Buildout for a educational Plone site

[ajung]

Hi,

I've created a buildout configuration for Plone 3:

<http://www.plone4universities.org/Members/ajungtest/buildout.cfg>

This will create a standard Plone 3 buildout plus some additional products
like CMFBibAT, FileSystemStorage, FacultyStaffDirectory, Reflecto,
FCKEditor and TextIndexNG3 and some more. In addition it provides support
for storing files directly on the filesystem instead of using the ZODB
(using FileSystemStorage).

How to use it:

 - download the buildout.cfg
 - run 'buildout'

That's it.

Better documentation and better visibility on the plone4uni website will
follow soon.

Andreas

--
ZOPYX Ltd. & Co. KG - Charlottenstr. 37/1 - 72070 Tübingen - Germany
Web: www.zopyx.com - Email: [hidden email] - Phone +49 - 7071 - 793376
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Stuttgart, Handelsregister A 381535
Geschäftsführer/Gesellschafter: ZOPYX Limited, Birmingham, UK
------------------------------------------------------------------------
E-Publishing, Python, Zope & Plone development, Consulting


_______________________________________________
Educational mailing list
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[Nate Aune]

Hi Andreas,

Thanks for taking the initiative to create a buildout. However, I'm
not sure about some of the products that you've chosen to include.

# ATSchemaExtender

This one is particularly nasty because it wipes out the entire
Archetypes directory that comes with stock Plone, and replaces it with
another one. I'm concerned about migration issues, if someone wants to
remove the product. Now they have to try to recover the original
Archetypes directory?

# TextIndexNG 3.2.1

Doesn't Plone3 already provide for full-text searching of Word/PDF
docs?  It seems like adding another dependency such as TXNG3 is
unnecessary when Plone3 has this out-of-the-box.
I realize that TXNG3 has a lot of other advanced functionality, but
I'm guessing that for most educational institutions, these are not
must-have features.

# FileSystemStorage (enabled for File type)

While FSS is an excellent product, I would be wary of promoting this
product when a future version of Plone is expected to use Zope's
built-in blob support in the form of plone.app.blob. If universities
start using FSS, there could be significant cost in migrating to
another external file solution.

# ZWiki 0.6

Again, ZWiki is an excellent product, but Plone 3 now provides a very
capable Wiki solution in the form of wicked. This is likely to be
sufficient for most universities needs. I think we want to be careful
about confusing people with too many choices. Let them try out the
built-in wiki that comes with Plone 3 first, and then if they find
it's not sufficient, they can always upgrade later to ZWiki.

# FCKEditor 2.4.6

I'm sure FCKEditor has some distinct advantages over Kupu, but why
replace the default editor with another one, when most universities
are going to get along just fine with Kupu? Kupu is also more tightly
integrated with Plone, whereas with FCKEditor, there will be features
that are missing that Kupu already provides. Why confuse the users
with yet another choice?

I guess the point I'm trying to make, is let's make a buildout that
leverages the existing features of Plone 3, and not add any redundant
and potentially intrusive products unless they add real immediate
value for the people who are going to be evaluating the product.

Sure, some power users will prefer TXNG3 over Plone's default
full-text indexing, and some will prefer ZWiki over wicked, and some
will prefer FCKEditor over Kupu, but why include all of these  in a
"base" distribution of Plone?

I could see these add-ons being included in a "advanced / power user"
edition, but I think for now, the focus should be on letting people
try out Plone as it comes out-of-the-box, with add-ons that don't try
to replace existing functionality, but augment or enhance the core CMS
with features suitable for an educational institution, such as
FacultyStaffDirectory, CMFBibliographyAT and PloneFormGen. None of
these products have many dependencies, and can be uninstalled without
any consequences.

While I can completely understand your desire to promote your own
products (and they are indeed excellent products), I think we should
weigh that against the needs of the greater educational community.

Nate

On 12/21/07, Andreas Jung <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I've created a buildout configuration for Plone 3:
>
> <http://www.plone4universities.org/Members/ajungtest/buildout.cfg>
>
> This will create a standard Plone 3 buildout plus some additional products
> like CMFBibAT, FileSystemStorage, FacultyStaffDirectory, Reflecto,
> FCKEditor and TextIndexNG3 and some more. In addition it provides support
> for storing files directly on the filesystem instead of using the ZODB
> (using FileSystemStorage).
>
> How to use it:
>
>  - download the buildout.cfg
>  - run 'buildout'
>
> That's it.
>
> Better documentation and better visibility on the plone4uni website will
> follow soon.
>
> Andreas
>
> --
> ZOPYX Ltd. & Co. KG - Charlottenstr. 37/1 - 72070 Tübingen - Germany
> Web: www.zopyx.com - Email: [hidden email] - Phone +49 - 7071 - 793376
> Registergericht: Amtsgericht Stuttgart, Handelsregister A 381535
> Geschäftsführer/Gesellschafter: ZOPYX Limited, Birmingham, UK
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> E-Publishing, Python, Zope & Plone development, Consulting
>
> _______________________________________________
> Educational mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/educational
>
>
>

--
Nate Aune - [hidden email]
company: http://jazkarta.com
blog: http://nateaune.com
twitter: http://twitter.com/natea

_______________________________________________
Educational mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/educational

[ajung]

Hola Nate,

--On 22. Dezember 2007 14:48:01 -0600 Nate Aune <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Andreas,
>
> Thanks for taking the initiative to create a buildout. However, I'm
> not sure about some of the products that you've chosen to include.

