Dayton Discovery

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Dale Putnam
RE: USB on all bands ??
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So, if we are going to annoy someone, that means we can't do it?
What? Then we shouldn't be working on getting into space, that is likley to annoy
someone... the folks that live there for one... and I don't want to go any further with that one....
Or.. we don't want to go to the park tomorrow.. we might annoy someone that would have
used the picnic table we are using...
We don't want to go ... ok.. get it?
How about this... can't use cw anywhere... it annoys someone... just try it on 14.230.. or ...
Don't use your K3, cause it annoys those that can't hear as well as you do....
Man, that irritates me... when they can't hear my K2, .....
BANG! goes that theory... ok, so... why not USB where ever?
Cause folks want to talk to folks.. and there is a reverse switch on most all the rigs...
if you want to run USB somewhere... and someone doesn't choose to switch.. guess its gonna be tuff
to talk to 'em, my suggestion? use cw, or digital.... or  ........

I'm gonna go get on the air... want a chat?... or need a qsl? .. I have new ones... and I am workin through the "to answer" stack.. but if you sent one and didn't get one... email me... if you need one and need a Q... email me.

Hey, I'm only tryin to help those that need a card from Wy. k?

--... ...--
Dale - WC7S in Wy

I've got a face for radio.. and a voice for cw...
Heard that or saw it somewhere... cute huh?
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Ron D'Eau Claire
RE: USB on all bands ??
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True, Brian.

A few years ago a buddy and I were chatting on the air with our K2s
comparing the performance of the filters. As part of our testing we made
sure we had no adjacent frequency signals and then switched sidebands back
and forth to see how the rigs sounded.

A guy broke into our QSO berating us for transmitting on an "illegal"
sideband for that band.

I think Ian may have touched on the source of his misunderstanding about the
IARU adopting the current sequence of sidebands used. I don't know if other
countries have rules about that, but the USA does not.

But the breaker on our frequency wasn't hearing that. He KNEW we were the
scum of the bands for our continued illegal act ivies and was quick to point
that out! His position was that if what we were doing was not illegal yet,
it should be.

My concern here is that as the Ham bands become more and more populated with
non-technical "operators", no matter how skilled at operating they might be,
many will tend to want to legislate more and more uniformity in Ham
operations. That can quickly get in the way of free-ranging experimentation,
simply playing with old or unusual  modes of communications or doing
anything they don't agree supports their personal goals.  

We need room for both as we always have: those for whom their goal in the
hobby is to be the best possible "operator", based on their DX, contest
scores or their participation in public service activities, and those for
whom the hobby is a venue for experimentation and tinkering with equipment.

We Amateur Radio Operators have contributed greatly in both arenas over the
years. I hope we will continue to do so. But it requires the freedom for
some Hams to do something many others think is absurd, obviously useless and
wasteful of spectrum space while the experimenters take care not to abuse
their privileges within the rules.

Of course there will always be those who believe the others should be shut
down.

It's up to the rest of us to keep both camps relaxed and tolerant as much as
we can.

Ron AC7AC



-----Original Message-----
From: elecraft-bounces@...
[mailto:elecraft-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 2:48 PM
To: w6jd@...
Cc: elecraft@...
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] USB on all bands ??


You know, there is nothing, legally or technically, preventing anyone  
from running USB on the bands below 10MHz if that is what they really  
want to do. I am sure it will annoy someone tho'. I remember when I  
was accused of trying to ruin packet radio by running that nasty TCP/
IP stuff over the air too. :-)

--

73 de Brian, WB6RQN
Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com



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Tom Childers, N5GE
Re: USB on all bands ??
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On Sat, 24 May 2008 20:33:38 -0700, "Ron D'Eau Claire" <ron@...> wrote:

