Back to the basics: improving user experience

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Michael Zanetti

Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience

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On Thursday 16 October 2008 23:22:26 t m wrote:

> Who cares a <beep>  about wifi , speed, gps, accelerometer, booting time
> when the phone itself doesn't work.

I agree about <beep>, speed, gps, accelerometer. But I would say a little bit
of faster booting would be necessary in these early days where you have to
reboot quite often. I don't neet a bootup time of 5 seconds yet but 3-4
minutes is definitely too long just to reactivate some peace of hard- of
software.

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Guillaume Chereau

Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience

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On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 05:00 -0700, dant wrote:
> So maybe we could make one big(ger) app
> (remember that there is quite big amount of ram there) responsible for
> calling, contacts, sms and all that phonny stuff and keep it all the time in
> memory with all needed library (static build?)
There are a few projects doing this :
tichy [0], zhone [1], and future paroli [2] are all single process apps.

charlie/guillaume

[0] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Tichy
[1] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Zhone
[2] http://code.google.com/p/paroli/


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John Lee

Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience

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On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 01:01:27PM +0200, Riccardo Centra wrote:
> Why Qtopia? I prefer that you release the next minor update ( aka 2008.10 )
> and focus all works on paroli and tichy.
> The new framework is pretty usable and stable.

Our plan is to bring qtopia to a more usable state then it currently
is before the next big thing - fso + tichy (?) + paroli , but
enhancements which could be brought to the new software stack will get
higher priority.  People (including myself) still need to use the
phone before that.  :)


- John

> 2008/10/16 John Lee <[hidden email]>
>
> > On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 05:15:59PM +0800, W.Kenworthy wrote:
> > > 2008.9 + updates
> > >
> > > A phone that works:
> > >       reliably make and receive calls
> > >       reliably make and receive sms's
> > >
> > > At the moment, totally losing sms messages (phone sometimes
> > > hangs/crashes when one comes in) or not waking up if suspended  when one
> > > comes in means that its almost unusable as a phone.
> > >
> > > It often takes several boots before the pin dialog comes up. If you
> > > forget while waiting and it does come up but its awhile until you get to
> > > it, it will hang so you have to reboot anyway.  Sometimes restarting X
> > > helps, but not always
> > >
> > >
> > > Stability:
> > > My average in normal usage is at least two boots a day due to crashes,
> > > and often extra rebooting to check if an sms comes in (sometimes they
> > > will only show on fresh re-registration.  Leaving the phone on and
> > > registered for hours doesnt seem to help - not sure how vodafone
> > > australia takes to retry messages but surely its less that 12 hours.
> > > The only way to stop crashes is not to use the thing! No GPS, no
> > > wireless, no phone calls, and definitely never send/receive an sms :)
> > >
> > > I suspect the event/0 thread is at the root of a lot of this so I am
> > > waiting a fix for that.
> > >
> > > I dont think I am alone in this - hopefully the new focus means that
> > > these issues can be dealt with.
> > >
> > > I am a little concerned though that you think things like boot time is
> > > important enough to mention, but not basic issues like being able to
> > > reliably make a phone call.  Though a faster boot means less time wasted
> > > going through multiple bootups to get the thing registered. :)
> >
> > I would like to explain a bit more about this:
> >
> > We're not the only team that will work on the new focus.  Stability
> > should be greatly improved by the effort of FSO, and boot time is just
> > another thing we would also like to improve.
> >
> > At the same time, we will work on fixing qtopia bugs as well, so if
> > the problems you have is in trac already, we will look into them.
> >
> >
> > - John

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Yves MAHE

Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience

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In reply to this post by Marco Trevisan (Treviño)
Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote:

> Leonti Bielski wrote:
>> But what about PIM stack?
>> There is a project from GSOC, but it's either dead or just being
>> developed really slow. What if some time OM is spending on ASU get to
>> develop PIM stack for FSO? Or even make a 0.9 release of FSO even
>> earlier as planned?
>
> This is what I'd like to write. But there's a think I'd like to remark
> here too (I've already said on the devel list), imho we should move to a
> PIM stack that is compatible with the Qtopia one not to break
> compatibility and support for multi-boot also from an high level
> application point of view.
> That PIM stack is quite good and accessible with easy instruments
> (practically all is done with a sqlite3 database, and the same can be
> easily doable with new python stack too).
>
> Imho this should be a key point. It's quite obvious that a good PIM
> stack is vital for a portable device.
>

+1 to use the Qtopia sqlite3 database for the PIM (it may be a
recommendation of the community) and develop one (or many) python stack
outside of the "low-level" stack ( suspend/resume, GSM, GPRS, SMS, GPS,
sounds, screen, accelerometers)


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Florian Hackenberger

Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience

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On Thursday 16 October 2008, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote:
> Imho this should be a key point. It's quite obvious that a good PIM
> stack is vital for a portable device.