The bundle contains staff that I am using for deployment to my educational
customers. I am working successfully with several institutions in this
field...from chairs to institutes to universities).

>
># ATSchemaExtender
>
> This one is particularly nasty because it wipes out the entire
> Archetypes directory that comes with stock Plone, and replaces it with
> another one. I'm concerned about migration issues, if someone wants to
> remove the product. Now they have to try to recover the original
> Archetypes directory?

This was a culprit of the old FSD version (which is now using
at.schemaextender)

>
># TextIndexNG 3.2.1
>
> Doesn't Plone3 already provide for full-text searching of Word/PDF
> docs?  It seems like adding another dependency such as TXNG3 is
> unnecessary when Plone3 has this out-of-the-box.
> I realize that TXNG3 has a lot of other advanced functionality, but
> I'm guessing that for most educational institutions, these are not
> must-have features.

A common requirement are multi-lingual websites...and Plone does not
support
language-dependent indexing of Plone content (together with LP).

>
># FileSystemStorage (enabled for File type)
>
> While FSS is an excellent product, I would be wary of promoting this
> product when a future version of Plone is expected to use Zope's
> built-in blob support in the form of plone.app.blob. If universities
> start using FSS, there could be significant cost in migrating to
> another external file solution.

Right now we have no official Plone solution with blob support and
no official released Zope version with blob support. I don't promote
unreleased staff. I promote solutions that are known to work and that
were reliable in former projects. This conservative strategy is much better
than using cutting-edge software - especially stuff that is not integrated
into the Plone core so far. In addition using non-Plone-core add-ons were
always a PITA during migrations. If plone.app.blob becomes more mature and
if it should go into the Plone core, let's use it...but for now I consider
it risk deploying Plone sites on unofficial core extensions (especially it
seems to require a special Zope 2.10 version with blob support). The
experience (especially the migration experience from some universities
using Plone 2.X so far) tells us: not staying mainstream -> big migration
fun (or call it pain).

>
># ZWiki 0.6
>
> Again, ZWiki is an excellent product, but Plone 3 now provides a very
> capable Wiki solution in the form of wicked. This is likely to be
> sufficient for most universities needs.

No. Especially when you work with people with a scientific background they
usually work with ZWiki and extensions like LaTeXWiki.

> I think we want to be careful
> about confusing people with too many choices. Let them try out the
> built-in wiki that comes with Plone 3 first, and then if they find
> it's not sufficient, they can always upgrade later to ZWiki.

As with TXNG: it's optional.

>
># FCKEditor 2.4.6
>
> I'm sure FCKEditor has some distinct advantages over Kupu, but why
> replace the default editor with another one, when most universities
> are going to get along just fine with Kupu? Kupu is also more tightly
> integrated with Plone, whereas with FCKEditor, there will be features
> that are missing that Kupu already provides. Why confuse the users
> with yet another choice?

No single customer  is actually  happy with Kupu. FCKeditor works fine with
Plone 3 and there is no functionality missing. FCKEditor just works and the
site administrator and the user has the freedom to choose either Kupu or
FCKeditor. You argue: don't confuse users with multiple editors, I argue:
don't distract users with a toy editor. If you like Kupu, take it. Most
professional Plone users don't like Kupu.

>
> I guess the point I'm trying to make, is let's make a buildout that
> leverages the existing features of Plone 3, and not add any redundant
> and potentially intrusive products unless they add real immediate
> value for the people who are going to be evaluating the product.
>

Sorry but I have to disagree. The buildout contains software that is
actually used successfully in educational deployments.

> Sure, some power users will prefer TXNG3 over Plone's default
> full-text indexing, and some will prefer ZWiki over wicked, and some
> will prefer FCKEditor over Kupu, but why include all of these  in a
> "base" distribution of Plone?

See above. The quick installer give the administrator the choice what
to install.

>
> I could see these add-ons being included in a "advanced / power user"
> edition, but I think for now, the focus should be on letting people
> try out Plone as it comes out-of-the-box, with add-ons that don't try
> to replace existing functionality, but augment or enhance the core CMS
> with features suitable for an educational institution, such as
> FacultyStaffDirectory, CMFBibliographyAT and PloneFormGen. None of
> these products have many dependencies, and can be uninstalled without
> any consequences.

