

Asking people may or may not work until you build a value model with a 
fairly solid foundation.


Can we use the economic value of people and infrastructure within an 
image?  I think that there is a value for a human being.
Value of trees...water...???

I think that there are population density and infrastructure density 
maps that could be used and then infer a price tag.

any better idea to can get us to some hard metric?

Anyone with experience in that area?

Thanks,
Pat.


On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:29 PM, Mark, Jonathan wrote:

> I don't know what the value of free data is, but at some point in the
> next while, the City of Vancouver will be soft launching a website 
> from
> which GIS and other data will be freely available without restrictions
> on use.  I would expect comments to come back about what types of
> additional data people would like and have value to them and what they
> might do with it if we publish it. The data and formats on our site 
> will
> grow over time.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> Jonathan Mark, GIS Manager
> IT Department
> Financial Services Group
> City of Vancouver
> 604-873-7987 phone
> 604-873-7875 fax
> vancouver.ca/vanmap
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Rafal Wawer
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 8:54 AM
> To: Pat Cappelaere; [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?
>
> Interesting question indeed, Pat.
>
> Well, the old Roman wisdom says, that the item is worth as much as
> customer wants to pay for it. (-; So I think your first suggestion is
> close to the objective. (-:
>
> For raster it could apply easily, however for vector... these maybe
> difficult to use, as even the same themes of the same geometric 
> quality
> (scale) have sometimes extended attributes, which acquisition in the
> real world is maybe expensive - in this case I would add total cost of
> the generation of additional information. A good example would be
> cadaster parcels. The geometry itself is usually accompanied with plot
> number, but when it comes with additional attributes of owner and 4eg.
> commercial value -  well, that's completely different story, because 
> you
> have to finanse the valuation of the parcels and building/connection 
> of
> the owner database. Other examlpe could be soil or other environmental
> maps - where number of physical or chemical attributes may grow into
> huge databases. So cost of the geometry itself may be one thing and 
> the
> cost of the attributes - other.
>
> Best regards:
> Raf
>
> Dr. Rafal Wawer
> K.U.Leuven
> R&D Division SADL (Spatial Application Division) Celestijnenlaan 200e
> bus 2224
> BE-3001 Leuven-Heverlee
> Belgium
> tel. [phone]
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pat Cappelaere
> Sent: 11 September 2009 16:57
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?
>
> It is great to make geodata free.  However, we could get more of it if
> we could quantify the value of that data.
> We need to justify the business case.
>
> Interestingly, for opensource software projects, you can compute the
> potential cost of developing that software.
> This is an approximation of the value of that code [but not the value
> that is enabled by the code] So I am looking for a similar and still
> imperfect metric.
>
> Any suggestion?
>
> Cost of similar commercial imagery?
> Economic value of imaged area?
> Potential damage assessment (disaster)?
> Scientific value of imagery?
>
> How do we estimate this?
>
> Thanks,
> Pat.
> _______________________________________________
> Geodata mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata
> _______________________________________________
> Geodata mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

_______________________________________________
Geodata mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

_______________________________________________
Geodata mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

[Bruce Bannerman-2]

IMO:


There was some research done recently into trying to determine the value that the spatial information industry contributed to the Australian economy. By extension, arguments could be made as to the value of the spatial data that is driving the industry.

Personally, I thing that the data is invaluable.


The research was done in 2007 by ACIL Tasman:

http://www.crcsi.com.au/uploads/publications/PUBLICATION_323.pdf


For those coming to Sydney for FOSS4G-2009, this paper will also be presented.



   Bruce Bannerman



 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pat Cappelaere
> Sent: Saturday, 12 September 2009 12:57 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?
>
> It is great to make geodata free.  However, we could get more
> of it if we could quantify the value of that data.
> We need to justify the business case.
>
> Interestingly, for opensource software projects, you can
> compute the potential cost of developing that software.
> This is an approximation of the value of that code [but not
> the value that is enabled by the code] So I am looking for a
> similar and still imperfect metric.
>
> Any suggestion?
>
> Cost of similar commercial imagery?
> Economic value of imaged area?
> Potential damage assessment (disaster)?
> Scientific value of imagery?
>
> How do we estimate this?
>
> Thanks,
> Pat.
> _______________________________________________
> Geodata mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata
> _______________________________________________

Geodata mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

[Pat Cappelaere]

Bruce,

This document articulates clearly the value of the data.  This is the  
kind of business case I am looking for... in the US.
Thanks for pointing this out.  This is a great step in the right  
direction.

Providers of free data have to be ready to justify the economic value  
of their own data.  Saying that it is invaluable is not an enabler to  
make it free and could be construed as the opposite by some.

Pat.

