18 Things I Wish Were True About Plone

[yvesm]

Martin Aspeli a écrit :

> Time time time time time.

AKA "money, money, money", the old saying goes.  That's it, I got a Pink Floyd tune ringing in my head now :-)

Yves


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[Wichert Akkerman]

Previously Moisan Yves wrote:
> Martin Aspeli a écrit :
>
> > Time time time time time.
>
> AKA "money, money, money", the old saying goes.  That's it, I got a
> Pink Floyd tune ringing in my head now :-)

I recommend immediate therapy - that can't be good for you.

Wichert.

--
Wichert Akkerman <[hidden email]>    It is simple to make things.
http://www.wiggy.net/                   It is hard to make things simple.

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[Ricardo Newbery-2]

On Feb 6, 2008, at 5:54 AM, Dylan Jay wrote:

> 3. or perhaps just developers can create their own favourite stack to
> indicate the products they use regularly.


Ooo... it would be nice if we had our own http://iusethis.com

Ric





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[Matthew Wilkes]

>> I know this is possibly contraversial but has anyone suggested that
>> plone.org doesn't eat its own dog food and use the default plone  
>> theme?
>> Plone default is good generic theme for building other designs on  
>> but it
>> doesn't show off just how slick a plone site can look. Plone.net  
>> looks
>> great but most people will get sent to plone.org.
>
> This is very high on Alex's list. We want to have a better theme  
> there,
> probably based on NuPlone but jazzed up a bit. Time time time time  
> time.

Danger Will Robinson!  The current Plone default theme is a bit old  
fashioned but it's much nicer than NuPlone imho.  Too blocky and not  
the usability isn't good on large sites.  I'm a big fan of  
plonetheme.pizza – unfinished as it is, perhaps that could be brought  
into service in some fashion?

Matt
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[Dylan Jay-3]

Martin Aspeli wrote:

> Hi Paul,
>
>>> I am not sure if this is really about product or platform. I'd think the
>>> decision which technology to use is not about whether Plone is this or
>>> that but what you want to do with it later on.
>> CMSWire apparently thinks Plone is content management specializing in
>> web publishing.  They apparently got it wrong. :^)  Whatever we decide
>> that Plone-the-product is supposed to be excellent at out-of-the-box,
>> people are going to want to do other things with it.
>
> I think it's important that we make a distinction here. Being this kind
> of hybrid that gives you a usable product out of the box, and which is
> also infinitely customisable and extensible *is* what we're good at.
> It's what sets us apart. We can't really start doing one at the expense
> of the other, since people who want *just* a framework will use
> something simpler, say Grok, and people who *just* want a product will
> only use Plone then if the feature set is 100% what they want, which is
> likely to be a smaller market than what we have currently.
>
> As you so elequantly blogged though, we just need to make sure our
> outward marketing story is right, and maybe give the framework and the
> product slightly different names/brands.

If we sell as a web publishing CMS we try to convince them that Plone is
future proof because it will handle all future needs without replacement
but that's not a strong story. Instead we trying to attract the kind of
clients need Plone the ECM. If we could increase Plones reputation in
that area I think that would be a huge win. Seperate plone brands would
be a great step in that direction.

This is exactly the conclusion we've come to with our recent changes in
marketting of our plone consultancy business PretaWeb (not yet reflected
in the website). Plone has the inbuilt power and the customisability to
compete in the enterprise space where customers have more varied
requirements. They want process automation, workflow and sometimes they
want it combined with more traditional relational database type apps but
sometimes its combined more document repository aspects.
We did a project for company that had some ideas about a knowledge base
that combined documents, discussions and records in ways that allowed
anything to be linked to anything. No other relational vender could
offer that to them and we could say yes to everything with confidence.

But if Plone is marketed as a web publishing CMS then most people would
have no idea of that hidden power. And whats worse, my assesment is its
losing to Joomla and it's php friends because they seem to be attracting
more people with design skills so they look slicker and the hosting
story is better.