Sorry Nate but I am not working on trialware :-) This is about doing
professional software for professional customers and most universities
or related institutions are not interested in trialware...they want working
solutions :-)

>
> While I can completely understand your desire to promote your own
> products (and they are indeed excellent products),

Huh? Except TXNG there no other product from my side. So there is
nothing about promotion.

> I think we should
> weigh that against the needs of the greater educational community.

I have contacts to most German universities and related institutions that
work with Plone and some of them are customers of mine. So I am aware of
their needs :-) In addition we have contacts to universities through the
German Zope User Group (DZUG) which has a special committee to deal with
universities using Zope and their needs. I doubt that the needs of
other universities are much different.

Happy Xmas,
Andreas



_______________________________________________
Educational mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/educational

[Kurt Bendl]

Hola and hello there!

(Typing one-handed w a 3 month old in my lap...) This is all really good info.
I'm thinking there is no single solution, but configuration options
are always good.  So, I say, "Bring on the buildouts!"  I'd bet many
universities (and more explicitly those of us who work at
universities) can start from this buildout. That's not to say there
can't be two or more "base" buildout configurations. Bring 'em on!

Moreover, we'll likely use them as a starting point, and build from
there. If I'm not mistaken, I can simply add-in and comment out parts,
productdistros, and eggs with associated recipes, etc..  And on top of
that, this is exactly the kind of discussion that any of us need/want
to make the best decisions we can about what we choose to include.

Thank you Andreas and Nate! You guys rule. I'm always in awe of the
work you guys produce.

Since I'm using a prehistoric blob variant that we deployed over two
years ago, I'm expecting lots of "fun" <pain> as we look at what it's
going to take to migrate to Plone 3x in the coming months.

Thanks!

  -Kurt


On 12/22/07, Andreas Jung <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hola Nate,
>
> --On 22. Dezember 2007 14:48:01 -0600 Nate Aune <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Andreas,
> >
> > Thanks for taking the initiative to create a buildout. However, I'm
> > not sure about some of the products that you've chosen to include.
>
> The bundle contains staff that I am using for deployment to my educational
> customers. I am working successfully with several institutions in this
> field...from chairs to institutes to universities).
>
> >
> ># ATSchemaExtender
> >
> > This one is particularly nasty because it wipes out the entire
> > Archetypes directory that comes with stock Plone, and replaces it with
> > another one. I'm concerned about migration issues, if someone wants to
> > remove the product. Now they have to try to recover the original
> > Archetypes directory?
>
> This was a culprit of the old FSD version (which is now using
> at.schemaextender)
>
> >
> ># TextIndexNG 3.2.1
> >
> > Doesn't Plone3 already provide for full-text searching of Word/PDF
> > docs?  It seems like adding another dependency such as TXNG3 is
> > unnecessary when Plone3 has this out-of-the-box.
> > I realize that TXNG3 has a lot of other advanced functionality, but
> > I'm guessing that for most educational institutions, these are not
> > must-have features.
>
> A common requirement are multi-lingual websites...and Plone does not
> support
> language-dependent indexing of Plone content (together with LP).
>
> >
> ># FileSystemStorage (enabled for File type)
> >
> > While FSS is an excellent product, I would be wary of promoting this
> > product when a future version of Plone is expected to use Zope's
> > built-in blob support in the form of plone.app.blob. If universities
> > start using FSS, there could be significant cost in migrating to
> > another external file solution.
>
> Right now we have no official Plone solution with blob support and
> no official released Zope version with blob support. I don't promote
> unreleased staff. I promote solutions that are known to work and that
> were reliable in former projects. This conservative strategy is much better
> than using cutting-edge software - especially stuff that is not integrated
> into the Plone core so far. In addition using non-Plone-core add-ons were
> always a PITA during migrations. If plone.app.blob becomes more mature and
> if it should go into the Plone core, let's use it...but for now I consider
> it risk deploying Plone sites on unofficial core extensions (especially it
> seems to require a special Zope 2.10 version with blob support). The
> experience (especially the migration experience from some universities
> using Plone 2.X so far) tells us: not staying mainstream -> big migration
> fun (or call it pain).
>
> >
> ># ZWiki 0.6
> >
> > Again, ZWiki is an excellent product, but Plone 3 now provides a very
> > capable Wiki solution in the form of wicked. This is likely to be
> > sufficient for most universities needs.
>
> No. Especially when you work with people with a scientific background they
> usually work with ZWiki and extensions like LaTeXWiki.
>
> > I think we want to be careful
> > about confusing people with too many choices. Let them try out the
> > built-in wiki that comes with Plone 3 first, and then if they find
> > it's not sufficient, they can always upgrade later to ZWiki.
>
> As with TXNG: it's optional.
>
> >
> ># FCKEditor 2.4.6
> >
> > I'm sure FCKEditor has some distinct advantages over Kupu, but why
> > replace the default editor with another one, when most universities
> > are going to get along just fine with Kupu? Kupu is also more tightly
> > integrated with Plone, whereas with FCKEditor, there will be features
> > that are missing that Kupu already provides. Why confuse the users
> > with yet another choice?
>
> No single customer  is actually  happy with Kupu. FCKeditor works fine with
> Plone 3 and there is no functionality missing. FCKEditor just works and the
> site administrator and the user has the freedom to choose either Kupu or
> FCKeditor. You argue: don't confuse users with multiple editors, I argue:
> don't distract users with a toy editor. If you like Kupu, take it. Most
> professional Plone users don't like Kupu.
>
> >
> > I guess the point I'm trying to make, is let's make a buildout that
> > leverages the existing features of Plone 3, and not add any redundant
> > and potentially intrusive products unless they add real immediate
> > value for the people who are going to be evaluating the product.
> >
>
> Sorry but I have to disagree. The buildout contains software that is
> actually used successfully in educational deployments.
>
> > Sure, some power users will prefer TXNG3 over Plone's default
> > full-text indexing, and some will prefer ZWiki over wicked, and some
> > will prefer FCKEditor over Kupu, but why include all of these  in a
> > "base" distribution of Plone?
>
> See above. The quick installer give the administrator the choice what
> to install.
>
> >
> > I could see these add-ons being included in a "advanced / power user"
> > edition, but I think for now, the focus should be on letting people
> > try out Plone as it comes out-of-the-box, with add-ons that don't try
> > to replace existing functionality, but augment or enhance the core CMS
> > with features suitable for an educational institution, such as
> > FacultyStaffDirectory, CMFBibliographyAT and PloneFormGen. None of
> > these products have many dependencies, and can be uninstalled without
> > any consequences.
>
> Sorry Nate but I am not working on trialware :-) This is about doing
> professional software for professional customers and most universities
> or related institutions are not interested in trialware...they want working
> solutions :-)
>
> >
> > While I can completely understand your desire to promote your own
> > products (and they are indeed excellent products),
>
> Huh? Except TXNG there no other product from my side. So there is
> nothing about promotion.
>
> > I think we should
> > weigh that against the needs of the greater educational community.
>
> I have contacts to most German universities and related institutions that
> work with Plone and some of them are customers of mine. So I am aware of
> their needs :-) In addition we have contacts to universities through the
> German Zope User Group (DZUG) which has a special committee to deal with
> universities using Zope and their needs. I doubt that the needs of
> other universities are much different.
>
> Happy Xmas,
> Andreas
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Educational mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/educational
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
Educational mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/educational

