Definition of a Project

[Arnulf Christl (OSGeo)]

All,
working on GRASS incubation documents has brought up an interesting
question. What is the definition of a project or how should it be defined.
(I guess most projects have never really bothered to do this). The
following definition of 'The GRASS Project' is being discussed.

>> "The GRASS Project" is defined as the GPL-licenced GIS software known as
>> the Geographic Resources Analysis Support System, together with the
>> surrounding development, distribution and promotion infrastructure
>> currently headquarted at ITC-irst, Trento, Italy.

It has been suggested to not specify the location of the headquarter to
not necessarily have to revisit the document in case HQ or the
organisation behind it changes. Otoh the definition should obviously be as
precise as possible to avoid confusion with other works of the same name.

This might also be of interest with respect to Copyright issues when it
comes to documentation, tutorials, demo and real data, logo, layout,
merchandise, etc. How far does the project definition reach. What about
registered or trademarked names and last and most what about the community
around it. Is it part of the definition, can it be copyrighted and
licensed? Obviously not but where is the demarcation line. Any forked
projects will have first hand experiences and opinions on this.

I definitely don't see this as a blocker to graduation but it is intriguing.

Best regards,
Arnulf.

--
Arnulf Christl
http://www.osgeo.org

[Michael Barton]

This could be of potential importance as OSGeo projects gain increasing
recognition and widespread use.

Recently, there was a misunderstanding where a well-intentioned student
wanted to name a new GIS GRASS TNG, even though it was to have no connection
with the 'real' GRASS project. In this particular case, the student was only
exploring the potential of using a new software platform and library
architecture for GIS development. He asked the GRASS developer list and,
after some discussion, agreed to change the name.

Out of curiosity, is there anything beyond open source etiquette to prevent
someone less well-intentioned from creating a new GIS (open source or
commercial) and naming it GRASS II (or something like this) to capitalize on
GRASS's reputation?

Michael


On 3/11/07 5:03 PM, "Arnulf Christl" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> All,
> working on GRASS incubation documents has brought up an interesting
> question. What is the definition of a project or how should it be defined.
> (I guess most projects have never really bothered to do this). The
> following definition of 'The GRASS Project' is being discussed.
>
>>> "The GRASS Project" is defined as the GPL-licenced GIS software known as
>>> the Geographic Resources Analysis Support System, together with the
>>> surrounding development, distribution and promotion infrastructure
>>> currently headquarted at ITC-irst, Trento, Italy.
>
> It has been suggested to not specify the location of the headquarter to
> not necessarily have to revisit the document in case HQ or the
> organisation behind it changes. Otoh the definition should obviously be as
> precise as possible to avoid confusion with other works of the same name.
>
> This might also be of interest with respect to Copyright issues when it
> comes to documentation, tutorials, demo and real data, logo, layout,
> merchandise, etc. How far does the project definition reach. What about
> registered or trademarked names and last and most what about the community
> around it. Is it part of the definition, can it be copyrighted and
> licensed? Obviously not but where is the demarcation line. Any forked
> projects will have first hand experiences and opinions on this.
>
> I definitely don't see this as a blocker to graduation but it is intriguing.
>
> Best regards,
> Arnulf.

__________________________________________
Michael Barton, Professor of Anthropology
School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
Arizona State University

phone: [phone]
fax: [phone]
www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton

[Brad Douglas]

On Sun, 2007-03-11 at 20:04 -0700, Michael Barton wrote:
> Out of curiosity, is there anything beyond open source etiquette to prevent
> someone less well-intentioned from creating a new GIS (open source or
> commercial) and naming it GRASS II (or something like this) to capitalize on
> GRASS's reputation?

There is little to stop anyone from using a similar (or GRASS for that
matter) name.  All we have is prior use, which usually has little effect
on trademark law.

IMO, GRASS should trademarked.  A trademark is not guarantee, either.
It must also be used properly to yield maximum legal protection.  This
information came from a discussion with a patent attorney.  It's a
little outside his field, so the information may not be 100% correct.
I'm not privy how this works internationally, either...only United
States law.