Dylan


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[Dylan Jay-3]

Dylan Jay wrote:

> Martin Aspeli wrote:
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>>>> I am not sure if this is really about product or platform. I'd think the
>>>> decision which technology to use is not about whether Plone is this or
>>>> that but what you want to do with it later on.
>>> CMSWire apparently thinks Plone is content management specializing in
>>> web publishing.  They apparently got it wrong. :^)  Whatever we decide
>>> that Plone-the-product is supposed to be excellent at out-of-the-box,
>>> people are going to want to do other things with it.
>> I think it's important that we make a distinction here. Being this kind
>> of hybrid that gives you a usable product out of the box, and which is
>> also infinitely customisable and extensible *is* what we're good at.
>> It's what sets us apart. We can't really start doing one at the expense
>> of the other, since people who want *just* a framework will use
>> something simpler, say Grok, and people who *just* want a product will
>> only use Plone then if the feature set is 100% what they want, which is
>> likely to be a smaller market than what we have currently.
>>
>> As you so elequantly blogged though, we just need to make sure our
>> outward marketing story is right, and maybe give the framework and the
>> product slightly different names/brands.
>
>
> If we sell as a web publishing CMS we try to convince them that Plone is
> future proof because it will handle all future needs without replacement
> but that's not a strong story. Instead we trying to attract the kind of
> clients need Plone the ECM. If we could increase Plones reputation in
> that area I think that would be a huge win. Seperate plone brands would
> be a great step in that direction.
>
> This is exactly the conclusion we've come to with our recent changes in
> marketting of our plone consultancy business PretaWeb (not yet reflected
> in the website). Plone has the inbuilt power and the customisability to
> compete in the enterprise space where customers have more varied
> requirements. They want process automation, workflow and sometimes they
> want it combined with more traditional relational database type apps but
> sometimes its combined more document repository aspects.
> We did a project for company that had some ideas about a knowledge base
> that combined documents, discussions and records in ways that allowed
> anything to be linked to anything. No other relational vender could
> offer that to them and we could say yes to everything with confidence.
>
> But if Plone is marketed as a web publishing CMS then most people would
> have no idea of that hidden power. And whats worse, my assesment is its
> losing to Joomla and it's php friends because they seem to be attracting
> more people with design skills so they look slicker and the hosting
> story is better.

Here is a perfect example from a comparison of open source ECMs in which
  Plone scores below Alfresco.

"Plone does one thing -- Web content management -- and does it with
aplomb. That's why you'll find well-known US and international
organizations in most industries running their Web sites, internets, and
extranets with Plone."

http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;421589662;pp;6

Should Plone be trying to compete with Alfresco?

Dylan





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[Martin Aspeli-2]

Dylan Jay wrote:

> Here is a perfect example from a comparison of open source ECMs in which
>   Plone scores below Alfresco.
>
> "Plone does one thing -- Web content management -- and does it with
> aplomb. That's why you'll find well-known US and international
> organizations in most industries running their Web sites, internets, and
> extranets with Plone."
>
> http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;421589662;pp;6
>
> Should Plone be trying to compete with Alfresco?

Yes, but not for all use cases or markets. :)

Martin

--
Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book


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[Dylan Jay-3]

Ricardo Newbery wrote:
> On Feb 6, 2008, at 5:54 AM, Dylan Jay wrote:
>
>> 3. or perhaps just developers can create their own favourite stack to
>> indicate the products they use regularly.
>
>
> Ooo... it would be nice if we had our own http://iusethis.com

Actually I was thinking more like
http://www.ohloh.net/projects/70/stacks?page=2&sort=created_at_reverse

Their model is one stack per developer but for me each site is different
   and has its own stack. It could be like a mini case study tool where
developers can give a mini review of why they chose that stack of
plugins. As a bonus that promotes teh site and promotes the developer
and the community gets a more accurate picture of which Products are
good enough to use. Testing Products for quality takes me forever.

Dylan.



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[Dylan Jay-3]

Martin Aspeli wrote:

> Dylan Jay wrote:
>
>> Here is a perfect example from a comparison of open source ECMs in which
>>   Plone scores below Alfresco.
>>
>> "Plone does one thing -- Web content management -- and does it with
>> aplomb. That's why you'll find well-known US and international
>> organizations in most industries running their Web sites, internets, and
>> extranets with Plone."
>>
>> http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;421589662;pp;6
>>
>> Should Plone be trying to compete with Alfresco?
>
> Yes, but not for all use cases or markets. :)

So how can I help in promoting Plone as a competitor to sharepoint and
alfresco?