Have you considered using akonadi? The KDE guys are quite approachable
and IMHO they have done their homework with akonadi. You should really
talk to them before taking a decision regarding the PIM framework.
Adapters for various existing frontends could be written quite easily
AFAIK.

Cheers,
        Florian

--
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Dale Maggee

Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience

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My 1/50th of a dollar...

A lot of people have made some really good points and suggestions here.
Here's what I'd like to see personally, in order of priority, with
absolutely no consideration given to feasability or difficulty what I
want ;) :

1. rock-solid phone / sms functionality, with rock-solid suspend and
resume.  I know that these are two seperate issues, but  I see Suspend
and resume as being a neccessary part of having it work as a daily-use,
reliable phone (for the simple reason of battery life). Having it as a
solid, daily-use phone is my biggest priority.

2. This also comes into the 'daily use phone' category: the echo /
volume issues. Since settings which work for some people don't seem to
work for others, I think that one way to sort this out might be to
create a sensibly-labelled volume control (preferrably as a
finger-usable GUI) which has the ability to load and store states. This
has been suggested elsewhere

3. Sort out the Distros / Software stack.
I agree with the comments that the FSO integration should be sped up.
FSO seems very nice and solid to me, but unfortunately it's incomplete
in terms of using it as a phone. The PIM database is the biggest thing
missing here. I think that bringing the FSO framework into the main
distro should be a priority,  because this will allow you guys to
organise your efforts better and remove duplication - why continue to
work on something that's going to be phased out in X months?

4. Calendar / Alarm / PIM.

I'd call this 'secondary phone functionality', in that it's the kind of
functionality you see in pretty much any phone out there. A Reliable
calendar application which lets you set meetings, reminders etc, and an
alarm. The alarms / reminder alerts should work reliably, even if the
Neo is suspended (i.e: come out of suspend mode to sound alarm or show a
reminder). With regards to PIM, I'd like to see a way to synchronise my
Neo's PIM database with some other source, like ActiveSync does. This
doesn't have to be incredibly complicated, maybe just dumping the PIM
database to a vcf file. The reason I want this is that whenever I flash
a new distro I need to re-import my contacts, and I inevitably lose
contacts which I've added to the Neo but which aren't anywhere else.
Perhaps there's already a solution to this.

5. Pretty comes later.

Stop caring about themes and snazzy visual effects. While everyone can
agree that pretty is a nice thing, Stability should be the priority, not
prettiness. Don't bother making themes and whatnot, just make the
underlying software work reliably, then provide a way for us to make our
own themes, and let the community worry about making themes. Once
everything is solid, then you can worry about how pretty it is.

Regards,
-Dale

John Lee wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Like Wolfgang said in
> http://n2.nabble.com/Weekly-Engineering-News-41-2008-td1336450.html
>
> We assembled a team to focus on improving the user experience.  Here
> is our todo list at the moment:
>
> * Reduce boot time.
>
> * Optimize the touch screen driver on freerunner for finger usage.
>
> * A generic python loader to enhance the start up time of python
>   scripts.
>
> * Work with system team to improve suspend/resume user experience.
>
>
> I would like to ask the community:
>
> What do you want us to work on?
>
>
> The idea is
>
> * We improve the current stack, not creating new features.
>
> * Prefer stuffs which could be brought over to gta03 instead of
>   gta02/om2008 specific.
>
> * won't work on om2007 stack.
>
>
> So, tell us what you want, then the coding monkeys will start working!
> :)
>
>
> Regards,
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>  


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Michele Renda

Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience

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Also if I don't use KDE, I'd like to see akonadi as Pim managed...

Our mission must to be to don't replicate the work done by other people,
and KDE person did a good job

Florian Hackenberger wrote:

> On Thursday 16 October 2008, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote:
>> Imho this should be a key point. It's quite obvious that a good PIM
>> stack is vital for a portable device.
>
> Have you considered using akonadi? The KDE guys are quite approachable
> and IMHO they have done their homework with akonadi. You should really
> talk to them before taking a decision regarding the PIM framework.
> Adapters for various existing frontends could be written quite easily
> AFAIK.
>
> Cheers,
> Florian
>


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Nicola Mfb

Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience

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2008/10/16 John Lee <[hidden email]>
Hi,

Like Wolfgang said in
http://n2.nabble.com/Weekly-Engineering-News-41-2008-td1336450.html

We assembled a team to focus on improving the user experience.  Here
is our todo list at the moment:

* Reduce boot time.