What is OSGEO's position about copyright/trademark law?

If deemed needed, I could file on behalf of GRASS in the US.  I could
absorb the $50 filing fee, but there is a larger fee (~$325 per
"classification") I cannot absorb when "classes" are granted.  This
generally grants a trademark for a period of 10 years.


--
Brad Douglas <rez touchofmadness com>                    KB8UYR/6
Address: 37.493,-121.924 / WGS84    National Map Corps #TNMC-3785

[HamishB]

Frank Warmerdam wrote:

>
> Note, legally registering a trademark can be somewhat onerous, but you
> can just assert a trademark ( (tm) instead of (R) ) and that carries
> quite a bit of weight from a legal point of view.  That is what we
> decided to do for "OSGeo".
>
> If GRASS considers it important, we could look at (tm) issues, or even
> possibly registering the GRASS trademark.  But I'd hesitate before
> getting overly legalistic about this if there isn't really a
> compelling problem.

Would adding (tm) once somewhere low on the GRASS homepage and once in
the 'g.version -c' copyright statement be prudent?


Hamish

[Frank Warmerdam]

Brad Douglas wrote:

> On Sun, 2007-03-11 at 20:04 -0700, Michael Barton wrote:
>> Out of curiosity, is there anything beyond open source etiquette to prevent
>> someone less well-intentioned from creating a new GIS (open source or
>> commercial) and naming it GRASS II (or something like this) to capitalize on
>> GRASS's reputation?
>
> There is little to stop anyone from using a similar (or GRASS for that
> matter) name.  All we have is prior use, which usually has little effect
> on trademark law.
>
> IMO, GRASS should trademarked.  A trademark is not guarantee, either.
> It must also be used properly to yield maximum legal protection.  This
> information came from a discussion with a patent attorney.  It's a
> little outside his field, so the information may not be 100% correct.
> I'm not privy how this works internationally, either...only United
> States law.
>
> What is OSGEO's position about copyright/trademark law?
>
> If deemed needed, I could file on behalf of GRASS in the US.  I could
> absorb the $50 filing fee, but there is a larger fee (~$325 per
> "classification") I cannot absorb when "classes" are granted.  This
> generally grants a trademark for a period of 10 years.

Brad,

Note, legally registering a trademark can be somewhat onerous, but you
can just assert a trademark ( (tm) instead of (R) ) and that carries quite
a bit of weight from a legal point of view.  That is what we decided to
do for "OSGeo".

If GRASS considers it important, we could look at (tm) issues, or even
possibly registering the GRASS trademark.  But I'd hesitate before getting
overly legalistic about this if there isn't really a compelling problem.

IMHO

Best regards,
--
---------------------------------------+--------------------------------------
I set the clouds in motion - turn up   | Frank Warmerdam, [hidden email]
light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
and watch the world go round - Rush    | President OSGeo, http://osgeo.org

[Brad Douglas]

On Tue, 2007-03-13 at 01:32 -0400, Frank Warmerdam wrote:
> Note, legally registering a trademark can be somewhat onerous, but you
> can just assert a trademark ( (tm) instead of (R) ) and that carries quite
> a bit of weight from a legal point of view.  That is what we decided to
> do for "OSGeo".

Ah.  I figured someone had looked into it at an international level.
Great news, then.

> If GRASS considers it important, we could look at (tm) issues, or even
> possibly registering the GRASS trademark.  But I'd hesitate before getting
> overly legalistic about this if there isn't really a compelling problem.

Registration can be costly and time consuming.  If we can get away with
a simple (tm) assertion, it would definitely be the way to go.  Anything
more is a waste of resources.  But I do wonder what the difference is
between (tm) assertion and registration.