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[Ricardo Newbery-2]

On Feb 7, 2008, at 4:38 AM, Dylan Jay wrote:

> Ricardo Newbery wrote:
>> On Feb 6, 2008, at 5:54 AM, Dylan Jay wrote:
>>
>>> 3. or perhaps just developers can create their own favourite stack  
>>> to
>>> indicate the products they use regularly.
>>
>>
>> Ooo... it would be nice if we had our own http://iusethis.com
>
> Actually I was thinking more like
> http://www.ohloh.net/projects/70/stacks?page=2&sort=created_at_reverse
>
> Their model is one stack per developer but for me each site is  
> different
>   and has its own stack. It could be like a mini case study tool where
> developers can give a mini review of why they chose that stack of
> plugins. As a bonus that promotes teh site and promotes the developer
> and the community gets a more accurate picture of which Products are
> good enough to use. Testing Products for quality takes me forever.
>
> Dylan.

Hmm... not sure about a per site stack.

Suppose we make this easy and add an optional checkmark in the plone  
control panel that "calls home" and sends the site url, some  
descriptive text, and a list of installed products.  What about the  
security implications?  If a security exploit is discovered in a  
product, it would make it easy for a bad hat to find a bunch of  
vulnerable sites.

On the flip side, something like this might also make it easier to  
notify participating site owners when exploits are discovered or new  
versions of their products are released.  And argument can be made  
that it would probably be better if the site could just anonymously  
subscribe to a "Plone notices & product updates" rss feed but then you  
would loose the data collection opportunity.

Like I said, I'm not sure about this.  I'm leaning in favor of a non-
automated per-user stack.

Ric


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[Dylan Jay-3]

Ricardo Newbery wrote:

> On Feb 7, 2008, at 4:38 AM, Dylan Jay wrote:
>
>> Ricardo Newbery wrote:
>>> On Feb 6, 2008, at 5:54 AM, Dylan Jay wrote:
>>>
>>>> 3. or perhaps just developers can create their own favourite stack  
>>>> to
>>>> indicate the products they use regularly.
>>>
>>> Ooo... it would be nice if we had our own http://iusethis.com
>> Actually I was thinking more like
>> http://www.ohloh.net/projects/70/stacks?page=2&sort=created_at_reverse
>>
>> Their model is one stack per developer but for me each site is  
>> different
>>   and has its own stack. It could be like a mini case study tool where
>> developers can give a mini review of why they chose that stack of
>> plugins. As a bonus that promotes teh site and promotes the developer
>> and the community gets a more accurate picture of which Products are
>> good enough to use. Testing Products for quality takes me forever.
>>
>> Dylan.
>
>
> Hmm... not sure about a per site stack.
>
> Suppose we make this easy and add an optional checkmark in the plone  
> control panel that "calls home" and sends the site url, some  
> descriptive text, and a list of installed products.  What about the  
> security implications?  If a security exploit is discovered in a  
> product, it would make it easy for a bad hat to find a bunch of  
> vulnerable sites.

If it was call-home and we don't publish the site url then there is no
security problem right? e.g could show "#sites product is used on",
and/or "products used on site #45454".

> On the flip side, something like this might also make it easier to  
> notify participating site owners when exploits are discovered or new  
> versions of their products are released.  And argument can be made  
> that it would probably be better if the site could just anonymously  
> subscribe to a "Plone notices & product updates" rss feed but then you  
> would loose the data collection opportunity.

its pretty common these days for software to ask during install if the
software can send anonymous statistics back to help improve the product.
This would be no different.

> Like I said, I'm not sure about this.  I'm leaning in favor of a non-
> automated per-user stack.

I'd like to see which products got chosen over others and why, to help
me narrow down my choice. An automated way is good. Or perhaps we just
need product shoot-outs where people like me write our evaluation of
products for certain purposes. For instance I'm trying to work out my
options for a pay for membership database. Where would be the best place
  to write that up.

Dylan.