On Sep 13, 2009, at 8:59 PM, Bruce Bannerman wrote:

> IMO:
>
>
> There was some research done recently into trying to determine the  
> value that the spatial information industry contributed to the  
> Australian economy. By extension, arguments could be made as to the  
> value of the spatial data that is driving the industry.
>
> Personally, I thing that the data is invaluable.
>
>
> The research was done in 2007 by ACIL Tasman:
>
> http://www.crcsi.com.au/uploads/publications/PUBLICATION_323.pdf
>
>
> For those coming to Sydney for FOSS4G-2009, this paper will also be  
> presented.
>
>
>
>   Bruce Bannerman
>
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pat Cappelaere
>> Sent: Saturday, 12 September 2009 12:57 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?
>>
>> It is great to make geodata free.  However, we could get more
>> of it if we could quantify the value of that data.
>> We need to justify the business case.
>>
>> Interestingly, for opensource software projects, you can
>> compute the potential cost of developing that software.
>> This is an approximation of the value of that code [but not
>> the value that is enabled by the code] So I am looking for a
>> similar and still imperfect metric.
>>
>> Any suggestion?
>>
>> Cost of similar commercial imagery?
>> Economic value of imaged area?
>> Potential damage assessment (disaster)?
>> Scientific value of imagery?
>>
>> How do we estimate this?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Pat.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Geodata mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata
>> _______________________________________________
> Geodata mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

_______________________________________________
Geodata mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

[Bruce Bannerman-2]

IMO:

Pat,

The same organisation has done a study on the New Zealand spatial industry.

You can find the report via this url:

http://geospatial.govt.nz/linz-media-release-spatial-information-adds-hundreds-of-millions-to-new-zealand-s-economy/



   --
   Bruce Bannerman



 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Cappelaere [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Monday, 14 September 2009 11:16 AM
> To: Bruce Bannerman
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?
> [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
>
> Bruce,
>
> This document articulates clearly the value of the data.  
> This is the kind of business case I am looking for... in the US.
> Thanks for pointing this out.  This is a great step in the
> right direction.
>
> Providers of free data have to be ready to justify the
> economic value of their own data.  Saying that it is
> invaluable is not an enabler to make it free and could be
> construed as the opposite by some.
>
> Pat.
>
> On Sep 13, 2009, at 8:59 PM, Bruce Bannerman wrote:
>
> > IMO:
> >
> >
> > There was some research done recently into trying to determine the
> > value that the spatial information industry contributed to the
> > Australian economy. By extension, arguments could be made as to the
> > value of the spatial data that is driving the industry.
> >
> > Personally, I thing that the data is invaluable.
> >
> >
> > The research was done in 2007 by ACIL Tasman:
> >
> > http://www.crcsi.com.au/uploads/publications/PUBLICATION_323.pdf
> >
> >
> > For those coming to Sydney for FOSS4G-2009, this paper will also be
> > presented.
> >
> >
> >
> >   Bruce Bannerman
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [hidden email]
> >> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pat
> Cappelaere
> >> Sent: Saturday, 12 September 2009 12:57 AM
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?
> >>
> >> It is great to make geodata free.  However, we could get
> more of it
> >> if we could quantify the value of that data.
> >> We need to justify the business case.
> >>
> >> Interestingly, for opensource software projects, you can
> compute the
> >> potential cost of developing that software.
> >> This is an approximation of the value of that code [but
> not the value
> >> that is enabled by the code] So I am looking for a similar
> and still
> >> imperfect metric.
> >>
> >> Any suggestion?
> >>
> >> Cost of similar commercial imagery?
> >> Economic value of imaged area?
> >> Potential damage assessment (disaster)?
> >> Scientific value of imagery?
> >>
> >> How do we estimate this?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Pat.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Geodata mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata
> >> _______________________________________________
> > Geodata mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata
>
> _______________________________________________

Geodata mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

[Landon Blake]

Pat,

The GIS chief at one of my local counties (I think it is Calaveras, but
it might be Amador) recently did a study and presentation on the
positive impacts on the local economy of releasing the Counties parcel
data freely.

If you want to contact him on this topic, I will try to dig up an
e-mail.

Landon
Office Phone Number: [phone]
Cell Phone Number: [phone]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pat Cappelaere
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 6:16 PM
To: Bruce Bannerman
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?
[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

Bruce,

This document articulates clearly the value of the data.  This is the  
kind of business case I am looking for... in the US.
Thanks for pointing this out.  This is a great step in the right  
direction.

Providers of free data have to be ready to justify the economic value  
of their own data.  Saying that it is invaluable is not an enabler to  
make it free and could be construed as the opposite by some.

Pat.

On Sep 13, 2009, at 8:59 PM, Bruce Bannerman wrote:

> IMO:
>
>
> There was some research done recently into trying to determine the  
> value that the spatial information industry contributed to the  
> Australian economy. By extension, arguments could be made as to the  
> value of the spatial data that is driving the industry.
>
> Personally, I thing that the data is invaluable.
>
>
> The research was done in 2007 by ACIL Tasman:
>
> http://www.crcsi.com.au/uploads/publications/PUBLICATION_323.pdf
>
>
> For those coming to Sydney for FOSS4G-2009, this paper will also be  
> presented.
>
>
>
>   Bruce Bannerman
>
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pat Cappelaere
>> Sent: Saturday, 12 September 2009 12:57 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: [Geodata] What is the value of free data?
>>
>> It is great to make geodata free.  However, we could get more
>> of it if we could quantify the value of that data.
>> We need to justify the business case.
>>
>> Interestingly, for opensource software projects, you can
>> compute the potential cost of developing that software.
>> This is an approximation of the value of that code [but not
>> the value that is enabled by the code] So I am looking for a
>> similar and still imperfect metric.
>>
>> Any suggestion?
>>
>> Cost of similar commercial imagery?
>> Economic value of imaged area?
>> Potential damage assessment (disaster)?
>> Scientific value of imagery?
>>
>> How do we estimate this?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Pat.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Geodata mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata
>> _______________________________________________
> Geodata mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/geodata

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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