Complete Moron's Guide
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Alexander Limi
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Complete Moron's Guide
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Why is there a nested Help Center here?
http://plone.org/documentation/complete-morons-guide (it shows up in searches, and is publicly accessible) -- Alexander Limi · http://limi.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plone-docs@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
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JoAnna Springsteen
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Complete Moron's Guide
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> Why is there a nested Help Center here?
> > http://plone.org/documentation/complete-morons-guide > > (it shows up in searches, and is publicly accessible) > My guess is that instead of adding a tutorial, the author accidentally added a tutorial section instead. So just to clarify, when adding a new doc, log in to plone.org, go to documentation, select the contents tab. Find the section you want to add your doc under (how to, tutorial, etc). Select that section and add your doc there. If for some reason anyone feels possessed to add a new section, please email the doc team first and let us know. Now Daftdog, tsk tsk. ;) Can we get you to take the "moron" out of the title to something more friendly...like "easy". J. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plone-docs@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
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Christian Schneider-10
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Re: Complete Moron's Guide
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Hi JoAnna and Limi,
I was the moron in this case, I never intended the thing to be visible (yet). It seems like the inital state is "open for submissions", which makes it show up and all, I was not aware of that... I just hid it. However, I did set up the section intentionally because I wanted to have a folder that holds the kind of documentation that I'm about to write with John and Harit Reisman who are very good (but Plone-wise very frustrated) friends of mine. We are trying to create guides that take people by the hand and explain everything in detail without any holes. John came up with the "morons" in that context and I really like the idea (think of it as a "... for Dummies"-series on Plone). The reason why it does have that name is to be able to brand it so that people that feel lost with other doco can type in "moron" and get what they want (we might try to establish "CMG" as an abbreviation for Complete Moron's Guide as well). The whole thing is a work in progress and was not intended to be even looked at yet. I want to finish 2-3 guides and have them checked by Plonistas of different skill-levels before even submitting them for review, so the best thing to do for now is to ignore it. If someone can't ignore it and feels compelled to try and convince me to use a different name I would ask for very consistent reasoning because, as I just mentioned, there's a reason why it's called like it's called. So unless they know more about marketing than John and Harito, they'd better shuddup! ;o) As to the separate section, again I would want to wait until there's more to talk about, I will split things up further and probably refine the structure along the way, so eventhough a special section doesn't make much sense right now I hope it will soon. That's when I will mail the list again to explain why I want it in a separate section and be able to point people to existing docs that adhere to that structure. So sorry again for not hiding the thing, I didn't know it was visible right away. Cheers, Christian JoAnna Springsteen schrieb: >> Why is there a nested Help Center here? > > > > http://plone.org/documentation/complete-morons-guide > > > > (it shows up in searches, and is publicly accessible) > > > > My guess is that instead of adding a tutorial, the author accidentally > added a tutorial section instead. > > So just to clarify, when adding a new doc, log in to plone.org, go to > documentation, select the contents tab. Find the section you want to > add your doc under (how to, tutorial, etc). Select that section and > add your doc there. > > If for some reason anyone feels possessed to add a new section, please > email the doc team first and let us know. > > Now Daftdog, tsk tsk. ;) Can we get you to take the "moron" out of the > title to something more friendly...like "easy". > > J. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference > Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. > Use priority code J8TL2D2. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plone-docs@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
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Martin Aspeli-2
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Re: Complete Moron's Guide
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Hi Christian,
> I was the moron in this case, I never intended the thing to be visible > (yet). It seems like the inital state is "open for submissions", which > makes it show up and all, I was not aware of that... I just hid it. > However, I did set up the section intentionally because I wanted to have > a folder that holds the kind of documentation that I'm about to write > with John and Harit Reisman who are very good (but Plone-wise very > frustrated) friends of mine. We are trying to create guides that take > people by the hand and explain everything in detail without any holes. > John came up with the "morons" in that context and I really like the > idea (think of it as a "... for Dummies"-series on Plone). The reason > why it does have that name is to be able to brand it so that people that > feel lost with other doco can type in "moron" and get what they want (we > might try to establish "CMG" as an abbreviation for Complete Moron's > Guide as well). > > The whole thing is a work in progress and was not intended to be even > looked at yet. I want to finish 2-3 guides and have them checked by > Plonistas of different skill-levels before even submitting them for > review, so the best thing to do for now is to ignore it. > If someone can't ignore it and feels compelled to try and convince me to > use a different name I would ask for very consistent reasoning because, > as I just mentioned, there's a reason why it's called like it's called. > So unless they know more about marketing than John and Harito, they'd > better shuddup! ;o) > > As to the separate section, again I would want to wait until there's > more to talk about, I will split things up further and probably refine > the structure along the way, so eventhough a special section doesn't > make much sense right now I hope it will soon. That's when I will mail > the list again to explain why I want it in a separate section and be > able to point people to existing docs that adhere to that structure. > > So sorry again for not hiding the thing, I didn't know it was visible Please don't do this kind of experimentation and unilateral restructuring on plone.org. If we had time, we would've made sure doc team members don't have the ability to change the folder structures and base PHC sections. For now, we rely on people's judgement, but the general stance is: don't do it. At least don't do it unless it's been extensively discussed and agreed. Note that I'm very supportive of the concept and I hope it produces some great documentation! You just can't restructure the help centre (which has been fairly carefully thought out) on your own. This will very quickly lead to a mess. I'd appreciate it if you could move your documentation back to the standard areas, lest yours act as precedent for others to start adding nested structures like this. Martin ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plone-docs@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