[ajung]

--On 23. Dezember 2007 13:17:25 -0500 Kurt Bendl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hola and hello there!
>
> (Typing one-handed w a 3 month old in my lap...) This is all really good
> info. I'm thinking there is no single solution, but configuration options
> are always good.  So, I say, "Bring on the buildouts!"  I'd bet many
> universities (and more explicitly those of us who work at
> universities) can start from this buildout. That's not to say there
> can't be two or more "base" buildout configurations. Bring 'em on!
>

Yup, you can easily press the delete line button within your favorite
editor in order to tailor the buildout.cfg down :-)

One more general remark about buildout: I don't think that buildout
is the tool that new users will use for trying Plone out. It is a tool
for developers and experienced users. Installers are much more important
for this audiences....for course only my personal opinion :)

Andreas

_______________________________________________
Educational mailing list
[hidden email]
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[Graham Perrin]

Andreas Jung-5 wrote:

I don't think that buildout is the tool that new users will use for trying Plone out. It is a tool for developers and experienced users. Installers are much more important for this audiences....for course only my personal opinion :)

At this point in time, I tend to agree. I gave Plone 1.x and 2.1.x serious consideration but for various reasons didn't use Plone for production service until version 3. For all three versions, ease of installation was most important (and significant learning curves followed). Results of the 1.x installer for Mac OS X were truly excellent, it was this that got me hooked on Plone.

Yup, you can easily press the delete line button within your favorite editor in order to tailor the buildout.cfg down :-)

I sense assumptions that over time, buildout may become a preferred way of doing things — not only for those with more experience, but also for novice administrators: experimenters.

So, I think it should be habit, good practice to include — with each buildout — an unmissable overview ReadMe.txt that makes explicit any significant issues (migration or otherwise) that may arise from use of selected non-core products.

(Don't assume that the administrator will pay great attention to documentation for each individual product.)

Regards

Graham Perrin, Project/Media Development Officer
CENTRIM - the Centre for Research in Innovation Management
<http://www.brighton.ac.uk/centrim/>
[phone]