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[Martin Aspeli-2]

Dylan Jay wrote:

> Martin Aspeli wrote:
>> Dylan Jay wrote:
>>
>>> Here is a perfect example from a comparison of open source ECMs in which
>>>   Plone scores below Alfresco.
>>>
>>> "Plone does one thing -- Web content management -- and does it with
>>> aplomb. That's why you'll find well-known US and international
>>> organizations in most industries running their Web sites, internets, and
>>> extranets with Plone."
>>>
>>> http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;421589662;pp;6
>>>
>>> Should Plone be trying to compete with Alfresco?
>> Yes, but not for all use cases or markets. :)
>
> So how can I help in promoting Plone as a competitor to sharepoint and
> alfresco?

Please stay tuned. I think a lot of this will come out of the planning
summit. Mark Corum (officially the coolest new person I've met for a
while) is going to help us get this off the ground, hopefully.

Cheers,
Martin

--
Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book


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[Ricardo Newbery-2]

On Feb 7, 2008, at 7:32 PM, Dylan Jay wrote:

> Ricardo Newbery wrote:
>>
>> Hmm... not sure about a per site stack.
>>
>> Suppose we make this easy and add an optional checkmark in the plone
>> control panel that "calls home" and sends the site url, some
>> descriptive text, and a list of installed products.  What about the
>> security implications?  If a security exploit is discovered in a
>> product, it would make it easy for a bad hat to find a bunch of
>> vulnerable sites.
>
> If it was call-home and we don't publish the site url then there is no
> security problem right? e.g could show "#sites product is used on",
> and/or "products used on site #45454".

Sorry, now I'm confused.  Weren't you arguing in favor of the  
promotion payback for the participants?  Unless I'm missing something  
here, there is no promotion payback if this is anonymous.


>>
> its pretty common these days for software to ask during install if the
> software can send anonymous statistics back to help improve the  
> product.
> This would be no different.


Sure.  But now I think we're talking about a different animal.  I'm  
sure this sort of aggregated anonymous data is useful to someone...  
but not me.  Personally, I would be more interested in seeing the  
selection of products that say optilude or wiggy (just to name a few)  
think are cool.

But there's no reason why we can't have both... except maybe the  
volunteers to actually do it.  Would you like to volunteer?  ;-)

Ric




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[Encolpe Degoute-2]

Hello,
another duplicate message from
http://encolpe.wordpress.com/2008/02/07/my-participation-on-plone-4-threads/


--
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[Dylan Jay-3]

Ricardo Newbery wrote:

> On Feb 7, 2008, at 7:32 PM, Dylan Jay wrote:
>
>> Ricardo Newbery wrote:
>>> Hmm... not sure about a per site stack.
>>>
>>> Suppose we make this easy and add an optional checkmark in the plone
>>> control panel that "calls home" and sends the site url, some
>>> descriptive text, and a list of installed products.  What about the
>>> security implications?  If a security exploit is discovered in a
>>> product, it would make it easy for a bad hat to find a bunch of
>>> vulnerable sites.
>> If it was call-home and we don't publish the site url then there is no
>> security problem right? e.g could show "#sites product is used on",
>> and/or "products used on site #45454".
>
>
> Sorry, now I'm confused.  Weren't you arguing in favor of the  
> promotion payback for the participants?  Unless I'm missing something  
> here, there is no promotion payback if this is anonymous.

I'm not sure of the security implications but making it anonymous would
be a way to mitigate that. I personaly think the security problem is
minimal though.

>
>> its pretty common these days for software to ask during install if the
>> software can send anonymous statistics back to help improve the  
>> product.
>> This would be no different.
>
>
> Sure.  But now I think we're talking about a different animal.  I'm  
> sure this sort of aggregated anonymous data is useful to someone...  
> but not me.  Personally, I would be more interested in seeing the  
> selection of products that say optilude or wiggy (just to name a few)  
> think are cool.
>
> But there's no reason why we can't have both... except maybe the  
> volunteers to actually do it.  Would you like to volunteer?  ;-)

Sure why not, but whose in charge of plone.org and how to I get it up
there if I did develop it?