>True, Brian.
>
>A few years ago a buddy and I were chatting on the air with our K2s
>comparing the performance of the filters. As part of our testing we made
>sure we had no adjacent frequency signals and then switched sidebands back
>and forth to see how the rigs sounded.
>
>A guy broke into our QSO berating us for transmitting on an "illegal"
>sideband for that band.
>
>I think Ian may have touched on the source of his misunderstanding about the
>IARU adopting the current sequence of sidebands used. I don't know if other
>countries have rules about that, but the USA does not.
>
>But the breaker on our frequency wasn't hearing that. He KNEW we were the
>scum of the bands for our continued illegal act ivies and was quick to point
>that out! His position was that if what we were doing was not illegal yet,
>it should be.
>
>My concern here is that as the Ham bands become more and more populated with
>non-technical "operators", no matter how skilled at operating they might be,
>many will tend to want to legislate more and more uniformity in Ham
>operations. That can quickly get in the way of free-ranging experimentation,
>simply playing with old or unusual  modes of communications or doing
>anything they don't agree supports their personal goals.  
>
>We need room for both as we always have: those for whom their goal in the
>hobby is to be the best possible "operator", based on their DX, contest
>scores or their participation in public service activities, and those for
>whom the hobby is a venue for experimentation and tinkering with equipment.
>
>We Amateur Radio Operators have contributed greatly in both arenas over the
>years. I hope we will continue to do so. But it requires the freedom for
>some Hams to do something many others think is absurd, obviously useless and
>wasteful of spectrum space while the experimenters take care not to abuse
>their privileges within the rules.
>
>Of course there will always be those who believe the others should be shut
>down.
>
>It's up to the rest of us to keep both camps relaxed and tolerant as much as
>we can.
>
>Ron AC7AC
>
[snip]

Ron,

When someone tells you are using the wrong sideband, just say that you are
trying to be diverse by giving each sideband their fair share of
use/implementation ;O)

Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq

"Those who would give up
Essential Liberty to
purchase a little Temporary
Safety deserve neither
Liberty nor Safety"

An excerpt from a letter
written in 1755 from the
Assembly to the Governor
of Pennsylvania.

Support the entire Constitution, not
just the parts you like.

http://www.n5ge.com
http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE

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David Cutter
Re: USB on all bands ??
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Way before his time:  that little ditty is ascribed to
Robert McCloskey, State Department spokesman, Vietnam war era.
Used by many since, like so many good sayings.  Churchill was good at it
too.

David
G3UNA

> Thank you Alan Greenspan!!
>
> Doug
> W6JD
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Lyle Johnson <kk7p@...>
>
>> Thank you for the clarifications Ian.
>>
>> > ... All it needs to swap
>> > sidebands is a few changes from "+" to "-" in the DSP code, and to link
>> > that to the band selector. It's all done for us in the K3... but are
>> > you
>> > *sure* you got those signs right, Lyle? :-)
>>
>> "I know you believe you understand what you think I wrote, but I am not
>> sure you realize that what you read is not exactly what I meant."
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Lyle KK7P
>>
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k9ztv
Re: USB on all bands ??
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In reply to a similar question at Dayton, Riley Hollingsworth
specifically addressed the legitimacy of hams using LSB on 20 meters and
above, and  USB on 40 meters and below ("with the possible exception of
160 meters" which drew a laugh from the crowd).  The convention
currently in use is merely traditional and reflects military preference
for standardization (due to channelization) promulgated in the early
days of SSB.

K9ZTV
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Mike Harris-9
Re: USB on all bands ??
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G'day,

<snipo>
So, if we are going to annoy someone, that means we can't do it?
What? Then we shouldn't be working on getting into space, that is likley
to annoy
someone... the folks that live there for one...
<snipo>

Too right.  The surest sign that there is intelligent life out there is
that they haven't tried to contact us.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

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Mike Morrow-3
Re: USB on all bands ??
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>The convention currently in use is merely traditional and reflects
>military preference for standardization (due to channelization)
>promulgated in the early days of SSB.