--
Brad Douglas <rez touchofmadness com>                    KB8UYR/6
Address: 37.493,-121.924 / WGS84    National Map Corps #TNMC-3785

[Frank Warmerdam]

Hamish wrote:

> Frank Warmerdam wrote:
>> Note, legally registering a trademark can be somewhat onerous, but you
>> can just assert a trademark ( (tm) instead of (R) ) and that carries
>> quite a bit of weight from a legal point of view.  That is what we
>> decided to do for "OSGeo".
>>
>> If GRASS considers it important, we could look at (tm) issues, or even
>> possibly registering the GRASS trademark.  But I'd hesitate before
>> getting overly legalistic about this if there isn't really a
>> compelling problem.
>
> Would adding (tm) once somewhere low on the GRASS homepage and once in
> the 'g.version -c' copyright statement be prudent?

Hamish,

Yes, that would be helpful in a few strategic locations.  Also, on legal
advice, we wrote up "trademark guidelines" for the OSGeo name and published
those on the web site.

   http://www.osgeo.org/content/foundation/legal/trademark_guidelines.html

Something like this (or perhaps a bit simplier) would be prudent.

Best regards,
--
---------------------------------------+--------------------------------------
I set the clouds in motion - turn up   | Frank Warmerdam, [hidden email]
light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
and watch the world go round - Rush    | President OSGeo, http://osgeo.org

[Arnulf Christl (OSGeo)]

Frank Warmerdam wrote:

> Brad Douglas wrote:
>> On Sun, 2007-03-11 at 20:04 -0700, Michael Barton wrote:
>>> Out of curiosity, is there anything beyond open source etiquette to
>>> prevent
>>> someone less well-intentioned from creating a new GIS (open source or
>>> commercial) and naming it GRASS II (or something like this) to
>>> capitalize on
>>> GRASS's reputation?
>>
>> There is little to stop anyone from using a similar (or GRASS for that
>> matter) name.  All we have is prior use, which usually has little effect
>> on trademark law.
>>
>> IMO, GRASS should trademarked.  A trademark is not guarantee, either.
>> It must also be used properly to yield maximum legal protection.  This
>> information came from a discussion with a patent attorney.  It's a
>> little outside his field, so the information may not be 100% correct.
>> I'm not privy how this works internationally, either...only United
>> States law.
>>
>> What is OSGEO's position about copyright/trademark law?
>>
>> If deemed needed, I could file on behalf of GRASS in the US.  I could
>> absorb the $50 filing fee, but there is a larger fee (~$325 per
>> "classification") I cannot absorb when "classes" are granted.  This
>> generally grants a trademark for a period of 10 years.
>
> Brad,
>
> Note, legally registering a trademark can be somewhat onerous, but you
> can just assert a trademark ( (tm) instead of (R) ) and that carries quite
> a bit of weight from a legal point of view.  That is what we decided to
> do for "OSGeo".

Hi,
I checked this again and it does not say so in the official page:
https://www.osgeo.org/content/foundation/legal/trademark_guidelines.html

and neither in the Wiki page which says "official now" in the comment
and links to the official one (if you have a diff tool handy could you
please check whether they still coincide):
http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php?title=TrademarkGuidelines&oldid=8442

As I am the originator of this change I felt like pointing it out here.
As far as I know we decided in a board meeting to not formally register
our trademark and then accordingly never did:
http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Eighteenth_Board_Meeting#Discuss.2Fapprove_TrademarkGuidelines_proposed_by_VisCom

Last time that (tm) appeared was here:
http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php?title=TrademarkGuidelines&diff=next&oldid=8440

> If GRASS considers it important, we could look at (tm) issues, or even
> possibly registering the GRASS trademark.  But I'd hesitate before getting
> overly legalistic about this if there isn't really a compelling problem.
>
> IMHO
>
> Best regards,

The most interesting bit in this discussion is that this decision was
taken by VisCom and not by incubation committee who seem to have
interests in this topic too. If anybody feels the need to readdress this
issue, go ahead.

Just to add the humor bit please turn to the discussion of this Wiki
http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/TrademarkGuidelines
and do something about this request. I should now probably turn it into
a Trac ticket for incubation...

Regards, Arnulf