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Christian Schneider-10
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Re: Complete Moron's Guide
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Hi Martin,
in that case I would actually rather start a discussion about the structure, because I don't find it very intuitive at all. Also, having the CMGs in a folder/section/whatever on their own in a specific order (which turns out to be a problem in the tutorial section now that I have added stubs for future docs) is essential to the whole concept. If this is not possible (and is not going to be possible) in the doc section we might actually move it out from plone.org all together since it totally defeats the purpose. If creating tutorial sections is causing that much trouble I suggest changing the AT-description of tutorial sections to something else than "A Tutorial Section can contain tutorial-length, multi-page documentation.". Christian Martin Aspeli schrieb: > Hi Christian, > >> I was the moron in this case, I never intended the thing to be visible >> (yet). It seems like the inital state is "open for submissions", which >> makes it show up and all, I was not aware of that... I just hid it. >> However, I did set up the section intentionally because I wanted to have >> a folder that holds the kind of documentation that I'm about to write >> with John and Harit Reisman who are very good (but Plone-wise very >> frustrated) friends of mine. We are trying to create guides that take >> people by the hand and explain everything in detail without any holes. >> John came up with the "morons" in that context and I really like the >> idea (think of it as a "... for Dummies"-series on Plone). The reason >> why it does have that name is to be able to brand it so that people that >> feel lost with other doco can type in "moron" and get what they want (we >> might try to establish "CMG" as an abbreviation for Complete Moron's >> Guide as well). >> >> The whole thing is a work in progress and was not intended to be even >> looked at yet. I want to finish 2-3 guides and have them checked by >> Plonistas of different skill-levels before even submitting them for >> review, so the best thing to do for now is to ignore it. >> If someone can't ignore it and feels compelled to try and convince me to >> use a different name I would ask for very consistent reasoning because, >> as I just mentioned, there's a reason why it's called like it's called. >> So unless they know more about marketing than John and Harito, they'd >> better shuddup! ;o) >> >> As to the separate section, again I would want to wait until there's >> more to talk about, I will split things up further and probably refine >> the structure along the way, so eventhough a special section doesn't >> make much sense right now I hope it will soon. That's when I will mail >> the list again to explain why I want it in a separate section and be >> able to point people to existing docs that adhere to that structure. >> >> So sorry again for not hiding the thing, I didn't know it was visible > > Please don't do this kind of experimentation and unilateral > restructuring on plone.org. If we had time, we would've made sure doc > team members don't have the ability to change the folder structures and > base PHC sections. For now, we rely on people's judgement, but the > general stance is: don't do it. At least don't do it unless it's been > extensively discussed and agreed. > > Note that I'm very supportive of the concept and I hope it produces some > great documentation! You just can't restructure the help centre (which > has been fairly carefully thought out) on your own. This will very > quickly lead to a mess. > > I'd appreciate it if you could move your documentation back to the > standard areas, lest yours act as precedent for others to start adding > nested structures like this. > > Martin > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference > Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. > Use priority code J8TL2D2. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plone-docs@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
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Ricardo Newbery-2
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Re: Complete Moron's Guide
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In reply to this post by Christian Schneider-10
On Apr 9, 2008, at 12:12 AM, Christian Schneider wrote: > We are trying to create guides that take > people by the hand and explain everything in detail without any holes. > John came up with the "morons" in that context and I really like the > idea (think of it as a "... for Dummies"-series on Plone). The reason > why it does have that name is to be able to brand it so that people > that > feel lost with other doco can type in "moron" and get what they want > (we > might try to establish "CMG" as an abbreviation for Complete Moron's > Guide as well). Personally, I'm -1 on "moron". Makes it hard to point people to it without inadvertently insulting them. The only times I've ever felt tempted to give someone a "Dummies" guide is when I'm feeling particularly snarky. Ric ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plone-docs@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
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Steve McMahon
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Re: Complete Moron's Guide
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In reply to this post by Martin Aspeli-2
> ... If we had time, we would've made sure doc
> team members don't have the ability to change the folder structures and > base PHC sections. I'm undertaking that change now. Major changes in documentation area structuring should only be undertaken with some planning and substantial document team discussion and agreement. On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 12:27 AM, Martin Aspeli <optilude@...> wrote: > Hi Christian, > > > > > I was the moron in this case, I never intended the thing to be visible > > (yet). It seems like the inital state is "open for submissions", which > > makes it show up and all, I was not aware of that... I just hid it. > > However, I did set up the section intentionally because I wanted to have > > a folder that holds the kind of documentation that I'm about to write > > with John and Harit Reisman who are very good (but Plone-wise very > > frustrated) friends of mine. We are trying to create guides that take > > people by the hand and explain everything in detail without any holes. > > John came up with the "morons" in that context and I really like the > > idea (think of it as a "... for Dummies"-series on Plone). The reason > > why it does have that name is to be able to brand it so that people that > > feel lost with other doco can type in "moron" and get what they want (we > > might try to establish "CMG" as an abbreviation for Complete Moron's > > Guide as well). > > > > The whole thing is a work in progress and was not intended to be even > > looked at yet. I want to finish 2-3 guides and have them checked by > > Plonistas of different skill-levels before even submitting them for > > review, so the best thing to do for now is to ignore it. > > If someone can't ignore it and feels compelled to try and convince me to > > use a different name I would ask for very consistent reasoning because, > > as I just mentioned, there's a reason why it's called like it's called. > > So unless they know more about marketing than John and Harito, they'd > > better shuddup! ;o) > > > > As to the separate section, again I would want to wait until there's > > more to talk about, I will split things up further and