LSB use on 40m and below is *strictly* a HAM convention.  Military,
commercial marine, and civil aviation standardized on USB from the
very earliest days of the SSB era.

Almost all *early* non-shipboard US military sideband sets offered
*only* USB mode.  This includes the late 1950s USAF AN/ARC-65 and
the USN AN/ARC-38A sets for aircraft, and the AN/GRC-106 and AN/PRC-47
for ground service.  These were among the earliest SSB sets in common
military use.

The succeeding generation of sets offered selectable sideband.  This
includes the USAF AN/ARC-58, USN AN/ARC-94 (618T-2), AN/FRC-93 (KWM-2A),
AN/URC-32, AN/URC-58 and AN/GRC-165 (Harris RF-301), AN/PRC-74,
RT-618/URC, T-827/URT, R-1051/URR, etc.  But these all date from the
early 1960s and later, long after HAMs had settled on LSB on 40m and
below.

Even though some later sets offered LSB, or even ISB, it was almost
never used.  When I was associated with US military communication systems,
the only time I ever saw LSB used on a military frequency was on Military
Affilliated Radio System (MARS) nets.  Since MARS is comprised mainly
of HAMs, years ago *some* circuits followed the HAM convention for net
frequencies below about 7.5 MHz.  But even MARS eventually went
completely to USB.

Mike / KK5F
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Sandy-40
Re: Re: USB on all bands ??
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As long as I worked for Marconi Marine and later Mackay Radio, I don't ever
remember having a shipboard receiver that would work lower sideband.  I have
a Siemens E-410 solid state set that is absolutely top notch and has
provisions for a LSB module, but I have never been able to find one!  The
DEBEG guys in Germany, who I got a service manual from never recalled even
seeing a LSB module.  I had a couple of them\ looking in flea markets there
and they never turned up one.  Letters to DEBEG and Siemens turned up
nothing.  Siemens says they didn't make many modules and had none in stock
at any price.

I had a PRC-74 for a good while and finally sold it as there was no LSB.
Helluva a good working and very rugged radio.

73,

Sandy W5TVW

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Morrow" <kk5f@...>
To: <elecraft@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 11:07 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] Re: USB on all bands ??


> >The convention currently in use is merely traditional and reflects
>>military preference for standardization (due to channelization)
>>promulgated in the early days of SSB.
>
> LSB use on 40m and below is *strictly* a HAM convention.  Military,
> commercial marine, and civil aviation standardized on USB from the
> very earliest days of the SSB era.
>
> Almost all *early* non-shipboard US military sideband sets offered
> *only* USB mode.  This includes the late 1950s USAF AN/ARC-65 and
> the USN AN/ARC-38A sets for aircraft, and the AN/GRC-106 and AN/PRC-47
> for ground service.  These were among the earliest SSB sets in common
> military use.
>
> The succeeding generation of sets offered selectable sideband.  This
> includes the USAF AN/ARC-58, USN AN/ARC-94 (618T-2), AN/FRC-93 (KWM-2A),
> AN/URC-32, AN/URC-58 and AN/GRC-165 (Harris RF-301), AN/PRC-74,
> RT-618/URC, T-827/URT, R-1051/URR, etc.  But these all date from the
> early 1960s and later, long after HAMs had settled on LSB on 40m and
> below.
>
> Even though some later sets offered LSB, or even ISB, it was almost
> never used.  When I was associated with US military communication systems,
> the only time I ever saw LSB used on a military frequency was on Military
> Affilliated Radio System (MARS) nets.  Since MARS is comprised mainly
> of HAMs, years ago *some* circuits followed the HAM convention for net
> frequencies below about 7.5 MHz.  But even MARS eventually went
> completely to USB.
>
> Mike / KK5F
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ab2tc
Re: USB on all bands ??
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Hi,

Had to throw my 2 cents worth in. Personally I would welcome a shift to USB on the lower bands, but I am not very optimistic it will happen. With DSP, adding LSB to any radio is practically without cost (example K3: nil (ALT is required by some CW ops) except for a few engineering hours) so there is no great incentive for manufacturers to drop the LSB selection. I operate mainly above 10MHz so I find that the few times I go on the lower bands, I am a klutz tuning because my brain tells me to tune in the opposite direction of what is actually needed. So here is a request for a new feature: An option to reverse the tuning direction of the tuning knob (per band). Anybody else feeling a need for this luxury feature?