Low priority, if the phone is stable users may suspend/resume and reboot rarely.

* Optimize the touch screen driver on freerunner for finger usage.

Medium priority 

* A generic python loader to enhance the start up time of python
 scripts.

My two cents, low priority a 400 Mhz CPU is actually suffering for a lot of staff coded in Python? I do not like to see other os based device flying with the same CPU or lower.

* Work with system team to improve suspend/resume user experience.

High priority.
 
I would like to ask the community:

What do you want us to work on?

The high priority is to have a rock stable kernel with perfect suspend/resume cycles. This will affect *all* distro and external efforts.
Qtopia will be more stable with this, and the phone will be ready for a daily use soon.

The second high priority step is to enhance FSO team and resources, we are all waiting for a 1.0 rock version.

As openmoko resources and peoples are not infinite, and as the above two steps requires high knowledge and insider vision, those should be the focus for *Openmoko official stuff*.

With a rock solid kernel/fso community may contribute easily in writing applications.

Drive the community or allocate some resource to define/project/analize and may be code a definitive Dialer for FSO or show your plan, actual docs says that zhone is only a test application for FSO, paroli is an obscure project.

Stop asu and qtopia on x11 development, it's only a waste of time, our FR are multi-boot capable so Qtopia may help peoples waiting for all that.

Merge the tree back to oe, and ask them to do a new stable branch if org.openembedded.dev development is too fast!

Best Regards

    Nicola









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Cédric Berger

Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience

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On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 20:20, Stefan Monnier <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Suspend is quite good at the moment, but when the display is 'blanked'
> and the system is not in suspend, maybe pressing the 'power' button
> could wake up the screen instead. Now it wakes up and immediately
> suspends.

100% agreement.  The "suspend on power button" is completely useless
for me.  The machine suspends automatically anyway, so I don't need to
waste the precious few buttons we have on rare operations like
"explicitly request the machine to go to sleep".

I do not agree here, it is an important use case for me to easily force suspend.
ex : to put phone in pocket. At the very least I must be able to immediatly lock screen, but it should then be able to automatically go to sleep even if screen keeps being touched (in pocket...). Wait time before blanking screen  / going to suspend should also be decreased when screen is locked.

With my dumb day to day phone, there no real suspend, but I can immediatly lock it via a long press to '#'. I do not have to look at the screen to do that, and once it is locked it quickly shut off screen backlight.


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William Kenworthy

Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience

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Did a quick google but couldnt figure out what it uses as storage.
Hopefully not a relational database - they have their uses and qtopia
has conclusively proven this is *NOT* it :)

BillK

On Fri, 2008-10-17 at 09:53 +0200, Florian Hackenberger wrote:

> On Thursday 16 October 2008, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote:
> > Imho this should be a key point. It's quite obvious that a good PIM
> > stack is vital for a portable device.
>
> Have you considered using akonadi? The KDE guys are quite approachable
> and IMHO they have done their homework with akonadi. You should really
> talk to them before taking a decision regarding the PIM framework.
> Adapters for various existing frontends could be written quite easily
> AFAIK.
>
> Cheers,
> Florian
>
--
William Kenworthy <[hidden email]>
Home in Perth!


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Gothnet

Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience

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Hi all,

My thoughts on this (as a software dev that hasn't yet got into the freerunner software development, despite best intentions) -

1. Basic phone functions:

It needs to work as a phone, currently it doesn't wake up from suspend in time for more than 2 rings before the other party is diverted to voicemail.
The sound quality is terrible and usually echos back at the other party.

2. Battery life:

The battery in the gta02 is not a small capacity battery, far from it in fact, why does it only last a few hours?
At best I get about 12 hours out of it.

3. Stability

Resuming from suspend sometimes just doesn't happen, and nothing I do wakes it up.


Given 2 and 3, a quicker boot time would be nice, but if we could fix the things that mean I have to boot it so often it would be helpful.

The only other thing that springs to mind is that it would also be good if the settings (screen brightness etc) were stored somewhere so I don't have to redo them every boot.