probably refine > > the structure along the way, so eventhough a special section doesn't > > make much sense right now I hope it will soon. That's when I will mail > > the list again to explain why I want it in a separate section and be > > able to point people to existing docs that adhere to that structure. > > > > So sorry again for not hiding the thing, I didn't know it was visible > > Please don't do this kind of experimentation and unilateral > restructuring on plone.org. If we had time, we would've made sure doc > team members don't have the ability to change the folder structures and > base PHC sections. For now, we rely on people's judgement, but the > general stance is: don't do it. At least don't do it unless it's been > extensively discussed and agreed. > > Note that I'm very supportive of the concept and I hope it produces some > great documentation! You just can't restructure the help centre (which > has been fairly carefully thought out) on your own. This will very > quickly lead to a mess. > > I'd appreciate it if you could move your documentation back to the > standard areas, lest yours act as precedent for others to start adding > nested structures like this. > > Martin > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference > Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. > Use priority code J8TL2D2. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone > _______________________________________________ > Plone-docs mailing list > Plone-docs@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs > -- ______________________________________________________ Steve McMahon Reid-McMahon, LLC steve@... steve@... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plone-docs@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
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JoAnna Springsteen
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Re: Complete Moron's Guide
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In reply to this post by Christian Schneider-10
> However, I did set up the section intentionally because I wanted to have
> a folder that holds the kind of documentation that I'm about to write > with John and Harit Reisman who are very good (but Plone-wise very > frustrated) friends of mine. We are trying to create guides that take > people by the hand and explain everything in detail without any holes. wouldn't it just be easier to fill in the gaps in the existing documentation instead of trying to recreate an entire doc set from scratch? > John came up with the "morons" in that context and I really like the > idea (think of it as a "... for Dummies"-series on Plone). The reason > why it does have that name is to be able to brand it so that people that > feel lost with other doco can type in "moron" and get what they want (we > might try to establish "CMG" as an abbreviation for Complete Moron's > Guide as well). -1 on the moron's. The whole point of creating documentation is to help people. The last thing we want to do is make them feel stupid or dumb or any other adjective that puts them down. I get the whole branding concept, but come on, you can do better than that. > As to the separate section, again I would want to wait until there's > more to talk about, I will split things up further and probably refine > the structure along the way, so eventhough a special section doesn't > make much sense right now I hope it will soon. That's when I will mail > the list again to explain why I want it in a separate section and be > able to point people to existing docs that adhere to that structure. Creating a new section messes with the structure of the entire doc section. This is something we've done a lot of work on in the past year and intend to further refine yet this spring. Adding a new section without running it by the doc team is a pretty big deal. We're trying to tighten up the information architecture of the doc section so that it is more usable. I've asked SteveM to take away access for doc team members to be able to add sections. It's not something we had intended for anyone to do. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plone-docs@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
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JoAnna Springsteen
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Re: Complete Moron's Guide
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In reply to this post by Christian Schneider-10
> in that case I would actually rather start a discussion about the
> structure, because I don't find it very intuitive at all. Task 7836 from the plone strategic planning summit. We've been posting about it and talking about it online for months now. Join the discussion. You can find all the info in trac. Also, having > the CMGs in a folder/section/whatever on their own in a specific order > (which turns out to be a problem in the tutorial section now that I have > added stubs for future docs) is essential to the whole concept. If this > is not possible (and is not going to be possible) in the doc section we > might actually move it out from plone.org all together since it totally > defeats the purpose. Again, it sounds like you're trying to create a new doc set from scratch. So why keep it on plone.org in the first place if you've gone to all the effort to brand it as something different and don't want it included in the current documentation? I love the idea of filling in the gaps and taking people step by step through things. But this is an effort the whole doc team should (and hopefully is) doing, not just a hand full of people operating parallel to what the rest of the team is doing. We accomplish more if we all work together as a team and work towards an agreed apon goal. Yes, we know our doc section needs to be improved. But we need to develop a strategy on how to improve it before we start making big changes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plone-docs@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
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vedaw
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Re: Complete Moron's Guide
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In reply to this post by Christian Schneider-10
Hi Christian,
I think we're all in agreement that the current documentation section needs some work structurally. I want to let you know that we hear you loud and clear. However, we do need to work as a team on this. We have a lot of tribal knowledge that we need to disseminate: + Work from the Google docsprint (primarily we need to explain the coding functionality that was put in place here and try not to undo that work) + Survey feedback after the documentation section was altered (we got some GREAT ideas here that I will collect and submit to the group as a whole) + Work from the recent Symposium docsprint (key idea here as far as I can tell is the idea of trailheads based on audience / role) + Your work (it feels like the "trailhead" idea to me -- am I understanding correctly?) What I'd like to know is what your specific objective is so that we can reframe it in a way that doesn't break the work we currently have in place. For information on the trailhead concept, please look here: http://www.openplans.org/projects/plonesymposiumeast2008/docs-info-architecture-sketch As a side note, I have to say that I'm opposed to the "morons" phraseology, partially because it is a little insulting and differs from the overall tone of plone.org, and also because it might not be easily translateable into other languages. Besides, you're not really writing a moron's guide. :) I think we can find a way to brand it in a way that is memorable and also unique to Plone. Let's see if we can take the experiences I've mentioned above and find a joint solution. We're gearing up for a wider discussion -- probably next week on IRC (soon to be announced) and of course here on the docs list -- so that we can flesh out the objectives we're trying to achieve and find a way to make it work better. We'd love for you to join us if you can. I'm officially throwing my hat in the ring as the designer for the soon-to-be-revised docs section. I just need a set of group-sanctioned objectives that will help us improve the current situation, because we all know it's lacking at the moment. Cheers, - Veda