Knut - AB2TC

Lyle KK7P wrote:
> ... I remember when I was
> accused of trying to ruin packet radio by running that nasty TCP/IP
> stuff over the air too. :-)

And see what happened?  Not many people on packet 20 years later!

Now at least I know whose fault it is!

73,

Lyle KK7P

<snip>
AB2TC - Knut
Jim's mail-2
Re: USB on all bands ??
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Comments below.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Childers, N5GE" <n5ge@...>
To: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <ron@...>
Cc: <elecraft@...>
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] USB on all bands ??


On Sat, 24 May 2008 20:33:38 -0700, "Ron D'Eau Claire" <ron@...> wrote:

>True, Brian.
>
>A few years ago a buddy and I were chatting on the air with our K2s
>comparing the performance of the filters. As part of our testing we made
>sure we had no adjacent frequency signals and then switched sidebands back
>and forth to see how the rigs sounded.
>
>A guy broke into our QSO berating us for transmitting on an "illegal"
>sideband for that band.
>
>I think Ian may have touched on the source of his misunderstanding about
>the
>IARU adopting the current sequence of sidebands used. I don't know if other
>countries have rules about that, but the USA does not.
>
>But the breaker on our frequency wasn't hearing that. He KNEW we were the
>scum of the bands for our continued illegal act ivies and was quick to
>point
>that out! His position was that if what we were doing was not illegal yet,
>it should be.
>
>My concern here is that as the Ham bands become more and more populated
>with
>non-technical "operators", no matter how skilled at operating they might
>be,
>many will tend to want to legislate more and more uniformity in Ham
>operations. That can quickly get in the way of free-ranging
>experimentation,
>simply playing with old or unusual  modes of communications or doing
>anything they don't agree supports their personal goals.
>
>We need room for both as we always have: those for whom their goal in the
>hobby is to be the best possible "operator", based on their DX, contest
>scores or their participation in public service activities, and those for
>whom the hobby is a venue for experimentation and tinkering with equipment.
>
>We Amateur Radio Operators have contributed greatly in both arenas over the
>years. I hope we will continue to do so. But it requires the freedom for
>some Hams to do something many others think is absurd, obviously useless
>and
>wasteful of spectrum space while the experimenters take care not to abuse
>their privileges within the rules.
>
>Of course there will always be those who believe the others should be shut
>down.
>
>It's up to the rest of us to keep both camps relaxed and tolerant as much
>as
>we can.
>
>Ron AC7AC
>
[snip]

Ron,

When someone tells you are using the wrong sideband, just say that you are
trying to be diverse by giving each sideband their fair share of
use/implementation ;O)

Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq

Or you could simply state that you had been trying a fully legal mode at
reduced power, AM.  That mode uses both sidebands at the same time
regardless of the band being transmitted on (80, 40, 20, 160, etc.).

"Those who would give up
Essential Liberty to
purchase a little Temporary
Safety deserve neither
Liberty nor Safety"

An excerpt from a letter
written in 1755 from the
Assembly to the Governor
of Pennsylvania.

Support the entire Constitution, not
just the parts you like.

http://www.n5ge.com
http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE

Tom,
I like the tag lines you use.  Very thought provoking and timely.  Keep it
up.

73,
Jim KD5VXH

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Ron D'Eau Claire
What standard/Why a standard? (WAS: USB on all bands ??)
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Like many developments in "radio", Amateurs led the way with some Hams
tinkering with SSSC (single sideband suppressed carrier) long before WWII.
(One reference I've seen reports on-air Amateur experiments in 1933.)