As far as I'm concerned, anything else is just candy. Other functions (GPS, GPRS, WiFi etc etc) would be nice and should be expected as part of any decent phone package, but right now the absolute basics (and I mean absolute basics) need work.
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra

Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience

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On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 03:54:47AM -0700, Gothnet wrote:
> Given 2 and 3, a quicker boot time would be nice, but if we could fix the
> things that mean I have to boot it so often it would be helpful.

I can't help much in the other things we'd all like to happen, but after
a cursory (and cursing) introspection through the rcS.d and rc5.d
scripts, I saw lots of room for improvement.

As I get home after work I'll get back to completing my "timestamping"
of scripts to get a gist of where are easy, hard and impossible wins.

One easy win: WTF is xserver-nodm recursively calling itself (only one
step of recursion but 2s are lost in it)

Rui

--
All Hail Discordia!
Today is Setting Orange, the 71st day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3174
+ No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown
+ Whatever you do will be insignificant,
| but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi
+ So let's do it...?

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Mark Weinem

PIM software (was: Back to the basics: improving user experience)

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William Kenworthy:
> Did a quick google but couldnt figure out what it uses as storage.
> Hopefully not a relational database - they have their uses and qtopia
> has conclusively proven this is *NOT* it :)

Yes, the do indeed use MySQL!


Regards, Mark Weinem


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William Kenworthy

Re: PIM software (was: Back to the basics: improving user experience)

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:(

On Fri, 2008-10-17 at 14:02 +0200, Mark Weinem wrote:

> William Kenworthy:
> > Did a quick google but couldnt figure out what it uses as storage.
> > Hopefully not a relational database - they have their uses and qtopia
> > has conclusively proven this is *NOT* it :)
>
> Yes, the do indeed use MySQL!
>
>
> Regards, Mark Weinem
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openmoko community mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
--
William Kenworthy <[hidden email]>
Home in Perth!


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Christ van Willegen

Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience

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Perhaps another idea to lighten the core developers' load...

Invest a little time (a day or so?) to properly set up a VMWare image
that can be downloaded by developers that want to help in any way.

Make it easy to update sources, and easy to build both kernel and
userland stuff, and also to report patches. This way, developers don't
need to invest loads of time into setting up stuff, if it can be done
in one fell swoop.

I, for one, would love to be able to run a VMWare image and dive into
developing and debugging/enhancing.

Christ van Willegen

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arne anka

Re: PIM software (was: Back to the basics: improving user experience)

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In reply to this post by Mark Weinem
>> Did a quick google but couldnt figure out what it uses as storage.
>> Hopefully not a relational database - they have their uses and qtopia
>> has conclusively proven this is *NOT* it :)
>
> Yes, the do indeed use MySQL!


well, if it is supposed to be a part of kde, the use case is clearly a  
desktop computer.
i don't think it would fit a small thing like the neo.


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Crane, Matthew

RE: Back to the basics: improving user experience

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In reply to this post by Vasco Névoa

I think the phone is getting quite usable, and well there is a long road ahead I don't think anybody should feel bad about how far it has come.


Recent post on engadget re: RIM's Bold.

"ptrcd003 @ Oct 17th 2008 1:08AM

tell me about it. Crappy GPS that rarely, if ever, works (triangulation never works unless you download google maps) . Constant spinning clock, sometimes preventing me from answering calls for up to 5 minutes. Totally unstable OS (have missed class due to alarm clock app crashing during the night). The browser is also relatively slow, and the build quality should be much higher for a phone of this price (sides creak, back cover moves around.) This isn't a single occurence, my friend has the same phone with the same problems. So be glad it isn't out in the States yet, maybe they're actually planning to fix these things. If it wasn't for the amazing email capabilities, i'd go back to the iPhone 3G in a heartbeat"

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Vasco Névoa
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 11:58 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience


I can see there are at least 2 distinct types of user of OM:
A - "I need a working phone now, the uber-cool PDA stuff can wait";
B - "OM is a groundbreaking project, I don't care about telephony,  
let's press the revolution!"
As much as I am divided among the two views, I think OM must oblige to  
its responsibility towards the users who have paid for their hardware,  
and keep its promise of a working phone.

I don't think that making the core system work (including a little  
hacking of the Qtopia stuff) is a waste of time; any insight that is  
gained here can immediately be applied to FSO. OM2008.x will simply  
serve as a real-world testbed (one that is everyday usable!). When FSO  
comes along, it will already have the necessary corrections...