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JoAnna Springsteen
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Fwd: Complete Moron's Guide
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In reply to this post by JoAnna Springsteen
Hello all,
I'm the John part of the CMG. Am I a moron, I don't think so but I often feel like one when I am trying to get things done in Plone by following the docs. For many reasons we came up with the idea of a complete morons guide. Using the same terminology as 'idiots guide' and 'guides for dummies'. Is that really bad? I don't think so. Millions of people have bought these books, can it really be that bad an idea? When I was in Naples at the conf. I went to the birds of a feather that Joel had for I think instructors of something to that effect. I was disappointed in what I saw there. The people that seemed to be in the 'in' click were ignoring others in the room that kept raising their hand to speak. This went on for an hour and the guy next to me kept raising his hand. Finally I just interrupted everyone and said hey, this guy has had his hand up for the last hour and no one is being considerate of him. Why is that? I think the community is great in many ways, but rock stars are rock stars and while I understand it is often just a phase... I have experience with rock stars having been a producer in hollywood and running one of the top 10 studios ...those of us in the community should at least be aware of the tendency. There is nothing wrong with a morons guide and it should be introduced as an apex type of document not in any diminutive sense. As to Mr. Ricardo Newberys temptations to only send someone an idiots guide when he feels particularly snarky. I think he should seriously rethink his perspective. If that is his true feeling then he really does look down on some people rather than want to lift them up with a very informative idiots guide that probably knows how to explain things in simper terms than he does (otherwise he would not be considering sending them the guide in the first place). In complexity there is plenty of fault and richness, and we are all a part of the fault and the richness, if we participate earnestly. JoAnna commented she did not like the word moron and that it should be changed to "easy". Veda had a similar comment. Marketing strategies aside, we should consider the absolute success of "The Complete Idiots Guide" and the for Dummies books. Should we let them know they should change the name of their hundreds of books to "The Complete Easy Guide" and the say "Python for Nice People" instead of "Python for Dummies"? The simple fact of the matter is that for those that don't know python or have a strong understanding of the Plone/Zope infrastructure, it is quite challenging. Can people learn it, yes. Can I learn it, yes. Do I, or others, have time to figure things out when the docs on the plone.org site are either misleading, incomplete or otherwise incorrect. No. I'm currently buried in W/m2, aerosols and albedo along with thermal inertia lag time; not to mention my survey work in per capita cancer rates and genomics for biofuels. I don't have time to chase ghosts that don't exist. There is an old saying in the rock & roll business. "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Basically, if it's not working, don't waste time on it. Plone is an expert at making people feel stupid and also expert at wasting time. But there are advantages. I like many others recognize that plones open source and extensibility along with workflow and security make it a foundation tool for future efficiency and effective communication and information sharing. So I joined the community as best I can. So far I'm still not sure where I fit in. But I am trying to help along with so many others. JoAnna brings up a very important point. The point of why not just fix what we have. In an ideal world, that would work just fine. but time is of the essence and quality is at stake. Joel Burton has also brought this up about other Plone developments. We should fix what we have, rather than start anew. While one should not make mountains out of molehills, one should also not make molehills out of mountains. When one looks at the number of docs and the number of outdated, incomplete, inaccurate, overly verbose, not verbose enough, full of holes, and too many molehills in the world, world; one must wonder about the wisdom of trying to fix each molehill, or whether it's time to plow the field. With best regards, John On Apr 8, 2008, at 6:58 PM, JoAnna Springsteen wrote: > > > > > > Why is there a nested Help Center here? > > > > http://plone.org/documentation/complete-morons-guide > > > > (it shows up in searches, and is publicly accessible) > > > > > > My guess is that instead of adding a tutorial, the author accidentally > added a tutorial section instead. > > So just to clarify, when adding a new doc, log in to plone.org, go to > documentation, select the contents tab. Find the section you want to > add your doc under (how to, tutorial, etc). Select that section and > add your doc there. > > If for some reason anyone feels possessed to add a new section, please > email the doc team first and let us know. > > Now Daftdog, tsk tsk. ;) Can we get you to take the "moron" out of the > title to something more friendly...like "easy". > > J. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference > Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. > Use priority code J8TL2D2. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone > _______________________________________________ > Plone-docs mailing list > Plone-docs@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plone-docs@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
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vedaw
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Re: Fwd: Complete Moron's Guide
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Hi All,
Just to clarify, the community is indeed trying hard to move forward towards using buildout for future development, including for skinners like Harito. As a fellow skinner, I have felt the same pain -- errors in documentation, incomplete documentation, etc. It took me three months and the help of two programmers to get a working buildout. Without my programmers, I would be unemployed by now. The documentation is woefully inadequate, or just plain hard to find. I jumped on this thread because I think this is a perfect opportunity for me to help to improve the current situation, and I know with the help of other people, it will be even better. My hope is that we can set aside the immediate issue of Christian's documentation, and focus first on getting the infrastructure in place so that the documentation we *do* have gets surfaced better, then we can work to patch the holes / prune the docs / adapt the docs. Maybe the scattered docs should become part of Christian's documentation? It's entirely possible. Let's address the functional needs we have first, and then try to tackle the other issues one at a time. This email thread is a cry for help from those of us affected by the transition to 3.0, and we all have the power to improve the situation. Thanks everyone for being so vocal, even if the criticism is hard to hear. It's what makes it a great community, in my opinion. Stay tuned for next steps. - Veda