Also, like much of "radio technology" the basics were understood long before
that. In the case of SSSC the understanding appears to go back to the first
detailed analysis of amplitude-modulated signals about 1915.

And, like so many things, the understanding preceded the technology needed
to make it practical.

Hams, not being necessarily practical folks, pursued its use on the bands
well before it was adopted for general commercial and military use. I think
Villard at the Stanford University Amateur Radio club is credited (blamed?)
for launching the Amateur SSB revolution on 75 meters about 1947 that
brought Amateur use of SSB into the mainstream. It's likely the wall-to-wall
heterodynes on the 'phone' bands caused by the huge increase in Hams on the
air in the 1950's were a powerful inducement. Imagine a dozen, strong
key-down CW carriers, all within 2 kHz of each, other producing a howl of
multiple heterodynes on top of several weaker phone signals and you have an
idea of what a typical "phone" band sounded like in the busy evening hours
back then. Multiple notch filters were seldom enough to copy anything out of
the cacophony.

At that time SSB's general use required the development of adequately-stable
receivers and transmitters. I recall reading several engineering journals in
the 1950's reporting that they doubted sufficiently stable oscillators would
*ever* be developed so the signals could be received by non-technical
operators in the military and commercial services.  

That changed very quickly.

My point is that Hams evolved their own "standards" for whatever reason
before SSB was in general use by other services, so it is the other services
who failed to follow the established "standards" on the Ham bands, not the
other way around.

But, then again, there's no more reason for commercial or military users to
follow what Hams do than there is for Hams to follow what the commercial and
military users do.

Indeed, since a large part of Amateur radio is experimenting and try out
things just because they interest someone, there's a lot of excellent
reasons not to follow military and commercial standards.

Granted, failing to follow commercial practice drives the pure "operators" a
bit nuts because they can't buy any old "plug-'n-play" rig designed for
commercial or military work and do what other Hams are doing.

But *not* copying what the other services are doing is the point of Amateur
radio for many. It's why Villard launched the SSB "revolution" in the first
place.

Ron AC7AC

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Mike Morrow-3
Re: USB on all bands ??
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>I had a PRC-74 for a good while and finally sold it as there was no LSB.

You're right about it not having LSB, Sandy.  I've got an AN/PRC-74B
that I've never fired up, so I had forgotten that it should not have
been on my list of LSB-capable military sets.  At least the 74B covers
20 meters (it goes up to 18 MHz), unlike the earlier models that only
covered up to 12 MHz.  That makes those models in practice CW-only in
the ham bands below 7.3 MHz, except for those five USB 60 meter channels.

FWIW, I'd be happy with a shift to USB on all bands, but there's some
vintage ham gear out there that might not be readily adaptable.  The
only real plus to LSB mode is that signal pitch gets higher as the
receiver is tuned higher, which seems more natural to me.

But it isn't an important issue.  It's like tax reform...a good idea
that will never happen.

73,
Mike / KK5F
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Ron D'Eau Claire
RE: USB on all bands ??
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Try a CQ on the "other" sideband. Sure, most ops won't copy but those who
will might produce an interesting QSO.

If they have an Elecraft rig, it won't matter, since it covers both
sidebands.

And you might smoke out someone who has a rig that doesn't work on the other
sideband. Who knows, you might start a movement. At least you'll demonstrate
that USB actually works on 75 meters! (I'd be there are a few operators  who
aren't sure about that.)

Avoiding doing anything "different" is the surest way to avoid ever doing
anything new! You will always be following "the pack".

Ron AC7AC



-----Original Message-----

>I had a PRC-74 for a good while and finally sold it as there was no
>LSB.