Citando Didier Raboud <[hidden email]>:

> Vasco Névoa wrote:
>
>>
>> I agree with you partly; the main efforts should go into getting the
>> new framework out - *as long as it runs on a rock-solid core system*.
>> So I support the idea of accelerating the FSO integration... but in
>> the meantime people have to use the sucking Qtopia ware in their
>> everyday life, because there is no realistic alternative. FSO is still
>> very incomplete at the user level.
>>
>> Today, the "complete" system is not reliable and the reliable system
>> is not complete at all.
>>
>> If you fix the core and qtopia now, everybody gets a working phone,
>> and FSO gets a more reliable development core. You favor the users,
>> which are the noisier people. ;)
>> If you jump start FSO into main distro, there will still not exist a
>> complete system that can be used everyday. You favor the developers,
>> who could wait a little more (but not long!) and ARE ALSO USERS.
>>
>> So please just make it work solidly, and then integrate FSO. :)
>
> Well... I would rather let a bit more freedom to the team :
>
> if you (as in "the team which will make the iFoan obsolete") think that
> breaking useability or functionality or anything else could serve the
> cause : do it !
>
> Please decide your roadmap and make it public !
>
> I (personnally) don't care if I am not able to use my Neo as a phone (and
> anything else possible) for 2-3-4-5 months : I have a working phone. BUT,
> what I would like to know is _when_  I will get _what_ functionality.
>
> I you think that breaking the whole stuff for a moment will serve a precise
> goal, please do it !
>
> Regards,
>
> OdyX
> --
> Swisslinux.org - Le carrefour GNU/Linux en Suisse -
> http://www.swisslinux.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


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Didier Raboud

Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience

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Christ van Willegen wrote:

> Perhaps another idea to lighten the core developers' load...
>
> Invest a little time (a day or so?) to properly set up a VMWare image
> that can be downloaded by developers that want to help in any way.
>
> Make it easy to update sources, and easy to build both kernel and
> userland stuff, and also to report patches. This way, developers don't
> need to invest loads of time into setting up stuff, if it can be done
> in one fell swoop.
>
> I, for one, would love to be able to run a VMWare image and dive into
> developing and debugging/enhancing.
>
> Christ van Willegen

s/VMWare/qemu (or kvm)/g

qemu is "more free" in my opinion... ;)

Regards,

OdyX

--
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http://www.swisslinux.org


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Mark Weinem

Re: PIM software (was: Back to the basics: improving user experience)

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In reply to this post by arne anka
Am Freitag 17 Oktober 2008 14:13:28 schrieb arne anka:
> >> Did a quick google but couldnt figure out what it uses as storage.
> >> Hopefully not a relational database - they have their uses and qtopia
> >> has conclusively proven this is *NOT* it :)
> >
> > Yes, the do indeed use MySQL!
>
> well, if it is supposed to be a part of kde, the use case is clearly a
> desktop computer.
> i don't think it would fit a small thing like the neo.

would be great if the KDE guys develop their system beyond the obsolete
"Desktop"- my sister for example uses a mini netbook as her main desktop
machine. Desktop systems should be equally usable and funcional  on small
devices as on powerful machines.


Greetings, Mark  

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Marijn Kruisselbrink

Re: PIM software (was: Back to the basics: improving user experience)

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On Friday 17 October 2008 14:43:06 Mark Weinem wrote:

> Am Freitag 17 Oktober 2008 14:13:28 schrieb arne anka:
> > >> Did a quick google but couldnt figure out what it uses as storage.
> > >> Hopefully not a relational database - they have their uses and qtopia
> > >> has conclusively proven this is *NOT* it :)
> > >
> > > Yes, the do indeed use MySQL!
> >
> > well, if it is supposed to be a part of kde, the use case is clearly a
> > desktop computer.
> > i don't think it would fit a small thing like the neo.
>
> would be great if the KDE guys develop their system beyond the obsolete
> "Desktop"- my sister for example uses a mini netbook as her main desktop
> machine. Desktop systems should be equally usable and funcional  on small
> devices as on powerful machines.
And fortunately that is exaclty what some of us are working on. As part of
this years google summer of code I've done some initial work on running kde
on really small devices (openmoko neo1973 (too slow), freerunner (quite
acceptable), and nokia n810 (similar to freerunner)). Of course speed and
memory usage aren't the only problems, a much bigger problem is adapting the
user interface to work well on small screens, but there is also some work
going on in that area.
About akonadi, I don't think mysql is the only available storage backend, and
the main reasons they chose it as the default after evaluation several
options aren't really valid on small devices anyway (problems with concurrent
access/transactions/... I think, which shouldn't happen as much on a small
device as on a powerful computer).

Marijn Kruisselbrink

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