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Ricardo Newbery-2
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Re: Fwd: Complete Moron's Guide
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In reply to this post by JoAnna Springsteen
On Apr 9, 2008, at 4:11 PM, John wrote: > Hello all, > > I'm the John part of the CMG. Am I a moron, I don't think so but I > often feel like one when I am trying to get things done in Plone by > following the docs. For many reasons we came up with the idea of a > complete morons guide. Using the same terminology as 'idiots guide' > and 'guides for dummies'. Is that really bad? I don't think so. > Millions of people have bought these books, can it really be that bad > an idea? You're confusing branding with content. The reason the original Dummies guides did well was because they filled a need for simple do- it-yourself guides on using DOS -- this was the early 90's and easy beginner guides were nowhere to be found. It's the content that created the popularity, not the brand. The brand (which includes much more than just the term "dummy") mostly helped later when they expanded into other topics. > When I was in Naples at the conf. I went to the birds of a feather > that Joel had for I think instructors of something to that effect. I > was disappointed in what I saw there. The people that seemed to be in > the 'in' click were ignoring others in the room that kept raising > their hand to speak. This went on for an hour and the guy next to me > kept raising his hand. Finally I just interrupted everyone and said > hey, this guy has had his hand up for the last hour and no one is > being considerate of him. > > Why is that? > > I think the community is great in many ways, but rock stars are rock > stars and while I understand it is often just a phase... I have > experience with rock stars having been a producer in hollywood and > running one of the top 10 studios ...those of us in the community > should at least be aware of the tendency. What tendency is that? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. That the community is not helpful to newbies? You're basing this on observations of one birds-of-feather meeting? I'm sure anyone can come up with isolated examples like this for just about any group. But is it reflective of the larger community? My experience with the Plone community suggests otherwise. > There is nothing wrong with a morons guide and it should be > introduced as an apex type of document not in any diminutive sense. As > to Mr. Ricardo Newberys temptations to only send someone an idiots > guide when he feels particularly snarky. I think he should seriously > rethink his perspective. If that is his true feeling then he really > does look down on some people rather than want to lift them up with a > very informative idiots guide that probably knows how to explain > things in simper terms than he does (otherwise he would not be > considering sending them the guide in the first place). In complexity > there is plenty of fault and richness, and we are all a part of the > fault and the richness, if we participate earnestly. Now, you're just being unfair and twisting my comments to mean something totally opposite to my intent. My point, which should have been obvious, is precisely that I do not "look down" on people in need of help and wish not to insult them by pointing them to a document who's first message is that they're morons. How many people have actually bought a Dummy's guide as a gift for someone? I think it's fair to say not many. The self-deprecating humor implicit in the Dummy's titles generally only works when you're buying the book for yourself. These are self-help manuals after all. If you buy it for someone else you risk the recipient misunderstanding your message... unless this was the message you wanted to communicate. Because of this, when looking for a book to send a beginner, I never send a Dummy's guide. Thankfully, these days there's almost always another alternative. Similarly, if a client or someone on plone-users needs a beginner's guide to Plone, I would probably never send them to a document that starts off by first calling them morons. Even if the document was otherwise pretty good... and that would be a shame as I actually like helping people whenever I can. Ric ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plone-docs@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
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Enovant JPR
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Re: Fwd: Complete Moron's Guide
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On Apr 9, 2008, at 7:03 PM, Ricardo Newbery wrote: > > On Apr 9, 2008, at 4:11 PM, John wrote: > >> Hello all, >> >> I'm the John part of the CMG. Am I a moron, I don't think so but I >> often feel like one when I am trying to get things done in Plone by >> following the docs. For many reasons we came up with the idea of a >> complete morons guide. Using the same terminology as 'idiots guide' >> and 'guides for dummies'. Is that really bad? I don't think so. >> Millions of people have bought these books, can it really be that bad >> an idea? > > > You're confusing branding with content. The reason the original > Dummies guides did well was because they filled a need for simple do- > it-yourself guides on using DOS -- this was the early 90's and easy > beginner guides were nowhere to be found. It's the content that > created the popularity, not the brand. The brand (which includes much > more than just the term "dummy") mostly helped later when they > expanded into other topics. > I don't think I'm confusing branding with content but hey, I could be wrong. I've been wrong before and I will be again. Then life goes on. What I think they did with the Dummies guides is "they filled a need for simple do-it-yourself guides for using DOS" in "the early 90's when easy beginners guides were nowhere to be found." Kinda like what Plone needs. You argue that it was the content that created the popularity but I think it was both the content and the branding idea. It immediately communicated it's purpose and content. That this is 'the one you want to read' because 'this one will work'. We could get into a chicken and egg argument here though. But now these guides are well branded and people know that when you get this dummies or idiots guide, you get something that actually works. The brand was Dummies Guide' and that allowed it to expand into a very successful franchise while in turn building the branding stronger. The fact that they chose a name that branded well via its clarity shows the intelligence of the intent. > >> When I was in Naples at the conf. I went to the birds of a feather >> that Joel had for I think instructors of something to that effect. I >> was disappointed in what I saw there. The people that seemed to be in >> the 'in' click were ignoring others in the room that kept raising >> their hand to speak. This went on for an hour and the guy next to me >> kept raising his hand. Finally I just interrupted everyone and said >> hey, this guy has had his hand up for the last hour and no one is >> being considerate of him. >> >> Why is that? >> >> I think the community is great in many ways, but rock stars are rock >> stars and while I understand it is often just a phase... I have >> experience with rock stars having been a producer in hollywood and >> running one of the top 10 studios ...those of us in the community >> should at least be aware of the tendency. > > > What tendency is that? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. > That the community is not helpful to newbies? You're basing this on > observations of one birds-of-feather meeting? I was only commenting about a single event, not the entire community. It is unfair to assume I am attacking an entire community. And regarding the event in question. I can understand the passion and excitement preventing people from noticing what is going on around them (Hey, there we all were in naples talking Plone, that's exciting) and merely disappointed that they were not doing what good instructors should do and read the room. Nobody is perfect all the time, I was just disappointed in watching it. Your extrapolation is incorrect. > > I'm sure anyone can come up with isolated examples like this for just > about any group. But is it reflective of the larger community? My > experience with the Plone community suggests otherwise. > My experience with the Plone community is that I have met a lot of wonderful and interesting people and that it (the Plone community) endeavors to be helpful within the constraints of a certain lack of, or type of, structure. Understanding that this really is a community of people, not employees. It seems to favor an organic and somewhat cordial atmosphere where most convicts of opinion are worked out in lists such as this one. As far as my experience with Plone instructors, I think Joel Burton is top of the line. I also have experience in professional instruction for the government and feel that if we could get Joel to train trainers, the community would greatly benefit from that. > >> There is nothing wrong with a morons guide and it should be >> introduced as an apex type of document not in any diminutive sense. >> As >> to Mr. Ricardo Newberys temptations to only send someone an idiots >> guide when he feels particularly snarky. I think he should seriously >> rethink his perspective. If that is his true feeling then he really >> does look down on some people rather than want to lift them up with a >> very informative idiots guide that probably knows how to explain >> things in simper terms than he does (otherwise he would not be >> considering sending them the guide in the first place). In complexity >> there is plenty of fault and richness, and we are all a part of the >> fault and the richness, if we participate earnestly. > > > Now, you're just being unfair and twisting my comments to mean > something totally opposite to my intent. My point, which should have > been obvious, is precisely that I do not "look down" on people in need > of help and wish not to insult them by pointing them to a document > who's first message is that they're morons. > I'm sorry. I did not realize that I was "twisting" your "comments to mean something totally opposite" to your "intent". I thought that when you said, "The only times I've ever felt tempted to give someone a "Dummies" guide is when I'm feeling particularly snarky." that you meant "The only times I've ever felt tempted to give someone a "Dummies" guide is when I'm feeling particularly snarky." Did I misread that? I could be wrong, but that line doesn't say to me "I do not look down on people in need of help". It says to me "The only times I've ever felt tempted to give someone a "Dummies" guide is when I'm feeling particularly snarky." Again, I could be wrong, but I don't read it the way you now say you intended it. I think your words are pretty direct and defined. > How many people have actually bought a Dummy's guide as a gift for > someone? I think it's fair to say not many. The self-deprecating > humor implicit in the Dummy's titles generally only works when you're > buying the book for yourself. These are self-help manuals after all. > If you buy it for someone else you risk the recipient misunderstanding > your message... unless this was the message you wanted to > communicate. Because of this, when looking for a book to send a > beginner, I never send a Dummy's guide. Thankfully, these days > there's almost always another alternative. I would not hesitate to buy one for a friend in fact, I'm pretty sure I have in the past, I would not think twice about it. I have also bought various dummies and idiots guides for myself. Just last week I was in San Francisco and was staying at a friends house. He had an idiots guide on a subject I was also familiar with. I browsed though it and once again, as usual, found exceptional content. It was about rock climbing and since he was planning to come and climb with me in the next few weeks I told him to study it well. He has just last year came back form a trip to Everest and was planning to go back to the Himalayas this year as well. He is both an attorney and a biochemist that works in genomics. He did not seem to be insecure about owning such a wonderful book. > > Similarly, if a client or someone on plone-users needs a beginner's > guide to Plone, I would probably never send them to a document that > starts off by first calling them morons. Even if the document was > otherwise pretty good... and that would be a shame as I actually like > helping people whenever I can. Especially due to the branding, one would have to be fairly insecure to actually be offended by receiving or buying an idiots, dummies or even a morons guide. There is nothing wrong with a little conflict of opinion once in a while and I don't mean any offense, But people do get offended and that is expected in the natural course of human interaction once in a while. Hey, maybe I'm just a moron anyway and not making sense at all? It is a very human reality after all. Best, John > > > Ric > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference > Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save > $100. > Use priority code J8TL2D2. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone > _______________________________________________ > Plone-docs mailing list > Plone-docs@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plone-docs@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
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Christian Schneider-10
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Re: Fwd: Complete Moron's Guide
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In reply to this post by Ricardo Newbery-2
Ricardo Newbery schrieb:
> You're confusing branding with content. The reason the original > Dummies guides did well was because they filled a need for simple do- > it-yourself guides on using DOS -- this was the early 90's and easy > beginner guides were nowhere to be found. It's the content that > created the popularity, not the brand. The brand (which includes much > more than just the term "dummy") mostly helped later when they > expanded into other topics. The difference to the current situation with Plone documentation being...? > What tendency is that? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. > That the community is not helpful to newbies? You're basing this on > observations of one birds-of-feather meeting? > > I'm sure anyone can come up with isolated examples like this for just > about any group. But is it reflective of the larger community? My > experience with the Plone community suggests otherwise. If "everyone" can come up with examples like that, how "isolated" are they then anymore??? Indeed most people I know in the community personally CAN come up with ego-stories like that, I think the hypothesis that there's a certain "tendency" of a certain group of people is not based on fiction then... >> There is nothing wrong with a morons guide and it should be >> introduced as an apex type of document not in any diminutive sense. As >> to Mr. Ricardo Newberys temptations to only send someone an idiots >> guide when he feels particularly snarky. I think he should seriously >> rethink his perspective. If that is his true feeling then he really >> does look down on some people rather than want to lift them up with a >> very informative idiots guide that probably knows how to explain >> things in simper terms than he does (otherwise he would not be >> considering sending them the guide in