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[Ricardo Newbery-2]

On Feb 8, 2008, at 11:33 PM, Dylan Jay wrote:

> Ricardo Newbery wrote:
>> Sure.  But now I think we're talking about a different animal.  I'm
>> sure this sort of aggregated anonymous data is useful to someone...
>> but not me.  Personally, I would be more interested in seeing the
>> selection of products that say optilude or wiggy (just to name a few)
>> think are cool.
>>
>> But there's no reason why we can't have both... except maybe the
>> volunteers to actually do it.  Would you like to volunteer?  ;-)
>
> Sure why not, but whose in charge of plone.org and how to I get it up
> there if I did develop it?

AFAIK, there isn't just one person in charge of plone.org.  The folks  
to ask are on the plone-website list (http://plone.org/support/lists).

Ric






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[Tim Knapp]

On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 23:58 -0800, Ricardo Newbery wrote:

> On Feb 8, 2008, at 11:33 PM, Dylan Jay wrote:
>
> > Ricardo Newbery wrote:
> >> Sure.  But now I think we're talking about a different animal.  I'm
> >> sure this sort of aggregated anonymous data is useful to someone...
> >> but not me.  Personally, I would be more interested in seeing the
> >> selection of products that say optilude or wiggy (just to name a few)
> >> think are cool.
> >>
> >> But there's no reason why we can't have both... except maybe the
> >> volunteers to actually do it.  Would you like to volunteer?  ;-)
> >
> > Sure why not, but whose in charge of plone.org and how to I get it up
> > there if I did develop it?
>
>
> AFAIK, there isn't just one person in charge of plone.org.  The folks  
> to ask are on the plone-website list (http://plone.org/support/lists).

I've got a feeling it's Wichert (wiggy) as there was a comment in the
recent foundation board minutes[1] re. wiggy looking to appoint some
more people to help with looking after plone.org administration. Could
be great timing for this?

-Tim

[1]
http://plone.org/foundation/meetings/minutes/minutes-january-17-2008/

>
> Ric
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[Ricardo Newbery-2]

On Feb 9, 2008, at 1:57 AM, Tim Knapp wrote:

> On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 23:58 -0800, Ricardo Newbery wrote:
>> AFAIK, there isn't just one person in charge of plone.org.  The folks
>> to ask are on the plone-website list (http://plone.org/support/ 
>> lists).
>
> I've got a feeling it's Wichert (wiggy) as there was a comment in the
> recent foundation board minutes[1] re. wiggy looking to appoint some
> more people to help with looking after plone.org administration. Could
> be great timing for this?


I'm sure Wichert is the big fish but I think there may be a few more  
fish swimming in the plone-website pond.  :-)

Ric



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[Christian Scholz-2]

Hi!

If you read my blog you might have noticed that one of my main points is
that Social Networking/Media will have a more and more central role also
for companies in the future.

It seems that I am not alone with that assumption but instead Gartner
and the Drupal community are with me here:

http://jeffwhatcott.com/drupal/content/dormant-drupal-opportunity

Definitely a good read and it maybe also shows in which areas we are
somewhat lacking. It also discusses the term "CMS" which maybe does not
really fit tomorrow's world anymore.
OTOH is also shows the struggle for the team collaboration market. While
Plone might be good at managing content I guess Drupal is better in
terms of social components.


-- Christian



--
Christian Scholz                         video blog: http://comlounge.tv
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[Wichert Akkerman]

Previously Christian Scholz wrote:
> If you read my blog you might have noticed that one of my main points is
> that Social Networking/Media will have a more and more central role also
> for companies in the future.
>
> It seems that I am not alone with that assumption but instead Gartner
> and the Drupal community are with me here:
>
> http://jeffwhatcott.com/drupal/content/dormant-drupal-opportunity

I don't agree. Plone is a CMS: it is great at managing contentish
things. It is extensible which allows you to make it do some other
things as well, but in the end it is a CMS. It should not be a computing
fabric, it should not do unified communications and it is not a web
platform. The fact that Gartner lists something as important does not
mean that Plone has to do that. Social networking falls firmly in that
category in my opinion.

Now there are a few simple things we can do with Plone, or in a third
party product, that gives us what the core of social networking is.
Compare that with Ploneboard, which gives us the parts of a
forum that make sense for Plone without trying to turn into something it
is not.

Wichert.

--
Wichert Akkerman <[hidden email]>    It is simple to make things.
http://www.wiggy.net/                   It is hard to make things simple.

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