You're right about it not having LSB, Sandy.  I've got an AN/PRC-74B that
I've never fired up, so I had forgotten that it should not have been on my
list of LSB-capable military sets.  At least the 74B covers 20 meters (it
goes up to 18 MHz), unlike the earlier models that only covered up to 12
MHz.  That makes those models in practice CW-only in the ham bands below 7.3
MHz, except for those five USB 60 meter channels.

FWIW, I'd be happy with a shift to USB on all bands, but there's some
vintage ham gear out there that might not be readily adaptable.  The only
real plus to LSB mode is that signal pitch gets higher as the receiver is
tuned higher, which seems more natural to me.

But it isn't an important issue.  It's like tax reform...a good idea that
will never happen.

73,
Mike / KK5F

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Dan Romanchik KB6NU
Re: USB on all bands ??
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One time I heard a guy on 20m using LSB.  I switched my rig over to  
LSB, and we had a nice QSO. During the QSO, it turned out that he had  
attended Ohio State University. Well, seeing as how I live in Ann  
Arbor, MI (home of the University of MIchigan), I had a good chuckle  
at his expense over his use of LSB.

Fortunately, no one reprimanded us for using the "wrong" sideband.

73!

Dan KB6NU
----------------------------------------------------------
CW Geek and MI Affiliated Club Coordinator
Read my ham radio blog at http://www.kb6nu.com
LET'S REALLY MAKE THE ARRL THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR HAM RADIO


On May 25, 2008, at 2:53 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> Try a CQ on the "other" sideband. Sure, most ops won't copy but  
> those who
> will might produce an interesting QSO.









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Phil Kane-2
Re: USB on all bands ??
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On 5/25/2008 11:53 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> Try a CQ on the "other" sideband. Sure, most ops won't copy but those
>  who will might produce an interesting QSO.
>
> If they have an Elecraft rig, it won't matter, since it covers both
> sidebands.

IIRC the Hallicrafters rigs that I used 45 years ago - SX101A receiver,
HT-44B transmitter  -  had capability for operation on either sideband
as well as AM and CW.
--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

 From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Kurt Cramer-2
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All my Drake rigs, T-4X(B,C) and TR-4C along with the R-4(ABC) work both
side bands on all bands. My Swan 240 doesn't, but it was a bare bones rig
when new. It covers 80 & 40 on lower and 20 on upper. They all use the 5 and
9 MC system.

Kurt W7QHD

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Art-26
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They sure did, and received them both simultaneously!

73 Art
Also ex boat anchor user

-------------------
K2ASP wrote:

IIRC the Hallicrafters rigs that I used 45 years ago - SX101A receiver,
HT-44B transmitter  -  had capability for operation on either sideband
as well as AM and CW.
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Ron D'Eau Claire
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They sure did, and received them both simultaneously!

73 Art
Also ex boat anchor user

------------------------------------

The HT-44/SX117 combo did that only in AM mode, but was capable of only one
sideband at a time (and either sideband on any band) in SSB mode.

They were a beautiful piece of Hallicrafter's design: The HT-44 was the
transmitter running 100 watts INPUT (or perhaps 60 or 70 watts output) on
SSB. Sold for US $380 in 1962 (without power supply). And was the size of
half a dozen K3s (1). I won't even guess at a weight comparison.

If you wanted to receive and transmit, the matching unit was the SX-117
receiver which sold for another US $380 in '62 and occupied the volume of
another dozen or so K3s (2).

So, without power supplies the setup ran $760 in '62. That is well over
$5,000 today (based on the change in the US consumer price index).

Makes the K3 look like even more of a bargain for those with the budget to
match.

But, for those of us who grew up with the stuff, there's something about
those huge boxes that no modern rig will ever match.

You younger Hams just wait. The day will come when you'll speak fondly of
your K1, K2 or K3 to a new generation of Hams who won't understand why you
OTs could be excited by such old, outmoded and oversized technology.

Ron AC7AC

(1) http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~postr/bapix/ht44.htm

(2) http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~postr/bapix/sx117.htm



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