the first place). In complexity >> there is plenty of fault and richness, and we are all a part of the >> fault and the richness, if we participate earnestly. > > > Now, you're just being unfair and twisting my comments to mean > something totally opposite to my intent. My point, which should have > been obvious, is precisely that I do not "look down" on people in need > of help and wish not to insult them by pointing them to a document > who's first message is that they're morons. > > How many people have actually bought a Dummy's guide as a gift for > someone? I have... it was greatly appreciated and even produced a giggle. > I think it's fair to say not many. Now what is that based on...? Sales statistics? Polls? Nope... just your assumption. Mind you I'm not impressed. > The self-deprecating > humor implicit in the Dummy's titles generally only works when you're > buying the book for yourself. These are self-help manuals after all. Looking for documentation on plone.org is not self-help then? You keep thinking that everyone looking for documentation is coming to you in the chat to ask for help and that you are forced to point them to a "moron"-doc. Ever thought that maybe if the branding works and the documents were to be of high quality a lot less people would actually have to ask for help on the channel/lists? And ever thought about the fact that you can't talk for every person out there and that maybe a large part the Plone community would think of the moron's guides as funny? I guess not, you're too busy being convinced you know the absolute truth and prophylactically feel insulted for everyone else. None of the people that have commented on the moron-name have actually said "I would feel insulted" the best you guys can do is say "people might get insulted"... if you had said the first I could see that at least 3 people actually WOULD feel insulted. With the 5 Plonistas I know and have asked about the subject that's still not a majority though... > If you buy it for someone else you risk the recipient misunderstanding > your message... unless this was the message you wanted to > communicate. Because of this, when looking for a book to send a > beginner, I never send a Dummy's guide. Thankfully, these days > there's almost always another alternative. > > Similarly, if a client or someone on plone-users needs a beginner's > guide to Plone, I would probably never send them to a document that > starts off by first calling them morons. Even if the document was > otherwise pretty good... and that would be a shame as I actually like > helping people whenever I can. Well it sure seems like you have very little humour, and hearing that from a German should make you think... at least you've established you're generally a good and helpful person. Christian ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plone-docs@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
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Christian Schneider-10
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Never mind
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In reply to this post by JoAnna Springsteen
Ok, the big amount of negative feedback (from a small amount of people)
led us to the decision that we will host the CMG somewhere else. The following points have influenced the decision: - the technical limitations in PHC and/or the policy for the document section on plone.org don't allow for the concept we want to realize - the fact that one keeps running into "internal server errors" and "bad gateways" when editing stuff on plone.org certainly doesn't help either - we don't think that cleaning up the existing docs is feasible as there is simply too much to clean up and the output would almost certainly not be as good as starting with a new concept - we don't see the restructuring of the doc section on plone.org to be moving anywhere. The "trails" idea was proposed by me more than a year ago, combined with a concept for single-sourcing docs by having a drop-box for people to leave (somewhat formalized) docs in and using the doc team to split the information up and incorporating it into the existing docs. This found some support in the doc team at first but was then brutally shattered by a trio of rockstars, saying that "it would never get anywhere". Seems like the current approach doesn't either, eh? - we really don't feel like wasting our time with battles of the sort "i don't like the word morons, change it" and "you should really not do what you're doing but do what I tell you instead". Not because we don't like to hear what others have to say but because of the fact that the arguments are ill-founded and based on assumptions and taste rather than facts. The discussion about the name and on if we should really do what we're doing cost us about 8 hours (the team all together, not each 10 hours). Had we invested those into the guide itself we would now be able to release the first CMG on settiing up Python 2.4 in a reproducible way... go figure. All in all we feel that there's a severe structural problem in the doc team, as well as in many other teams in the community. We still love Plone and the community in general and that's why we will keep acting as shit-stirrers in the hope of helping build awareness which might then lead to changes. The CMG has been deleted from the doc section, you can stop feeling offended on behalf of others now. Cheers, Christian ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plone-docs@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
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Ricardo Newbery-2
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Re: Fwd: Complete Moron's Guide
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In reply to this post by Enovant JPR
On Apr 9, 2008, at 9:54 PM, Enovant JPR wrote: > I don't think I'm confusing branding with content but hey, I could be > wrong. I've been wrong before and I will be again. Then life goes on. > What I think they did with the Dummies guides is "they filled a need > for simple do-it-yourself guides for using DOS" in "the early 90's > when easy beginners guides were nowhere to be found." Kinda like what > Plone needs. > > You argue that it was the content that created the popularity but I > think it was both the content and the branding idea. It immediately > communicated it's purpose and content. That this is 'the one you want > to read' because 'this one will work'. We could get into a chicken and > egg argument here though. > > But now these guides are well branded and people know that when you > get this dummies or idiots guide, you get something that actually > works. The brand was Dummies Guide' and that allowed it to expand into > a very successful franchise while in turn building the branding > stronger. The fact that they chose a name that branded well via its > clarity shows the intelligence of the intent. We're still talking about a guide in the Plone.org documentation area, right? What purpose does branding serve in this context? >> What tendency is that? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. >> That the community is not helpful to newbies? You're basing this on >> observations of one birds-of-feather meeting? > > I was only commenting about a single event, not the entire community. > It is unfair to assume I am attacking an entire community. And > regarding the event in question. I can understand the passion and > excitement preventing people from noticing what is going on around > them (Hey, there we all were in naples talking Plone, that's exciting) > and merely disappointed that they were not doing what good instructors > should do and read the room. Nobody is perfect all the time, I was > just disappointed in watching it. Your extrapolation is incorrect. Sorry, my mistake. Like I said, I wasn't sure what you were trying to say. I'm still not sure what relevance it has to the current discussion. >>> There is nothing wrong with a morons guide and it should be >>> introduced as an apex type of document not in any diminutive sense. >>> As >>> to Mr. Ricardo Newberys temptations to only send someone an idiots >>> guide when he feels particularly snarky. I think he should seriously >>> rethink his perspective. If that is his true feeling then he really >>> does look down on some people rather than want to lift them up >>> with a >>> very informative idiots guide that probably knows how to explain >>> things in simper terms than he does (otherwise he would not be >>> considering sending them the guide in the first place). In >>> complexity >>> there is plenty of fault and richness, and we are all a part of the >>> fault and the richness, if we participate earnestly. >> >> >> Now, you're just being unfair and twisting my comments to mean >> something totally opposite to my intent. My point, which should have >> been obvious, is precisely that I do not "look down" on people in >> need >> of help and wish not to insult them by pointing them to a document >> who's first message is that they're morons. >> > > I'm sorry. I did not realize that I was "twisting" your "comments to > mean something totally opposite" to your "intent". I thought that when > you said, "The only times I've ever felt tempted to give someone a > "Dummies" guide is when I'm feeling particularly snarky." that you > meant "The only times I've ever felt tempted to give someone a > "Dummies" guide is when I'm feeling particularly snarky." > > Did I misread that? I could be wrong, but that line doesn't say to me > "I do not look down on people in need of help". It says to me "The > only times I've ever felt tempted to give someone a "Dummies" guide is > when I'm feeling particularly snarky." > > Again, I could be wrong, but I don't read it the way you now say you > intended it. I think your words are pretty direct and defined. Please don't troll. You're quoting that sentence out of context. > Personally, I'm -1 on "moron". Makes it hard to point people to it > without inadvertently insulting them. The only times I've ever felt > tempted to give someone a "Dummies" guide is when I'm feeling > particularly snarky. In context, I hope it's clear that my desire is to be able to point people to good documentation without insulting them. That's not to say I've *never* been tempted to insult someone -- I doubt anyone can make that claim -- but I think I can safely say that I've rarely succumbed to such temptations. Ric ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plone-docs@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
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Ricardo Newbery-2
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Re: Fwd: Complete Moron's Guide
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In reply to this post by Christian Schneider-10
On Apr 10, 2008, at 12:01 AM, Christian Schneider wrote: > Ricardo Newbery schrieb: >> You're confusing branding with content. The reason the original >> Dummies guides did well was because they filled a need for simple do- >> it-yourself guides on using DOS -- this was the early 90's and easy >> beginner guides were nowhere to be found. It's the content that >> created the popularity, not the brand. The brand (which includes >> much >> more than just the term "dummy") mostly helped later when they >> expanded into other topics. > > The difference to the current situation with Plone documentation > being...? No difference. The conclusion is the same. The "content" is what needed -- the "branding" isn't going to help. >> What tendency is that? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. >> That the community is not helpful to newbies? You're basing this on >> observations of one birds-of-feather meeting? >> >> I'm sure anyone can come up with isolated examples like this for just >> about any group. But is it reflective of the larger community? My >> experience with the Plone community suggests otherwise. > > If "everyone" can come up with examples like that, how "isolated" are > they then anymore??? Indeed most people I know in the community > personally CAN come up with ego-stories like that, I think the > hypothesis that there's a certain "tendency" of a certain group of > people is not based on fiction then... Now I'm confused. Good cop, bad cop? The original poster, John, clarifies that he believes that the community "endeavors to be helpful" and it "seems to favor an organic and somewhat cordial atmosphere". But you seem to be claiming otherwise. Again, I have to ask... what relevance does any of this have to the current discussion? I'm not going to comment on the rest of this response as it seems unnecessarily combative and I don't see any value in feeding what appears to be creeping toward a pointless flame war. I've expressed my opinion in good faith. You can take or leave it. Ric ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plone-docs@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
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Ricardo Newbery-2
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Re: Never mind
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In reply to this post by Christian Schneider-10
On Apr 10, 2008, at 12:39 AM, Christian Schneider wrote: > All in all we feel that there's a severe structural problem in the doc > team, as well as in many other teams in the community. We still love > Plone and the community in general and that's why we will keep > acting as > shit-stirrers in the hope of helping build awareness which might then > lead to changes. > The CMG has been deleted from the doc section, you can stop feeling > offended on behalf of others now. For the record, I'm not on the doc team. But from my vantage point I don't see any severe structural problem. The polite exchange of feedback, even when it's negative, is not a sign of anything but an engaged community. Interestingly enough, if the CMG is hosted elsewhere, you may actually have a better argument in favor of some provocative branding. Ric ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plone-docs@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
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Christian Schneider-10
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Re: Fwd: Complete Moron's Guide
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In reply to this post by Ricardo Newbery-2
Ricardo Newbery schrieb:
> No difference. The conclusion is the same. The "content" is what > needed -- the "branding" isn't going to help. Again, how do you know that? I think it is going to help (note that I have the decency to write "I think" and do not formulate an absolute statement). > Now I'm confused. Good cop, bad cop? The original poster, John, > clarifies that he believes that the community "endeavors to be > helpful" and it "seems to favor an organic and somewhat cordial > atmosphere". But you seem to be claiming otherwise. Again, I have to > ask... what relevance does any of this have to the current discussion? Are you referring to what I wrote? I don't see the connection... and even if I would see a connection I guess I would be entitled to my own opinion. > I'm not going to comment on the rest of this response as it seems > unnecessarily combative and I don't see any value in feeding what > appears to be creeping toward a pointless flame war. I've expressed > my opinion in good faith. You can take or leave it. Right, so I won't comment on you not commenting. Cheers, Christian ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Plone-docs mailing list Plone-docs@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-docs |
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